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Old 05-22-2009, 01:40 AM
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Default My campaigns wartime platoon reorganization...

in my campaign the Battalion commander had carried out a major reorganization of his command. He condensed the basic platoon down as follows, and the Company was composed of four to five of these platoons. Company Headquarters Section contained the majority of the support assets that kept the company paperwork and maintenance going. When i can find the rest of the notes on the Battalion i'll be posting it on it's very own thread. This thread is to help me make the platoon reorganization better and more flexible.

Would the vehicles assigned to the platoon be a seperate section or an organic part of the individual platoon sections?


US Army Platoon Organization (emergency wartime organization):

Section One
2LT <name>, Platoon Commander
SGT <name>, Plt Cmdr Radio-Telephone Operator
SGT <name>, Combat Field Medic
SGT <name>, Fire Team Leader
SPC <name>, Grenadier
PFC <name>, Automatic Rifleman
PV2 <name>, Rifleman
SPC <name>, MG Gunner
PFC <name>, MG Assist. Gunner
PV2 <name>, MG Ammo Bearer
SPC <name>, Designated Marksman

Section Two
SFC <name>, Platoon Sergeant
SPC <name>, Plt Sgt Radio-Telephone Operator
SPC <name>, Combat Field Medic
SGT <name>, Fire Team Leader
SPC <name>, Grenadier
PFC <name>, Automatic Rifleman
PV2 <name>, Rifleman
SPC <name>, MG Gunner
PFC <name>, MG Assist. Gunner
PV2 <name>, MG Ammo Bearer
SPC <name>, Designated Marksman

Section Three
SSG <name>, Squad Leader
SPC <name>, Radio-Telephone Operator
SPC <name>, Combat Field Medic
SGT <name>, Fire Team Leader
SPC <name>, Grenadier
PFC <name>, Automatic Rifleman
PV2 <name>, Rifleman
SPC <name>, MG Gunner
PFC <name>, MG Assist. Gunner
PV2 <name>, MG Ammo Bearer
SPC <name>, Designated Marksman


Overwatch Recon & Sniper Section:
SGT <>, Spotter
SPC <>, Sniper
PFC <>, Flanker


Embedded Journalism / Combat Correspondent Section:
<name>, Field Correspondent
<name>, Cameraman
<name>, Producer *
<name>, Sound & Lighting Technician *



SPC <>, Anti-Armor Gunner
PFC <>, Anti-Armor Asst. Gunner
PV2 <>, Anti-Armor Ammo Bearer


SPC <>, Mortar Gunner
PFC <>, Mortar Asst. Gunner
PV2 <>, Mortar Ammo Handler
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Old 05-23-2009, 04:48 PM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
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Hmmm Looks to be a reinforced platoon. I don't ever remember our platoon having more than one medic, maybe a 2nd one from the aid station. Nice that the 2nd fire team are now MG teams assigned to each squad.

As for assigning vehicles.

If they are tracked or mounted then they should be assigned.

If they are used from transportation sub-unit and to only motorized, then no. In WWII many Infantry units were motorized, would be loaded in Duece and half and taken to predetermine distance behind the front and the troop would dismount and go to the front from there. Then the transportation would go back and get the next unit making it was up on foot.
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Old 05-24-2009, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull
Hmmm Looks to be a reinforced platoon. I don't ever remember our platoon having more than one medic, maybe a 2nd one from the aid station. Nice that the 2nd fire team are now MG teams assigned to each squad.

As for assigning vehicles.

If they are tracked or mounted then they should be assigned.

If they are used from transportation sub-unit and to only motorized, then no. In WWII many Infantry units were motorized, would be loaded in Duece and half and taken to predetermine distance behind the front and the troop would dismount and go to the front from there. Then the transportation would go back and get the next unit making it was up on foot.
Sounds good... I saw the reorganization of the divisions into a leaner more combat capable force as important, especially since support forces needed to be absorbed by combat forces to bring them as close to combat capable as possible. Thus the appearence of field training 'schools' that would create new riflemen or direct combat support (ie medics) for those who had moral objections to engaging in direct combat. I had felt this allowed platoons and their 'squads' to become as self-sufficient as possible during long range patrols (namely after seeing saving private ryan, and the make up of the group sent out to find PVT Ryan)...

I added a sniper overwatch & scout section with the three man composition since i had read that many nations have added a thrid position as 'flanker' to their sniper teams to protect the sniper and spotter whiel they where focused on their targets. I saw these overwatch/recon teams as perfect when supported by each of the designated marksman from the individual sections when they really needed to rip enemy positions with precision marksmanship and gunfire... i have thought of a section that would have a mortar team and anti-armor team... but i don't know. i need help with that aspect with advice from actual combat infantrymen who'd know if that would really make a platoon more self-sufficient or not.
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Old 05-24-2009, 03:09 PM
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Just a slight note: When I was in the Army, and you were a PV2 for more than a few months after arriving at your first unit, you were either pogue or you'd been demoted at some point. The T2K situation may alter things, but that's my two cents.

OT aside: I knew a guy who'd been demoted to E-none so many times that he took some blank name tag tape and made himself sew-on PV1 rank. (A PV1 has no stripes.) His superiors didn't think it was funny...
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Old 05-24-2009, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b
Just a slight note: When I was in the Army, and you were a PV2 for more than a few months after arriving at your first unit, you were either pogue or you'd been demoted at some point. The T2K situation may alter things, but that's my two cents.

OT aside: I knew a guy who'd been demoted to E-none so many times that he took some blank name tag tape and made himself sew-on PV1 rank. (A PV1 has no stripes.) His superiors didn't think it was funny...
ROFLOL! That's just too good! Reminds me of some really funny things when i was in as well.

I have a feeling that during the war the ranks of PVT and PV2 would be held by those draftees that where there 'just to fill in the ranks' as it where. Promotion to higher ranks would end up being career military or those draftees who would actually be damn good at their jobs.

Does anyone have suggestions about the Mortar and Anti-Armor assets being directly assigned to the platoon level with this reorganization that i'm using? Or does any have any suggestions for improving it? Or should I keep it the way it is?
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Old 05-24-2009, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natehale1971
Does anyone have suggestions about the Mortar and Anti-Armor assets being directly assigned to the platoon level with this reorganization that i'm using? Or does any have any suggestions for improving it? Or should I keep it the way it is?
We're (I'm guessing) talking about light infantry here, so the way we did it at the 82nd was that we had a 60mm mortar team attached to us from the Weapons Platoon, and everyone carried four rounds in addition to his normal gear. We also had a machinegun team attached to us (gunner and 2 A-gunners) that were part of the platoon. Antiarmor assets consisted of just about everyone carrying an M-136, and one squad member with a Dragon (these were pre-Javelin days) and two other troops carrying spare rounds. (I kept getting the Dragon in my younger days -- when I first got to the 82nd, I was the only one in the platoon with a C2 designator.) The TOW guys had HMMWVs with TOW launchers on them, and they scooted around as needed; the same as the 81mm mortar teams.
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Old 05-24-2009, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b
We're (I'm guessing) talking about light infantry here, so the way we did it at the 82nd was that we had a 60mm mortar team attached to us from the Weapons Platoon, and everyone carried four rounds in addition to his normal gear. We also had a machinegun team attached to us (gunner and 2 A-gunners) that were part of the platoon. Antiarmor assets consisted of just about everyone carrying an M-136, and one squad member with a Dragon (these were pre-Javelin days) and two other troops carrying spare rounds. (I kept getting the Dragon in my younger days -- when I first got to the 82nd, I was the only one in the platoon with a C2 designator.) The TOW guys had HMMWVs with TOW launchers on them, and they scooted around as needed; the same as the 81mm mortar teams.
THank you Paul,

I think I'll create a Heavy weapons section then, composed of a motar team, and anti-armor team... i'll spend some time thinking of how to set them up... hum... might be fun coming up with the two additional sections, or put the heavy weapons team with the platoon vehicle section, since they would be held in reserve carrying all the platoon equipment and supplies.
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Old 05-24-2009, 08:56 PM
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On thing you could do is take the MG team and make them a fire team which would be the anti-tank team of the squad. Then make the two AT teams into MG teams that could be attached to any section as needed.
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Old 05-24-2009, 08:57 PM
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Nate, your real name is Richard, isn't it?
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Old 05-24-2009, 10:01 PM
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Also as I remember to, I think by 2000 many of the enlisted would be holding the rank of E-4. Only Privates and Private First Class would be those who were busted recently, in many cases like in any war, they would receive their rank quickly back. Any E1, E2, or E3 one would encounter would be more than likely be a local recruit.
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Old 05-24-2009, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull
On thing you could do is take the MG team and make them a fire team which would be the anti-tank team of the squad. Then make the two AT teams into MG teams that could be attached to any section as needed.
That's a good point -- in the example I gave, notice that there is no separate AT team -- the Dragon gunner is simply a squad member who is qualified (or at least knows how) to use a Dragon, and other squad members are carrying extra ammo for him. He still carries a rifle and has duties as a rifleman.

A million years ago when I was in the Guard (this was early 1980s), we didn't have SAWs, so our "automatic riflemen" were M-60 gunners without A-gunners. Assuming we had enough blanks available, four other members of the squad would be carrying as many as two extra belts of ammo for the M-60s each.
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Old 05-24-2009, 11:05 PM
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Nate, your real name is Richard, isn't it?
Yes it is... if you're Eddie T from the Stargate SG1 website, it's great to see you again. Even if you've become an officer.
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Old 05-24-2009, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull
Also as I remember to, I think by 2000 many of the enlisted would be holding the rank of E-4. Only Privates and Private First Class would be those who were busted recently, in many cases like in any war, they would receive their rank quickly back. Any E1, E2, or E3 one would encounter would be more than likely be a local recruit.
I understand that, but in my campaign we used that those who still held the ranks of E1 to E3 where normally held by draftees who just didn't have the want/desire or ability to advance higher in the ranks. Since this was wartime instead of peacetime miltiary force with the 'Up or Out' requirements... it wasn't a problem to still be a private after 4+ years.

It goes with the addition of the following letters at the end of their SSN...

RA (Regular Army, regular volunteer 'career' soldier)
AUS (Army of the United States, draftee)
OR (Officer reserves)
ER (Enllisted reserves)
NG (National Guard)
USN (US Navy)
USMC (US Marine Corps)
USAF (US Air Force)
USCG (US Coast Guard)
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Old 05-25-2009, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natehale1971
ROFLOL! That's just too good! Reminds me of some really funny things when i was in as well.

I have a feeling that during the war the ranks of PVT and PV2 would be held by those draftees that where there 'just to fill in the ranks' as it where. Promotion to higher ranks would end up being career military or those draftees who would actually be damn good at their jobs.

Does anyone have suggestions about the Mortar and Anti-Armor assets being directly assigned to the platoon level with this reorganization that i'm using? Or does any have any suggestions for improving it? Or should I keep it the way it is?
By 2000 there would be many Draftees who entered service as late as 1998 who would be now would be NCO.
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Old 05-25-2009, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natehale1971
I understand that, but in my campaign we used that those who still held the ranks of E1 to E3 where normally held by draftees who just didn't have the want/desire or ability to advance higher in the ranks. Since this was wartime instead of peacetime miltiary force with the 'Up or Out' requirements... it wasn't a problem to still be a private after 4+ years.

It goes with the addition of the following letters at the end of their SSN...

RA (Regular Army, regular volunteer 'career' soldier)
AUS (Army of the United States, draftee)
OR (Officer reserves)
ER (Enllisted reserves)
NG (National Guard)
USN (US Navy)
USMC (US Marine Corps)
USAF (US Air Force)
USCG (US Coast Guard)
In wartime they are very particular to make sure enlisted personnel get their regular promotions, and IIRC after one year in service in enlisted you were E-3 and after 2 years you should be E-4. As long as there weren't other circumstances that would prevent.

One thing about the military it would take them awhile even after 1998 to realize that re-inforcement wouldn't be on the way. Most commanders would want their enlisted, if killed to be of the rank they had earned.
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Old 05-25-2009, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull
By 2000 there would be many Draftees who entered service as late as 1998 who would be now would be NCO.
It would be hit-or-miss. The bulk would get "normal" promotions and still be PV2-SPC, while some, due to combat conditions, might be Junior NCOs or even Senior NCOs and Junior to Middle rank officers. Those would be rare. They'd be rarer among new formations and militia forces raised from the local populace.
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Old 05-25-2009, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull
In wartime they are very particular to make sure enlisted personnel get their regular promotions, and IIRC after one year in service in enlisted you were E-3 and after 2 years you should be E-4. As long as there weren't other circumstances that would prevent.

One thing about the military it would take them awhile even after 1998 to realize that re-inforcement wouldn't be on the way. Most commanders would want their enlisted, if killed to be of the rank they had earned.
Just by dint of having a college degree and doing a good job, I came in as a PFC and got SPC after four months. SGT took about 3 years more, though I could have been eligible as soon as one year if I hadn't pissed so many people off.

If you are killed in combat, your corpse is generally promoted one rank before they put you in the ground.
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:09 AM
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I really hadn't thought of that... I was trying to capture the feel how it was during the second world war with soldiers who had remained PV2 from the moment they hit the beach at D-Day to V-E day. I like the fact that if you're killed in combat they automaticly promote you one paygrade before you're buried.

It makes me think about how the wartime moturay affairs would be taken care of.

Anyone here know anything about that subject?
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natehale1971

It makes me think about how the wartime moturay affairs would be taken care of.
I think a unit would ensure that its dead are recovered were buried wherever possible. Such burials would most likely have to take place close to where the soldier fell, and it may not be pratical to mark the grave in any way if the unit is in hostile territory, but presumably someone in the unit would take a note of the location as best as they could in the event that the remains could be repatriated at some future date? (Such a repatriation mission could form the basis of a campaign...). In our campaigns the unit's leader always carried the dog tags of the fallen.

Enemy dead are another matter...presumably if you have dead enemies near your base you will want to dispose of them to avoid the spread of disease... fuel and wood and such like would presumably be too valuable to waste burning dead enemy combatants, so I would imagine they would end up in mass graves, dug by prisoners, civilians, or if neccessary the PC's themselves? (I'd imagine a common theme with captured marauders would be to hand them a shovel so they could dig a pit big enough for their dead buddies plus themselves).

Dead enemies in the middle of nowhere where the spread of disease is not an immediate concern could presumably be left for the birds / animals after they were stripped of anything useful.

Of course, in extreme situations, dead bodies could be used as a source of food...enemies first, but in absolutely desparate circumstances the bodies of allies could also be eaten (a la Alive)
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Old 05-25-2009, 11:13 AM
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As if T2K wasn't a depresing enough environment to roleplay in, the PCs in some campaigns like to engage in behaviours that I usually avoid in my characters (on the rare opportunities that I get to play rather than GM). The PCs in Headquarters' campaign clearly like to dally with (or perhaps whole-heartedly embrace) 'the dark side' and the same goes for my campaign.

When it comes to dealing with the corpses of enemies or just strangers Major Po and his troupe of professional war criminals like to leave messages for other passers by. Just leaving the looted and semi naked bodies lying in the mud is fairly standard. Posing corpses at the site of a firefight to paint a different picture to what actually happened would also be a pretty common sort of activity, as would allowing some of Po's more detached and brutal underlings to do a little creative mutilation. Other fun choices have in the past included deliberately contaminating water sources with bodies, booby trapping corpses and using corpses to pretend that live hostages have been taken.

It would be a rare occasion indeed for Po's unit to give fallen enemy combatants a decent burial or funeral pyre.
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Old 05-25-2009, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natehale1971
I really hadn't thought of that... I was trying to capture the feel how it was during the second world war with soldiers who had remained PV2 from the moment they hit the beach at D-Day to V-E day. I like the fact that if you're killed in combat they automaticly promote you one paygrade before you're buried.

It makes me think about how the wartime moturay affairs would be taken care of.

Anyone here know anything about that subject?

Yes they had steady stream of replacements, and back then there wasn't set in stone rules when people moved up from Private. Also before the end of the Vietnam War there were several more Specialist/Technical ranks which were throw back to previous times. Many times these people where promoted to E-4 to E-7 and didn't hold down a command position, the add rank was way to recognize the held a senior position, yet not give the command authority. Even much like when I was in the 82nd with Specialist, they could 'temporarily' be in leadership positions, this depended from MOS and unit to unit.
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Old 05-25-2009, 01:45 PM
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Bear in mind, promotions in Iraq right now are ungodly fast and there isn't a shortage of bodies coming into theater (by comparison to the Twilight War). I personally had one of my Corporals make Staff Sergeant in 10 months. That's right. E4 >> E5 >> E6 in a 10-month span. And he didn't die.
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Old 05-25-2009, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natehale1971
It makes me think about how the wartime moturay affairs would be taken care of.

Anyone here know anything about that subject?
Unfortunately. What are your questions?
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Old 05-25-2009, 04:31 PM
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Unfortunately. What are your questions?
Well, i'm not sure.. But during an actual wartime experience how would mourtury affairs be handled? would there be actual detachments assigned to smaller commands to keep track of where soldiers have fallen, attempt to reacquire the dead so they could be placed in the resting places they deserve.

I had thought of mortuary affairs sections found in battalions, but have no idea how they are organized or even how they carry out their operations.
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Old 05-25-2009, 05:10 PM
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Mortuary Affairs are not at BN-level. They're at BDE- or higher-level. It falls on the unit in contact to recover any bodies or remains. If you can't, then unfortunately, there is nothing that is going to be done anytime soon. There is a POW/MIA detachment in Hawaii that deals exclusively with recovering remains, but they typically go back years later and identify via DNA.

Also, I'd really look at your reorganization of platoons above. It's very inflexible and as an Infantry platoon leader, would severely degrade my ability to engage and maneuver on an enemy.

The nine-man squad format is the most ideal configuration for a Squad. If you want want to include gun teams, then add them as attachments. In Ranger Infantry units (and some other Airborne units), the 9-man squad gets a 3-man gun team assigned to them under that squad leader's control (3 Rifle squads and 1 Weapons Squad of 3 gun teams). Stryker Infantry is similar in a 9-man squad and a 2-man vehicle crew (with a .50 cal or a MK-19). Even a Mechanized Infantry platoon still uses 9-man squads, even if they have to break that squad up amongst multiple vehicles.
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie
Bear in mind, promotions in Iraq right now are ungodly fast and there isn't a shortage of bodies coming into theater (by comparison to the Twilight War). I personally had one of my Corporals make Staff Sergeant in 10 months. That's right. E4 >> E5 >> E6 in a 10-month span. And he didn't die.
Me and buddy were talking about that. It nothing for Infantryman to make Sergeant in under two years now, with the rotations for many of the Infantry Brigades. One good thing about combat is that the ones, who are squared away in the field, do shine and get their promotion which to me is good thing.

Seen too many garrison super troops get promotion, which if you are show unit is nice. Yet, passing junk on the bunk and what not mickey mouse stuff one does in garrison will not keep you alive in the field.

When I was in 20 year ago it was 1000 points to make E-5, now it like 350. Also back then if you were lucky you could make E-5 in a 4 year hitch. Now you can make it with year or so out of Basic and AIT in infantry. Then again I remember recent E-6 who was promoted and the other E-7/E-8 were talking about how quickly the guy made Staff Sergeant, in like 6-7 years.

Also the influx of bodies also helps one get promotions up the ladder too.
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Old 05-26-2009, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Eddie
Mortuary Affairs are not at BN-level. They're at BDE- or higher-level. It falls on the unit in contact to recover any bodies or remains. If you can't, then unfortunately, there is nothing that is going to be done anytime soon. There is a POW/MIA detachment in Hawaii that deals exclusively with recovering remains, but they typically go back years later and identify via DNA.

Also, I'd really look at your reorganization of platoons above. It's very inflexible and as an Infantry platoon leader, would severely degrade my ability to engage and maneuver on an enemy.

The nine-man squad format is the most ideal configuration for a Squad. If you want want to include gun teams, then add them as attachments. In Ranger Infantry units (and some other Airborne units), the 9-man squad gets a 3-man gun team assigned to them under that squad leader's control (3 Rifle squads and 1 Weapons Squad of 3 gun teams). Stryker Infantry is similar in a 9-man squad and a 2-man vehicle crew (with a .50 cal or a MK-19). Even a Mechanized Infantry platoon still uses 9-man squads, even if they have to break that squad up amongst multiple vehicles.
i'll add an additional fireteam to each section... i had through that the section leader, medic, RTO, desingated marksman and forward observer could act easliy as a fireteam. i didn't realize that wasn't possible. But thank you for lettnig me know... i'll take care of that asap!

I was wondering how to set up the platoon Vehicle Section... Do you have recommendations for how many vehicles they would have? be it HMMWV and 2 1/2-ton trucks or even surviving BIFV or even an M1A2 Abrams? i kind of was thinking that they would try to put a tank company with every infantry battalion... but i'm not sure...
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Old 05-26-2009, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by natehale1971
I really hadn't thought of that... I was trying to capture the feel how it was during the second world war with soldiers who had remained PV2 from the moment they hit the beach at D-Day to V-E day. I like the fact that if you're killed in combat they automaticly promote you one paygrade before you're buried.

It makes me think about how the wartime moturay affairs would be taken care of.

Anyone here know anything about that subject?
Take note the rank structureof the US Army during WWII. There was no PV2:
Private
Private First Class
Corporal
Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Technical Sergeant
Master Sergeant
First Sergeant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...f_World_War_II
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Old 05-26-2009, 02:50 AM
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I took just a quick look at your previous link, but it led me to a link that's absolute gold:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_a...rmies_enlisted
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Old 05-26-2009, 04:25 AM
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i'll add an additional fireteam to each section... i had through that the section leader, medic, RTO, desingated marksman and forward observer could act easliy as a fireteam. i didn't realize that wasn't possible. But thank you for lettnig me know... i'll take care of that asap!
The section leader (as you put it; the more correct term is squad leader -- sections as units are primarily used in heavy mortar platoons and for add-ons like machinegun teams) is basically just another part of the squad; he sort of moves between the fireteams as needed). The RTO is also just another squad member, usually one of the riflemen. The designated marksman is also just part of the squad, typically the rifleman who is the best shot in the squad. Medics are farmed out from the BN Aid Station; if a platoon expects to see heavy action, they may have as many as three; but they are generally some of the hardest-working troops in the battalion when in combat, as there are more squads in a rifle battalion then medics. Having a real FIST (FO team) with you is a luxury in practice; you're more likely to have one or more of the platoon members (usually the platoon sergeants and platoon leaders) who know how to call for fire. If you have a platoon member who knows how to properly direct an air strike or naval gunfire, you've really lucked out.
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