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Old 01-21-2010, 08:43 PM
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Default US Navy Ships of the Twilight War

shrike6 02-20-2004, 04:46 PM I'm trying to hobble together a list of the US Navy ships mentioned canonwise. Here's the list I have so far:


DD 981 John Hancock -- Going Home

LPD 13 Nashville -- RDF Sourcebook

LHA 3 Belleau Wood

FFG 11 Clark

FFG 25 Boone

FFG 28 Copeland

CA 139 Salem

CG 48 Yorktown

CGN 38 Virginia (beached) -- Satellite Down

DDG 31 Decatur (Sunk)

SSN 705 City of Corpus Christi -- Last Submarine

SSN 750 Newport News (Sunk?)

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Matt Wiser 02-20-2004, 07:09 PM There were three Forrest-Sherman DDs mentioned in a Challenge article on the New Jersey-Delaware area: Manley and Bigelow were the two that I remember without digging my issues out of the box they're in. Two were based at Norfolk, while Bigelow was based at Cape May.


On the old forum, I had four carrier battle groups that had survived, but two rarely sailed due to fuel shortages, and two were nuclear carriers, but the escorts rarely had the fuel to sail.

I also mentioned the Battleships and Salem's sister ship Des Moines. If you like, I can repost this.

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shrike6 02-20-2004, 09:13 PM Matt, I wouldn't mind seeing what you have, go ahead and repost when you have the chance. Thanks for mentioning the Challenge article I didn't know about that one.

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Matt Wiser 02-21-2004, 05:46 PM OK Shrike, Here goes:


PACFLT: HQ Hilo, HI (relocated from Pearl Harbor)

US Third Fleet: HQ Hilo, HI


Home Port: NAS Alameda, CA

USS Carl Vinson (CVN-70) with CVW-15 (tailcode NL)

VF-51: F-14D

VF-111: F-14D

VFA-27: F/A-18C

VFA-97: F/A-18C

VA-52: A-6F

VS-37: S-3B

VAQ-134: EA-6B

VAW-114: E-2C

VQ-5 det 5: ES-3B

HS-4: SH-60F/HH-60H

USS Antietam (CG-54) w/HSL-45 det 3 (SH-60B)

USS Chosin (CG-65) w/HSL-41 det 7 (SH-60B)

USS California (CGN-36)

USS Stethem (DDG-63)

USS Paul F. Foster (DD-964) w/ HSL-41 det 2 (SH-60B)

USS Estocin (FFG-15) w/HSL-84 det 2 (SH-2F)

USS Halyburton (FFG-40) w/ HSL-45 det 5 (SH-60B)


US 7th Fleet: HQ Naval Station Guam

USS Constellation (CV-64)w/ CVW-2 (tailcode NE)

VF-1: F-14D

VF-2: F-14D

VFA-137: F/A-18C

VFA-151: F/A-18C

VA-145: A-6F

VA-155: A-6F

VS-38: S-3B

VAQ-131: EA-6B

VAW-116: E-2C

VQ-5 det 6: ES-3B

HS-14: SH-60F/HH-60H

USS Anzio (CG-68) w/ HSL-45 det 2 (SH-60B)

USS Port Royal (CG-73) w/ HSL-49 det 1 (SH-60B)

USS Mississippi (CGN-40)

USS Ramage (DDG-61)

USS Carney (DDG-64)

USS Fletcher (DD-992) w/ HSL-49 det 8 (SH-60B)

USS Gary (FFG-51) w/HSL-45 det 6 (SH-60B)


Shore-based at NAS Lemoore, CA:

VF-124: F-14A/B/D

VFA-125: F/A-18A/B/C/D

VS-41: S-3B

HCS-5: HH-60H

VFC-13: A-4F/M

VP-65: P-3C

VP-91: P-3C

HS-10: SH-60F

HSL-41: SH-60B

HC-1: CH-53E

VP-31: P-3C


Shore-based NAS Alameda, CA

HM-15: MH-53E

CVW-15 is shore-based at Alameda when not embarked.


Shore-based at Anderson AFB, Guam

VRC-50: C-2A, US-3A, C-130F

VQ-1: EP-3E

VQ-5: ES-3B, S-3A

HC-5; HH-46A

CVW-2 is shore-based at Anderson when not embarked.

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Matt Wiser 02-21-2004, 06:21 PM LANTFLT: HQ Little Creek Amphibious Base, VA


US Second Fleet: Little Creek


USS George Washington (CVN-73) w/CVW-17 (tailcode AA)

VF-74: F-14B

VF-103: F-14B

VFA-81: F/A-18C

VFA-83: F/A-18C

VA-34: A-6F/KA-6D

VAQ-132: EA-6B

VAW-125: E-2C

VS-30: S-3B

HS-9: SH-60F/HH-60H

VQ-6 det 2: ES-3B

USS Normandy (CG-60)w/ HSL-44 det 1 (SH-60B)

USS South Carolina (CGN-37)

USS Mitscher (DDG-57)

USS Briscoe (DD-977) w/ HSL-46 det 7 (SH-60B

USS Elrod (FFG-55) w/ HSL-42 det 6 (SH-60B)


US Naval Forces Europe: Portsmouth, England

USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71) w/CVW-8 (tailcode AJ)

VF-41: F-14D

VF-84: F-14D

VFA-15: F/A-18C

VFA-87: F/A-18C

VA-65: A-6E

VA-36: A-6E

VS-24: S-3B

VAQ-141: EA-6B

VAW-124: E-2C

HS-3: SH-60F/HH-60H

VQ-6 det 4: ES-3B

USS Yorktown (CG-48)w/ HSL-42 det 4(SH-60B)

USS Hue City (CG-66)w/HSL-44 det 5 (SH-60B)

USS Arkansas (CGN-41)

USS Cole (DDG-67)

USS Scott (DDG-995)w/HSL-36 det 2 (SH-2F)

USS Hayler (DD-997)w/ HSL-44 det 6 (SH-60B)

USS McIrney (FFG-8)w/ HSL-42 det 7 (SH-60B

USS Simpson (FFG-56)w/ HSL-46 det 1 (SH-60B)


Shore-based at NAS Oceana, VA:

VF-101: F-14A/B/D

VFA-106: F/A-18A/B/C/D

VA-42: A-6E/F, KA-6D

VAW-120: E-2C, C-2A

HSL-40: SH-60B)

VP-30: P-3C

VP-45: P-3C

CVW-17 is shore-based at NAS Oceana when not embarked


CVW-8 is shore-based at RNAS Yevoliton, England when not embarked.

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Matt Wiser 02-21-2004, 06:35 PM USS Iowa (BB-61) Active Atlantic: Damage to #2 turret repaired 1992 after accidental explosion in 1989. Damaged by Type-65 torpedo fired from Soviet Akula-class SSN 8/24/97 and beached near Bremerhaven, FRG. Hulk stripped and destroyed as part of Operation OMEGA.


USS New Jersey (BB-62) Active Atlantic: Sunk by nuclear-tipped SS-N-19 SSMs fired from Oscar-class SSGN 9/8/97 off of Bergen, Norway.


USS Missouri (BB-63) Active Pacific: Active off Korea and in containment of SOVPACFLT 1996-97. In port at Chinhae, ROK due to lack of fuel.


USS Wisconsin (BB-64) Active Pacific: Active off Korea and Aleutians. Destroyed Soviet reinforcement convoy headed for Alaska 6/18/97. Damaged by conventional torpedo (one hit) in bow from Victor-II SSN 11/22/97 and headed for Pearl Harbor, HI for repairs. Diverted to Hilo after nuclear strike on Honolulu. In port Hilo for lack of fuel, but still seaworthy.


And the two Des Moines-class CAs-Salem is in RDF Sourcebook.


USS Des Moines (CA-134) Active Pacific: Involved in Korean Campaign since 5/1/97. In port Chinhae, ROK due to lack of fuel.

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Matt Wiser 02-21-2004, 06:44 PM OOPS-had Yorktown in LANTFLT when she's in RDF Sourcebook, my mistake. RDF Sourcebook has her hull number wrong-it's CG-48. In place of Yorktown with the Theodore Roosevelt CVBG substitute USS Thomas S. Gates (CG-51). The HSL det is still the same.

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Matt Wiser 02-21-2004, 06:54 PM Shrike: Belleau Wood's hull number is LHA-3.

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shrike6 02-21-2004, 11:48 PM You're right Matt, it is LHA 3. I went ahead and fixed it up above.


Just from taking a quick glance, it looks like the ships you've got listed doesn't overlap with the ships I was going to use in a project I'm working on, definitely cool. Thanks for reposting your Naval orbat.


Brian

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Matt Wiser 02-22-2004, 01:14 AM The folks who put RDF Sourcebook made a typo-Yorktown's hull Number is CG-48, not CG-45. That number was for an unbuilt Virginia-class CGN.


Here are several amphibs and other warships:


US Third Fleet: Hilo, HI.


USS Boxer (LHD-6) VMA-322 with AV-8B embarked. Ship was en route to Persian Gulf when nuclear exchange hit CONUS. In Port at Hilo, HI. Occasionally sails in Hawaiian waters supporting PACCOM's reconstruction efforts.

USS Forrest Sherman (DD-931) reactivated Jan 97. Assigned Pacific and based at Pearl Harbor. At sea when Honolulu nuked and now based at Hilo. She escorts Boxer on her infrequent cruises. Only other ship active at Hilo on a routine basis is the Coast Guard Cutter USCG Chase (WHEC-718).

A number of interisland civilian ships have been pressed into Navy service to support Hawaiian ops and reconstruction.


US Seventh Fleet: Divided between Guam and Chinhae, ROK.


USS Semmes (DDG-18): Chinhae, ROK. One of only two 7th FLT ships in Korea active on a regular basis. Frequent Patrols in Yellow Sea supporting SEAL operations in North Korea and in China. Other active ship in Korea is USS Vincennes (CG-49) with HSL-47 det 1 (SH-60B)


Guam: USS Essex (LHD-2) at NS Guam. She "shows the flag" in the Marianas: VMA-124 with AV-8B embarked for but never arrived in Korea, She had also embarked Marine replacements for Korea, but put into Guam after nuclear exchange reached CONUS.

Marines formed into the 41st MEU (Provisional). Her escort is USS Turner Joy (DD-951); reactivated Jan 97 and assigned Pacific. Escorted Essex on her transPac and remains based at Guam. Provides fire support for Marines and Army's 1-294 Infantry Battalion (GU NG). Additional Marines that never made it to Korea are on Saipan and Tinian organized into the 42nd MEU (Prov) on Saipan and 43rd MEU (Prov) on Tinian. Several interisland ships pressed into Navy service to support Marines.

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shrike6 02-22-2004, 06:59 PM corrected the Yorktown as well. Is this all of it Matt?

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Matt Wiser 02-23-2004, 12:42 AM That's all for the surface ships that are active. There are other surface ships (at Alameda, Bremerton in Washington, and Little Creek, as well as in England, Guam, and Korea, but are not very active. The ships listed sail at least once a month to six weeks. The nuclear cruisers of course are more active-and all had refuelings in the early '90s so they won't have to worry about their reactor cores running out. The Constellation carrier group has enough fuel to sail for home, but as long as 8th Army is in Korea, they stay in Guam. Even if sailing for just a day or so to keep the engines and bearings in good shape, and to keep crews from getting rusty, they are still active.


Give me a couple of days and I'll post what I had on subs: I found it hard to believe that there was only one SSN (City of Corpus Christi) left, and no boomers (missile boats). I had a few SSNs still active in LANTFLT and PACFLT, and missile boats as well, although what they'd target their missiles on is a question in 2000. Frank Frey had a Seawolf-class SSN attached to 5th FLT in Bahrain in a post on the old forum, and he had a USN force based out of Mombasa as part of the Lions of Twilight, but gave no details on composition, strength, etc.


PACFLT has four SSBNs and LANTFLT has three left. SSNs are more numerous in PACFLT: six. One based at Guam, four at Hilo, one at Bangor, WA (the Trident Sub Base) LANTFLT has only two SSNs (City of Corpus Christi is one). The Bangor SSN is USS Parche (SSN-683), the "special projects" boat. Her missions were classified before the war, and are still classified, with operations assigned her by the JCS at Colorado Springs.

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shrike6 02-23-2004, 08:31 AM Originally posted by Matt Wiser



Give me a couple of days and I'll post what I had on subs: I found it hard to believe that there was only one SSN (City of Corpus Christi) left, and no boomers (missile boats).


Personally, I've always looked at the Corpus Christi as the Battlestar Galactica, just because she's the only one known to survive doesn't mean there aren't a few Pegasus's lurking in other parts of the world.

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dawg180 02-23-2004, 10:28 AM I always thought there would be a heck of a lot more SSN's and SSBN's around- after all, they are the hardest to find. Surface vessels are easy to locate and pretty much have nowhere to hide when the nukes come. A good sub captain can be a sneaky bastard and keep from being found- he has a third dimension (to a degree) to use. Not to mention all US subs are nuclear powered and can stay submerged for 90 days (longer if they can stock more provisions for the crew)

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Matt Wiser 02-24-2004, 02:03 AM Here's the subs in both PACFLT and LANTFLT:


PACFLT


NS Guam:


USS Columbus (SSN-762). No shortage of Mk-48 torpedoes, but Harpoon SSMs and Tomahawks are in limited supply. Frequent patrols to China, North Korean, and Soviet Far East waters, with occasional patrols to SE Asia.


Hilo, HI:


USS La Jolla (SSN-701)

USS Houston (SSN-713)

USS Helena (SSN-725)

USS Topeka (SSN-754)


Torpedoes are still reasonably availiable; but Harpoons and Tomahawks are in short supply. Patrols to Alaska, Soviet Far East, China, and adjacent waters.


SubBase Bangor, WA:


USS Parche has already been mentioned. Milgov is still very secretive regarding her missions. A platoon from SEAL Team 1 is assigned to the boat.

The boomers belong to Submarine Squadron 17.


USS Florida (SSBN-728)

USS Alabama (SSBN-731)

USS Alaska (SSBN-732)

USS Nevada (SSBN-733)


All four boats executed SIOP when ordered on Thanksgiving Day, 1997. None expended their whole load of missiles; Nevada only expended two, as an example. Missile tubes were reloaded and the boats continue patrols, with Florida and Alaska launching in 1998 (four and two respectively), and Nevada launching in 1999 (two). Torpedoes are still availiable at Bangor.


LANTFLT: All boats are based at Little Creek, VA.


USS City of Corpus Christi (SSN-705)

USS Tuscon (SSN-770)


Both boats have a shortage of torpedoes and Harpoon/Tomahawk, and 705 is used as a "special missions" boat. Tuscon conducts patrols in Atlantic waters, from South Africa and Brazil to the Barents Sea. Both avoid combat unless it is unavoidable.


The boomers belong to the relocated Submarine Squadron 20, originally from King's Bay, GA.


USS West Virginia (SSBN-736)

USS Nebraska (SSBN-739)

USS Louisiana (SSBN-743)


All missile boats still carry a full missile loadout, as well as torpedoes. The boats executed SIOP launches, and several post-SIOP launches in 1998-99. Before King's Bay was abandoned, the three boats loaded replacement missiles, submarine spare parts, and maintainance personnel for both the subs and missiles.

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James1978 02-24-2004, 05:36 PM Minor nit. With the Cold War having continued, wouldn't a lot of Sturgeon class subs have still been in the fleet? In real life most of them didn't retire until after 1995 anyways. Also, a few Seawolf boats may have made it to the fleet given the continuing Cold War.


With the boomers, 7 surviving Ohios means that 10 got killed. Maybe I'm just buying into USN propaganda, but that would need some explaining. Does anyone know how long the Benjamin Franklin class was supposed to stay in service before the Cold War ended? In real life most of them didn't decomision until 1993-1995.

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Matt Wiser 02-24-2004, 05:53 PM Two reasons for seven surviving Ohios: 1) Two were at EB in Groton, CT, being refitted to carry Trident II when the nukes fell; that leaves eight. The boomers listed are active; thus: 2) Several other boomers are in port, but are inactive due to parts and personnel shortages. At both Bangor and Little Creek, other boomers are used as parts sources to keep the active boats going. Only one Ohio believed sunk by enemy action in the war. Bangor has the only dry dock that can handle an Ohio anywhere that survives intact. An expedition is planned to investigate King's Bay to determine if any equipment is still there and salvagable. More parts, personnel, etc. are at Bangor. Hence four surviving boomers. There is a floating dry dock that was moved from Pearl to Hilo before the Thanksgiving Massacre as a precaution to support PACFLT if Pearl was nuked. Columbus was rotated to Guam. When her tour is up, La Jolla will take her slot.

Frank Frey in a post on the old forum had a Seawolf active out of Bahrain (he called her USS Monitor IIRC).

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Matt Wiser 02-25-2004, 12:08 PM Here's another West Coast base:


NAS Whidbey Island, WA


VA-128: A-6E/F/KA-6D

VAQ-129: EA-6B

VF-124 det 1: F-14B

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shrike6 02-25-2004, 01:00 PM Originally posted by James1978

Minor nit. With the Cold War having continued, wouldn't a lot of Sturgeon class subs have still been in the fleet? In real life most of them didn't retire until after 1995 anyways. Also, a few Seawolf boats may have made it to the fleet given the continuing Cold War.




You do have a point, James. The last Permit class sub (USS Gato SSN 615) wasn't retired until April of 1996. Also keep in mind the USS Parche is a modified Sturgeon class sub.

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Matt Wiser 02-25-2004, 04:23 PM Point taken on Sturgeon and Permits-but the Seawolfs would have begun replacing both classes. Two, maybe three Seawolfs max before the nukes fall.

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Matt Wiser 02-25-2004, 04:31 PM How's this for a "special mission" for Parche: She takes PCs (a SEAL team, or recon marines) down to Baja for the Satellite Down mission. Or have a similar mission take place say, in the Soviet Far East or in someplace in SE Asia, with the SSN being the mode of transport.

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shrike6 02-26-2004, 01:49 PM Originally posted by James1978

Does anyone know how long the Benjamin Franklin class was supposed to stay in service before the Cold War ended? In real life most of them didn't decomision until 1993-1995.


Originally posted by Matt Wiser

Point taken on Sturgeon and Permits-but the Seawolfs would have begun replacing both classes. Two, maybe three Seawolfs max before the nukes fall.


I believe that (somebody correct me if I'm wrong) 30 to 35 years is the normal service life for nuclear submarines. The Permits had started being decommissioned as early as 1988 (SSN-607 USS Dace). So they probably would have started being scrapped. The Ben Franklins are in a gray area. They probably would have still had a couple of years left on them. Although my guess is that they still would have started retiring them. Also another question is would the US have built the six additional proposed OHIO class subs in this timeline?

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James1978 02-26-2004, 06:57 PM My guess is that that SSBNs 744- 749 would have been authorized, but based on the completion date of Louisiana (Sept 97), I'm not sure it would have mattered.


Had the Cold War not ended, some genius may have gotten the idea to turn some of the Ben Franklins into SSGNs. Two were converted to specops boats, perhaps more would have been in this world.

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shrike6 02-26-2004, 09:39 PM Originally posted by James1978

My guess is that that SSBNs 744- 749 would have been authorized, but based on the completion date of Louisiana (Sept 97), I'm not sure it would have mattered.




Good point on the Ohiios wasn't even paying attention to completion dates.

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Ed the Coastie 02-28-2004, 12:26 PM I don't know about Navy vessels, but I used to always keep my eye out for Coast Guard cutters mentioned in the various modules and Challenge adventures.


Naturally, being a former Coastie, I am well aware that the Coast Guard is that "small nucleus of highly-trained personnel about which the Navy gathers in time of war" -- some 98% of Coast Guard assets get transferred to Naval service. However, the largest Coast Guard cutters (not counting the 400' Polar-class icebreakers) are only 378' long and most are smaller. So it seems to me that many of them may have survived simply because they tend to be overlooked.


A handful of specific vessels not mentioned in the canon, but that have appeared in my own games:


The icebreaker USCGC Northwind (WAGB-282) had been decommissioned in 1989, only to be brought back into service and sent into the Gulf of Mexico to serve as a floating "patrol base" for a handful of 82' Point-class patrol boats. At the time of the events of "Gateway to the Spanish Main", she has moved to San Juan with her two surviving patrol boats: the Point Martin (WPB-82379) and Point Countess (WPB-82335). Also in San Juan is the USCGC Sedge (WLB-402) and the recently-recovered USCGC Citrus (WAGL-300).


The patrol boat USCGC Point Francis (WPB-82356) was visiting Avalon on Catalina Island when the November Nukes fell. She then became the core of the makeshift naval contingent of the Catalina Island Defense Force.

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Matt Wiser 02-29-2004, 12:08 AM The original plan was indeed for 24 Ohios, and I'm sure with a continuing Cold War the production of the Ohios might have been increased. EB I think could have done two a year if need be, along with their attack boat (LA and Seawolf) work. BTW the only state to never have a battleship, nuclear cruiser, or boomer named for it was Montana. Two battleships with that name were cancelled, one in 1922 (Washington Treaty), one in 1943 (lead of a class of super-Iowas with 12 16", 57,000 tons, etc.) before being laid down. An unbuilt Virginia-class CGN (CGN-42) may have been planned to be named Montana, but she was axed before being laid down, and one of the unbuilt Ohios might have carried the state name.

A Virginia-class SSN will probably carry the name (finally).

********************

Matt Wiser 03-01-2004, 03:27 AM Frank Frey in one of his posts on the 173rd Airborne in Kenya mentioned a USN/USCG JTF operating out of Mombasa against the local pirates, smugglers, and other scum in the area.

My guess as to composition:


USS Morton (DD-948) Reactivated Forrest-Sherman class DD. Reactivated Jan 97 and originally assigned Pacific. Deployed to Mombasa Jul 97 and based there since. Ship is very active.

USS Lockwood (FF-1064) Knox-class FF. Retired in 1991 but reactivated Oct 96 and assigned Pacific. Provided local ASW cover with HSL-84 det 6 (SH-2F). Another Knox-class FF, USS Bagley (FF-1069) was assigned, but bow blown off by torpedo from Victor-II SSN 7/7/97. Hulk used as a parts source for Lockwood. Her SH-2 also used as parts source, with crew reassigned to local base duties, or as advisors to Kenyan Navy.

VP-69 (USN Reserve from NAS Whidbey Island, WA) provides local aviation support with 4 flyable P-3C Orions for MP/ASW.

SEAL support is from Naval Reserve elements originally assigned to SEAL Team 2. Their main support vessel is the Cyclone-class gunboat USS Thunderbolt (PC-12), along with a number of PB Mk III and Stinger (improved PBR) patrol craft.

Mine countermeasures are handled by USS Patriot (MCM-7)


Coast Guard is represented by the cutter USCG Jarvis (WHEC-725), originally assigned from San Francisco. A USN helo det from HSL-84 (det 10) with SH-2 deployed with the ship. Helo lost in accident in 1998 over land. Four Island-class patrol boats round out the force, and do work with SEALS as necessary. No USCG aviation deployed.

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James1978 03-01-2004, 10:10 PM Originally posted by Matt Wiser

The original plan was indeed for 24 Ohios, and I'm sure with a continuing Cold War the production of the Ohios might have been increased. EB I think could have done two a year if need be, along with their attack boat (LA and Seawolf) work.


I went and checked the lay down and commisioning dates on the Ohios and I think your're right. The construcion times were stretched out on the last few ships. During the 80s they averaged 2-3 years from lay down to commisioning, but the last two units took 6-7 years. The most laid down in a single year was three. So EB probably could have built and commisioned 3-4 more before war broke out.


Something else occured to me. I've heard that there were plans to build more Tigonderoga CGs, but that this option was not taken once the Cold War ended. So in the T2K world, the USN may have had more Aegis CGs as well.

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Matt Wiser 03-02-2004, 02:35 AM Sorry, James, but Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet says that the Ticonderogas were meant to be 27 ships. 27 planned, funded, and built. They were meant to compliment a strike cruiser (CSGN) that would have had Aegis, be nuclear powered, have VLS, etc. Not funded or built, unfortunately. They would have been the USN's equivalent to the Soviet Kirovs had they been built.

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James1978 03-02-2004, 03:06 PM That may be, but I'd swear I heard some admiral or navy official mention that there was some interest in more but that the decsion point was soon after the cold war ended so they never asked for them. Oh well.


The CGSN was cancelled in the 1970s when the Ticonderogas were still DDGs. Norman Friedman's US Cruisers has some info on the CGSN as well. I don't recall anything about VLS.

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Old 04-25-2012, 08:44 PM
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Moved from the archive.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:39 PM
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Great post full of very interesting info. One minor nit to one of the sections there, and thats the Connie. During the 80's, the connie was a bug nest: All the squadrons flying off of it was Hornets: it was the first CV to go all Bug. Now, as far as I can tell, that didn't change, as they found that a all bug CV allowed for more A/C and as other CV's discovered in exercises, a real PITA to get too as "One Second, there was nothing, and then, pow, someone kicked the hornet's nest..." as one pilot once put it. So, I dunno if there would be a Tom Squadron or two assigned to it.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:59 PM
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CVW-14 was Connie's air wing back in the '80s. After her SLEP, she got CVW-2. By that time, if there'd been no drawdown, each carrier air wing was to have two F-14D, two F/A-18A or C, one (some had two) A-6, one S-3, plus the VAQ, VAW, and HS squadrons.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:10 PM
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Fair 'nuff.

I just kept reading how it was a Hornet Nest in the late 80's, and never saw anything counter to that.

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Old 04-26-2012, 11:04 AM
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A couple of addenda if I may?

There are at present IRL five carriers as museums : Two in California, one in Corpus Christi and one in North Carolina.

Of these, I see three as still present or viable for any sort of use in a post-Twilight 2000 fashion (like, in 2010 or later, if the reconstructed US is interested in a deep blue water navy/power projection), namely the Intrepid, the Yorktown and the Lexington. Intrepid is in NYC, which wasn't hit by nukes.

Yorktown is in Corpus Christi which, again, I don't think was hit, and of course Lexington is in Charleston which I think (THINK) was spared.

Of the two remaining, the Hornet is in Alameda Bay, very dangerously close to a primary site - probably too damaged. Midway is in San Diego IRL, but wasn't retired there until 1991 - an event that may not have happened in the T2k universe.

Putting those ships back in service is probably not feasible, however, a USN desperate for sea assets as the US reconstructs might try anything. A few possible uses are: leave them where they are, use them as bases. Leave them where they are, strip them for parts to get other, smaller and more easily maintained ship seaworthy. Strip two for parts to get the least...stale?...seaworthy. Get them all afloat, but only use prop a/c (Hawkeyes, OV-10 Broncos, etc.), helos and Harriers. Or, finally, get them entirely rebuilt as ships of the line. This last one, in a strict by-the-book T2k 1e framework would require decades upon decades of work, as 90% of the potential workforce, infrastructure and crew to draw upon are dead. If you play fast and loose with your timeline it might be possible to get one ready to sail in perhaps a decade, the others a bit more quickly by applying lessons learned in the first instance.

Along those same lines there's a lot of ships of all classes distributed as museums (all well prior to the T2k timeline) - the Alabama, the Wisconsin etc. It would be worth looking in to to find out what museum moorings weren't hit to find out what might constitute a rebuilding US Navy. I realize a great many of those vessels are WWII, but like constituting an Air Force wing out of Broncos or a "tank" "division" out of scavenged Soviet armor, M998 ITVs and other things, it might be worth doing on a large scale. The inland infrastructure required to produce large ships (steel foundries, iron mines, etc.) are gone. Additionally, as modern ships of the line were atritted during the war, spare parts held for repair/refurbishing/rearming those ships could be diverted to modernize these reconditioned vessels.

It's fanciful, yes, but hey my hobby has giant robots, guys in robes who can say "alakazam" and fill 33,000 square feet with a roaring fire, and so on
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:21 PM
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Corpus Christi was badly affected by a refinery strike. The details are in Red Star/Lone Star. If time allows today, I'll look for the specifics.
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:31 PM
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Corpus Christi was badly affected by a refinery strike. The details are in Red Star/Lone Star. If time allows today, I'll look for the specifics.
Just checked Howling Wilderness, Charleston got shwacked too, so count both museum carriers out. The MilGov forces in Ft. Dix tried to re-settle NYC and establish law and order there and suffered heavy casualties, so moving Intrepid, much less re-fitting her, wouldn't happen before NYC itself is sorted out.
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Old 04-26-2012, 04:05 PM
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A Rock in Troubled Waters lists three Forrest Sherman DD's still very much afloat and in commission in late winter/early spring of 2001 as well as a coast guard vessel and several smaller vessels.
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Old 04-26-2012, 04:08 PM
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Museum Carriers and locations:

USS Yorktown is located in Charleston, South Carolina and was a museum ship before the start of the Twilight war. I've been on it and it looked to me that she would need a lot of work to get it operational. At best it could operate as an adhoc helo/amphib ship.

USS Hornet is located in Alameda, California . I've been on it and it appeared to be in good condition. In 1970 she was decommissioned at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard Bremerton, WA. Didn't become a museum until 1996. Load it with some A-4s and helos, and the Grey Ghost could harass Mexican/Cuban forces in California, as long as the avgas lasts.

USS Intrepid is located in New York City, New York. Became a museum in the early '80s.

USS Midway is located in San Diego, California. I've been on it and it is in great shape. The ship was decommissioned in 1992, her sister ship Coral Sea was decommissioned the year before. In the Twilight war, both ships could conceivably be reactivated and operate F-18s and helos.

USS Lexington is located in Corpus Christi, Texas. Decommissioned in 1991, and made a museum in 1992. Presumably still serviceable for the Twilight war, the Blue Ghost could operate planes or helos in the Gulf of Mexico.
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Old 04-26-2012, 04:12 PM
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I always take Howling Wildnerness as not very reliable - information they have in that module does not match info in other modules - for instance the Soviet Vehicle Guide specifically talks about the 49th Armored Division having a BMP-C captured in 1999 that served with the division for a number of years and finally retired and serving as a decoration at their HQ.

Howling Wildnerness says that the Milgov forces in the 90th Corps and Oklahoma are destroyed as fighting units by late 2001.

Sorry you cant have it both ways - you cant have one canon source say the division stayed intact and another saying it was destroyed.

Yet another reason I tend to ignore Howling Wildnerness. It contradicts not only other canon sources but in many places itself.
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:21 PM
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Museum Carriers and locations:

USS Yorktown is located in Charleston, South Carolina and was a museum ship before the start of the Twilight war. I've been on it and it looked to me that she would need a lot of work to get it operational. At best it could operate as an adhoc helo/amphib ship.
Charleston took a direct hit, though.

Quote:
USS Hornet is located in Alameda, California . I've been on it and it appeared to be in good condition. In 1970 she was decommissioned at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard Bremerton, WA. Didn't become a museum until 1996. Load it with some A-4s and helos, and the Grey Ghost could harass Mexican/Cuban forces in California, as long as the avgas lasts.
Alameda would've caught plenty of fallout and blast from the nukes that hit San Fran that Hornet is probably an irradiated wreck.

Quote:
USS Intrepid is located in New York City, New York. Became a museum in the early '80s.
The only one on the list not right next door to or directly at a primary site, Intrepid is the only hope for a re-workable flattop.

Quote:
USS Midway is located in San Diego, California. I've been on it and it is in great shape. The ship was decommissioned in 1992, her sister ship Coral Sea was decommissioned the year before. In the Twilight war, both ships could conceivably be reactivated and operate F-18s and helos.
Probably not decommissioned in the T2k 1e timeline.

Quote:
USS Lexington is located in Corpus Christi, Texas. Decommissioned in 1991, and made a museum in 1992. Presumably still serviceable for the Twilight war, the Blue Ghost could operate planes or helos in the Gulf of Mexico.
Corpus Christi got hit.

I wish there were more salvageable big girls too but...thems the facts.
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:32 PM
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Midway was originally planned to decommission in 1993. The end of the Cold War sped the process up, and she made her last cruise (the evacuation of dependents from Clark AB and Subic Bay after a volcano blew) in 1991. Coral Sea decommed in 1990. Both would've been available for reactivation in 1996, though it's more likely that Midway would've and Coral Sea used as a parts source.

Hornet would still have been at Bremerton Navy Yard when TDM happened. But forget about putting her to sea when you're trying to get what ships are available to sea as well. She would've been used as an accomodation hulk, and as a parts source for Oriskany if the decision had been made to reactivate her.
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:10 PM
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USS Intrepid was decommissioned in the mid 70's. It's unlikely to be in a decent shape by 95 let alone 2000. It's also damn close to Central Park which I believe is a bit of a stronghold for anti-government forces. They might get a bit upset at somebody taking "their" carrier".

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- for instance the Soviet Vehicle Guide specifically talks about the 49th Armoured Division having a BMP-C captured in 1999 that served with the division for a number of years and finally retired and serving as a decoration at their HQ.

Howling Wilderness says that the Milgov forces in the 90th Corps and Oklahoma are destroyed as fighting units by late 2001.

Sorry you cant have it both ways - you cant have one canon source say the division stayed intact and another saying it was destroyed.
I don't see any contradiction here at all. Note that Howling Wilderness states destroyed as a fighting unit, not completely and utterly wiped off the face of the planet.

The US 5th ID is another example of destroyed as a fighting unit, however we know they weren't killed to the last man and that there's still some respectably sized chunks of it in late 2000 floating about. give it a year or two and the 5th could have been reconstituted using surviving personnel, but perhaps at 10% of it's pre July 2000 strength.
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:01 AM
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The only one on the list not right next door to or directly at a primary site, Intrepid is the only hope for a re-workable flattop.
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USS Intrepid was decommissioned in the mid 70's. It's unlikely to be in a decent shape by 95 let alone 2000. It's also damn close to Central Park which I believe is a bit of a stronghold for anti-government forces. They might get a bit upset at somebody taking "their" carrier".
I have a dim, distant and therefore unreliable recollection of reading somewhere that in RL the Intrepid was not an easy vessel to move from it's T2K era mooring location because it was effectively silted in place. That would add an additional level of difficulty to any refurbishment of the vessel as a mobile platform, because if it's immobile due to its keel being glued to the river bottom by megatons of mud it won't easily become mobile again (obviously), and because any refurbishment on the scale required for a ship that long out of active service would need to be undertaken at an appropriate facility, not at a tourist dock in downtown Manhattan. Getting it to an overhaul facility would first require a large-scale, time and resource consuming dredging operation. That's a lot of preliminary work for a time-critical, resource-heavy project which carried a risk of becoming unfeasible or irrelevant over the time scale of the war.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:34 AM
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Leg,

If you read the Soviet Vehicle Guide it clearly implies the 49th holds together in the write up. The 5th was remnants here and there of 40 men or 50 men, but it wasnt a division any more. The way the original Escape scenario is written at most a couple hundred men made it out.

Heck in my campaign we ended up gathering almost every man of the 5th we could find - and in all it was about 140 men - hardly a division anymore. (the B troop of the Cav and Task Force Zulu for instance arent part of the 5th even if you have them join your group)

But the 49th is mentioned with a clear HQ and the BMP-C as a memorial there. A division isnt destroyed as a fighting unit and then has the kind of writeup mentioned in the Vehicle Guide.

Now the 90th Corps could still have broken up - keep in mind the Going Home scenario - some of the units stay on in Germany and are clearly still very much operational units but they arent responsible to Corps HQ anymore - so the 49th may have survived as an intact unit, still functional but not as part of 90th Corps which may have broken apart as a Corps.

Obviously at some point within the operational life of that BMP-C if the Guide is to be taken as canon they were stationed at Fort Sill again.

And one thing about Howling Wildnerness is that it gives projected events, not events that were ever detailed. I..e the canon basically stopped in the summer of 2001 - except for a couple of isolated Challenge magazine articles what happens past July of 2001 is pretty much up in the air.

And 2300AD while a good guide is not necessary the canon per se because so many events (like say the return of the forces in Kenya, the RDF and Korea home as organized units happening or the retaking of California and Arizona and New Mexico from the Mexicans or whatever) were never detailed.

And since there was no story bible that anyone associated with GDW ever produced saying what was about to happen besides Frank Frey's notes on Korea and what Howling Wildnerness says which a lot of people dispute, apparently even inside GDW itself if you look at all the contradictions, then the canon is very malleable as to what will happen after mid 2001.

(i.e. Satellite down is in Feb 2001, Kidnapped early summer 2001 and then it all stops in the US)

Oh and since Kidnapped and Howling Wildnerness are by the same guy thats why I group them together as having the same issues
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:45 AM
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I have a dim, distant and therefore unreliable recollection of reading somewhere that in RL the Intrepid was not an easy vessel to move from it's T2K era mooring location because it was effectively silted in place. That would add an additional level of difficulty to any refurbishment of the vessel as a mobile platform, because if it's immobile due to its keel being glued to the river bottom by megatons of mud it won't easily become mobile again (obviously), and because any refurbishment on the scale required for a ship that long out of active service would need to be undertaken at an appropriate facility, not at a tourist dock in downtown Manhattan. Getting it to an overhaul facility would first require a large-scale, time and resource consuming dredging operation. That's a lot of preliminary work for a time-critical, resource-heavy project which carried a risk of becoming unfeasible or irrelevant over the time scale of the war.
Back when they did have to do some work on it in the early 2000s IRL they were worried that she wouldn't budge because of the silt, but a few gentle pulls with tugs and she slid right out.

My thinking was more postwar, during reconstruction, when a rebuilding US would have more time to devote to such things rather than "Get it out and fix it and get it into the war", but otherwise, spot-on.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:54 AM
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Yes, the vehicle in question was eventually displayed at Fort Sill, but that could have been YEARS later, after the war was well and truly over and the situation at home had stabilised.

I'm glad you can see that the destruction of 90th Corps as a fighting unit does not automatically mean the 49th was also destroyed. As of 01APR01 the 49th still had a respectable strength of 1200 men and 5 tanks and that's more than many Soviet Divisions and even a number of US Divisions too!

As for the US 5th ID, there's 60 US soldiers held in temporary prison arrangements in Zdunska Wola alone. That obviously can't be the only place they're held. Also, given the absolute pasting the 1st Brigade dished out to the Sov 124th Division, which incidentally was on the route the withdrawal of the 5th was to take, it would seem logical that a substantial portion of those US troops made it into the forest to the south, even if it was on foot.

Additionally, even if only a few hundred US soldiers made it out, and don't forget the 5th started out with 3,000 men and 42 MBTs (plus artillery, APCs, IFVs) that still makes them just as large, or even larger than a number of Pact Divisions. Sure they're disorganised and spread out, but they're not dead. The unit is destroyed as a fighting unit, but they're not all dead. The unit still exists, if only on paper. Some of their manpower and heavy equipment still exists, why else can a PC group just starting out roll up an M1 tank for a vehicle? All that group needs to do is link up with a few other groups just like them and they've got a company. A few more and they've got a battalion. (Admittedly that's unlikely to occur while on the run behind enemy lines).

I too have played in games where stragglers were picked up, prisoners rescued, hospitals liberated and a group of over a hundred gathered, and I'm certain we're not alone in that experience. Given that each PC group isn't exactly scouring the region for people and for the most part are probably avoiding contact and discovery, that would seem to imply there's plenty more out there.

The canon material does hang together if you take the time and look at it with an open mind. Some of it may not make perfect sense right away, such as why the Soviets invaded Alaska, but taken in context with everything else happening at the same time, possible and plausible explanations start to appear. As my signature says, nothing happens in isolation.

Open your mind to the possibilities. Don't dismiss things just because the answers don't immediately reach out and slap you in the face.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:50 PM
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Back when they did have to do some work on it in the early 2000s IRL they were worried that she wouldn't budge because of the silt, but a few gentle pulls with tugs and she slid right out.
They were right to be worried, and it took a lot more than a "few gentle pulls". The first time they tried to move her with seven tugboats, the Coast Guard shut them down after she moved only 15 feet before the propellers dug into the silt. Seems the 24 years worth of silt around the hull and propellers had locked her in pretty tight. It took removing 39,000 cubic yards of silt over three weeks of dredging to get her out, this time with five tugboats. And that was after they'd already dredged out 16,000 cubic yards prior to the first attempt to move her.

Now that was in 2006. I'm sure it wasn't so bad in the mid-90s, but I'm not sure it would be easy either.

Some sources indicate that she no longer has her engines, but this is apparently contrary to US Navy policy. Beyond brief mention in news articles, I couldn't find anything concrete either way.
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:32 PM
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Actually Leg the one thing that I dont agree with is how fast the 49th's tank strength went down - the Mexicans werent attacking them and neither were the Russians. They were fighting marauders - but if you read Lone Star the average marauder is armed with at best machine guns and maybe Molotov's - and against a modern tank that is a one way ticket to a very lopsided victory by the tank, even against large numbers of such marauders.

By the way Leg you will find I am very open to new ideas and possibilities. I just hate direct contradictions - i.e. when one author says one thing and another says something different about supposedly the same events.

Oh and glad to see you are looking at my campaign story - I am putting it up not to blow my own horn but instead to have people see how my exposure as a player influenced my ideas about the game in general.

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Old 04-27-2012, 05:07 PM
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They were right to be worried, and it took a lot more than a "few gentle pulls". The first time they tried to move her with seven tugboats, the Coast Guard shut them down after she moved only 15 feet before the propellers dug into the silt. Seems the 24 years worth of silt around the hull and propellers had locked her in pretty tight. It took removing 39,000 cubic yards of silt over three weeks of dredging to get her out, this time with five tugboats. And that was after they'd already dredged out 16,000 cubic yards prior to the first attempt to move her.

Now that was in 2006. I'm sure it wasn't so bad in the mid-90s, but I'm not sure it would be easy either.

Some sources indicate that she no longer has her engines, but this is apparently contrary to US Navy policy. Beyond brief mention in news articles, I couldn't find anything concrete either way.
Ahh...did not know about the issue with the silt or the dredging.
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Old 04-28-2012, 12:11 AM
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The one thing that I dont agree with is how fast the 49th's tank strength went down - the Mexicans werent attacking them and neither were the Russians.
Don't forget there's a very strong expansionist NA presence, with airpower just over the state border in the Ozarks. Not to mention the probability of desertions. It's also probable the 49th contains NA sympathisers and agents (just like all US units) which will be willing, and able to worth from within to further the NA's aims.
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Old 04-28-2012, 05:46 PM
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I am ignoring Howling Wilderness as to how it affects the US military dispositions in some areas - for instance the 90th Corps - for one if it is pivotal to MilGov then why no new troops from the 43000 that landed in Norfolk? A bunch of troops would have gone there for sure - as it said those oil assets were critical for MilGov.

Now what it says about what happened in NE - that is very believeable with the picture that Last Submarine painted - frankly MilGov authority falling apart there is not only believeable but inevitable with only that one unit there.
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Old 04-28-2012, 11:00 PM
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Don't forget there's a very strong expansionist NA presence, with airpower just over the state border in the Ozarks. Not to mention the probability of desertions. It's also probable the 49th contains NA sympathisers and agents (just like all US units) which will be willing, and able to worth from within to further the NA's aims.
This I am gonna have to disagree: While on the whole, there might be something to what you say, and in some cases be spot on, this a is a case where your knowledge base puts you in the position I would be in if I was talking about things certain Aussie units would or wouldn't do.

The 49th is a Texan Unit. Not Texan as in, Based out of, but made up of Texans who view the Division as part of the greater whole of the US Army System only because they have to be - if they had their way (And the money to pay for it all) they would be a pure Texan Militia under no one's control other than the Governor. They believe they are the successors of all the Texan Units that date all the way back to when Texas was its own country, and before. And not as a Eastern Texas, or panhandle, or any of that, every time I dealt with them they was very strong on the Texan Unity Here to Serve and Defend All of Texas regardless sort of mentality.

If there is any unit in the entire US that views itself as a state militia more than a reserve for the Active Army more than the 49th - I don't know what it would be.

Yes, there might be a handful of NA folks in it. Yes, there would be desertions, but not to the degree that would be seen in other more adhoc units built up by combining various units from various states (the 49th Armoured is the *only* Armoured Division in the USANG that is solely made up of Texan Units) with the expected results in cohesion (IE, That SC NG General is sacrificing the Georgian units because he is trying to keep *his* states people intact... blah blah blah).
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Old 04-29-2012, 01:43 AM
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...this a is a case where your knowledge base puts you in the position I would be in if I was talking about things certain Aussie units would or wouldn't do.
You are quite probably right about that. However, I was mainly trying to illustrate how certain apparent discrepancies between resources can be explained by applying a little time, effort and logic. There's no need to ignore any of the published material if enough thought and consideration is put in, along with discussions just like this one with like minded Twilight enthusiasts.
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Old 04-29-2012, 03:59 PM
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If you take the 2300 point of view where Texas went its own way, I think it would argue for the 49th being more or less still a going concern: and *very* believable.

If you go to the State House, there is the lobby there in the inside. On the Centre of the lobby floor is the great seal of Texas, arranged around it, is all the other people that at one time or another claimed Texas as part of it: The US Seal is no larger or smaller than any of the others - with room for more.


Always thought it was a clever way to say something without actually saying it.
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:10 PM
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Actually Leg there is a great need to ignore the published material if it makes no sense - and the wasting away of the 49th is one place where it makes no sense - too many tanks and men gone in too short a time against forces that cannot seriously harm it.

This isnt an infantry division who doesnt belong in Texas getting bushwhacked by Texas marauders who know the land better than they do.

These are native Texans fighting on their own land, who know the terrain and where to fight and where not to fight. Its one thing if they were fighting Soviet armor and losing tanks - but not against Texan marauders.

There are a lot of things wrong with Howling Wildnerness but if I had to stake a claim on one of the most egregious things its what it tries to do to the 49th Armored.

Remember, like I said, this isnt a bunch of Idaho NG or NY National Guard units getting whipped or losing their morale fighting for land that isnt their own - this is their own home state, their own land and most importantly their own people they would be fighting for. The only defectors that would be happening would be Texian forces deserting to the 49th, not the other way around.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:13 AM
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Maybe the desertions are locals returning to their homes to defend them?

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Actually Leg there is a great need to ignore the published material if it makes no sense - and the wasting away of the 49th is one place where it makes no sense - too many tanks and men gone in too short a time against forces that cannot seriously harm it.

This isnt an infantry division who doesnt belong in Texas getting bushwhacked by Texas marauders who know the land better than they do.

These are native Texans fighting on their own land, who know the terrain and where to fight and where not to fight. Its one thing if they were fighting Soviet armor and losing tanks - but not against Texan marauders.

There are a lot of things wrong with Howling Wildnerness but if I had to stake a claim on one of the most egregious things its what it tries to do to the 49th Armored.

Remember, like I said, this isnt a bunch of Idaho NG or NY National Guard units getting whipped or losing their morale fighting for land that isnt their own - this is their own home state, their own land and most importantly their own people they would be fighting for. The only defectors that would be happening would be Texian forces deserting to the 49th, not the other way around.
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:08 AM
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Maybe the desertions are locals returning to their homes to defend them?
That makes perfect sense to me and goes a long way to explaining why the 49th deteriorate so quickly. As shown in the books, the 49th is away from home, the Mexicans have invaded, the Russians are in San Antonio, the countryside is in chaos and a number of areas have been nuked. Civil order has broken down and the law extends only as far as the end of a rifle barrel.

Many soldiers, having friends and family in this war zone, aren't going to like being stuck in another state fighting for other people when the situation at home is so grim. The fact that the entire Division is from Texas, and smaller units of battalion, company and even platoon size come from the same geographic regions or even towns is likely to work against the 49th staying together - entire subunits could well fade away in the night taking their vehicles with them to bolster their home towns defences.

In that light, even though they're all Texans, the 49th may well come apart even faster than units elsewhere made of of people from all over the country. Additionally, unlike many other units, home isn't beyond reach - a few weeks on foot could be sufficient to get them there, and Milgov isn't exactly in a position to chase after them.
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Old 04-30-2012, 06:42 AM
Graebarde Graebarde is offline
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Museum Carriers and locations:

USS Yorktown is located in Charleston, South Carolina and was a museum ship before the start of the Twilight war. I've been on it and it looked to me that she would need a lot of work to get it operational. At best it could operate as an adhoc helo/amphib ship.

USS Hornet is located in Alameda, California . I've been on it and it appeared to be in good condition. In 1970 she was decommissioned at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard Bremerton, WA. Didn't become a museum until 1996. Load it with some A-4s and helos, and the Grey Ghost could harass Mexican/Cuban forces in California, as long as the avgas lasts.

USS Intrepid is located in New York City, New York. Became a museum in the early '80s.

USS Midway is located in San Diego, California. I've been on it and it is in great shape. The ship was decommissioned in 1992, her sister ship Coral Sea was decommissioned the year before. In the Twilight war, both ships could conceivably be reactivated and operate F-18s and helos.

USS Lexington is located in Corpus Christi, Texas. Decommissioned in 1991, and made a museum in 1992. Presumably still serviceable for the Twilight war, the Blue Ghost could operate planes or helos in the Gulf of Mexico.
I don't know about the rest of the carriers as museums by the Lex is sunk in about 20 plus feet of mud, and was gutted well before becoming the museum. UNLESS they did a major yard on her, she wouldn't do much good. Also she is about a mile or two from the closest refinery on refinery row. While not physically damaged too badly I could she her listed in the mud and such an angle that it would probably not get moved post attack. No tugs big enough there to do the job for one thing, and major dredging to get her out of the muck. All that was brough in from NOLA IIRC when they planted her. I was living there at the time and it was big local news.
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