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Old 09-02-2009, 11:38 AM
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Default Alternative commercial shipping for T2K

I don’t want to talk about large shipping as I think we largely covered the subject. However, I don’t see any reason for the Twilight War to stop world shipping. He would change it more than put an end to it.

The Western (Modern) world would certainly find itself with the least seagoing capability as most people will find themselves lost without technologies. Still traditional fishermen and professional sailors could find their way around (at the time of T2K you would still find 10.000 traditional fishing ship in France alone).
This, on the other hand, would not be true in most of the world. Most of the world sailors didn’t and doesn’t have access to much technologies and the war would not really change anything for their daily life at sea. Many ship were and are still made without technology.

First, you’ll find several sailing ship in the Western World (fishing ships, leisure ships and vintage ships). Among them you’ll find several ship types in the Northern countries, along the US coast, in the Netherlands and England. Several will be pinnaces, yacht, ketch, pointu (Mediterranean)… Their size and capabilities will vary greatly but several should be capable of seagoing. With very little motor ships around they’ll soon become the lord of the seas again. What is described for the “Constitution” shouldn’t be an exception (outside it’s size). Of course, several of these ships will be destroyed but most are located in small ports and will escape the war.

Then, you’ll find several arabic sailing ship (sometimes motor ship) that are used in the Indian Ocean, in the Red Sea, in the Persian Gulf and in the Mediterranean for commercial shipping.
Among them, you’ll find Badans, Dhows, Sambuks…
They are capable of ocean travel and they are largely use for coastal shipping. In addition they are often built with no advanced technologies and little if any harbour facilities. They should see extensive use after the twilight war for commerce but also in the hand of pirates. Larger models such as the Baghla would be armed with ease and they would be capable of fairly long time on the high seas.

You’ll find also a large number of sailing ship in Asia with ships such as Junks, Praos, Sampans…A little more complex sometimes (the Junk) these ship will largely be around carrying good through various areas. In addition and unlike the Arabic models ships such as Junks are fully capable of going to the high sea.

Less well known in our regions you’ll find several type of ship built throughout Africa. However, despite limited high sea fishing, these ship will be more handy for coastal travel.

Of course, I’m not even talking of sailing ships in Latin America.

As a result, when canon states that international exchanges came to an end, it should be (IMO) a bit of an overstatement. Of course, international shipping as we know it disappeared but it must have been replaced by another form of more traditional shipping with piracy exploding. I think, that this can result in very interesting campaigns. When Jester made his campaign over Siberia, one of the main threats could have been Japanese, Korean and Russian small ships. Ship can cross the Channel on an almost daily bases. Shipping should remain well developped in the Mediterranean. Australia should have access to goods from all over South East Asia. Numerous ships should be travelling through the Carribean and along the American sea coasts... A sea captain willing to cross the Atlantic to pick up or bring operatives somewhere (or carrying sensitive cargoes even in small quantities) could make a huge fortune.
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Old 09-02-2009, 05:03 PM
dvyws dvyws is offline
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Default One step back, two steps forward

If we are going back to sailing ships, think of it as an opportunity rather than a problem. Back in the early eighties I spent some time on a ship which, among other things, carried mail. I remember talking to a representative of the US post office, who was checking on the loading, who made the interesting comment that surface mail across the Atlantic was atually quicker during the Napoleonic wars...

This wasn't a big, fast container ship to Europe, though - it was a small, slow general cargo boat to North Africa. We didn't have Satnav or GPS, or even Loran, but relied on sun and star sights with our sextants (and I remember on one occasion after a particularly cloudy Eastbound crossing rather nervously approaching Africa - or was it Europe, and how far away was it anyway - dead reckoning got that name for a reason!).

Depending on the time of year and the route you choose, the Atlantic can be crossed by surprisingly small boats/ships.

And wooden vessels can be VERY hard to pick up on radar, stealth sailing ships to land your special ops teams?
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Old 09-02-2009, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoender View Post
However, I don’t see any reason for the Twilight War to stop world shipping.
I don't think there is any reason. A couple of the books already mention trade such as you mentioned, including international. Small world trade/shipping does continue.
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Old 09-02-2009, 09:03 PM
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Something else to keep in mind is that there will still be boatyards capable of turning out yacht-size sailing craft in the West, and coastal fishing boats in the rest of the world. Quality timber, sails, rope, craftsmen, paint and so on... maybe those can be found, too. If one's in really good shape, and well-secured, they could try to expand themselves to making larger craft.

Someone that has the capability to assemble these can put themselves in good shape. I'm thinking the UBF and the Civgov brigade in southern New England. If they don't have this kind of stuff, some might be available farther north up the coast? Breaking into something like the Mystic Maritime Museum to grab plans might be a game.

IIRC, there is a Challenge article on sailing craft, with some stats. Somewhere in the low forties issues?
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Old 09-02-2009, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adm.Lee View Post
IIRC, there is a Challenge article on sailing craft, with some stats. Somewhere in the low forties issues?
Challenge issue 60, page 6 "Sailing: An Unofficial Variant". Includes a basic weather generation system and a variety of sail craft (large sailing yacht, racing yacht, fishing boat, lugger, interisland schooner, junk, training vessel and restored antique).
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Old 09-02-2009, 11:54 PM
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Plenty of references I didn't have and live experience.

Thanks people.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:50 AM
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Another example is in one of the American based modules. I can't remember which, but in the usual narrative "Getting there" it mentions a Brazilian schooner that trades along the eastern seaboard, carrying mostly timber or something. There might be some more info, but I can't recall.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:56 AM
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There is one vital thing that's been overlooked so far - skill.

Particularly in western countries, the skill to effectively pilot a sail driven boat has becoming increasingly rare. Most recreational "sailors" tend to use engines more than wind power.
Added to that, without high tech navigational aids such as GPS, many of these people will be restricted to "sailing" within sight of land.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Added to that, without high tech navigational aids such as GPS, many of these people will be restricted to "sailing" within sight of land.
True 'nuff. Accurate, modern charts would become very valuable.
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Old 09-03-2009, 12:34 PM
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I tatally agree with you Leg. Therefore, I think that third world sailors and traditional fishermen will find themselves with a tremendous advantage.

Something else will have to be manned again and that will be difficult and always realized on a very limited scale or so I think: find people to man lighthouses again.
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Old 09-07-2009, 08:16 AM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
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Problem with lighthouse on manning them, they would make themselves targets for marauders or pirates.
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Old 09-07-2009, 08:22 AM
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Anyone have a good source for information about these sailing style ships? I have been using the USS CONSTITUTION as a sample but I know there are many variations to those sailing ships.
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Old 09-07-2009, 11:07 AM
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Anyone have a good source for information about these sailing style ships? I have been using the USS CONSTITUTION as a sample but I know there are many variations to those sailing ships.
No real sources at the moment but here you'll find a list of the various ships that could have survived and that I could identify (country by country).

Brazil
- Cisne Branco
http://www.thebluecrab.com/Tallships/Cisne_Branco.html

Columbia
- Three Mast Gloria (military vessel but sorry I lack its ID number)

Denmark
- Dannebrog Yacht (not a sailing ship but an interisting vessel nonetheless).

France
- Frigate Hermione (currently being rebuilt by a private association)
http://www.hermione.com/en/
- Clipper Belem
http://www.fondationbelem.com/the_of...ship_belem.htm
- Duchesse Anne (not sailing anymore and sorry didn't find anything in english)
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchess..._carr%C3%A9%29

Germany
- A-60 Gorch Fock (Klasse 441)

Italy
- A5312 Amerigo Vespuci
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo...cci_%28ship%29
- A5311 Palinuro
- A5313 Stella Polare
- A5316 Corsaro II
- Italia...
http://www.marina.difesa.it/unita/scuola.asp

Japan
- Pre-dreadnaught battleship "Mikasa"

Russia
The ship belong to St Petersburg University and her name shoul be the "Mir"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STS_Mir

UK
- HMS Victory

USA
- Frigate Constitution
- Corvette Californian (Cutter?)
- WIX-327 Eagle (US coast guard)

Venezuela
- BE-11 Simon Bolivar

In addition, the last working steam yacht is harbored at Monaco (it belongs to a Belgian Billonaire's daughter but I don't know the name of the ship). A few drakkars are in sailing order in Norway (maned by crazy amateurs deserving respect)...

This is all I can do for now but I'm convinced that several more ships do exist. I just didn't do more research.
Here is the list given by Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ailing_vessels

However, a friend of mine is deeply involved in a huge forum on classical ships and I'll try to find it. This friend is currently overworked and I might need several weeks to come up with the information.
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Old 09-07-2009, 01:24 PM
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And the interesting wiki on Tall Ships (several articles on the subject and a good place to start). Good luck for further researches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_ship

As you'll notice, for several countries you'll find a fair number of such ships and I have no doubt (again) that several more are to be around. Their main advantage being that for their servicing, you don't need the advanced shipyard you have to maintain for mordern engine ships.

Several would have been destroyed but many would survive as they were not primary target. However, much will depend on the nukes and on what you can make up of these vessels.
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Old 09-07-2009, 05:18 PM
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Default The T2K Cornish Navy

Home page is here:
http://www.square-sail.com/


I like this ship in particular
http://www.square-sail.com/square_ri...s/phoenix.html

There's even a link to the local technical college
http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=304924
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Old 09-07-2009, 09:36 PM
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Here in Australia we have a sail training ship called the Leeuwin II which regularly visits my local port of Fremantle.

http://www.sailleeuwin.com/site/arti...about_main.htm

She is a three masted barquentine and I see no reason why she would not have survived the Twilight War. Interestingly you will see in the ship's specifications at that site I linked to that the ship is not a refurbished historic ship, it is a modern vessel built by Tenix Defence and has a steel hull and a teak deck.
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Targan View Post
Here in Australia we have a sail training ship called the Leeuwin II which regularly visits my local port of Fremantle.

http://www.sailleeuwin.com/site/arti...about_main.htm

She is a three masted barquentine and I see no reason why she would not have survived the Twilight War. Interestingly you will see in the ship's specifications at that site I linked to that the ship is not a refurbished historic ship, it is a modern vessel built by Tenix Defence and has a steel hull and a teak deck.
Thats why I chose not to list it. Except if I'm mistaken it was commissioned in 1989. Therefore, it could not be available to Australia if you follow v1.0 but it would be there if you follow v2.0.

I was sure you would not miss it Targ.
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:39 PM
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Here's one I plan on using if I ever get a chance:

http://www.tallshiprose.org/

There's such a myrad choice of vessel types I couldn't come up with a definative list. You can have a hull with the sails set one way and it's called this, change the sail plan and it's called that.

I've got about three different references I'm trying to convert into a simple rules system. I've got a very comprehensive article in an old Dragon Magazine, and downloaded "Corsair" for the d20 system, and "Ships and Sea Battles" for a system called 7th sea. But everything is giving me different stats, ie, the crew for a frigate is 100 in Corsair, 150 in Ships and Sea Battles, 120 from the Dragon article, and 450 for the Constitution in "Gateway to the Spanish Main.

Plus Targan was kind enough to send me the Challenge article, which i promptly lost when I got a new computer. I swear I had saved it to disk. And I might have....
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Old 09-09-2009, 02:48 AM
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We had the Tall Ships here in Belfast last month and I got a load of pics of them, although the weather was abysmal. I'll try and get a few up on here, there were a few mentioned in the thread that I saw when they were here. I'll try and get them up soon, although as I'm moving house again at the end of the month it might take a while....
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Old 09-28-2009, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
There is one vital thing that's been overlooked so far - skill.

Particularly in western countries, the skill to effectively pilot a sail driven boat has becoming increasingly rare. Most recreational "sailors" tend to use engines more than wind power.
Added to that, without high tech navigational aids such as GPS, many of these people will be restricted to "sailing" within sight of land.
I remembered that someone was adressing the problem of high tech navigational aids.

However, if the point is fair when it comes to recreational sailors, it becomes a non sense when talking of military commanders and officers sailing the high seas.

If you travel to the Indian ocean, most captain now how to use a tool name "Kamal" and designed for navigational aid. However, this is a limited tool and you can count that these captains from the Indian Ocean would not be able to run a boat outside of this ocean.

When, you talk about navy officers (civilian and military) they are still taught how to use a sextant. At least that is valid for the French Naval Academy but I'm convinced that this is equally valid for most western navies. Their knowledge might be a bit rusty but i'm convinced it will come back fast (navy officers are also the only one still largely knowing Morse code). After all the old sextant remain the only way to find out what your location is when your computer is failing you (computers running under microsoft they must be failing all the time. Minor failure for most of the time of course.)
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Old 09-28-2009, 05:27 AM
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Problem with lighthouse on manning them, they would make themselves targets for marauders or pirates.
Right for the one on land but not that right for the one at sea. Landing on the sea light house is tricky and most pirates would die trying. In addition, if you don't have what it take to blow it up and if the two or three guys in it have enough ammunitions, you don't have a chance to get on top.
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Old 09-28-2009, 05:39 AM
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Because the system I use for my T2King is derived from a low-fantasy, high realism mediaeval RPG there are a number of different skills characters in my campaign can use to navigate at sea. The obvious choice for most military characters is Navigation using modern (although not necessarily very high tech) techniques.The other is to use the original Harnmaster skill of Piloting which uses methods of navigation from before the time when you had accurate sea-borne clocks (and therefore couldn't accurately determine longitude).

Piloting uses techniques such as the use of rutters, books that professional pilots built up over their careers that contained all the sea lore, maps and navigational instructions that they had collected during their careers. It also involves the use of the sun, the stars, possibly a lodestone and/or compass to determine direction and also knowing the patterns of winds, waves and clouds to determine distance from land and underlying seabed features.

My brother's character in my campaign was a young US marine who was originally from American Samoa. His char gen was a blast because before he joined the USMC he led a fairly traditional Samoan lifestyle and was a very proficient sailor (using primative dugout canoes) and fisherman. He was also a reasonably successful smuggler as a teenager. He was easily the equal of the USN characters in my campaign when it came to getting around on the ocean.
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Last edited by Targan; 09-28-2009 at 05:48 AM.
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