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Old 09-22-2009, 09:18 PM
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Default Post-TDM Arms Manufacture

In doing research for a little side project, I came across this strange little late-WWII weapon...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturmgewehr_1-5

It's basically a fairly crude, semi-automatic rifle that fires the same cartridge, from the same magazine, used in the better known and overall more advanced Sturmgewehr 44 (a precursor of the original AK-47).

... and it got me to thinking about arms and ammunition manufacturing after the TDM. I've also been following the thread on bows and arrows and blunderbusses and that's not quite what I have in mind.

What other examples of simple, military grade weapons are out there? Canon already has the M-16EZ and the RL AR-15 is a similar concept. I'm looking for things that can be made in damaged factories, small machine shops, garages, and the like- weapons that are simpler and require less hi-tech materials than current, standard issue weapons but that could/would still be issued to military, paramilitary/militia units. I'm not talking single-shot zip gun type weapons. Somewhere in between an M-16A2 and a zip gun is what I'm looking for.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:05 PM
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It is so simple!

I am thinking SIMPLE technology!

For rifles I am going to go with at least in the US these two:

AR-180 or AR-18, a weapon made as a cheap replacement for the M16, it is a stamped reciever, with internals similiar to the AK. Easily made, the hardest part the Barrel, but then again with a plethora of M16 barrels available it would be a great problem.

Miini 14 by Ruger. This is a simple robust weapon that is common in the US, and it is did I say, SIMPLE!! It has a gas design similiar to the M1 Garand or the M-14 or the FN, it is of carbine length, light, fires the 5.56 cartridge and really pretty simple. I love mine! It is not a precision piece that the 16 is, but it will do the job out to 300m. And it is alot more forgiving to dirt, dust, carbon buildup and lack of cleaning. Oh yeah it also uses military ammo and it also can be had in the AK 7.62 round too. And it has a bunch of military type accessories which make it freaky cool too!

SMGs

MAC 10/11 series!

They are small, they are blowback, they are SMALL <meaning less parts and metal> a barrel, a reciever, a trigger group and a magazine and you have a weapon! The reciever is stamped metal, the trigger is the major portion really. These in my T2K world are one of the most common weapons a favored of the New Americans.

M3 Grease Guns; a simple SMG not as simple as the MAC types but almost. These are liberaly issued to MilGov and some CivGov domestic forces. A simple weapon firing a common .45 cartridge. And it was the cool weapon in all of the old movies like "The Dirty Dozen" so there would be a familiarity.

A bolt action rifle, akin to the Mauser or 03 but much cruder of course is going to be common having been made in alot of smaller shops.

Pistols, eh, I don't give them alot of thought. They for what they give verses the cost to make in terms of manpower and materials aren't worth it.

And for machineguns! I would think a simple recoil operated machinegun, and something magazine fed as well, or maybe clip fed or even hopper fed. This will save on links. But, something like the Bren would be a good design, or a LEWIS or a old Maxin/1919 Browing design with a feed system using a hopper or magazine, since they are recoil operated and strong designs. Or, if you could come up with the old style fabric belts that you could reload then that would work too.

I can also see the following weapons also being made:

Single and double barrel shotguns being made, these are perfect for untrained militia. The aiming is forgiving. And a simple breachloading design is easy and simple to reload. Amo is simple to reload.

A single shot rifle either break action like a shotgun, or a rolling block action like a remington rolling block or the Martini Henry would be simple and make a decent easily made weapon for a low tech society.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:22 PM
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I agree with most of Jester's suggestions but not all of them, definitely the AR-18 would be a good prospect as it was designed for manufacture in simple machineshops.
The M3 SMG is not such a good choice as it required some intensive lathing to produce the bolt and a lot of other machining was required for other parts. A more easily constructed SMG than the M3 is the Plumber's Nightmare AKA the Sten Gun, able to be made in a home workshop as evidenced by the numbers made by Resistance members in German occupied countries during WW2.
However, google for Chechen homemade guns and see what can be done with minimal equipment.

Last edited by StainlessSteelCynic; 09-23-2009 at 03:01 AM. Reason: Fixing an appalling spelling mistake, I doubt anyone used a plumer's anything during the war...
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jester View Post
It is not a precision piece that the 16 is...
Not sure if I should take that as sarcasm or feel sorry you've never had your hands on anything truely accurate!

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Old 09-23-2009, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Not sure if I should take that as sarcasm or feel sorry you've never had your hands on anything truely accurate!

I was stating it as fact. The mini 14 isn't the precision weapon the 16 is. The rifling and sights just aren't as robust. However, it is accurate enough out to 300m to be effective.

As for precision, I have a Savage "beanfield" rifle <heavy barrel> in .300 Wing Mag, alas the weapon has better ability for accuracy than I can be accurate, but I can still put most rounds on target at 500m with my garand.

Speaking of which, I need to go to the range, its been far to long
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Old 09-23-2009, 10:15 AM
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Loompanics, when it was still in operation, had a plethora of books on garage manufacture of firearms, in addition to explosives and just about every other sruvivalist topic one could imagine. Paladin Press has taken over some of the titles, of not all. If one has the proper tools, functional weapons can be manufactured on a very low scale. If one has some gunsmithing gear, some very serviceable weapons can be crafted.

It seems to me that the real tricks in the post-Exchange world are mass production, reliability of the weapons produced, and safety of the workers. It's all well and good to produce a highly accurate bolt action rifle, but if the gunsmith can only make a dozen a year he isn't paying his way in the Twilight: 2000 world. Similarly, one can't have Wojo factories everywhere. Lastly, it's possible quickly to make firearms that will function for a short time but give out at the wrong time. Then there's the matter of proper raw materials.

Properly equipped gunsmiths will be worth ten times their weight in aviation fuel in 2000.

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Old 09-23-2009, 10:24 AM
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I shot the AC556 a few times years ago when it was the standard police longarm over here. Liked it a lot. Plus it was the 'A-Team' weapon of choice. Doesn't come much higher recommended than that
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Old 09-23-2009, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK View Post
Plus it was the 'A-Team' weapon of choice. Doesn't come much higher recommended than that
Er, doesn't that make it one of the most ineffective weapons ever produced given that for all the rounds they fired they never seemed to manage to hit anyone never mind kill them?
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Old 09-23-2009, 11:27 AM
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These weapons were built in Poland during the occupation. I figure if they can be mass produced with an occupying army keeping an eye on the population and resources, they might be suitable for T2k.

Błyskawica submachine gun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C5%82...submachine_gun

KIS Machine Pistol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIS_(weapon)

Filipinka Hand Grenade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipinka

Sidolówka Hand Grenade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidol%C3%B3wka
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Six View Post
Er, doesn't that make it one of the most ineffective weapons ever produced given that for all the rounds they fired they never seemed to manage to hit anyone never mind kill them?
But they did have them loaded with rubber seeking rounds for blowing out the bad guys tyres :-)
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Old 09-24-2009, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Er, doesn't that make it one of the most ineffective weapons ever produced given that for all the rounds they fired they never seemed to manage to hit anyone never mind kill them?
To be fair to the A-Team, they were in trouble for crime they were framed for. Had they actually killed someone while on a job, they'd be on the hook for murder.


ON topic, guns in the US shouldn't be to hard to find. I would think the same for Europe. While there may not be as many civilian weapons in Europe, there would be plenty of military weapons. I'd be much more focused on making ammo.
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Old 09-25-2009, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Six View Post
Er, doesn't that make it one of the most ineffective weapons ever produced given that for all the rounds they fired they never seemed to manage to hit anyone never mind kill them?
They prefered to use scare tactics.. aim to miss and scare the bad guys..
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Old 09-25-2009, 02:54 PM
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Hey! Quit your jibber jabber! There's no need to diss the A-Team.
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Old 09-25-2009, 03:45 PM
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Default meanwhile back ON topic again..

..the A-Team were busy springing the looney helicopter pilot when they suddenly became aware that someone was using them to hi jack at hread..furious B.A roared "FOOL!" .But Hannibal only guaffed ..What was a little thread jacking as long they never did get to the bottom of who framed them..

the end

anyways-

try googling Mr Luty and expedient homemade guns ,british standard gun etc

you should come up with a few rather easily made types of firearms made fromfreely available stuff that could be good to go in game settings..

found the link again

http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO...m/index-2.html

otherwise -what Fusilier said is absolutely most practical .Rifle barrels need to withstand a lot of pressure.Making one that is light enough to carry around isnt in my definition of simple technology .But we all have our own I guess.

Good old sten gun of course .The Russian PPsh-43 and the -41 to some extent . Maybe something using existing parts to build a standard gunlike the ppsh - 41 was made from old moisin nagant rifle barrels in the beginning.
(all of the above are on our V.2.0 sit eby the way )

Last edited by headquarters; 09-25-2009 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 09-26-2009, 10:09 AM
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Default MAT-49 and MAT-49/54

The MAT-49 and MAT-49/54; french sub-machine guns; used a machine stamping process which allowed the economical production of large numbers of submachine guns. I don't know much about machining, but think this means it could be made quickly and by just about any one with machining skills?



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Old 09-26-2009, 10:54 AM
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The difference is the following:

Machining is where you have large solid piece of metal. And you need to mill and drill and grind that piece of metal into the shape of what it is your are building.

An example most bolts are made through a milling process. Look at the grooves and holes and such. That is an example of machining.

Then we have forging; this is where the item is more or less build in a mold, some machining is normaly used after this process to finish the product.

Then stamping, this is nothing more than a piece of sheet metal and it is placed in a press. The press comes down "STAMPING" the part into the shape you are trying to get.

Some examples:

AKM uses a stamped reciver, the original AK47 used a Milled reciever.

M16 is forged with some milling

L1A1 forged with milling

Sten, Sterling, PPsH series stamped

M1a1 Thompson, milled
M1 Garand Milled
MP 38 Machined
MP40 stamped

MG 34 machined
MG 40 stamped

Most pistols are forged with some mill work done unless they are polymers of course.

Basicaly the stamped item is less robust, but it is also completed by a less skiller person with 1 action, the falling of a punch press. The press falls on the metal and "WHAM!" your part is made.

Forging, your metal needs to be really hot, you have to have tools, maybe a mold and then finish work.

Milling, there is ALOT of wastage, and you need alot of equipment machines and such and skiller people to operated them.

And the time involved as well.
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Old 09-26-2009, 01:02 PM
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Thanks for the explanation; That help a lot.
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:36 PM
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When I was still in Junior High, I acquired the plans for a Sten gun somewhere and actually managed to build one in my 8th Grade Metalshop class right under the nose of my (admittedly not very attentive) teacher.
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