Poland After OMEGA

[Raellus]

Back on topic, I'm putting together a map of unit locations in Poland during the winter of 2000-2001.

The U.S. XI Corps controls a good chunk of NW Poland. Not far from this enclave is the town of Pila, listed as the seat of the "Polish Free Congress". This PFC controls a couple of Polish military units, including a fairly powerful MRD.

AKAIK, the PFC is not described in detail anywhere. Due to its physical proximity to XI Corps' redoubt, I think its fairly safe to assume that a cooperative relationship between the two entities (i.e. that it is pro-western/anti-Soviet).

Did I miss something. Do any of you know of any canonical references to this PFC?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Back OT, I'm putting together a map of unit locations in Poland during the winter of 2000-2001.

I did this very exercise about a week or two ago on paper, at least as far as they'd gotten by October - November. I'll email it to you when I get a chance.
Most units are shown to be in almost the same locations as at 01JUL00. Taking it a bit further, those units mentioned in the Return series are shown to have moved very little - no more than about 100km.
By November I would think most units not already in cantonments would be looking around seriously for somewhere to shelter over winter. Any move would likely have to wait until spring 2001.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I did this very exercise about a week or two ago on paper, at least as far as they'd gotten by October - November. I'll email it to you when I get a chance.
Most units are shown to be in almost the same locations as at 01JUL00. Taking it a bit further, those units mentioned in the Return series are shown to have moved very little - no more than about 100km.
By November I would think most units not already in cantonments would be looking around seriously for somewhere to shelter over winter. Any move would likely have to wait until spring 2001.

True, regarding unit locations. My map will also include unit "loyalty" info as well. What has changed by winter 2000 is that many units are either no longer accepting orders from higher HQ or are still loyal but unwilling to take offensive action. A few seem to have hunkered down with plans to become a particular locality's permanent militia.

This info will be helpful in charting out how Poland might look further on down the line.

[Legbreaker]

My focus has been on charting unit loyalties and strengths leading up to summer of 2000. If I can track that and their positions, I can judge what Pact commanders might have thought about the possible offensive options available to them and come up with a plan that might actually have worked (if Nato hadn't jumped first).

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

My focus has been on charting unit loyalties and strengths leading up to summer of 2000. If I can track that and their positions, I can judge what Pact commanders might have thought about the possible offensive options available to them and come up with a plan that might actually have worked (if Nato hadn't jumped first).

Cool. My focus is more on Poland after the bulk of the NATO forces pull out.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Back on topic, I'm putting together a map of unit locations in Poland during the winter of 2000-2001.

The U.S. XI Corps controls a good chunk of NW Poland. Not far from this enclave is the town of Pila, listed as the seat of the "Polish Free Congress". This PFC controls a couple of Polish military units, including a fairly powerful MRD.

AKAIK, the PFC is not described in detail anywhere. Due to its physical proximity to XI Corps' redoubt, I think its fairly safe to assume that a cooperative relationship between the two entities (i.e. that it is pro-western/anti-Soviet).

Did I miss something. Do any of you know of any canonical references to this PFC?

The PFC was formed in 1997 when NATO moved into Poland. Lot of the members of this government were the remains of the Polish Government in Exile that has/was based in London since WWII even though it was recognized as such since the end of WWII due to treaties, IIRC. It one of the those things if you not specifically looking for it, was easy to overlook.

Either way it was an organization that NATO propped up and inserted inside Poland during the Offensive and it remained in Poland after the withdraw being supported by NATO and their special operation units and intel networks. I don't think they worked well with the Germans though. As for working with French, it will be 50-50 chance especially if I am correct and they were based in London.

[Legbreaker]

So basically the PFC is little more than a Nato propaganda tool, or puppet at best....

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

The PFC was formed in 1997 when NATO moved into Poland. Lot of the members of this government were the remains of the Polish Government in Exile that has/was based in London since WWII even though it was recognized as such since the end of WWII due to treaties, IIRC. It one of the those things if you not specifically looking for it, was easy to overlook.

Either way it was an organization that NATO propped up and inserted inside Poland during the Offensive and it remained in Poland after the withdraw being supported by NATO and their special operation units and intel networks. I don't think they worked well with the Germans though. As for working with French, it will be 50-50 chance especially if I am correct and they were based in London.

Wikipedia has a page on the Polish Government in Exile. Must confess that whilst I was aware it had existed during WW2, I'd no idea it carried on after the end of the War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_government-in-exile

Sounds like it was a fairly low key organisation even during the Cold War...

On another matter, anyone given any thought to what influence the Pope might play? IRL John Paul II didn't die until 2005, so may still be alive in the T2K timeline - I've always liked the idea of him being offered sanctuary in either France or Switzerland.

I'd have thought that having the support of John Paul II would be a huge boost for any faction in Poland. Even those who don't have any support (such as King Julian) might claim that they did have the Pope's backing as a way to increase their popularity.

Presumably it wouldn't be too difficult to produce forged letters, get a tame Priest, dress him in Cardinal's robes and produce him to the people, where he says that he has come from wherever the Pope happens to be with a message from the Holy Father recognising Julian (or whoever) as the legitimate ruler of Poland...

[Adm.Lee]

Where he is depends on the Italian government, mostly. A pope going into France has a really, really bad precedent (look up anti-pope, Avignon, etc.), but Switzerland is possible, if he felt he had to leave Rome. It doesn't seem like something he would do, though.

I do agree, having the Pope's (or even a Cardinal's) blessing would be HUGE for a Polish ruler-to-be. Someone missing from Krakow would be the Archbishop there-- in the days of the monarchy, the Primate would stand in for the King between the death of one and the election of the next.

Given the anti-Communist stance of the Polish Church, I suspect once the war started, the Polish government cracked down on the church pretty hard, driving the hierarchy and parish priests into hiding or prison. I bet many of the warlords emerging (Julian, Krakow, PFC, etc.) would re-open churches as soon as possible, to gain loyalty of the people.


Re: the Polish Free Congress: I didn't think there was anything linking them to the WW2 Government in Exile, but I could be wrong. Given the relative power levels and living conditions of France and Britain in 2000-01, it could be easy for the French to win some or all of the London element to come to Paris.

[Raellus]

Perhaps the Pope spoke out actively against Poland's involvement in the USSR's war against China or supported Polish exiles after the war began in Europe. Perhaps the Soviet government pressed newly allied Italy to turn the Polish pope over or perhaps the church hierarchy feared a KGB or GRU assassination plot, either aided or abetted by the Italian government. Perhaps the KGB approached some cardinals who wanted to depose the Pope and install someone more to their liking and promised to help get him out of the way. Either way, the Pope and his aides decided it would be safer to move their operations to neutral Switzerland.

[Raellus]

Back to U.S. XI Corps. Why do you think SACEUR gave up hope of recovering them during OMEGA? I understand that XI Corps may have had good reason to stay put but those divisions represent significant combat power and it seems odd that the architects of Omega would just write them off.

Could the XI Corps have expressed CivGov sympathies? Could their "abandonment" have been a political move?

The presence of the Polish Free Congress in nearby Pila could be a clue. MilGov was essentially abandoning the PFC to its own devices. What if CivGov made the PFC an offer of direct assistance. Perhaps CivGov saw an opportunity to maintain a military presence in Europe. XI Corps plus the Polish forces loyal to the PFC could create a relatively powerful, pro-western, pro-CivGov enclave in NW Poland- an American bridgehead in Europe, of sorts.

[Raellus]

I'm working on my operational map for Poland during the winter of 2000-2001 again and I thought I'd resurrect this thread instead of starting another.

Originally Posted by Raellus

Back to U.S. XI Corps. Why do you think SACEUR gave up hope of recovering them during OMEGA? I understand that XI Corps may have had good reason to stay put but those divisions represent significant combat power and it seems odd that the architects of Omega would just write them off.

Could the XI Corps have expressed CivGov sympathies? Could their "abandonment" have been a political move?

The presence of the Polish Free Congress in nearby Pila could be a clue. MilGov was essentially abandoning the PFC to its own devices. What if CivGov made the PFC an offer of direct assistance. Perhaps CivGov saw an opportunity to maintain a military presence in Europe. XI Corps plus the Polish forces loyal to the PFC could create a relatively powerful, pro-western, pro-CivGov enclave in NW Poland- an American bridgehead in Europe, of sorts.

Going Home states that "The XI Corps was cut off from higher headquarters after the Pact counteroffensive of July, and has remained in its positions out of necessity rather than by choice. It has been written off by USAEUR. The XI US Corps HQ staff is currently wintering in Kolobrzeg, Poland, along with the remnants of the 50th US AD. As of the beginning of the adventure, word of the evacuation has just arrived. Most of the Corps' personnel will decide to remain in place rather than risk the journey to Bremerhaven." (Going Home, p. 14)

This suggests that powerful Pact forces stand between XI Corps and Bremerhaven prior to and during Operation Omega. However, no Pact forces in Going Home or any other canonical source list any Pact forces in that area. It's a straight shot from Kolobrzeg west into Germany, with absolutely no enemy forces standing in the way.

What gives? Where and what is the ghost PACT army that's standing in the way of XI Corps and Bremerhaven? Is there another explanation for XI Corp's decision to stay behind in Poland instead of participating in the evacuation?

I have a slightly non-canonical explanation (see the embedded post quote above) but I'm wondering what if ya'll can come up with another plausible explanation.

[Legbreaker]

WWIII is a mess.

It's a conflict involving far more than just two sides. For example, just because Italy is fighting Nato doesn't mean they're allied to the Soviets and in fact I wouldn't be suprised if Pact forces and the Italians were put into the same room, there'd be bloodshed (or at least harsh words).

This is one of the issues facing Nato when they chose to run the Greek blockade and deliver badly needed supplies to Turkey in 97. Suddenly the war in central Europe was on two fronts against two seperate and essentially unassociated enemies.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Where he is depends on the Italian government, mostly. A pope going into France has a really, really bad precedent (look up anti-pope, Avignon, etc.), but Switzerland is possible, if he felt he had to leave Rome. It doesn't seem like something he would do, though.

I do agree, having the Pope's (or even a Cardinal's) blessing would be HUGE for a Polish ruler-to-be. Someone missing from Krakow would be the Archbishop there-- in the days of the monarchy, the Primate would stand in for the King between the death of one and the election of the next.

Given the anti-Communist stance of the Polish Church, I suspect once the war started, the Polish government cracked down on the church pretty hard, driving the hierarchy and parish priests into hiding or prison. I bet many of the warlords emerging (Julian, Krakow, PFC, etc.) would re-open churches as soon as possible, to gain loyalty of the people.


Re: the Polish Free Congress: I didn't think there was anything linking them to the WW2 Government in Exile, but I could be wrong. Given the relative power levels and living conditions of France and Britain in 2000-01, it could be easy for the French to win some or all of the London element to come to Paris.

Don't forget his health -- by (IRL) 2000, John Paul IIs Parkinson's Syndrome was quite advanced, though being hidden as much as possible by his colleagues. There could actually be a return to the Europe of days past, when armed conflict broke out over who was or would be Pope, and more than one person claiming to be Pope, each with their own screaming, gun-waving followers.