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Old 11-12-2019, 11:06 AM
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Default Just an Idea...

If an automatic weapon has a ROF of 800 RPM, should it have a game ROF of 8?
It it has a ROF of 550-600, maybe a game ROF of 6?
450 RPM, game ROF of 5?

?

Pros and Cons.
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Old 11-12-2019, 04:13 PM
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Seems reasonable at first glance. Obviously burst limiters and recoil would be factors, but you already know that.
Without me having to dredge up the formula myself, what's the current way of calculating burst size?
How would you model reduction of dice for the non-standard burst sizes?
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Old 11-12-2019, 04:46 PM
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I believe someone actually used that idea for their own house rules although I can't recall where I saw it.
I have a recollection that part of the reason for adopting the idea was the difference that it made to the various small arms (i.e. most select-fire rifles in the vanilla rules have almost the same stats but this idea showed the difference between various weapons).
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Old 11-12-2019, 05:36 PM
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One point sticking in my mind is you've got high cyclic rate of fire with many lighter weapons. Like I touched on before though, recoil will likely deal with any players wanting to use assault rifles for example as automatic support weapons, so that's probably a bit of a non-issue.
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Old 11-12-2019, 05:45 PM
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Another semi-related point which just popped into my head is heat build up. I can't recall any rule system that adequately, or even vaguely touches on the need for barrel changes, water cooling, etc. They all just assume you can simply squeeze off a few thousand rounds in a couple of minutes and not have the barrel melt.
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Old 11-12-2019, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Seems reasonable at first glance. Obviously burst limiters and recoil would be factors, but you already know that.
Without me having to dredge up the formula myself, what's the current way of calculating burst size?
According to IWotW, anything under 700 RPM cyclic is ROF 5 (or 3 if it has a limiter), between 701 and 1000 is ROF 10, 1001 to 5000 is 50, and 5001+ is 100.
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Old 11-13-2019, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Another semi-related point which just popped into my head is heat build up. I can't recall any rule system that adequately, or even vaguely touches on the need for barrel changes, water cooling, etc. They all just assume you can simply squeeze off a few thousand rounds in a couple of minutes and not have the barrel melt.
I believe Palladium's Recon or Advanced Recon paid some attention to heat build-up on machine guns. I haven't played either of those two or even seen the rules so I can only go on what some old gaming mates told me in the 1990s and I believe they had interpreted the rules far too literally - like, "you have to change the barrel on the M60 every 200 rounds or the barrel will melt" literally.

They were straight up civvies so they had no idea about how rate of fire effects heat build up and how the 200-rd limit is a procedure to prolong the life span & accuracy of the barrel and not a limitation of the barrels abilities etc. etc.
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Old 11-13-2019, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
If an automatic weapon has a ROF of 800 RPM, should it have a game ROF of 8?
It it has a ROF of 550-600, maybe a game ROF of 6?
450 RPM, game ROF of 5?

?

Pros and Cons.
That's my houserule. I adopted it because it was the easiest way to do bursts around one-half of a second in duration (it's actually 6/10ths of a second for such a burst rate in reality). The half-second burst rate is the most accurate rate of fire in NFA/Class III matches and produces reasonable accuracy at short range. I always round cyclic rates DOWN to take into account dirty weapons, poor quality ammo, and more time spent in target acquisition and trigger control.

In Twilight2000, it also allows the GM to manage autofire at ONE BURST per one-second Initiative Step. This reduces the lethality of 6 Initiative characters by interspersing their bursts/shots (at one per Initiative Step) among the slower combatants. It also makes the number of D20s the Player must roll a more reasonable number (per burst/second).
I do change RECOIL to that calculated by burst or shot in a one-second round. Thus, a MAC-10 (ROF12, RCL 2?... I don't have my book handy) would be generating a Recoil of 12 per one-second burst. I use excess recoil to reduce the number of rounds on target (dice rolled) these days.

RCL and ROF can interact in unique ways. Let's look at battle rifles. A G3 will have an average Cyclic rate of 550rpm. If RCL is 3 (roller-locking is smooth) you get a RCL of 8 (rounding up as I do) for a full burst. The FAL is also fairly smooth with a RCL of 3 but has a 600rpm ROF. This gives the FAL a RCL of 9 and a ROF of 6. The M14 is notoriously hard to handle in recoil even in single fire mode. It's 700rpm was nearly uncontrollable even in "experienced hands." The rifle will "climb like a monkey" and the sights will bounce all over the place (unlike the FAL or G3). The lack of a pistol grip doesn't help but is more problematic than in older designs like the BAR (which is actually more controllable than the M14 in autofire). This gives the M14 a RCL of 4 with a ROF of 7. The RCL of a burst becomes 14, essentially uncontrollable for a STR of 5 or less. I find that the interaction between Recoil and Rate of Fire produce unique characteristics that help "define" how a given weapon will be used during play. I have NEVER had any real issues with the variable ROF system. It works quite well.

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Old 11-14-2019, 09:51 AM
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As a side note, with the M60s low ROF (about 550 RPM), I found out when I was in the ARNG and when we were using MILES than you can use the M60 as a sniper rifle, if a somewhat inaccurate one, because it is easy to squeeze off single shots with one without having to jerk the trigger.
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Old 11-14-2019, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
I believe Palladium's Recon or Advanced Recon paid some attention to heat build-up on machine guns. I haven't played either of those two or even seen the rules so I can only go on what some old gaming mates told me in the 1990s and I believe they had interpreted the rules far too literally - like, "you have to change the barrel on the M60 every 200 rounds or the barrel will melt" literally.
Now that a good idea, tell us how you implemented it in T2000!
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Old 11-14-2019, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
As a side note, with the M60s low ROF (about 550 RPM), I found out when I was in the ARNG and when we were using MILES than you can use the M60 as a sniper rifle, if a somewhat inaccurate one, because it is easy to squeeze off single shots with one without having to jerk the trigger.
I always found it hard to fire off the required 5-10 round bursts from the '60. Just felt like I was burning through too much ammo at a time. Personally I MUCH preferred 3-5 round bursts at a more rapid rate even though that's not what the official policy was at the time.
Interesting to see that a few years later the Minimi bursts were supposed to be the smaller 2-3 rounds I believe....
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Old 11-14-2019, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
I believe Palladium's Recon or Advanced Recon paid some attention to heat build-up on machine guns.
From what I can see it's little more than lip service. Found this (and only this) in "The Compendium of Contemporary Weapons" in the "Light Machineguns" section:
Quote:
The gunner only has to release a latch or lock and he can change a hot barrel for a cool one in approximately 20 to 30 seconds.
Nothing in Advanced Recon, and don't have a copy of the original ruleset to check.
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Old 11-14-2019, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
I always found it hard to fire off the required 5-10 round bursts from the '60.
We were taught in Basic that when firing the M60, you say in your head, "fire a burst of six" and you end up with the required burst of 6-9. Remember, you're supposed to be firing somewhat long bursts -- it's a support weapon, not a rifle (regardless of the way I tended to use it).
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:21 PM
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Speaking of machineguns as rifles, it's uncanny how closely an M60 resembles a rifle when you remove the bipod. Even at relatively close range most people mistake it for a lighter weapon.

The other issue with burst size is I almost always operated without a No2 that was any use, so I ended up carrying all the ammo.
ALL the ammo.
Could never rely on getting a new belt when and where I needed it.
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:44 PM
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Just remembered the only time I fired off large bursts.
The trigger group retaining pin clip went missing so, naturally, the pin was free to slide out and trigger group fall off (not my fault, all the M60s in the battalion where recalled by the local armourer the following day and completely overhauled - our unit armourer was utterly incompetent).
We had an attack planned later that day (we using blanks, while Vickers fired live rounds about ten metres over us on fixed lines as "battlefield simulation"), and of course as one of the three machinegunners in the attacking platoon, I couldn't exactly go in unarmed.
So, twenty round belts were prepared and when I needed to fire, it was a case of load, pull back the cocking handle and...
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Old 11-15-2019, 02:11 AM
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And I reckon Leg, that at the time you and I got our hands on the M60 they were probably 20 years old at least. They had been well and truly used & abused.
I twice had a -60 go runaway on me due to wearing down of the notch on the operating rod that was supposed to engage the safety sear. The first experience was "What The Hell! OMGWTF!!!!!!!" - fortunately only had about 8-12 rounds left on the belt.
The second experience was "Oh, this again'. Had about 20-25 rounds on the belt and no Number Two so I decided to ride that one long burst just for the hell of it (rather than try to break such a short belt with one hand).

Both times happened in the early 1990s so those guns were pushing 30 years old by then.
I found out that later builds of the M60 (i.e. the M60E3 & E4) featured two or three notches on the operating rod, I think to prevent that particular problem.
Ah ha! Found an image of what I mean and I see that there were rods made with two notches and rods made with three. I have no idea if that correlates to the E3 and E4 versions respectively but I wouldn't be surprised as it can be seen on the image below, the two-notch rod has some wear on the first safety notch.
Seems to me that the extra notches are a decent way to avoid throwing out an entirely still usable operating rod plus they'd give a minor decrease in overall weight for a much better safety factor.



Image from here http://beltfeds.com/m60-operating-rod-assembly/

I felt the same way as you Leg, 3-5 round bursts were my preferred choice but part of that was also to do with doctrine. When I was first being trained as a section gunner, we were taught the normal rate of fire was "bursts of 3-5 rounds, as required". I can't recall the specifics without digging out my old notebooks but I believe that fixed lines was the only rate of fire that required a burst of 10 or so rounds.
When I did my Sustained Fire Machine Gun course, the highest normal rate of fire we would employ was I think Double Rapid which was bursts of 10-20 rounds.
(Not to mention the anti-aircraft ROF which was taught officially as being the weapons cyclic rate and unofficially as "hold down the trigger until you shoot that bastard out of the sky")

As an aside, because I had the experience with the -60 and if I was feeling a bit cheeky (or perhaps smug is a better description!) when we had new guys being trained at the range, I'd deliberately squeeze off one round every second or so and smirk at their lack of ability to get a burst lower than 8-10 rounds.
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Old 11-15-2019, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
Now that a good idea, tell us how you implemented it in T2000!
As mentioned, I never saw the rules for Recon or Advanced Recon and I was going on what people told me at the time and me having been trained on the M60 I thought that they had misunderstood the rules.
So from that perspective, there was nothing to try and incorporate from Recon into T2k.

From what Leg has found out, it seems more likely that whoever was running Recon/Advanced Recon at the time had some vague knowledge of barrel heating and barrel changes and applied his misunderstanding to the game, as it appears there are no real rules at all in the Recon games to deal with barrel changes.
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Old 11-15-2019, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
As mentioned, I never saw the rules for Recon or Advanced Recon and I was going on what people told me at the time and me having been trained on the M60 I thought that they had misunderstood the rules.
So from that perspective, there was nothing to try and incorporate from Recon into T2k.

From what Leg has found out, it seems more likely that whoever was running Recon/Advanced Recon at the time had some vague knowledge of barrel heating and barrel changes and applied his misunderstanding to the game, as it appears there are no real rules at all in the Recon games to deal with barrel changes.
I think I can take a look. I believe I have copies of those games as PDFs -- maybe. Let me see.
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Old Today, 11:40 AM
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Now that a good idea, tell us how you implemented it in T2000!
I tie the machinegun's heat to BOTH the weapon's Reliability and the number of belts of an average round count for that gun (ie 100 for most GPMGs and 200 for most SAWs) fired. This number [which I call Dependability] ranges from 1 (for older .50 Caliber MGs) to as many as 10 (for a liquid-cooled Maxim) and represents the number of belts you can fire before problems begin.

RELIABILITY:

This is the weapon's normal reliability and determines when a jam might occur. It is an "evolution" of my earlier houserule.

Good Reliability: The weapon will only jam on a roll of 20 IF the user rolls EQUAL TO OR UNDER the weapon's WEAR VALUE.

Average Reliability: The weapon automatically jams on a roll of 20 but the user can roll OVER the weapon's current WEAR VALUE to shoot a burst BEFORE the weapon jams. On a roll of 19, the weapon jams IF the user rolls EQUAL TO OR UNDER the weapon's WEAR VALUE. A burst is considered fired before the jam.

Poor Reliability: The weapon automatically jams on a roll of 20. NO burst is fired too. On a roll of 19, The weapon jams BUT a burst/shot may be fired IF the user rolls OVER the weapon's WEAR VALUE. On a roll of 18, a burst is fired BUT the weapon jams.

Reliability goes hand-in-hand with the machinegun's Dependability ratings.

The Dependability Rating:

As previously mentioned, the Dependability rating is the number of BELTS/MAGS (of a typical round-count) that can be fired BEFORE issues arise. Once the "belt count" has been exceeded without a barrel change, the user rolls against the weapon's WEAR VALUE. IF they roll EQUAL TO OR UNDER the weapon's WEAR VALUE, reduce the base range by 5m (hand-held/shoulder-fired) and decrease reliability by one number (ie a 19 or 20 average reliability becomes poor, while poor reliability weapons will now jam on a roll of 17 too). IF the user rolls 5 or more under the WEAR VALUE'S THRESHOLD number, a Catastrophic event like a "blown/melted barrel" or a "runaway gun" occurs! This roll is made for each new belt without a barrel change.

I found this to be the best balance between a "user-friendly" houserule and "gritty realism."

Last edited by swaghauler; Today at 07:23 PM. Reason: spelling
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