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  #1  
Old 11-30-2018, 01:29 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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Default Cost of a Base

This Page https://www.sara-tx.org/public-infor...past-projects/ has a lot of information on The San Antonio River flood diversion tunnel. At 3 miles long and over 24 feet in diameter this is a really good model for the manned bases with a frozen team I've been working on. This project cost over 110 million dollars. This is also about the smallest size for Prime Base, if the test campaign with three levels is used as a benchmark. Camp Century had around 2 miles of tunnels and 200 persons on staff, for another benchmark.

From this we can see that a Project with a dozen bases, perhaps including Prime and Alternative Prime would cost in the low billions of dollars, maybe 10 billion as a cap.

Project Azorian, which was the attempt to raise Soviet submarine K-129 cost about 800 million dollars (in 1970s dollars not 1990s dollars). It is around an order of magnitude less. From the sinking of K-129 in 1968 to the revealing of the story by Anderson in 1975 was around 6 years. Not only did the US media have information but the Soviets did as well, although their experts believed the salvage was either impossible or highly unlikely and they didn't act aggressively on that prospect.

I'm not sure what this says about budgets and costs and operational security but does at least give some figures for period projects.
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Old 11-30-2018, 01:59 PM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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I hate to say this, but to fully fund the Project, on any useful scale, then we are looking at trillions, just in R&D, equipment purchases and recruiting. Just thinking about the financial hoops that the CoT had to.jump through, makes my head hurt!
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Old 11-30-2018, 03:13 PM
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I hate to say this, but to fully fund the Project, on any useful scale, then we are looking at trillions, just in R&D, equipment purchases and recruiting. Just thinking about the financial hoops that the CoT had to.jump through, makes my head hurt!
Agreed 1000%. Single-digit trillions would be my lowball estimate. I always assumed that BEM gave the CoT everything from general business guidance to specific stock tips to help finance this thing, and that "how long it will take to finance this" was even part of the decision on how far back he needed to go to get things started.
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Old 11-30-2018, 05:49 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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Trillions?

Here are the budgets for the entire United States Department of Defense between 1960 and 1989. This is in hundreds of billions of dollars. In 29 years this is around 10 trillion dollars. This funds EVERYTHING including the Vietnam War, R&D for hundreds if not thousands of projects, pay all the various uniformed service members, buy some aircraft carriers, thousands of high-performance aircraft and tens of thousands of helicopter. So the project, which might have 50,000 people and a few hundred or even thousand vehicles and weapons would send the same amount? Why would the Project cost as much as the entire DoD budget over the same period?

1960 344.3
1961 344.0
1962 363.4
1963 368.0
1964 364.4
1965 333.1
1966 356.2
1967 412.0
1968 $449.3
1969 438.1
1970 406.3
1971 370.6
1972 343.8
1973 313.3
1974 299.7
1975 293.3
1976 283.8
1977 286.2
1978 286.5
1979 $295.6
1980 303.4
1981 317.4
1982 339.4
1983 366.7
1984 381.7
1985 405.4
1986 426.6
1987 427.9
1988 426.4
1989 427.7
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Old 11-30-2018, 09:09 PM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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[QUOTE=tsofian;79988]Trillions?

Here are the budgets for the entire United States Department of Defense between 1960 and 1989. This is in hundreds of billions of dollars. In 29 years this is around 10 trillion dollars. This funds EVERYTHING including the Vietnam War, R&D for hundreds if not thousands of projects, pay all the various uniformed service members, buy some aircraft carriers, thousands of high-performance aircraft and tens of thousands of helicopter. So the project, which might have 50,000 people and a few hundred or even thousand vehicles and weapons would send the same amount? Why would the Project cost as much as the entire DoD budget over the same period? /QUOTE]

I can only speak for my own little heresy...

I don't have a time traveling Bruce, so I attempt to base my version of the Project on what IMO are likely scenarios. I start with the CoT forming about the same time as the Soviet development of an atomic weapon, which provides the initial boost for the Project. With no time travel, they have to develop fusion power and cryo technology almost from scratch. Add additional medical research into the Projects various wonder drugs, the acquisition of property, equipment, vehicles, then toss in widespread construction of everything from supply caches all the way to Prime Base. The Project also requires satellites and rockets, even spread over thirty odd years, you are still talking about an obscene amount of money, so yes billions, and I'm comfortable with stating trillions.
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Old 12-01-2018, 09:59 AM
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Since I am at my computer now and not on my phone, let me go into a little more detail.

You could do TMP cheaper... provided you cut out a lot of stuff. And I mean a LOT. Ultimately, the only technology genuinely NEEDED for the Project is cryogenics, but everything you cut out makes a near-impossible task even harder, and after a while it gets to the point where you are just tilting at windmills.

Also, when I say trillions, I am speaking in 2018 currency - I have not accounted for inflation.

There are three major contributing factors that I see as leading to the cost of the Project:

1) Technological advancement. BEM brings back prototypes of advanced technologies, but that is really little more than a sales gimmick. Someone still needs to invent them and develop them, because time travel doesn't allow for knowledge to come from nowhere. And then you have to invent all the supporting technologies (and there are a LOT) that support all those inventions.

Take the portable laser weapon described in 3ed. Right now, state of the art laser technology would cost me a cool million for a laser that is the right size, but is nowhere near powerful enough to serve as a weapon. Then I would need to add the environmental controls (so that it doesn't melt itself) and a battery pack that would make state of the art modern batteries and capacitors look like something that came out of a pyramid. Heck, we had to tear a small satellite apart because the launch got delayed by a year and we knew that our batteries would have degraded too much in that short amount of time to be viable for the mission duration. And those were expensive, expensive batteries.

Or fusion power. We have already spent many, many billions on fusion power and are not within a century of what TMP needs. Forget about the fusion packs for a moment and consider just the one type of fusion reactor the Project most needs - a unit sized for vehicles with enough power to operate the vehicle and its subsystems, with enough fuel for at least a couple of years. That requires incredible work to first develop the impossible and then develop the advanced materials and techniques required to miniaturize them all.

Add to that the cost of developing all of the tools needed to make all this stuff, because that often gets disregarded. I could make a truly amazing laser right now... if someone would only invent a way to manufacture optical antenna arrays at lambda/2 spacing, and ways to efficiently produce the kind of precision optics. Tooling get surprisingly expensive.

And while people often think that they can use civilian costs for comparison, you really can't. You're buying for an effort that cannot afford for equipment to fail, because it might not be replaceable and someone might die when it breaks. It needs to last a looooooong time on the shelf and work perfectly when you need it. It needs to operate with minimal maintenance and parts, in conditions where you can expect ash, and radioactivity, and combat conditions. This stuff is expensive.

2) The size of the Project. 50,000 people in the Project? If we go with the assumption that 40,000 of those are in field teams, and that there are an average of 8 people per team, that is 5,000 field teams. Each one needs their own bolthole, 6 unique caches, and at least 1 vehicle (preferably two, given the dispersion of the Project). Each bolthole has a fusion reactor, as does each vehicle, so that is 10,000+ compact fusion reactors, 35,000 excavations, and 5,000+ large, militarized vehicles that need to be acquired and modified.

By the way, do you know how many of those vehicles currently exist? Acquiring thousands of militarized vehicles is not something you do off the surplus market, because there aren't that many surplus vehicles available! The ones that ARE available are often being sold because they are near the end of their useful lives - not something you want to buy and then expect to use every day for the next 20 years!

You also need to identify, recruit, and train at least 50,000 people to a degree that will probably be on par with special operations training costs of ~$250k each - that's $12.5B ignoring the recruiting costs. You need to pay them at least until they "die", along with the untold thousands who will work for the Project without ever seeing the inside of a bolthole.

You need more than a hundreds thousand firearms, plus ammunition and accessories. 50,000 CBR kits. How many Science One vehicle are out there, and how much do THEY cost??

The scale is daunting.

3) The secrecy. This serves as a cost multiplier for everything out there. Buying a hundred V-150's and getting them discretely into boltholes is going to be stupid hard. It is going to take bribes, and misdirection, and evading massive government organizations specifically looking for this kind of skullduggery. Doing all that research is going to require building your own labs and finding scientists not only willing to do the work but also willing to keep it all secret (no publishing???). Ordinary security for a classified project adds significantly to the cost of the program, and TMP needs the kind of security that would make the Manhatten Project look like an open air forum. It would be like doing the Manhatten Project, a hundred times larger, as Americans, in Berlin.

Going to the example in your original post, a 3 mile tunnel 24' in diameter... What is the cost of doing THAT in secret? The cost of mineral rights, the cost of evading mining inspectors, the cost of covering up the purpose of the dig, the cost of disposing of the 7 million cf of dirt and rock, the cost of discreetly turning a tunnel into a bomb shelter, the cost of loading all the vehicles and equipment, etc?

So yes, I'll stick with trillions. Scale things drastically back, get rid of every single bit of non-existing technology possible, and you could do it cheaper. But your chances of success, heck, your chances of getting to the war without being discovered and dismantled, get lower with every dollar. And at some point, TMP turns into a pipe dream, a bunch of survivalists with a pie-in-the-sky goal that could never be accomplished in their lifetimes.

Last edited by cosmicfish; 12-01-2018 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 12-01-2018, 10:26 AM
cosmicfish cosmicfish is offline
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Also, I would suggest approaching this from the other direction - not "what will this cost" so much as "what can we afford"? Figure out how much money the Project could discretely steer, and then spend it. Because TMP requires every penny you can possibly throw at it and then a whole lot more.

General Dynamics is currently making ~$30B in revenues, ~$6B in profits a year. If the Project were to pull $1B a year out of it by redirecting engineering efforts, running extra units off production lines, straight-up cooking the books, it could probably be concealed. Heck, $3B a year might be possible. And that might be just one CEO on the CoT.

The global stock market has huge success stories that someone who travelled in time could leverage. How much could the Project have made by investing early in Facebook, or Google, or Amazon? Divide those investments between enough parties and there is nothing to track.

How much can be made off of knowing where oil reserves are located, or when hurricanes will occur, or what movies are going to be blockbusters, or what numbers will win the PowerBall and what states allow you to claim anonymously?

Seriously, the biggest challenge of the finance wing of the Project is not going to be getting the money, it's going to be laundering it. And done correctly, considering the nature of the Project, that should not unmanageable.
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Old 12-01-2018, 11:30 AM
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So money is not the problem. Recruiting, training and freezing the correct people that the Project could rely on 99.99% of the personnel would, and this is a primary value the Project looks for during recruitment, would follow the tenants of the project. Personal integrity is the key.
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Old 12-01-2018, 01:16 PM
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Agreed. For a 50,000 person active Project, people and secrecy are the problems, not money. A project that make thousands of vehicular fusion reactors and tens of thousands of freeze tubes has money to spend on pouring concrete.
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Old 12-01-2018, 08:31 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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50,000 people over a 29 year period is less than 2,000 people a year. There are about 5,000 colleges and universities in the USA. There were almost 6 million students. Even if only this population is used as a pool (which it is not) that means if a graduate from only half the college and university graduating classes is selected each year they will meet quota.


Every year in the USA hundreds of thousands of people are reported missing. Most of them are found but this still means that plenty of people disappear every year, plenty to cover 2,000 MP volunteers.

Let's look at a similar organization-Peace Corps
The Peace Corps has had 230,000 Americans involved and their current numbers look like this
Current number of Volunteers and trainees: 7,376
Gender: 63% female, 37% male
Marital status: 98% single, 2% married
Minorities: 32% of Volunteers (excludes non-responders)
Average age: 28
Volunteers over age 50: 6%

So they average about 4,000 people per year.

Its a question of selection. How do you determine who to enroll that will be a good fit for the project and keep its secrets until they are frozen. Once they are frozen they aren't a security risk any longer. The CIA and FBI both recruit and train a larger number of people than the Project. In addition the uniformed services also recruit folks who have special trust placed in them. Yes a tiny fraction of these people turn or just blab, but an amazingly small fraction do that.
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:33 PM
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I don't think anyone is saying there aren't enough recruits to fill quotas, we are just saying that getting them will be difficult. I know there is gold and oil and diamonds out there in the world, that doesn't mean I can take a shovel into my backyard and make millions.

Morrow candidates need to be in good health, physically fit, intelligent, educated, and, most importantly, willing to abandon t everyone and everything they know to be cryogenically frozen, instead of reporting the crazy people with the guns and tanks to the government. That will take time and effort to find, and that means money. Not the biggest chunk of the money, but still a substantial amount.
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:12 PM
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If you use a SSBI clearance investigation as a baseline, you're looking at $4400 per person in 2011 dollars. I'd double that to account for the psych evals needed.
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Old 12-03-2018, 09:08 PM
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If you use a SSBI clearance investigation as a baseline, you're looking at $4400 per person in 2011 dollars. I'd double that to account for the psych evals needed.
My employer had the total rate at $30k for the investigation, but much of that cost is borne by the government. And that is just the investigation, not counting recruiting costs. In practice, TMP would be much more expensive.
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Old 12-04-2018, 06:33 AM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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My employer had the total rate at $30k for the investigation, but much of that cost is borne by the government. And that is just the investigation, not counting recruiting costs. In practice, TMP would be much more expensive.
The cost of such things has risen considerable, not counting inflation. There is so much more data available on a person now, so many more things to check. in the period from 1960-1990 a security clearance didn't have to check credit scores, on line sources, social media. In addition people tended to be less mobile and do less job hopping, which makes a background check a lot simpler.
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:09 AM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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[

1) Technological advancement. BEM brings back prototypes of advanced technologies, but that is really little more than a sales gimmick. Someone still needs to invent them and develop them, because time travel doesn't allow for knowledge to come from nowhere. And then you have to invent all the supporting technologies (and there are a LOT) that support all those inventions.

Take the portable laser weapon described in 3ed. Right now, state of the art laser technology would cost me a cool million for a laser that is the right size, but is nowhere near powerful enough to serve as a weapon. Then I would need to add the environmental controls (so that it doesn't melt itself) and a battery pack that would make state of the art modern batteries and capacitors look like something that came out of a pyramid. Heck, we had to tear a small satellite apart because the launch got delayed by a year and we knew that our batteries would have degraded too much in that short amount of time to be viable for the mission duration. And those were expensive, expensive batteries.

Or fusion power. We have already spent many, many billions on fusion power and are not within a century of what TMP needs. Forget about the fusion packs for a moment and consider just the one type of fusion reactor the Project most needs - a unit sized for vehicles with enough power to operate the vehicle and its subsystems, with enough fuel for at least a couple of years. That requires incredible work to first develop the impossible and then develop the advanced materials and techniques required to miniaturize them all.

Add to that the cost of developing all of the tools needed to make all this stuff, because that often gets disregarded. I could make a truly amazing laser right now... if someone would only invent a way to manufacture optical antenna arrays at lambda/2 spacing, and ways to efficiently produce the kind of precision optics. Tooling get surprisingly expensive.

And while people often think that they can use civilian costs for comparison, you really can't. You're buying for an effort that cannot afford for equipment to fail, because it might not be replaceable and someone might die when it breaks. It needs to last a looooooong time on the shelf and work perfectly when you need it. It needs to operate with minimal maintenance and parts, in conditions where you can expect ash, and radioactivity, and combat conditions. This stuff is expensive.

2) The size of the Project. 50,000 people in the Project? If we go with the assumption that 40,000 of those are in field teams, and that there are an average of 8 people per team, that is 5,000 field teams. Each one needs their own bolthole, 6 unique caches, and at least 1 vehicle (preferably two, given the dispersion of the Project). Each bolthole has a fusion reactor, as does each vehicle, so that is 10,000+ compact fusion reactors, 35,000 excavations, and 5,000+ large, militarized vehicles that need to be acquired and modified.
[/QUOTE]

You make a lot of assumptions that I don't see as being the only path forward. If Bruce is smart he will bring back tech items that can be made with the manufacturing technology of the 1960s-1970s. For a person with the genius of Bruce it would be obvious that bringing back anything that requires a huge investment in new technology or exotic tooling is going to increase costs and reduce security.

I look at it this way. A 16 year old kid can turn smoke detectors into a functioning neutron gun in a shed in his mom's back yard using nothing but simple tools. It cost Billions of dollars to run the Manhattan Project, but once the basic principals and materials were discovered the investment has been made and the science and technology may possibly be produced more easily, more cheaply and on a different scale.

If I was Bruce I'd either have items specifically designed in the future for construction in a series of war surplus factories in 1965 or at least ensure that all the really hard R&D had been done. For all we know a fusion reactor could cost no more than a jet engine, or even no more than a high end Color TV set.

As for land purchases. If this was my project I'd buy up land right off the go. Land won't get any cheaper. Any surplus can probably be sold at a profit. A bolt hole will be expensive to build and fairly large but a cache is about the size of a basement for a standard house, or even smaller. Until they get loaded up they are just concrete boxes in the ground. There are huge numbers of such things serving dozens of purposes all across the civilized world. No one really notices them.


If the project bought up a lot of form military land no one is even going to wonder about concrete boxes in the ground, unless they find a bolt hole. In fact buying up former military property during this period makes a huge amount of sense. Here is a site that has a list of abandoned airfields, many of which are ex military from WW2. http://www.airfields-freeman.com/

I'd have to ask folks from CAMP (Council on America's Military Past http://campjamp.org/ -which used to stand for Council of Abandoned Military Posts) for a good list.

Advantages
Many in the middle of no place
Often are already fenced and secure locations
May have bunkers that can be converted into caches or bolt holes
Digging can be explained as removing UXO, waste, or demolishing bunkers and other structures
Cheap
If areas can be marked as impact areas they can be easily restricted
located all over the place, in every state

If digging takes place before the EPA is created in 1970 there will be no restrictions. A lot of these bases don't even get looked at, if they have been yet, until the last 25 years, so well after the war in classic.

This won't solve all the land issues and the issues around building infrastructure but it can help out a lot.
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Old 12-04-2018, 09:52 AM
Desert Mariner Desert Mariner is offline
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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
The cost of such things has risen considerable, not counting inflation. There is so much more data available on a person now, so many more things to check. in the period from 1960-1990 a security clearance didn't have to check credit scores, on line sources, social media. In addition people tended to be less mobile and do less job hopping, which makes a background check a lot simpler.
Conversely, costs are reduced in some areas because of the glut of online information. Where you had to have investigators on the ground performing exhaustive individual interviews, you now can get the big picture by "Google it".
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Old 12-05-2018, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
The cost of such things has risen considerable, not counting inflation. There is so much more data available on a person now, so many more things to check. in the period from 1960-1990 a security clearance didn't have to check credit scores, on line sources, social media. In addition people tended to be less mobile and do less job hopping, which makes a background check a lot simpler.
A couple of data points:
  • In the late 1980s I was working at Wells Fargo student loans, a few times a year we had visits from the Defense Investigative Service checking on all the information on certain students' loan application paperwork (the references, addresses, etc.)
  • My brother was in the Army in the mid-1980s, and had a Secret or maybe Top Secret clearance ... the background investigation included investigators speaking with people who'd paid him to mow their lawns during high school.
  • I'm pretty sure the DIS checked TRW, TransUnion, and other credit score systems back then, too ... we had a little terminal for those agencies in the student loan center at the time.
A possible added complication: the Morrow Project's background check is in many cases being performed on someone who doesn't know it's happening, and thus isn't cooperating.

In our current campaign it's presumed that the Morrow Project is "piggybacking" on government background checks of Council of Tomorrow corporate employees for a lot of the clearances.

--
Michael B.
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Old 12-05-2018, 03:03 AM
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A possible added complication: the Morrow Project's background check is in many cases being performed on someone who doesn't know it's happening, and thus isn't cooperating.

In our current campaign it's presumed that the Morrow Project is "piggybacking" on government background checks of Council of Tomorrow corporate employees for a lot of the clearances.
In my games, I often have the players hired into one of Morrow Industries defense technology divisions, helps when the government handles those security background checks...
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Old 12-05-2018, 05:06 AM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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Just a thought (quit your crying!!)

Has anybody ever given thought to how supplies would be stored in the various tunnel(s) of our hypothetical base?

Arguments can be made that for efficient utilization of space, pallets would be stacked high and tight. Disadvantages to this is that the entire tunnel would have to be frozen, running a risk of everything be damaged if anything causes the tunnel to lose integrity.

Another option is to carefully pack everything into modified shipping containers, fitted with individual cryo units. Disadvantages would include per unit cost, as well as the necessary increased size of tunnels to allow for the easy storage and access to needed supplies.
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Old 12-05-2018, 07:08 AM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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In my games, I often have the players hired into one of Morrow Industries defense technology divisions, helps when the government handles those security background checks...
I have done the same, or at least had Morrow get access to government files.
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Old 12-05-2018, 03:18 PM
Desert Mariner Desert Mariner is offline
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Agreed. For a 50,000 person active Project, people and secrecy are the problems, not money. A project that make thousands of vehicular fusion reactors and tens of thousands of freeze tubes has money to spend on pouring concrete.
Perhaps secrecy isn't the issue we all think it is. Take a look at the sites below and imagine the possibilities of the Project operating in the open.

http://www.terravivos.com/secure/vivosxpoint.htm
https://www.hardenedstructures.com/
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:29 PM
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You make a lot of assumptions that I don't see as being the only path forward. If Bruce is smart he will bring back tech items that can be made with the manufacturing technology of the 1960s-1970s. For a person with the genius of Bruce it would be obvious that bringing back anything that requires a huge investment in new technology or exotic tooling is going to increase costs and reduce security.

I look at it this way. A 16 year old kid can turn smoke detectors into a functioning neutron gun in a shed in his mom's back yard using nothing but simple tools. It cost Billions of dollars to run the Manhattan Project, but once the basic principals and materials were discovered the investment has been made and the science and technology may possibly be produced more easily, more cheaply and on a different scale.

If I was Bruce I'd either have items specifically designed in the future for construction in a series of war surplus factories in 1965 or at least ensure that all the really hard R&D had been done. For all we know a fusion reactor could cost no more than a jet engine, or even no more than a high end Color TV set.
Yes, yes I do make a lot of assumptions. I make those assumptions as someone who finished college applying to grad programs in fusion technology, switched into advanced optical systems, and then made a career as an R&D engineer trying to turn "simple" concepts into high performing pieces of working technology.

That kid was able to build a neutron gun in his mom's shed, but what he built performed really poorly and was in practice little more than a massive public health hazard. Someone with access to select materials could build a working atomic bomb without all the R&D, but what they built would be unreliable and unsafe, likely to kill anyone who spent too much time near it, unlikely to go off when desired, likely to go off by accident, and delivering a relatively low yield for the amount of radioactive material.

One of my college professors (a laser specialist) used to have his students build a laser using a particular brand of toothbrush - the dye in the translucent handle made an effective lasing medium, and the ends could be polished to form the laser cavity, needing only a modest pumping source to lase. That doesn't mean those lasers are useful for anything more than demonstrating the concept.

The Project doesn't need concept demonstrators, they need high performing technology that is compact and reliable, and that isn't something you are going to be able to do in mom's shed. You need advanced materials, and high power computing, and precision machining, and lots and lots of other foundational technologies. Heck, half of my work consists of taking concepts that have been around for decades just waiting for someone to develop the dozens of other technological advancements necessary to make those concepts practical.

And as a final note, the only reason jet engines and tv sets are as cheap as they are today is because of massive investments in dozens of technologies and hundreds of industrial processes. It is a massive conceit to think that someone could build a compact, reliable, long-lasting fusion reactor cheaply using 1980's technology when hundreds and thousands of incredibly intelligent, specially educated people who were trying to accomplish that very thing all failed miserably. What you are suggesting is neither more nor less than magic.

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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
As for land purchases. If this was my project I'd buy up land right off the go. Land won't get any cheaper. Any surplus can probably be sold at a profit. A bolt hole will be expensive to build and fairly large but a cache is about the size of a basement for a standard house, or even smaller. Until they get loaded up they are just concrete boxes in the ground. There are huge numbers of such things serving dozens of purposes all across the civilized world. No one really notices them.
I agree across the board. Early land purchases make perfect sense. You can probably even pour the concrete, provided you have plans that reflect the technology that will be installed decades later.

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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
If the project bought up a lot of form military land no one is even going to wonder about concrete boxes in the ground, unless they find a bolt hole...
I think this makes a reasonable partial solution, but it only goes so far. The Project needs a lot of land and doesn't want to be predictable. It all goes to heck if someone starts to notice that everyone buying a particular type of property is also doing the same other suspicious things.
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  #23  
Old 12-05-2018, 11:40 PM
cosmicfish cosmicfish is offline
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Originally Posted by Desert Mariner View Post
Perhaps secrecy isn't the issue we all think it is. Take a look at the sites below and imagine the possibilities of the Project operating in the open.

http://www.terravivos.com/secure/vivosxpoint.htm
https://www.hardenedstructures.com/
Those groups are heavily investigated, and don't have super-futuristic or illegal military equipment. Secrecy is a huge issue.

And as a note on SSBI vs Project investigations, it is worthwhile that there are some hugely important differences. The government is looking for patriots, the Project is actually looking for a special type of traitor. The government can enforce their negative decisions (clearance denials, violations of laws regarding the handling of classified information, etc) with the force of law and an existing legal infrastructure, while the Project needs to get it right close to every time or the main expense of the Project will quickly become "disappearing" people who don't want to join but now know too much. The government can make reasonably accurate estimates of who will betray them based on past performance, the Project needs to take a fantastical hypothetical and find people really willing to abandon everyone and everything to make it real.

It should also be noted that people with higher clearances are tracked, to varying degrees, even after they end the employment that led to those clearances. There are people whose jobs are to know immediately if certain people try to leave the country, or publish anything without prior approval, or are being targeted or recruited by a potential enemy of the country... and EVERY organization is a potential enemy.

You can take some of those people, you probably can't get that many without raising some uncomfortable suspicions, and most of those people would be more likely to report the Project than join it anyway.
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  #24  
Old 12-06-2018, 05:38 AM
Desert Mariner Desert Mariner is offline
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Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Those groups are heavily investigated, and don't have super-futuristic or illegal military equipment. Secrecy is a huge issue.
I should have clarified, I was referring specifically to construction of boltholes, caches, etc., not stocking said structures.
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  #25  
Old 12-06-2018, 07:33 AM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Those groups are heavily investigated, and don't have super-futuristic or illegal military equipment. Secrecy is a huge issue.

And as a note on SSBI vs Project investigations, it is worthwhile that there are some hugely important differences. The government is looking for patriots, the Project is actually looking for a special type of traitor. The government can enforce their negative decisions (clearance denials, violations of laws regarding the handling of classified information, etc) with the force of law and an existing legal infrastructure, while the Project needs to get it right close to every time or the main expense of the Project will quickly become "disappearing" people who don't want to join but now know too much. The government can make reasonably accurate estimates of who will betray them based on past performance, the Project needs to take a fantastical hypothetical and find people really willing to abandon everyone and everything to make it real.

It should also be noted that people with higher clearances are tracked, to varying degrees, even after they end the employment that led to those clearances. There are people whose jobs are to know immediately if certain people try to leave the country, or publish anything without prior approval, or are being targeted or recruited by a potential enemy of the country... and EVERY organization is a potential enemy.

You can take some of those people, you probably can't get that many without raising some uncomfortable suspicions, and most of those people would be more likely to report the Project than join it anyway.
In 1960 things are very different than in 2018 or even in 1990. In the 1960s there are thousands or tens of thousands of fallout shelters being built all across the USA (and the rest of the world-it is estimated that Switzerland alone has 300,000 shelters). Today if you tell your neighbor you are building a bunker in your back yard you are a loony prepper and possibly get a visit from DHS. In 1963 if you said the same thing they might share their plans and design features and compare notes.

Average Citizens and Companies were ENCOURAGED by the Federal Government to build shelters. There were plans for ones with swimming pool entrances and swimming pool contractors were building them for civilians.

https://aquamagazine.com/builder/whe...-shelters.html



Before 1971 no one in the federal government is really regulating underground construction (https://www.osha.gov/Publications/osha3115.html). MSHA only gets mining, not tunneling, except for mineral extraction. (https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/mou/1979-03-29)

If red white and blue American companies are building fallout shelters from 1957-1970 I wonder how much scrutiny they would get from anyone? Who would inspect them? Unless the FBI wants to investigate who would have jurisdiction? The Military doesn't. The department of Labor doesn't have an organ that does this yet. Some States might, but again who would notice or really care? What laws are being broken? It would be hard to tell a group-"hey were are going to investigate you for doing what a Presidential Kennedy told them to do!

From Wikipedia
In November 1961, in Fortune magazine, an article by Gilbert Burck appeared that outlined the plans of Nelson Rockefeller, Edward Teller, Herman Kahn, and Chet Holifield for an In the U.S. in September 1961, under the direction of Steuart L. Pittman, the federal government started the Community Fallout Shelter Program.[3][4] A letter from President Kennedy advising the use of fallout shelters appeared in the September 1961 issue of Life magazine.[5]


In November 1961, in Fortune magazine, an article by Gilbert Burck appeared that outlined the plans of Nelson Rockefeller, Edward Teller, Herman Kahn, and Chet Holifield for an enormous network of concrete lined underground fallout shelters throughout the United States sufficient to shelter millions of people to serve as a refuge in case of nuclear war.[6]


So in the Fortune article a group of wealthy and important people may have planned to build "an enormous network of concrete lined underground fallout shelters throughout the United States"

Between all the efforts to provide fall out shelters who is going to notice that some of these shelters are much bigger than others? That some are far better built than the norm and that they seem to be designed to be upgraded?

Hell an easy way to hide a bolt hole of a cache is to put it UNDER a marked and provisioned fallout shelter. If the war happens the shelter may or may not get used. The occupants may or may not survive (it would be creepy to have a team exit a bolt hole into a shelter filled with skeletons, welcome to the new world team!). But given how many of these things have been "lost" for decades I think it is safe to say that many many of these things have been completely forgotten by the vast majority of people.

A lot depends upon what the project saw as its own timeline. The initial Project may have been nothing but families of "preppers" with associated bomb shelters into which they would enter in case of alert. The holes were designed to be upgraded if or when new technology might advance to fusion and cryo.

Re-provisioning or upgrading a bolt hole or cache is far less obvious then building one. As urban sprawl creeps out some bolt holes and caches will become unavailable for upgrading. These might be abandoned or possibly recovered and placed somewhere else. If they are relocated they might be filled with grout after everything critical has been removed.

There are a number of first principals-
1955-1970 is not 2000+

The entire landscape of regulations and surveillance has changed.

Personal Patriotism and loyalty to the nation changed dramatically in the early 1970s due to Vietnam. Finding volunteers and also keeping secrets would have been far less of an issue before that.

Even for 4th edition if this is the foundation of the Project it may have remained hidden for the entire period.

Hiding things would have been far less of an issue before 1970 then it would be afterwards and it might certainly be impossible today.
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  #26  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:23 AM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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Good Catch!

I had completely forgotten that corporations were taking part in the shelter craze. Certainly gives additional cover for Project activities!
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  #27  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:26 AM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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Originally Posted by dragoon500ly View Post
Good Catch!

I had completely forgotten that corporations were taking part in the shelter craze. Certainly gives additional cover for Project activities!
Thanks!
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