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  #61  
Old 11-01-2018, 08:46 PM
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I think the way society is portrayed in the first Mad Max movie would be suitable for those areas still under government control but I also think that The Rover is even better for that aspect.
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  #62  
Old 11-01-2018, 09:46 PM
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I see those two fitting the more remote areas actually.
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Old 11-02-2018, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Jason Weiser View Post
The target list I cooked up a while ago, use as appropriate.
Curious what the justification for Australia being nuked? Is this a case of it twilight so everything was was nuked?

Australia during twilight dose not have the capability to operate beyond his island independently, it dose not have troops in Europe. While is it might supporting China with material it dose not have large numbers of troops outside of the country.

Guessing the oil refineries where added cause? The US might use them?

that dose not make sense to me, maybe its just me
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  #64  
Old 11-02-2018, 08:33 AM
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The oil refineries Australia does have aren't actually suited to processing the oil we have, and are located far from the oil fields anyway. The bulk of the crude processed in Australia is shipped in from elsewhere, while the oil produced mostly ends up in Asia.
https://www.aip.com.au/resources/aus...n-and-refining

The refineries really can't be the reason for any nukes.
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Old 11-02-2018, 10:28 AM
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The oil refineries Australia does have aren't actually suited to processing the oil we have, and are located far from the oil fields anyway. The bulk of the crude processed in Australia is shipped in from elsewhere, while the oil produced mostly ends up in Asia.
https://www.aip.com.au/resources/aus...n-and-refining

The refineries really can't be the reason for any nukes.
That what I thought too, I found this tool that shows Australia Crude Oil Consumption by Year. (https://www.indexmundi.com/energy/?c...on&product=oil) in 1998 Australia consumed 852,000 Barrels of oil, while producing 862,0000 Barrels. Which in theory is just enough to cover consumption is a very small surplus.

I also don't think that the Soviets have enough missiles left in Asia with the range to hit Australian targets. Best option is a Ballistic Sub Launched Missiles and then I would only have one sub attacking ports that the US could use.
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Old 11-02-2018, 03:25 PM
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I would think that the only nuke targets that the Soviets might - and this is a big might - go after would be their intelligence gathering and satellite tracking stations - other than that I really dont see them nuking Australia - on the other hand the Indonesian oil fields or refineries might be a real target
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  #67  
Old 11-02-2018, 05:45 PM
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I would think that the only nuke targets that the Soviets might - and this is a big might - go after would be their intelligence gathering and satellite tracking stations - other than that I really don't see them nuking Australia - on the other hand the Indonesian oil fields or refineries might be a real target
Even those targets are problematic really with facilities WIDELY dispersed and only staffed with perhaps a few hundred people. Conventional warheads or covert action may be more suitable.

Not sure about Indonesian targets. Doubtful they could be considered neutral and given the ANZUS treaty (yes, even without New Zealand) the US would technically be at war with Indonesia, even if they weren't able to actually send any soldiers or equipment. It's possible the US or even the UK nuked Indonesia, but I really can't see the advantage in doing that - Nato don't have any significant opponents anywhere near the area to potentially use the oil.

The whole region is proving somewhat difficult to depopulate and destroy. Fairly sure though that I'll send something like the Spanish Flu through and add in a few natural disasters to damage infrastructure. Most of Australia is prone to bushfires and/or flooding, both of which are difficult enough to handle in peace time, while parts of Indonesia are volcanically active.
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  #68  
Old 11-03-2018, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Six View Post
At one point in time (maybe around 15 – 20 years ago) someone (I don’t know who) had a write up for an ANZAC (plus attached Pacific Islanders iirc) unit in Germany. The premise was they’d gathered together assorted Aussie / NZ / Fijian personnel that had been in theatre (UN peacekeepers, training teams, personnel on exchange postings, Australian Federal Police, I think even a couple of Defence Attaches, etc) and consolidated them into one Company sized unit. Obviously it was non canon.

I don’t know if said site still exists and my google fu (admittedly restricted by being at work) isn’t coming up with anything – maybe someone else remembers it or has a link to it?
Found it.
I'd saved the page back in 2009. Don't think I'll be using any of it - most of what's there is preposterous.

T2K-Art.pdf
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  #69  
Old 11-06-2018, 06:58 PM
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I don't suppose anyone wants to map out the locations of all the Australian army reserve barracks as they were around the mid 90's?
Regular army barracks and some reserve unit HQ's are easy - the scattered platoons and companies on the other hand....
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  #70  
Old 11-07-2018, 03:32 AM
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Off the top of my head and remember that this is what I recall from the 1990s so cross-checking is probably needed : -

Western Australia

16 Battalion, RWAR, Infantry
HQ, Support/admin/etc. & B Coy - Irwin Barracks, Karrakatta, Perth
A Coy - Geraldton
C Coy - Kalgoorlie, (my last unit) was in transition from understrength Company to overstrength Reconnaissance Platoon. This would have been complete by the mid-90s
Support Coy included 81mm mortars and 7.62mm SFMG

11/28 Battalion, RWAR, Infantry
Now if memory serves me correctly, Targan was 11/28 so he would be the one to ask because I"m working from second-hand info.
HQ, Support/admin/etc. & B Coy (I'm uncertain of this) - Irwin Barracks, Karakatta, Perth
A Coy: -
1st Platoon - Bunbury
2nd Platoon - Albany
3rd Platoon - Katanning
I think HQ A Coy was in Bunbury but again, I am not certain
C Coy: -
I don't know but a platoon sized unit was based in Rockingham and I think this might have been the core of C Coy.
D Coy: - Irwin Barracks
I am not certain of the setup with 11/28 because at that time, some Reserve Infantry units were being strengthened with one Regular Army company

10 Light Horse, Armoured Recce
HQ, support/etc. and A Squadron - Irwin Barracks
A Vehicles included: - M113 LRV, M548 TLC, M113 Fitter's Vehicle, M577 ACV (no 76mm MRV from what I recall)

Other Reserve units in Perth at that time included, (note that I have no idea of strength, organization etc. etc.)
7 Field Battery, Medium Arty, at Irwin Barracks (I think they've been neutered and carry 81mm now)
? Field Ambulance (don't recall designation), was formerly at the Artillery Barracks in Fremantle but then moved to Irwin Barracks sometime in late-80s or early-90s.

Regional Forces Surveillance Units
These are infantry recce units equipped in a manner similar to SASR recce units with vehicles suitable to the task e.g. Far North Queensland Regiment has a number of boats on strength along with their wheeled vehicles

Pilbarra Regiment
HQ and other elements - Karratha (main garrison)
Three Squadrons although I don't know where two of them were based. One was based in Mt Newman, one was most likely in Karratha.

North-West Mobile Force AKA NORFORCE
Main AOR was Northern Territory but but also the very top end of Western Australia (within the Kimberly region)
HQ etc. etc. in Darwin, Northern Territory
Kimberly Squadron, I believe was based in Broome with detachments in Kununurra or Derby (or both for all I remember!)
The other Squadrons were all based in NT

EDIT: There was also an RACT unit at Karrakatta and I believe another logistics unit of some description although that unit may have been Regs. Palmer Barracks in South Guildford, Perth, WA was a logistics base but I believe it was Regs rather than Reserves although I don't know for certain.

And in the 1980s 'till the early 1990s, 1/15 RNSWL Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment had all units based at Lancer Barracks in Parramatta, Sydney. This was my first ARes unit. After they lost their buckets and got wheeled recce vehicles, they established one Squadron somewhere else in Sydney. 1/15 still had 76mm MRVs on strength as well as a RAEME detachment. They also had a fully working Centurion as part of the museum (although it would have been somewhat impotent without ammo for the main gun)

Last edited by StainlessSteelCynic; 11-07-2018 at 03:48 AM. Reason: spelling Karrakatta properly. 2nd edit, adding info
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  #71  
Old 11-07-2018, 09:44 AM
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Curious what the justification for Australia being nuked? Is this a case of it twilight so everything was was nuked?
The old, easy excuse -- denial of use to the enemy.
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  #72  
Old 11-07-2018, 06:43 PM
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The old, easy excuse -- denial of use to the enemy.
That's about the only reason really that would apply, and even that's problematic given the vast distances involved. I'll likely nuke a couple of locations, but they'll be more of an afterthought than primary, or even secondary target in the greater, global scheme.
Darwin, Perth and Townsville might get attacked mostly due to their ability to support operations against Indonesia (which I'm thinking would be an "ally" of the USSR more by a case of "enemy of my enemy" than anything else).
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  #73  
Old 11-07-2018, 06:44 PM
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Off the top of my head and remember that this is what I recall from the 1990s so cross-checking is probably needed
I've got an application in with the ADF media unit for assistance on OOBs, etc. Hoping they'll be able to do most of the work for me.
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  #74  
Old 11-10-2018, 01:15 AM
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I've got an application in with the ADF media unit for assistance on OOBs, etc. Hoping they'll be able to do most of the work for me.
Nice! Hopefully they'll have a bit of detail to them.
Way back when I first joined, we did a lesson on the composition of the armoured recce regiment and the pams we were given were super detailed. Not just how many buckets, radios or GS trailers should be on strength but even the number of magazines to be issued per rifle.
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  #75  
Old 11-10-2018, 01:29 AM
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Yeah, got a source on PAMs now too. There's a Library in Melbourne that's got just about EVERYTHING! They've been bending over backwards to help out.
I'm actually getting swamped in detail at the moment. Far more than's actually necessary!
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  #76  
Old 11-16-2018, 01:30 PM
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RN7 popped up the figures for 1996/1997. For the sake of completion I'll put up those for 1989. Give a rough idea of the Cold war mindset.

Australia

Total Armed forces
Active: 69600

Reserve: 27580 (Increasing)
Army: 25000
Navy: 12220
Air: 1360

Army (31300)

7 Military Districts

Command Troops
1 Air Defence Regiment
1 Engineer Regiment (Construction)
1 Aviation Regiment
1 SAS Regiment (3 Sqns)

1 Inf Division
1 Mech Brigade
(1 Armd, 1 Mech, 1 Para)
2 Inf Brigade ( 2 Inf Bn)
1 Recce Regiment
1 APC Regiment
4 Arty Regiment
(1 Med, 3 Fd (1 Reserve)
1 Engr Reg
1 AVN 93 Hel, 1 ac sqn)
(2 avn as hel transferring from Air force)

Army Reserves
2 Div HQ
7 Brg HQ
3 Recce reg
3 APC Sqn
17 Inf Bn
1 Cdo
6 Arty Reg (1 Med, 5 Fd)
3 Field Artillery Battery
4 Engineer Regiment ( 2 Field, 2 construction)
3 Regional Surveillance units

Army Equipment
MBT: 103 Lepard 1A3 (42 Centurion in store)
AIFV: 40 M113 with 76mm
APC: 725 M113
Towed Artillery: 105mm 142 M2A2/L5
18 Hamel 15500
35 M-198
Mortars: 81mm:284
ATGW: 10 Milan
RCL:
84MM: 574 Carl Gustav
106mm 73 M-40
SAM: 19 Rapier
19 RBS-70
Aircraft:
14 PC-6 Turbo-Porter
22 GAP N-22B Missionmaster
Helicoper:
14 S-70 (Army/Air force Crew)
47 OH-58 Kiowa
47 206B
Marine:
16 LCM
85 LARC-5 AMPH Craft


Before you go handing out the in storage Lee-Enfields. Bear in mind that Australia obtained for the license to manufacture the Streyer AUG. So if production was ramped up, you should be able to equip any new forces before the nuclear strikes.
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  #77  
Old 11-17-2018, 02:24 AM
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Just some small things with the list you posted, the 47 OH-58 Kiowas and 47 Bell 206B are referencing the same helo. They were the 206B civilian models modified for military use and retained the civilian designation.
We never had the OH-58 version.

And yes, we definitely had the licence for the AUG in the 1980s, late 80s but still the 80s. If I can actually remember back that far, I think the first versions were being mass issued in early1989, they were definitely on show in 1988 as I saw a few of them when I participated in Army Tattoo 88 in Western Australia.
My last unit got them in 1991 I think, might have been 1992 but I was carrying one for a couple of years.

I was in an Army Reserve infantry unit so we were further down the food chain when it came to distribution of the new rifles but even still, they rifle was accepted for service in 1988 and most infantry units had been fully converted to the F88 Austeyr by 1992. Less than five years so that gives some idea of how quickly we could have got serious production going (however keep in mind we're not talking hundreds of thousands of rifles, I think we requested about 90,000 in total).
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Old 11-17-2018, 03:03 AM
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I was in an Army Reserve infantry unit so we were further down the food chain when it came to distribution of the new rifles but even still, they rifle was accepted for service in 1988 and most infantry units had been fully converted to the F88 Austeyr by 1992. Less than five years so that gives some idea of how quickly we could have got serious production going (however keep in mind we're not talking hundreds of thousands of rifles, I think we requested about 90,000 in total).
41 RNSWR didn't get them until 93 - late 93 at that.
Did get the M16s and M203s 1RAR handed in though around 92.
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Old 11-22-2018, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
16 Battalion, RWAR, Infantry
HQ, Support/admin/etc. & B Coy - Irwin Barracks, Karrakatta, Perth
A Coy - Geraldton
C Coy - Kalgoorlie, (my last unit) was in transition from understrength Company to overstrength Reconnaissance Platoon. This would have been complete by the mid-90s
Support Coy included 81mm mortars and 7.62mm SFMG

11/28 Battalion, RWAR, Infantry
Now if memory serves me correctly, Targan was 11/28 so he would be the one to ask because I"m working from second-hand info.
HQ, Support/admin/etc. & B Coy (I'm uncertain of this) - Irwin Barracks, Karakatta, Perth
A Coy: -
1st Platoon - Bunbury
2nd Platoon - Albany
3rd Platoon - Katanning
I think HQ A Coy was in Bunbury but again, I am not certain
C Coy: -
I don't know but a platoon sized unit was based in Rockingham and I think this might have been the core of C Coy.
D Coy: - Irwin Barracks
I am not certain of the setup with 11/28 because at that time, some Reserve Infantry units were being strengthened with one Regular Army company

10 Light Horse, Armoured Recce
HQ, support/etc. and A Squadron - Irwin Barracks
A Vehicles included: - M113 LRV, M548 TLC, M113 Fitter's Vehicle, M577 ACV (no 76mm MRV from what I recall)

Other Reserve units in Perth at that time included, (note that I have no idea of strength, organization etc. etc.)
7 Field Battery, Medium Arty, at Irwin Barracks (I think they've been neutered and carry 81mm now)
? Field Ambulance (don't recall designation), was formerly at the Artillery Barracks in Fremantle but then moved to Irwin Barracks sometime in late-80s or early-90s.
This all looks correct to me as far as I remember. I'm pretty sure 11/28 Battalion didn't have a regular company attached in the early to mid-90s. We didn't even get Steyrs until '93 IIRC.
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Old 11-22-2018, 08:35 PM
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This all looks correct to me as far as I remember. I'm pretty sure 11/28 Battalion didn't have a regular company attached in the early to mid-90s. We didn't even get Steyrs until '93 IIRC.
Yeah, checking with a friend who joined 16 sometime in the early 90s, I am out of synch by quite a few years. From his recollection the plan to integrate ARes and Reg formations started sometime in the mid 90s so it would have taken a good few years before it was in place, like probably the late 90s or early 2000s.
That's the problem with relying on memory!
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Old 11-26-2018, 05:25 AM
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I don't suppose we have any oil refining engineers in the forum membership do we?
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Old 11-26-2018, 07:12 PM
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No I'm not but, what info are you after?
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  #83  
Old 11-26-2018, 08:48 PM
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The ability for Australian and New Zealand refineries to switch to light sweet oil (as produced in WA and currently shipped to Asian markets) rather than the heavier crude imports they've been using for the previous 50+ years. What sort of efficiency loss would there be, production delays during changeover, etc.
My own research seems to indicate there's only one refinery in the country in the 1990s that had the ability to quickly switch from one feed stock type to another (up to three times in a day apparently). The others don't seem to have that ability built in.
Knowing what problems and delays there may be is critical to deciding on what's going on throughout the country and may perhaps explain why Australia apparently avoided being nuked.

On another vaguely related topic, I just found this website a moment ago. http://australiansteam.com
Quote "This site provides an up-to-date listing of all surviving Australian steam locomotives, including their location and status. More than 600 locomotives are detailed, indexed by their state of origin and first user."
Going to be loads of fun trawling through there and figuring out which ones may be pressed back into service when diesel runs short.
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  #84  
Old 11-27-2018, 02:50 AM
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Okay so just to get this straight in my own head, do you mean processing already refined sweet light oil or being able to process sour/heavy crude into sweet light?
In "theory", any refinery that is processing sour and/or heavy oils could convert some of that output to sweet light oils but it requires some expansive and obviously expensive infrastructure.
There's a brief explanation of the processes involved on the following page: -
https://www.afpm.org/The-Refinery-Process/#process

How many refineries in Australia have these facilities? Not many but I'm not certain for sure as I only know of two that would have been operating in the 1980s-90s period (the Shell refinery at Clyde NSW and the BP refinery in Kwinana WA). It's not like we have dozens of crude refineries though and they tend to be found in/near major cities.
I don't know if you are aware of the following site but it could be useful for you (and anyone looking to see where oil facilities are)
https://www.refinerymaps.com/
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Old 11-27-2018, 07:54 PM
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Okay so just to get this straight in my own head, do you mean processing already refined sweet light oil or being able to process sour/heavy crude into sweet light?
Crude that's been refined, is not longer refereed to as sweet, light, etc. It's referred to as the components it's been split into (kerosene, diesel, etc).
I need to know what efficiency loss there would be in using sweet crude as the feedstock for a refinery designed for heavy, thicker crude. What problems may arise which could potentially damage the equipment and restrict output.
Given we're told elsewhere that Australia wasn't nuked, I need to find a logical way of creating a serious fuel shortage for Australia and New Zealand. Part of the answer will be sabotage, but that can't account for all of it. A lot I'll need to attribute to engineering, supply and transportation limitations.
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Old 11-27-2018, 08:21 PM
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Default Why does Indonesia invade PNG?

I've spent the last hour or so looking at maps of the border region and noted there's really only two border crossing points - the main point on the north coast on the Vanimo - Jayapura highway at Wutung, and another VERY secondary point about 75km north of the southern coastline and the small town of Botar.
As can be seen in the two photos, the southern route is FAR from suitable as an invasion route, and the northern one, well...it's got more than it's fair share of problems too. Clearly water-borne transport is going to be the preferred method of supplying troops where possible, but that's very vulnerable to sea and air attack.
The border itself is extremely porous, but that's largely offset by the total lack of other roads beyond these two. Some river traffic is possible, BUT the majority of the rivers in the region flow more north-south rather than the needed east-west - their usefulness is most likely restricted to local transportation of patrols and smaller units/supplies, and totally unsuited to carrying the logistical needs of the invasion forces (or the defenders for that matter too).
So, given the terrain is so damn hostile to a large, land based force, what causes Indonesia to risk absolutely everything on what appears to be a "bridge too far" scenario?
So far my thoughts are NBC attacks on more western areas of the country forcing them to find uncontaminated areas to move into, the discovery of badly needed minerals in the border regions, and perhaps even political stupidity.

Northern route
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Southern route
Yes, it really is THAT bad!
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Old 11-28-2018, 12:57 AM
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As we know, aside from nationalistic ambition where they had once decided that all of Borneo and PNG should be Indonesian you don't just launch an invasion without some sort of payoff.
There's plenty of mineral wealth in PNG and that would be an obvious temptation for Indonesia but the root cause still remains to be answered - what causes them to "need" whatever it is that can be found in PNG?

Is the need more ephemeral, a quick distraction for whatever problems they're having at home (and it provides an easy reason to conscript the "trouble-makers" and have them shipped off to the war)?
Is it something less materialistic, the need for more land for their own overpopulated islands for example?

Could it be the spectre of starvation? They can barely produce enough food for themselves (except for rice and even then, they were still importing rice until 2012 - they needed to grow at least 76 million tons of unhusked rice to enable them to cut back on rice imports). In 2012 they still needed to import 1.6 million tons of soyabeans, 2.3 million tons of sugar and 200,000 tons of beef.

Problems for agriculture include unpredictable weather (in particularl, heavy rains) and conversion of large amounts of land from ag use to industrial use.
All this has been going on for decades and includes millions of tonnes of material wastage due to corruption, inefficiency and neglect. Combine that with the rapid halt of much needed imports, it could be enough for a desperate government to try and grab some primary industry from PNG or to even try "pulling a Falklands" trick to distract the population from bigger problems.

Indonesia has relied heavily on imports from various Asian, North American and European countries, China being a big supplier. With what's happening between the Soviet Union and China, imports are going to dry up pretty damned quick.
Although this page is relevant for the current period, I think we could assume that Indonesia was building to this level of demand for a few decades before the late 2000s. It gives a good look at just what the Indos were wanting from other nations.
http://www.worldsrichestcountries.co...a_imports.html


As for the crude oil bit, yeah, just shows how little I know about it haha

Last edited by StainlessSteelCynic; 11-28-2018 at 01:00 AM. Reason: Borneo is not spelt Bornea and also clarifying some Indonesia import info
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Old 11-28-2018, 03:26 AM
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Yeah, all that's basically the way I'm thinking too, but given the poor nature of the only two roads, and the ease in which those roads, plus the sea routes could be interdicted (as little as a couple of men with a machinegun could cause everything to grind to a sudden halt, particularly along that southern land route) there's got to be a REALLY SOLID reason for them to risk it.
Part of it could be Australia's involvement in Korea giving them the impression they'd really only have the PNG defence forces to deal with - roughly a total strength of just 2,500 people spread across all areas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_..._Defence_Force
Some Indonesian units will undoubtedly be sent to Australia's mainland for low level insurgency and sabotage (prime targets including oil refineries) which based on Australian military exercises in the 80's and 90's could tie up in excess of a brigade just in hunting them down (perhaps three times that many, or even more, providing security at expected targets).
That may just give the Indonesian offensive some small chance of success, or at least enough that they think it's worth trying...
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As for the crude oil bit, yeah, just shows how little I know about it haha
Don't worry, a week ago I didn't know all that much either! This has been a VERY steep learning curve!
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Old 11-28-2018, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
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How many refineries in Australia have these facilities? Not many but I'm not certain for sure as I only know of two that would have been operating in the 1980s-90s period (the Shell refinery at Clyde NSW and the BP refinery in Kwinana WA).
And with Garden Island (home of the biggest naval base on the western side of the continent, and a submarine base) in line of sight across the water from the Kwinana refinery, that whole area is a great big juicy target. If it wasn't nuked in the Twilight War someone would have tried to wreck it some other way.
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Last edited by Targan; 11-28-2018 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 11-28-2018, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
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And with Garden Island (home of the biggest naval base on the western side of the continent, and a submarine base) in line of sight across the water from the Kwinana refinery, that whole area is a great big juicy target. If it wasn't nuked in the Twilight War someone would have tried to wreck it some other way.
That one throwaway line in "What's Polish for G'day" is really screwing things up for me at the moment. Without nukes, just how do you damage a refinery to the point where it's production is seriously degraded for a period of at least a few years?
The answer I think (and somebody PLEASE give me more options!) is sabotage and commando attacks.
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