v4 Rules & Mechanics Discussion

[StainlessSteelCynic]

It seems to me that looking for supplies in the Free League reboot seems a bit too difficult.
If I understand it correctly, each hex is 10 kilometres but only one person can forage or hunt or scrounge or fish in a hex at a time.
The implication is that if others want to do so at the same time, then they need to wander off to another hex so that the characters end up about 10 klicks apart from each other - a profoundly stupid idea when you have hostile forces potentially in the vicinity.

Upon a success, you find one ration of food and I think you can only score up to two success. Living off the land seems to be so damned difficult I can't imagine anyone with real experience of being in the wilderness would find this game satisfying or enjoyable

I didn't really like the Year Zero rules to begin with and if anything, the rules they are hashing together for their reboot of T2k reinforces my bias against Year Zero rules.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

If I understand it correctly, each hex is 10 kilometres but only one person can forage or hunt or scrounge or fish in a hex at a time.

So in an area of 86.6 square kilometres, only one person can forage, hunt or whatever, and can find a max of 2 man-days of food.....
Right....
Sounds a little low even for somewhere like the central Sahara or inland Antarctica.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

So in an area of 86.6 square kilometres, only one person can forage, hunt or whatever, and can find a max of 2 man-days of food.....
Right....
Sounds a little low even for somewhere like the central Sahara or inland Antarctica.

Either Tomas and his guys have never foraged or hunted before or the game/wild berrries/etc. situation in the game is a hell of a lot worse than anything I have ever heard of - thats a hell of a lot of territory for such a little gain

[Raellus]

Maybe the scarcity is that areas near human habitations have been repeatedly picked over by scavengers, military and civilian. By 2000, anything within a few clicks of a settlement of any size would have been picked over real good. You'd have to be really skillful or lucky to find useable supplies, forage, or game.

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[StainlessSteelCynic]

I could agree if it was specifically stated that settlements and other obvious attractive targets for scavenging were mentioned but the rule appears to apply for every hex regardless of what is found in that hex.
From the talk I see on the Free League forum, the rule seems to be heavily influenced by one of their earlier games. However there appears to be some agreement that the rule works for the earlier game but seems overly harsh for a T2k setting.

[Legbreaker]

"Overly harsh"?
Hmm, seems like you're being too kind to them.

Even in populated areas there's still going to be plenty to find - overgrown and forgotten vegetable gardens, rabbits, rats, pigeons, and a host of other options we may turn our noses up to in better times.
And that doesn't even account for caches of canned or bottled food tucked away in odd places.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

So in an area of 86.6 square kilometres, only one person can forage, hunt or whatever, and can find a max of 2 man-days of food.....

Ok a math nut chime in here.

I have walked 70 miles (112km) in 20 hours (flat paved terrain). I'm gonna say that is near human max to allow for scanning for food (I know super endurance people would laugh at that number but they move too fast to forage). Assuming I could see 50 m in each direction (and spot a mushroom at that distance) and not allowing for ANY time for forage or hunt, that allows me to "cover" 11,200,000 meters.

86.6 Square Kilometers = 86,600,000 square meters so even with insanely exaggerated numbers it would take a minimum of 8 people to just scan the terrain, cursorily

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kato13

86.6 Square Kilometers = 86,600,000 square meters so even with insanely exaggerated numbers it would take a minimum of 8 people to just scan the terrain, cursorily

Yup, you're seeing the problem. That particular rule, if it's being reported accurately, is insanely bad. There are entire farms feeding many people that are less than 1% of the size of an FL hex. Even taking into account the possibility nobody is actively growing food or raising livestock anywhere in that area, there's no possible way 86 square Km couldn't feed an absolute host of people, except as I mentioned previously, in some very extreme circumstances.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by kato13

Ok a math nut chime in here.

I have walked 70 miles (112km) in 20 hours (flat paved terrain). I'm gonna say that is near human max to allow for scanning for food (I know super endurance people would laugh at that number but they move too fast to forage). Assuming I could see 50 m in each direction (and spot a mushroom at that distance) and not allowing for ANY time for forage or hunt, that allows me to "cover" 11,200,000 meters.

86.6 Square Kilometers = 86,600,000 square meters so even with insanely exaggerated numbers it would take a minimum of 8 people to just scan the terrain, cursorily

That gives a very good perspective on the situation. I am left to wonder if Free League have done their thing simply for gameplay purposes without any deeper considerations taken into account.
I know from my own experience that when foraging for mushrooms and berries in the Australian bushland, we had multiple people pick over one spot because there was always the chance that one person spots something the first person missed.
And we weren't spreading out over a 10 kilometre area to do so, we probably foraged an area no more than a few kilometres for half a morning or thereabouts (so in game terms say, roughly one to two 4 hour periods).

And the Australian bushland does not have the amount of wild food freely growing that you could expect in Europe but we still left sites without finding all the wild food that was there. How do I know? Because other people would go to the same site the next day and come back with the foodstuffs we missed.

[Legbreaker]

Maybe it's intentional? A badly thought out mechanic to keep PCs on the move?
Yeah, I don't think so either.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Maybe it's intentional? A badly thought out mechanic to keep PCs on the move?

That actually makes a lot of sense. Hasn't FL described their approach to T2k as a "hex crawl"? I have a sense of what a hex crawl is, but I'm not sure I really grasp the concept, or see an obvious connection to traditional T2k RPG'ing. Hopefully, someone here can explain it to me.

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[pansarskott]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Maybe it's intentional? A badly thought out mechanic to keep PCs on the move?

That would fit in with the rules for encounters when players ares stationary. Those rules are ambiguous when it comes to spotting (implies automatic discovery of PCs), and encounters get more severe as time passes.

[Southernap]

Originally Posted by pansarskott

That would fit in with the rules for encounters when players ares stationary. Those rules are ambiguous when it comes to spotting (implies automatic discovery of PCs), and encounters get more severe as time passes.

Reading the part about stationary players, seems like they are forcing the players to keep move all under the assumption that there are enough Russians and hostile Polish troopers to round up all the fleeing NATO troops.

The risk of being stationary seems directly opposite of what is supposed to happen when you need to brew up a still of alcohol fuel. Since if you have a small still you can only produce 5 liters of fuel per shift. While a larger still can produce a 50/liters a shift. Or fight hunger or find that part to fix the vehicle you have.

With a Hummer taking 95 liters of fuel, an M113 taking 360 liters, a couple of the Swedes vehicles taking 80-100 liters. Taking a quick look at the vehicle stats.

So the way they have the rules written, you move. Roll an encounter, set a watch, brew up fuel, forage for the next movement to the next hex and run out of fuel again, repeat steps 1 through 4. Oh and you have to have a body that can watch the still as well. So there is less than two PCs out of your team that need to stay by the base camp.

Makes no sense. Then combine that with the rules that rest does a body good to heal from wounds and stress. Means your watch you set might as well be the most broken PC in the team at the moment. With the still operator as the 2nd most broke team member. While all the more able body folks run through foraging, fishing, hunting, whatever per a shift.

Unless I am misreading these rules or misunderstanding the intent here. Seems like the idea is forcing the PCs to be on the move almost constantly and that someone in the group will always have stress on their person.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

It seems to me that looking for supplies in the Free League reboot seems a bit too difficult.
If I understand it correctly, each hex is 10 kilometres but only one person can forage or hunt or scrounge or fish in a hex at a time.
The implication is that if others want to do so at the same time, then they need to wander off to another hex so that the characters end up about 10 klicks apart from each other - a profoundly stupid idea when you have hostile forces potentially in the vicinity.

Upon a success, you find one ration of food and I think you can only score up to two success. Living off the land seems to be so damned difficult I can't imagine anyone with real experience of being in the wilderness would find this game satisfying or enjoyable

I didn't really like the Year Zero rules to begin with and if anything, the rules they are hashing together for their reboot of T2k reinforces my bias against Year Zero rules.

This sounds like a direct lift from MUTANT:YEAR ZERO. The nearly universal houserule is to reset the hex size from 10Km to 1Km and drop the success limits. I still have issues with MUTANT... BUT I haven't played it yet. Still, it's close enough to SHADOWRUN that it all looks familiar to me (as a dice pool system).

[Raellus]

Received an e-mail informing backers that the Beta has been delayed to continue revising background and rules. I choose to look at this as a positive development.

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[Legbreaker]

Meanwhile, there has been zero observable work done on the documents since the kickstarter.
Now tell me they're working hard on producing a good product and have listened to feedback.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Now tell me they're working hard on producing a good product and have listened to feedback.

I can't tell you what I don't know. Do you know something that the rest of us do not?

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Meanwhile, there has been zero observable work done on the documents since the kickstarter.

What is the above comment in reference to? AFAIK, no one outside the project team is able to view changes to the alpha as they are made. It's not a Google Doc.

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[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

It's not a Google Doc.
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Yes, it is actually and a handful of people can see it.

[Tegyrius]

Did that handful of people sign nondisclosure agreements? If so, those people might want to review their NDAs to ensure they aren’t violating them by discussing the status of the development and revision process without authorization from the line developer.

- C.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Yes, it is actually and a handful of people can see it.

I suppose it's possible that the dev's are lying to the backers, and that no significant work has been or is being done on the project.

Is it not more likely that one of the current/active dev's simply made a copy of the Google Doc and shared it with only other current/active dev's (who presumably abide by NDA's), and that you are no longer privy to the work?

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