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Old 10-08-2008, 02:39 AM
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Default Defensive weapons

Most people think of weapons as being "offensive".

What sort of weapons or equipment could be considered defensive?

I guess some examples i can think of are flash/bang grenades used to disorientate the enemy to buy yourself time.

Caltrops, used to slow or stop an enemy on foot or to burst car tyres.

Can anyone think or list of any others?
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Old 10-08-2008, 02:55 AM
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Mines
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Old 10-08-2008, 03:03 AM
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I would say air defense systems. Some can be used in an offensive role but their main purpose remain to defend an area.

Elsewhere, I might be burnt for that but mines (at least regular ground mines) are defensive as well. I can't think of someone throwing a mine at a tank . The one dropped by planes today are, however, truly offensive especially when they are launched on civilians.

Then, every type of gear that is not truly a weapon : helmets, bodyarmors, and most electronic systems. Radars were first used in a strictly defensive role and Asdic was designed for naval defense.

Interceptor planes is another type. Fighter planes are often used in an attack role but interceptors were made strictly to stop incoming ennemy aircrafts. They are becoming increasingly rare, however.

Tear gas but you might have said it.

Any weapon of course, depending on what end of it you are but that is the obvious .
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Old 10-08-2008, 03:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kato13
Mines
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Old 10-08-2008, 03:18 AM
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I'll pay mines, body armour and radar.

how about smoke grenades, or vehiclar smoke.
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Old 10-08-2008, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kato13
Mines
that was my first thought aswell : Claymore mines
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Old 10-08-2008, 03:47 AM
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Barbed wire.

And nets, as a form of non-lethal traps.
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Old 10-08-2008, 04:00 AM
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If you are including barb wire there are a bunch of passive sensors you should include as well.

the REMBASS system is interesting

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/rembass.htm

button bomblets (noise makers) and trip flares might also make sense.
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Old 10-08-2008, 04:35 AM
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Tank traps, anti tank ditches, sharpened stakes, caltrops. All low tech and very 'do-able' by people with hand tools but potentially very effective.
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Old 10-08-2008, 07:19 AM
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Can we include handguns? To paraphrase what a veteran once told me :If you need a pistol you should already have left”.
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Old 10-08-2008, 08:25 AM
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Technically, fragmentation grenades are "Defensive Hand Grenades..."
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Old 10-08-2008, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b
Technically, fragmentation grenades are "Defensive Hand Grenades..."

This post makes me remember that in the Spanish army, the R-41 (the standard hand grenade) has a different configuration depending if you use it in a defensive or offensive role. Basically the defensive grenade is an offensive grenade inside an special envelope that contains 3500 small steel balls to increase the damage in the burst area. The idea of the increased frag. power is that the soldier who uses a defensive grenade is throwing it from a cover. It is thought that the offensive configuration of the R-41 is better to prevent damage against the rest of the squad, immediately advancing to take profit from the grenade effect.

No idea if in others armies this difference between defensive/offensive grenade types exists.
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Old 10-08-2008, 10:15 AM
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Weapons that are purely defensive, ARGH since most weapons can be used for either. Especialy if one is creative.

The flashbang example and how it is explained allow it to be used as a defensive weapon for the purpose of distraction. HOWEVER, as they are primarly used they are used in an OFFENSIVE ROLE, they are used by pole and raid units in distracting while a building or similiar operation is occuirng, ie being taken down.

A machinegun mounted on a tripod and in a fixed position is ususaly a defensive weapon, however the same schem as it delivers supporting fire to an infantry advance on an enemy position it is now an offensive weapon.

The improvised weapons mentioned, a Helmet, or an entrenching tool or a tent pin. Are they a defensive weapon when used to bash someone, or stab or hack? Not really. They are offensive weapon, to use them as a defense weapon they loose ALOT of their effectiveness, surprise is what will help you win if you have to use such equipment as a weapon.

Mines for the most part are defensive, although they did teach how to use them to ambush vehicles or personel, the old trick of tying a line to an anti tank mine and pulling it under the track of a tank.

I digress.

Pistols for the most part are now more or less a last ditch weapon and thus can be used and are used for defensive purposes. Very few people have the skill or need to use one as an offensive weapon. However, I can see it being an offensive weapon in trench clearing, urban, tunnels and ship operations where it is close quarters. However, today there are alot more weapons that will fill the role much better.

Carbines USED TO BE defensive weapons for drivers, clerk and artillerymen. Now they are almost standard issue because of their size, portability and ease of use in close quarters and in modern methods of deployment via inside a mech vehicle or helicopter.

Today as I mentioned a few days ago, Submachineguns are now being issued as a means of personal defense to personel who would in the past be issued a pistol. Although again for a close quarters raid operation, they would be a good choice and used as an offensive weapon.

Claymores, yes mines, but they are so much more and I love them Used for strengthening perimeters and thwarting an enemy attack. but, also a cool thing to have if you are setting up an ambush.

I agree, most air DEFENSE systems are exactly defensive, almost exclusivly so unless of course you turn the system on infantry, but its primary purpose defense.

I would say, something like a mini gun in a fixed fortification would be a defensive weapon as well. And a very cool one.

Trip Flares are defensive.

Most of the time Knives because that means you are without a working firearm or ammo and things are now desperate. <The bayonet goes both ways, but traditionaly a bayonet is an offensive weapon ie the bayonet charge>

Mo, I like the idea that interceptor aircraft are defensive and it is, but to do the defensive role they must be offensive, since their purpose is to ATTACK incomming bombers. At the Macro level they are defensive, but at the micro level they are offensive.

Just like bomber aircraft, they are purely offensive.

This is actualy harder than I imagined it would be when I first opened this string.

I'll just make a list:

Pistols
Knives
Shotguns usualy
Some grenades
Mines mostly
Carbines and Submachineguns as they are generaly issued today
Air Defense Systems
Machinguns and heavy weapons when dug in in a fixed position
Obstacles <wire, tank traps, ditches, punji sticks etc>
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Old 10-08-2008, 01:08 PM
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Default lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond_Spear
Can we include handguns? To paraphrase what a veteran once told me :If you need a pistol you should already have left”.
hehe good one
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Old 10-08-2008, 02:06 PM
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Default thats right..

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b
Technically, fragmentation grenades are "Defensive Hand Grenades..."
its the one swith out shrapnel that are for offensive uses..
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Old 10-08-2008, 02:09 PM
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Default yeah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc
This post makes me remember that in the Spanish army, the R-41 (the standard hand grenade) has a different configuration depending if you use it in a defensive or offensive role. Basically the defensive grenade is an offensive grenade inside an special envelope that contains 3500 small steel balls to increase the damage in the burst area. The idea of the increased frag. power is that the soldier who uses a defensive grenade is throwing it from a cover. It is thought that the offensive configuration of the R-41 is better to prevent damage against the rest of the squad, immediately advancing to take profit from the grenade effect.

No idea if in others armies this difference between defensive/offensive grenade types exists.
We trained for assault using concussion grenades and defence using frags in the Norwegian Army in the 1990s..The frags were german made plastic ones with thousands of little steel balls in them - the concussion ones were more like a smokegrenade type only they gave little smoke but quite the walloping bang ..
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Old 10-08-2008, 02:14 PM
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Default Chemical weapons

Altough once used to gas people in positions you were about to attack -I seem to remember that modern use of these weapons also play on the defence ,meaning that gas and chemical agents can be used to deny an enemy use of a certain piece of terrain ,since its temporarily toxic /poisonous ..The same gas/aerosol weapon could of course be used to attack someone ,but it would slow you down some if you had to move through country were everything was potentially /actually covered in a fine spray of nervegas droplets or some such.
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Old 10-08-2008, 02:26 PM
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Yes, gas is an offensive weapon but can be used as a denial weapon as well. Especialy something like CS since its base is a crystline chemical that is persistant. So toss in a CS grenade in the bunker and yes it will disapate, but it will still affect you for sometime, weeks and months later depending on the weather conditions and how it breaks down.
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Old 10-08-2008, 02:44 PM
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Old 10-08-2008, 03:34 PM
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AT missiles! Not exactly the sort of thing you want to be dragging with you when you go over the top.

And to second Jester's statement, tripod-mounted GPMGs. Interlocking fields of fire make defensive positions oh-so-much fun!
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Old 10-08-2008, 04:18 PM
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I was thinking of adding anti tank weapons as defensive as they tend to be used more for that purpose than offensive. But, then again, if one wants to ambush an enemy vehicle column well antitank rockets of missiles do work wonders. a narrow aproach a bridge, mountain pass or sunken road, take out the first and last vehicle and everything in between can be destroyed at your leasure or captured intact as they are now trapped and can't manuver or fire really.

And, think of the SMAW, an antitank weapon and its nickname, "BUNKER BUSTER!" So, I can see it being hauled with you as you go over the top, to be used to take out those pesky enemy machinegun emplacements.

I also recall the British in the Falklands using the Javalins to take out the Argentinians bunkers.

Again, the things we don't think of as defensive turn out to be. However, a simple rule,

If it is dug in and has a tripod or stand or mount that is being used it is a defensive weapon.

And here we go, a weapon with a mounted tripod has a longer range and more stable platform.

The same weapons in the assault mode, tend to be hand fired or from a bipod and thus have less range and accuracy.

And now I am thinking mortars too.

Set on its bipod unless it is giving support fire then it is in a fixed posiiton and will most likely fire in a defensive mode. Like that scene in Green Berets where Mr. Beckworth gets to be part of the war.

And then the 60mm mortar fired in the handheld mode, no bipod and fired with its trigger while the gunner is holding it.

Now, we have the fine line between cover or supportive fire and defensive fire.
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Old 10-08-2008, 05:34 PM
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Jester, it was Milans, not Javelins, but you are exactly right. One of the instructors I worked with years ago was a Falklands veteran, who told a story about them using Milans to pop bunkers, and then his Troop commander got pulled up when they got back for using too many expensive missiles!
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Old 10-08-2008, 05:58 PM
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Lovely! Missiles are more important than men, ya gotta love the budget minded commanders in the rear.
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:22 PM
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IIRC He was bollocked for 'being excessively profligate with resources'. Words to that effect anyway. Really endeared the brass to the men!
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:27 PM
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It never ceases to amaze me. A missile costs depending on the ordinance used anywhere from 10k to 1 million.

But, how much does it costs to recruit, train, pay and then burry a soldier, give his widow/mother his indemnity, then recruit and retrain his replacement?

Speaking purely financialy it is a better deal to use a piece of hardware still. But, alas, the brass doesn't think ahead.
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Old 10-09-2008, 12:55 AM
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Default hmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jester
It never ceases to amaze me. A missile costs depending on the ordinance used anywhere from 10k to 1 million.

But, how much does it costs to recruit, train, pay and then burry a soldier, give his widow/mother his indemnity, then recruit and retrain his replacement?

Speaking purely financialy it is a better deal to use a piece of hardware still. But, alas, the brass doesn't think ahead.
probably less than one million it would seem
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Old 10-09-2008, 01:09 AM
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Reminds me of the fact that during peak production RPG-16 rounds were manufactured for the equivalent of something like 75 cents (US).

"Quantity has a quality all its own" - Joseph Stalin

Last edited by kato13; 10-09-2008 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 10-09-2008, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kato13
Reminds me of the fact that during peak production RPG-16 rounds were manufactured for the equivalent of something like 75 cents (US).

"Quantity has a quality all its own" - Joseph Stalin

wow!!

how many millions did they make?
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Old 10-09-2008, 01:46 AM
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I don't have solid numbers on how many they made but on the current international market they go for about 14 dollars. I was reading about a firing range in Lebanon where you can shoot them off for 25 dollars a shot.
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Old 10-09-2008, 02:01 AM
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Its 99% of accountants that give the rest of us a bad name.
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