Mexican Army Sourcebook

[Turboswede]

Originally Posted by weswood

Said forces then sabotaging the US forces supply chain so that US forces were unable to respond in time to repel the Mexican Armed Forces.

Point taken, but there still needs to be some kind of Mexican Armed Forces. As it stands a single M60A3 with an ERA package (for the odd Milan) could pretty much take out the whole Mexican army circa real world 1996. Without some kind of force I think one could justify a terror campaign or even a guerrilla war (although in the desert that’s a tough one), but not an invasion capturing California, Arizona, New Mexico and most of Texas.

[kato13]

The Mexican Invasion is one of the three hardest points for me to reconcile (The Alaskan invasion and failure of US Continuance of government plan being the others). I still want to know who nuked Mexico. If the Sovs did why do the Mexicans allow division Cuba onto their soil. If the US did why hit the refineries and not military targets.

The only thing I can imagine the Mexicans having an advantage in is fuel and therefore mobility. Even with a fuel advantage I cannot see Mexican air power being decisive. One they are attacking the US's primary ADA school , and two the aircraft they have are generations behind what the US could send to counter them, even taking into account limited fuel.

[Turboswede]

Originally Posted by kato13

I still want to know who nuked Mexico. If the Sovs did why do the Mexicans allow division Cuba onto their soil. If the US did why hit the refineries and not military targets.

I never thought of that, maybe it was the French

[Turboswede]

Originally Posted by kato13

Even with a fuel advantage I cannot see Mexican air power being decisive.

Um, thats just funny.

Combat aircraft constituting the Mexican Air Amada, Circa 1996
10 F-5E Tiger II
2 F-5F Advanced trainers
12 AT-33s Jet trainers
12 Bell 205, 206, and 212 armed helicopters

I agree, I seriously doubt that Mexican airpower would have been decisive.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Turboswede

Um, thats just funny.

Combat aircraft constituting the Mexican Air Amada, Circa 1996
10 F-5E Tiger II
2 F-5F Advanced trainers
12 AT-33s Jet trainers
12 Bell 205, 206, and 212 armed helicopters

I agree, I seriously doubt that Mexican airpower would have been decisive.

Back in the late-1980s when Northrop was still trying to market the F-20 Tigershark, the Mexicans were very interested, but the sale was blocked by both the Reagan and George HW Bush administrations. Perhaps under other circumstances it might have gone through -- such as if US aircraft manufacturers might need the export sales to finance even more advanced aircraft for the US?

[Targan]

So what ended up happening with the F-20 Tigershark. I know, I could just go unleash some Google-Fu to find out but I'm confident one or more of you clever forumites will be able to tell me in a nice, concise way. And for that matter what would happen to the F-20 Tigershark in the T2K (version 1) timeline?

Edit: Slow day at work (public holiday in my state) so I've had a bit of a look at Wikipedia's entry on the Tigershark. As far as I can tell it (and its predecessors the F-5E and F5-G) were a very good designs, quite cheap considering their performance and were very much viable but Northrop was repeatedly shafted by the policies of the Carter and subsequent administrations. So, in the T2K world might the Tigershark or something much like it have ended up being much more common in the air forces of countries allied to the USA? All it would take would be for the Regan administration to have been a bit more paranoid about things like selling F-16s to Pakistan and Bob's your uncle.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Targan

So what ended up happening with the F-20 Tigershark. I know, I could just go unleash some Google-Fu to find out but I'm confident one or more of you clever forumites will be able to tell me in a nice, concise way. And for that matter what would happen to the F-20 Tigershark in the T2K (version 1) timeline?

Edit: Slow day at work (public holiday in my state) so I've had a bit of a look at Wikipedia's entry on the Tigershark. As far as I can tell it (and its predecessors the F-5E and F5-G) were a very good designs, quite cheap considering their performance and were very much viable but Northrop was repeatedly shafted by the policies of the Carter and subsequent administrations. So, in the T2K world might the Tigershark or something much like it have ended up being much more common in the air forces of countries allied to the USA? All it would take would be for the Regan administration to have been a bit more paranoid about things like selling F-16s to Pakistan and Bob's your uncle.

The DC Group has decided to put the F-20 into full scale production as an export fighter. (It is also mentioned in service in Iran in canon, in RDF sourcebook and Challenge magazine). Basically it was sold as a replacement for F-5s in service with a number of US Allies - especially China and Iran, but also Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and possibly Mexico.

It was produced at the same plants that turn out F/A-18s. As the demand from the US military for F/A-18s increases, production of F-20s is switched to facilities that were converted to military aircraft production - notably the Gulfstream business jet production plant in Savannah, Georgia and the Cessna, Lear and Beechcraft business jet plants in Wichita and Independence, Kansas.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by chico20854

The DC Group has decided to put the F-20 into full scale production as an export fighter. (It is also mentioned in service in Iran in canon, in RDF sourcebook and Challenge magazine). Basically it was sold as a replacement for F-5s in service with a number of US Allies - especially China and Iran, but also Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and possibly Mexico.

It was produced at the same plants that turn out F/A-18s. As the demand from the US military for F/A-18s increases, production of F-20s is switched to facilities that were converted to military aircraft production - notably the Gulfstream business jet production plant in Savannah, Georgia and the Cessna, Lear and Beechcraft business jet plants in Wichita and Independence, Kansas.

Very good. I like the work of the DC Working Group. Its been a while since I've had a proper review read through of the RDF Sourcebook and all the T2K Challenge articles so I wasn't aware that the Tigershark was mentioned there but I like what you've said Chico and so it shall be in my campaign. Thanks for the feedback.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

So what ended up happening with the F-20 Tigershark. I know, I could just go unleash some Google-Fu to find out but I'm confident one or more of you clever forumites will be able to tell me in a nice, concise way. And for that matter what would happen to the F-20 Tigershark in the T2K (version 1) timeline?

IRL, there actually was a lot of interest in the F-20, by Mexico, some South American countries, a couple of Middle Eastern countries, and (most notably), Taiwan. And for political reasons, the US Government blocked the sales each time. Northrop ended up with no one interested in the F-20 that they could legally sell it to, and eventually stopped trying.

[Raellus]

Although I think the French weapons route is probably the most realistic, I don't think Chinese weapons should be ruled out.

Yeah, I don't think the U.S. would be too thrilled about it. They'd probably try to block it. But, the Paki's, a long-time ally in Central Asia, bought a lot of Chinese gear (tanks and aircraft) back in the '70s and '80s and the U.S. never cut them off completely (although, IIRC, they held up a shipment of F-16s for a while). If the Mexicans cut a great deal with the PRC, there's not much the U.S. could really do that wouldn't seriously harm its relationship with both parties.

Perhaps the Mexicans could have used a potential big-time arms deal with China as a way of leveraging the U.S. into making them a favorable deal on F-20 Tigersharks and M-60s and/or Stingrays (i.e. "Either cut us a good deal on your American-made gear or we'll buy what we need from the Chinese- they're offering us a real ganga."

But I still think AMX-30/40s and Mirages are the way to go to boost Mexico's conventional warfighting power prior to the invasion of the U.S.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by kato13

I still want to know who nuked Mexico. If the Sovs did why do the Mexicans allow division Cuba onto their soil. If the US did why hit the refineries and not military targets.

How about Sovs hit to deny to USA the fuel... blame the USA. How is Mexico going to know the truth? The book also states they elect a marxist government so they may be more willing to believe Moscow as opposed to the Imperialists.

Originally Posted by kato13

The only thing I can imagine the Mexicans having an advantage in is fuel and therefore mobility. Even with a fuel advantage I cannot see Mexican air power being decisive. One they are attacking the US's primary ADA school , and two the aircraft they have are generations behind what the US could send to counter them, even taking into account limited fuel.

Slow build up from allies... particularly Cuba? Not the Cuba of today, but the Cuba of the 80s. That's where the tanks, artillery and aircraft come from. Add in some Nicaraguans and maybe even Venezuela (if you want to advance what's his name's ascension to power.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

How about Sovs hit to deny to USA the fuel... blame the USA. How is Mexico going to know the truth? The book also states they elect a marxist government so they may be more willing to believe Moscow as opposed to the Imperialists.

I fully agree that 95% of the population including parts of the Civilian leadership could be convinced of this, but I would expect the higher-ups in the military would have serious doubts.

[Benjamin]

I think the only way to have the Mexican invasion happen is to assume that oil paid for a military build up some time during the late eighties/ early nineties. The price of oil went up during this time giving Mexico the ability to partially recover, and perhaps pay for a rebuilt military. The 1988 presidential elections were very controversial due to a computer failure in the election process and it is possible that President Salinas, who was already deemed a fraud by some could end up assassinated. This would cause chaos and open the door for a national socialist to take power on an anti-American platform.

During the nuclear exchange, I've always assumed it was the Soviet that struck the Mexican refineries. First of all, despite Division Cuba, which seems to be a rushed on the fly commitment, there is no way the Soviets can benefit from Mexican oil. Second there is a good chance that the Soviets already had nukes targeted on Mexico during the actual Cold War. Finally, I just don't see the US nuking a non-nuke neighbor especially given the chain of command chaos occurring within the US.

As for arming Mexico...
MBT: OF-40, an Italian designed and built export MBT. It was similar to, and even used some parts from the Leo 1. In our timeline only the UAE purchased it.

The remaining vehicles could come from a mix of countries but I think they'd primarily be from Italy, France and perhaps Brazil.

Benjamin

[Raellus]

Just to play devil's advocate/v1.0 canon apologist, here are a couple things to think about.

Although not a match for an M60, the Mexicans do have quite a few Panhard ERC-90 Lynx armored cars with 90mm guns and several Panhard VBL M-11 light armored cars fitted with Milan ATGMs.

With their recent history of buying AFVs from France, I can see them buying the French Army's old AMX-30 (being replaced in French service by the LeClerc) MBTs (this is the most logical MBT procurement options listed here, IMO).

They also use the German HWK-11 tracked APC (sources suggest they've got around 40 of them). I can see the Germans building and/or retrofitting some of them with high velocity 90mm or 105mm turreted guns, creating de facto tanks.

The Mexicans retired their M4 Shermans quite some time ago but I can see them paying (w/ high priced oil export revenues) the Israelis (experts at getting the most out of the Sherman tank) to soup them up. Upgunned Israeli Shermans routinely knocked out T-54/55 and T-62 tanks during the '73 Yom Kippur War.

There's always the Chinese. A lot of the tanks (mostly Soviet T-rip-offs) they build are marketed for export. I'm sure Mexico could have bought a bunch before the the Russo-Chinese War began.

I also like the idea of other Central/South American nations sending "expeditionary forces" to Mexico to assist in an offensive against the U.S.

Also, as Wes said, Mexican Army SF would have infiltrated dozens of teams across the rather porous border in the months and weeks prior to the invasion. They would launch a series of attacks against C&C and transportation networks immediately preceding the conventional invasion.

I was researching this same topic a few months ago and came across these sites. I hope they prove useful to you.

http://www.paperlessarchives.com/mexico.html

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/mxtoc.html

Lastly, perhaps the Soviets approached the Mexicans with promises of economic and military aid (Division Cuba being the down payment) in a sort of Zimmerman Note parallel.

[Turboswede]

Thanks everyone. The more I think about it the more I could see the Mexicans taking France's AMX-30s. I am sure that the French would unload them at a bargain price (always important to SEDENA). Granted, the T-55 and Chinese Type 59 are arguably better tanks (better armor, similar mobility, worse gun) but I think the US would have vehemently opposed any arms transfers from the Warsaw Pact or PRC to Mexico, especially in the late 80’s. The nice thing about France is that we are nominal allies, but we let the French sell arms to just about anyone.

I think the Mexican version of the AMX-30 would need ERA. Without it they would never get past San Diego or El Paso. Every 16 year old kid would be punching holes in them with M72s.

For the APC/IFV I think they could make some pretty cool derivatives of the “DN” series which is basically a LAV-150. Put a 25mm cannon and a Milan on it and you have a good IFV, etc. Only problem is wheels vs. tracks, I don’t think that would be a major problem in the desert/urban setting (look at how we employ LAVs in Iraq).

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I also like the idea of other Central/South American nations sending "expeditionary forces" to Mexico to assist in an offensive against the U.S.

In my campaign that is also what happened in Panama.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kato13

I still want to know who nuked Mexico. If the Sovs did why do the Mexicans allow division Cuba onto their soil. If the US did why hit the refineries and not military targets.

Last week someone pointed out that SLBMs launched at France would allow an attacker to plausibly deny having nuked Franch targets.So whether or not it was the Soviets that nuked Mexico, if they denied it how would the Mexicans know any better?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kato13

I still want to know who nuked Mexico. If the Sovs did why do the Mexicans allow division Cuba onto their soil. If the US did why hit the refineries and not military targets.

Perhaps it was the French?
Although Mexico isn't now, nor is likely to ever be a military power, leaving their industry untouched after the war might lead to them being an economic competitor to France (France itself having been nuked, if not back to the stone age, at least half a century or so).
Destroying Mexico's future and it's ability to assist any other potential rivals to French power, might be something considered by elements in the French government.
With the nuclear exchanges of late 1997 as a cover, France cements their future role as a superpower....

And with France possibly selling old military equipment off to Mexico beforehand, it muddies the waters even more. The sale of such equipment is also in France's long term best interests as it potentially sets two of their rivals at each others throats reducing future pressure on France.

A little paranoid perhaps, but fits better than either Nato or the WP nuking them.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Perhaps it was the French?

So the Mexican's in Texas are just on their way to Quebec for revenge?