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Old 08-19-2011, 02:14 PM
James Langham James Langham is offline
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Default British 7th Armoured Brigade

Now that I am back from annual camp (having upset one of the staff at the Royal Armouries by knowing more about the Sten than she did), here is the first of the requested articles.

As ever nitpicks welcomed.
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Old 08-19-2011, 03:33 PM
95th Rifleman 95th Rifleman is offline
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James if you where a girl I'd kiss you!
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Old 08-21-2011, 03:31 AM
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Thanks, it's appreciated.

Nobody spot any errors this time? :-)
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:58 AM
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Good job - living in the North of Scotland it's nice to see Cock o' the North mentioned.

Just a couple of minor nitpicks...nothing major

Tidworth's in Wiltshire, not Yorkshire!

Also in your final order of battle you have 1st Bn, Queen's Dragoon Guards - as a Cavalry Regiment I don't think they would be classed as a Battalion? You've switched between the Queen's Dragoon Guards and the Royal Dragoon Guards a few times...is that a typo? Also, if you're using the Royal Dragoon Guards are you using a full post Options for Change order of battle?
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Old 08-21-2011, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Six View Post
Good job - living in the North of Scotland it's nice to see Cock o' the North mentioned.

Just a couple of minor nitpicks...nothing major

Tidworth's in Wiltshire, not Yorkshire!

Also in your final order of battle you have 1st Bn, Queen's Dragoon Guards - as a Cavalry Regiment I don't think they would be classed as a Battalion? You've switched between the Queen's Dragoon Guards and the Royal Dragoon Guards a few times...is that a typo? Also, if you're using the Royal Dragoon Guards are you using a full post Options for Change order of battle?
Tidworth was going to be Catterick but I changed it and missed the reference.

QDG I thank has Bns but I may be wrong - I'm an infantryman at heart...

All references should be QDG nor RDG - will correct.

Thanks for the input.
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Old 08-21-2011, 08:32 AM
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As always James, a joy to read....

But rap?!?! I chastise you SIR! Chastise I say!

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Old 08-21-2011, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Langham View Post
Tidworth was going to be Catterick but I changed it and missed the reference.

QDG I thank has Bns but I may be wrong - I'm an infantryman at heart...

All references should be QDG nor RDG - will correct.

Thanks for the input.
No probs - that all makes sense.

I'm fairly certain QDG is a single Regiment with the full title 1st The Queen's Dragoon Guards (and the nickname the Welsh Cavalry).
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Old 08-21-2011, 10:10 AM
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I have to back up Rainbow on this, it's definitely 1st The Queen's Dragoon Guards. All the RAC units are considered Regiments not Battalions (including The Royal Tank Regiment whose units actually were Battalions but picked up the Regiment Nomenclature officially after World War 2).

James, I think your shorts are great !! That's why I hate to be nit-picky but....
the 7th along with 4th & 20th Armoured Brigades were Armour Heavy, having 2 Armoured Regiments and 1 Armoured Infantry Bn. The 22nd Ard. Bde. had 2 each. However the BAOR seems to have constantly gone through reorganizations so ........Also the QDG's had settled into the Ard. Recce. role by the early eighties, however right after Options for Change they did re-role to Ard.

Hope this helps and keep up the good work.
Louie
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Old 08-21-2011, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by dragoon500ly View Post
As always James, a joy to read....

But rap?!?! I chastise you SIR! Chastise I say!

Unfortunately I couldn't work in a character who writes opera...

Blame Andy McNab's War Torn for the idea.
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Old 08-21-2011, 10:59 AM
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This thread has just reminded me that I think James Blunt would probably still have been a serving officer in the Life Guards during the Twilight War.

(Wiki link added for those who've never heard of him as I have no clue how popular James Blunt is - or isn't - outside the UK)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Blunt
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Old 08-21-2011, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Louied View Post
I have to back up Rainbow on this, it's definitely 1st The Queen's Dragoon Guards. All the RAC units are considered Regiments not Battalions (including The Royal Tank Regiment whose units actually were Battalions but picked up the Regiment Nomenclature officially after World War 2).

James, I think your shorts are great !! That's why I hate to be nit-picky but....
the 7th along with 4th & 20th Armoured Brigades were Armour Heavy, having 2 Armoured Regiments and 1 Armoured Infantry Bn. The 22nd Ard. Bde. had 2 each. However the BAOR seems to have constantly gone through reorganizations so ........Also the QDG's had settled into the Ard. Recce. role by the early eighties, however right after Options for Change they did re-role to Ard.

Hope this helps and keep up the good work.
Louie
Thanks - will change the designation.

Organisations are a nightmare, in 2003 (real life) 7th was 2 infantry and 2 armoured units. 2010 real life organisation (which I used as a starting point) was infantry heavy (1+3) and the Survivor's Guide was also infantry heavy (1+2). Given that there is no TA heavy armour I have assumed that some heavy armour was added to them (I need to sit and work out in detail where all British units are). I had re-rolled the QDG to armoured for the same reason (and they are that way in TW2000 - I try and stay as close as I can to canon).

I do appreciate the nit picking it improves the articles.
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Old 08-21-2011, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
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Organisations are a nightmare, in 2003 (real life) 7th was 2 infantry and 2 armoured units. 2010 real life organisation (which I used as a starting point) was infantry heavy (1+3) and the Survivor's Guide was also infantry heavy (1+2). Given that there is no TA heavy armour I have assumed that some heavy armour was added to them (I need to sit and work out in detail where all British units are). I had re-rolled the QDG to armoured for the same reason (and they are that way in TW2000 - I try and stay as close as I can to canon).
The Arms Plot system really doesn't help here...
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Old 08-21-2011, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Six View Post
This thread has just reminded me that I think James Blunt would probably still have been a serving officer in the Life Guards during the Twilight War.

(Wiki link added for those who've never heard of him as I have no clue how popular James Blunt is - or isn't - outside the UK)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Blunt
He actually made it into my background (although not named) based on his comments when he was interviewed about his time in the Army on Top Gear.

I will try and find the quote when I have chance.
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Old 08-21-2011, 11:56 AM
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Cracking work James, I also tracked down your article on the 44th Airborne Brigade which I have just finished reading.

One spelling error, you spelt fusiliers as 'fusileers' a couple of times.

One further thing you said you used the 2010 ORBAT as the starting off point rather than a Late 80's/early 90's ORBAT, why was this? I just enquired because you used the early 80's designation of medical regiments rather than field ambulances.

Whats next on the cards?
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Old 08-21-2011, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dude_uk View Post
Cracking work James, I also tracked down your article on the 44th Airborne Brigade which I have just finished reading.

One spelling error, you spelt fusiliers as 'fusileers' a couple of times.

One further thing you said you used the 2010 ORBAT as the starting off point rather than a Late 80's/early 90's ORBAT, why was this? I just enquired because you used the early 80's designation of medical regiments rather than field ambulances.

Whats next on the cards?
Will correct spelling errors on next draft - for some reason spelling checker did not pick it up.

I used the 2010 orbat simply as it was handy when I started!

Next I'm working on an article on British MBTs and variants (unless I find a short article to write as a break!).
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Old 08-21-2011, 12:24 PM
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Hey James,
Here are a couple of files that might help you
The first is from correspondence with the RAC Museum and the second is RAC deployments since 1948Planned Household Cavalry and RAC Deployment as at Jan 1992.doc

uk_armdregt_deploymentssince1948.pdf
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Old 08-21-2011, 01:04 PM
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Revised version - thanks for the comments. Still happy to add further changes if anyone else spots faults.
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Old 08-21-2011, 01:16 PM
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Really entertaining read. Very realistic and believable. Great work, James.
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Old 08-21-2011, 05:03 PM
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I noticed an ommision on the attached units list. A brigade tends to get an ADA battery attached. In '96 this would of most likely been a javelin LML battery which would of been replaced by a stormer battery carrying the starstreak HVM around the end of '97 beginning of '98.
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
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In '96 this would of most likely been a javelin LML battery which would of been replaced by a stormer battery carrying the starstreak HVM around the end of '97 beginning of '98.
Provided production post nuke could have made this possible. I'm sure a number of units would have been upgraded, but the newer weapons are likely to see service only around the front lines.
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Old 08-22-2011, 01:34 AM
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Provided production post nuke could have made this possible. I'm sure a number of units would have been upgraded, but the newer weapons are likely to see service only around the front lines.
The British army only had 2 armoured divisions in 96 (we are down to just one these days as most of the old tank regimenst have been either disbanded or converted to CVR(T)s). So I think both these divisons would get priority on equipment.

The infantry divisions would of gotten the cast offs, some may even end up with the old Blowpipes left over from the 80's.
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Old 08-22-2011, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman View Post
I noticed an ommision on the attached units list. A brigade tends to get an ADA battery attached. In '96 this would of most likely been a javelin LML battery which would of been replaced by a stormer battery carrying the starstreak HVM around the end of '97 beginning of '98.
I had assumed that these were at divisional level and attached as required. I'll have to look at 1st (UK) Armoured as a whole I think.
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:28 AM
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I had assumed that these were at divisional level and attached as required. I'll have to look at 1st (UK) Armoured as a whole I think.
ADA assets are attached at brigade level in the British army with each brigade assighned an ADA battery which is then assighned as needed by the Brigade commander.

British ADA is split into two catergories. You have the Rapiers which are used at higher level to defend HQ's, depots, fixed artillery and airfields.

The second catergory is the more portable SAMs used at brigade level for defence against low flying fixed wing aircraft and rotary wing aircraft. The British use the LML system (which is essentilay 3 shoulder-launched SAMs on a tripod). However it is also mounted on the Alvis Stormer which is the version used by the two brigades of 1st Armoured.

Back in the 80's we had Blowpipe ut that was replaced by the Javelin (no relation to the ATGM). In the late 90's Britain abandoned conventional heat seeking/radar guided systems for the Starstreak HMV which fires 3 high velocity darts and relies on kinetic rather than explosive force. They are guided via a laser beam fired from the launching platform (either the vehicle, LML or the shoulder launch unit).

Some of the confusion arises as an ADA regiment is assighned at divisonal level and then split up to be given to the Brigade before being chopped up further and assighned on to battlegroups. however they operate with the brigade and battlegroups and come under Brigade command.
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:55 AM
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Currently the 12th Regt RA handles Air defence for the brigades of the 1st Armoured (and 2nd armoured, our cost cutting is getting bad).

In the Gulf war 10 (Assaye) battery of the 36th Regt RA was assighned to the 7th Armoured Brigade (they had the javelin during the Gulf war).

I can't find info on which battery/regiment was assighned to the 7th in the late 90's.
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Old 08-22-2011, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Langham View Post
I had assumed that these were at divisional level and attached as required. I'll have to look at 1st (UK) Armoured as a whole I think.
I have a book at home (today is first day back at work after two weeks leave ) called BAOR: An Organisational History 1947 - 2004, which is extremely detailed down to Battalion level and including Signals, Logistics, etc, so can post a full orbat for the 1st (UK) Armoured when I get home later. RAC Regiments / Infantry Battalions would vary due to Arms Plotting but it would give an idea of what the Division would look like.
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Last edited by Rainbow Six; 08-22-2011 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 08-22-2011, 12:59 PM
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Source for this material (with the exception of the TA) is The British Army in Germany (BAOR and after): An Organisational History 1947 - 2004 by Graham Watson and Richard Rinaldi. RAC, RA, and Infantry Regts / Bns assigned at any given time varied due to Arms Plotting.

1st (UK) Armoured Division, 1989 - 1992

1st Armoured Division HQ and Signal Regiment - Verden

1 x Armd Recce Regt - Wolfenbuttel (CVR(T))

3 x Royal Artillery Field Regts - Hohne x 2 (1 x M109, 1 x Abbot), Osnabruck x 1 (M109); Osnabruck Regt assigned to Close Support 12th Armd Bde, Hohne Abbot Regt assigned to 22nd Armd Bde, Hohne M109 Regt assigned to 7th Arm Bde

10th Air Defence Battery RA - Hohne (Blowpipe)

21 Engineer Regt, RE (1, 4, 7 Field Sqns and 45 Field Support Sqn) - Nienburg

1st Regt Army Air Corps (651, 652, 661 Sqns) - Hildesheim

1st Armd Dvn Transport Regt (2, 4, 33 Sqns and 74 HQ Sqn) - Bunde (merged into 1st Regt RLC after Options For Change)

1st Ordnance Bn, RAOC - Location unknown (merged into 1st Regt RLC after Options For Change) (Location may have been Verden)

1st Armoured Dvn REME (7 and 12 Workshops REME) - Location unknown (merged into 1st Bn REME after Options For Change) (7 Workshop may have been at Fallingbostel and 12 at Osnabruck)

1st Armoured Dvn RAMC - Location unknown (May have been Hohne)

7th Armoured Brigade (2 x Armd Regts (MBT), 1 x Infantry Bn (Warrior))

HQ and 207 Signal Sqn - Soltau
1 x Armd Regt - Soltau
1 x Armd Regt - Hohne
1 x Inf Bn - Fallingbostel

7 Armd Bde would also be reinforced by one light role TA Bn (4th Battalion, Royal Green Jackets)

12th Armoured Brigade (1 x Armd Regt (MBT), 2 x Infantry Bn (Warrior))

HQ and 212 Signal Sqn - Osnabruck
1 x Armd Regt - Osnabruck
1 x Inf Bn - Osnabruck
1 x Inf Bn - Osnabruck

22nd Armoured Brigade (2 x Armd Regt (MBT), 2 x Infantry Bn (Warrior)

HQ and 201 Signal Sqn - Hohne
1 x Armd Regt - Hohne
1 x Armd Regt - Hohne
1 x Inf Bn - Fallingbostel
1 x Inf Bn - Celle

Several sources also state that the three TA Para Bns (4, 10, and 15 Para) would be assigned to 1st Armoured Dvn as Division Troops.

As best as I can tell the basic structure remained relatively unchanged until the end of 1992, when Options for Change caused major restructuring

Hope this helps...I think there would have been an RMP Provost Company as well but can't confirm which.
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Last edited by Rainbow Six; 08-22-2011 at 03:51 PM. Reason: Added probable locations for REME, RAOC, and RAMC
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Old 08-22-2011, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman View Post
I can't find info on which battery/regiment was assighned to the 7th in the late 90's.
I could only track down down one Regular Battery tasked for air defence for the entire 1st Division but there were a number of TA Air Defence Battalions which were definitely tasked with reinforcing BAOR in time of War so I think it's possible that one of them could have gone to each Division to provide additional ADA, although I can't confirm that 100%.
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Old 08-22-2011, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
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I could only track down down one Regular Battery tasked for air defence for the entire 1st Division but there were a number of TA Air Defence Battalions which were definitely tasked with reinforcing BAOR in time of War so I think it's possible that one of them could have gone to each Division to provide additional ADA, although I can't confirm that 100%.
Yeah, all i could find was pretty much the same. It seems that post-gulf war, the TA regiments where given the ADA role and apparently would be assighned to brigades on deployment.
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Old 08-22-2011, 03:56 PM
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Would any of our british members be willing to help me with an article i'm writing for my Twiligth 2000 project?

I need some help with describing the British Armed Forces in my setting, that instead of the drawdowns in 1992... the expansion of the Cold War had caused somewhat of an expansion. That including new military production industry (for domestic consumption and export to the other British Commonwealth of Nations members).

And once the war started, the recreation of the Home Guard as the Territorial Army was being moblilzed for deploment overseas to support an expanded Regular Army that saw many regiments that had been disbanded being reconstituted...

All the things I've found online has been kind of confusing, and i really would like someone who knows about the subject to help me with my writing so it's not so blantantly obvious that i have no idea what i'm talking about.
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Old 08-22-2011, 07:54 PM
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In 1989 there were three seperate AD Bty.'s, one to each Ard. Div. Each consisted of a Bty. HQ and three Troops each with two sections of six Javelin/Blowpipe launchers, for a total of 36 launchers & 36 Spartan APC's (personnel total was 5 officers & 131 OR's). Basically, equipment wise, making it almost a regiment without the overhead.
- 10 (Assaye) LAD Bty.
- 21 (Gibraltar 1779-83) LAD Bty.
- 46 LAD Bty. (Lloyd's Company)

Additionally there were four tracked Rapier Bty.'s of 12 Tracked Rapier fire units each (two Bty.'s each to the two Corps AD Rgt.'s) which in wartime would be assigned one to each Ard. Div plus one as a Corps Reserve.

Last edited by Louied; 08-22-2011 at 10:13 PM.
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