RPG Forums

Go Back   RPG Forums > Role Playing Game Section > Twilight 2000 Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-24-2012, 04:15 PM
Webstral's Avatar
Webstral Webstral is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North San Francisco Bay
Posts: 1,686
Default German Territorial Army

Does anybody have a listing of German Territorial Army units?
__________________
“We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-24-2012, 04:39 PM
Rainbow Six's Avatar
Rainbow Six Rainbow Six is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 1,383
Default

The attached is taken from the 1989 NATO order of battle posted on the tanket website. Unfortunately I don't know who the author(s) is (are) so am unable to give due credit.

Hope it helps.

Edit - uploaded slightly expanded version
Attached Images
File Type: pdf FRG Territorial Units.pdf (188.2 KB, 293 views)
__________________
A collection of articles written for the Twilight 2000 Role Playing Game

http://www.twilight2000files.com

Last edited by Rainbow Six; 03-24-2012 at 04:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-24-2012, 05:17 PM
Webstral's Avatar
Webstral Webstral is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North San Francisco Bay
Posts: 1,686
Default

Thanks, Rainbow. You know, about 15 minutes ago I remembered that I had downloaded that document a while back. Duh. Thanks for making the effort on my behalf.

My first glance shows a lot more than six brigades. The Territorial Army looks a lot more impressive than I had been led to believe by The Third World War. Perhaps there's a distinction between the Territorial Army in the NATO Order of Battle and the force General Sir John Hackett talks about in The Third World War. In any event, it appears that a very substantial German force could be sent to the southern part of the country (under Dutch command) to guard against any Pact mischief after Anglo-American-Canadian forces enter the fight in the DDR after 12/1/96.
__________________
“We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-24-2012, 09:22 PM
Webstral's Avatar
Webstral Webstral is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North San Francisco Bay
Posts: 1,686
Default

On further review, I've found a piece by an unknown author summarizing the organization of the West German Army on the eve of the Soviet-German War, 1996. In this document, the Territorial Army has been organized into six divisions (8th, 9th, 11th, 14th, 15th, and 16th Jaegar Divisions). I'm willing to go with this. Putting the three jaeger divisions of VI Ge Corps under SOUTHAG, under Dutch command after US forces move into the DDR, makes the inability of the Pact offensive in February 1997 to make headway.
__________________
“We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-24-2012, 11:31 PM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,391
Default

Why would such an apparently large and powerful German force be under Dutch command on German soil? As far as I know, the Dutch don't have what can be termed a large military, and most are conscripts from what I understand.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-25-2012, 01:53 AM
Targan's Avatar
Targan Targan is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,482
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Why would such an apparently large and powerful German force be under Dutch command on German soil?
I was going to ask the same question but I couldn't remember the details of Dutch command in Germany during the Twilight War and I didn't want to look stupid. LOL!
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-25-2012, 04:16 AM
Rainbow Six's Avatar
Rainbow Six Rainbow Six is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 1,383
Default

During the Cold War the Dutch Army mustered a full Corps (I Netherlands Corps), with three Divisions - 1st Mech, 4th Mech, and 5th (Reserve) Mech.

NATO Vehicle Guide (V2) has that Corps deployed to Germany in January 1997 (V1 may differ) and references both the 1st and 4th Divisions being involved in combat against the Italians (the 5th appears to have been held in reserve further north) so it's obviously in theatre.

Perhaps the Dutch had the only Corps Command in Southern Germany at the time of the Italian invasion and it may have made more sense to use the existing Dutch command structure rather than try and create a new German Corps whilst everything was kicking off?
__________________
A collection of articles written for the Twilight 2000 Role Playing Game

http://www.twilight2000files.com
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-25-2012, 12:17 PM
James Langham James Langham is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 735
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Six View Post
During the Cold War the Dutch Army mustered a full Corps (I Netherlands Corps), with three Divisions - 1st Mech, 4th Mech, and 5th (Reserve) Mech.

NATO Vehicle Guide (V2) has that Corps deployed to Germany in January 1997 (V1 may differ) and references both the 1st and 4th Divisions being involved in combat against the Italians (the 5th appears to have been held in reserve further north) so it's obviously in theatre.

Perhaps the Dutch had the only Corps Command in Southern Germany at the time of the Italian invasion and it may have made more sense to use the existing Dutch command structure rather than try and create a new German Corps whilst everything was kicking off?
That would make a lot of sense as NATO has to throw everything it has into the mix in short notice.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-25-2012, 04:29 PM
Webstral's Avatar
Webstral Webstral is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North San Francisco Bay
Posts: 1,686
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Why would such an apparently large and powerful German force be under Dutch command on German soil? As far as I know, the Dutch don't have what can be termed a large military, and most are conscripts from what I understand.
Large and powerful German forces have been under the command of foreign nationals for decades, as everyone here knows. As for the Dutch, I have hypothesized in the past that the Dutch get shifted south to cover the areas left uncovered by the Anglo-American co-invasion of the DDR. Someone has to, after all. Putting this force under Dutch command is at least half a political move. General Sir John Hackett creates a situation in which a new Southern Army Group (SOUTHAG) is formed in southern West Germany under the command of a French general. The French (and Italians, Greeks, and Belgians, Spain, and probably Portugal) pull out of NATO in response to the Anglo-American involvement in the invasion of the DDR. The Dutch and Danes stay in NATO, but they don't participate in operations in the DDR. Putting a Dutch general in command of SOUTHAG makes a [theoretically] positive statement of unity among the remaining NATO partners. Also, SACEUR rather hopes that the Dutch will be flattered by having a major command and therefore more likely to stick with the alliance and the strategy.

As we know from the v1 chronology, though, the Soviets the southern FRG. I have hypothesized in the past that the Soviets are aiming to inflict major casualties on the Dutch with the intent of so shaking Dutch public opinion that the Netherlands also drops out of NATO. The loss of a few divisions and a few squadrons of aircraft would mean a welcome, though not decisive, reduction in NATO combat power. The loss of Dutch ports on top of the loss of French and Belgian ports would be a real blow to the ability of the US and UK to support intensive combat operations on the Continent.
__________________
“We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-27-2012, 05:12 PM
boogiedowndonovan's Avatar
boogiedowndonovan boogiedowndonovan is offline
Activist Rules Lawyer
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: norcal
Posts: 309
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Six View Post
The attached is taken from the 1989 NATO order of battle posted on the tanket website. Unfortunately I don't know who the author(s) is (are) so am unable to give due credit.

Hope it helps.

Edit - uploaded slightly expanded version
The credits for the Germany section of the 1989 Nato orbat mention two tanknet handles BansheeOne and Major 66 and specifically mentions Rick Soeshima-Anders for the Territorial info. The orbat itself is up to version 8, originally created by Andy Johnson but since updated by Pat Callahan. Didn't Pat Callahan post here at one time?

It is an awesome document.

btw, it also contains information on Luftwaffe and Bundesmarine ground units which would probably be used as ground troops in T2k.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.