US Army AAA in T2K

[madmikechoi]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

The first was a self-contained module like the CROWS (common remotely operated weapon system) with a millimeter wave radar and an optical tracker paired to a GAU 19 50 Caliber gatling gun and TWO 4-round Stinger Missile modules. It had 2k rounds on the mount and was designed as a swarm drone defense system with a secondary ground attack capability. The unit would be mounted to either a Hummer or a JLTV with the crew firing the mount remotely from inside the uparmored vehicle. Unit weight was listed as around 2 metric tons fully armed with remote fire control station. This is only slightly heavier than a Navy MK38 25mm gun mount.

I think this might be the Hummvee Avenger replacement since the Hummvee is on its way out as a frontline tactical platform. Other than being on the newer vehicle w/ updated comms I'm not so sure what real advantages mounting a Stinger pod on a CROWs would bring. Maybe newer/better optics?

The other unit (fully experimental) caught my eye because it would fill the gap between the PATRIOT and SHORAD. The proposal was an M109 chasiss fitted with a tall turret containing an AESA radar, IR Tracker, IR optical sensor and Laser ranger/Designator. The weapon system consisted of either a 3 or 4 round box launcher trainable in elevation on either side of the turret for Rolling Airframe Missiles AND a center-mounted 57mm MK110 Cannon (with a pretty long barrel). The canon was equipped with a dual feeding mechanism on either side of the cannon containing 10 rounds in a vertically feed hopper and ejected its spent casings forward over the barrel and towards the right of the hull deck (to avoid the driver). 40 additional rounds would be stored in the turret bustle for 60 rounds on the mount. The listed Crew is driver, gunner, commander, and two loaders for the 57mm (one on either side of the cannon). I don't know if any more RAM Missiles were carried. The radar folded down for transport just like most modern SPAAGs can do. It looked about as tall as an M109A6 with an equally large turret and turret bustle (the back of the turret where ammo is stored). The drawing had access doors on the back of the turret (presumably to speed up reloading the ammo). Effective engagement range was touted as 10km with a 6km slant range for the cannon. The IR Optical tracking allows for NOE aircraft engagement and operations in a radar-denied environment. IDK if any actual prototypes are running around yet but the Marines new hybrid LAV turret's Stinger weapons mount looks suspiciously like the SHORAD mount's box launchers.

That's less of SHORADS and more like a corps level ADA battalion paired w/ Hawks, Patriots, ground based AMRRAAMs to provide in close in/lower altitude coverage against leakers and low flying aircraft, cruise missiles, etc. And there are plenty of towed AA gun systems w/ accompanying fire control systems that can be made to work with missiles and if they can't be integrated at brigade level and below then the guns can do their own thing of shooting anything down that missiles cannot reach provided one is willing to sacrifice a certain amount of friendly a/c and the occasional casualty from rounds landing on peoples' heads

Which brings us back to this. Remember, the US Roland system was supposed to be a corps based asset and the guns and MANPADs were divisional, The problem was US Roland was axed at only 24 or 25 launchers plus developmental systems and several hundred rounds (including developmental, proof of concept, engineering/demo and/or prototypes). It got to the point where the US paid Britain and the Luftwaffe to raise more troops for the RAF Regiment and Flugabwehtraketentruppen or more accurately the Rapier and Roland launchers and rounds to provide coverage of USAF bases in England and Germoney.

Mad Mikec

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by madmikechoi

I think this might be the Hummvee Avenger replacement since the Hummvee is on its way out as a frontline tactical platform. Other than being on the newer vehicle w/ updated comms I'm not so sure what real advantages mounting a Stinger pod on a CROWs would bring. Maybe newer/better optics?




That's less of SHORADS and more like a corps level ADA battalion paired w/ Hawks, Patriots, ground based AMRRAAMs to provide in close in/lower altitude coverage against leakers and low flying aircraft, cruise missiles, etc. And there are plenty of towed AA gun systems w/ accompanying fire control systems that can be made to work with missiles and if they can't be integrated at brigade level and below then the guns can do their own thing of shooting anything down that missiles cannot reach provided one is willing to sacrifice a certain amount of friendly a/c and the occasional casualty from rounds landing on peoples' heads

Which brings us back to this. Remember, the US Roland system was supposed to be a corps based asset and the guns and MANPADs were divisional, The problem was US Roland was axed at only 24 or 25 launchers plus developmental systems and several hundred rounds (including developmental, proof of concept, engineering/demo and/or prototypes). It got to the point where the US paid Britain and the Luftwaffe to raise more troops for the RAF Regiment and Flugabwehtraketentruppen or more accurately the Rapier and Roland launchers and rounds to provide coverage of USAF bases in England and Germoney.

Mad Mikec

Both of these are being fielded to the Company and Battalion level and are designed to combat DRONES and LOITERING MUNITIONS. I think the Army is watching both the Russian and Israeli loitering munitions being used in Syria. In addition, Iran has had a lot of success with drone strikes against Saudi Arabia. That is why they are testing these.

The new SHORAD has millimeter wave radar, an IRST sight, and 3-barreled GAU 19 .50 caliber gatling gun with a 2000 round ROF. It is clearly designed to shoot a lot of rounds at fast moving targets.

The new M109 hulled ADA only has a range of 10km for it's weapons systems. The typical aircraft-launched AT missile (like a Maverick) can hit from up to 25km away. It is clearly being considered for a "CLOSE PROTECTION" role for armored vehicles or other assets and is stated as being for drone suppression.

I believe the SLAMRAAM is for medium range engagements.

[Hybris]

WED, JUL 01, 1998 10:23 CET
Bofors Weapon Systems, a Celsius Group business unit, has received an order from the Swedish Materiel Administration (FMV) for TriKA the new air defence system destined for the Swedish Coastal Artillery. The TriKA fire unit, a variant of Tridon, is modular, vehicle mounted and is based on existing 40 mm guns with the new electric laying system and integrated fire control. The system is intended for protecting mobile combat units in the battle zone. As TriKA is modular future upgrading can be easily carried out. According to Magnus Ingesson, president of Bofors Weapon Systems, the order is important as it forms a part of the ongoing 40 mm air defence gun upgrading programme. It can also lead to other countries becoming interested in the concept as the Bofors 40 mm gun is to be found in many countries throughout the world.


TRIDON
The TRIDON Air Defence Gun System is a 40 mm VSHORAD development concept in several configurations. TRIDON can also be a cost-effective upgrading alternative and has been configured to meet and destroy the air threat wherever it appears. It is a high fire-power, highly mobile autonomous 40 mm gun system mounted on a 6x6 all-terrain chassis. The system concept gives short reaction time, high firing endurance and deployment in less than 60 seconds.
Everyting required to combat the enemy, from command and control to ammunition and spares is carried on mount. And with Bofors 40 mm 3P ammunition it can take on almost any threat and defeat lightly armoured vehicles, surface targets, concealed troops and attack helicopers. For the Swedich costal defence forces a version called TriKA is under development. A prototype with optronic fire control system was tested during 1998 and was fitted with IR-search system for trial during 1999.

[Hybris]

Swedish Army operates around 30 Lvkv 90 self-propelled anti-aircraft guns



Country of origin Sweden
Entered service Mid 1990s
Crew 3 men
Dimensions and weight
Weight 22.8 t
Length (gun forward) 6.55 m
Hull length 6.47 m
Width 3.17 m
Height 3.45 m
Armament
Main gun 1 x 40 mm
Machine guns 1 x 7.62 mm
Projectile weight 0.96 kg
Maximum slant range 4 km
Maximum firing range 12.5 km
Rate of fire 300 rpm
Elevation range - 8 to + 50 degrees
Traverse range 360 degrees
Ammunition load
Main gun 240 rounds
Machine guns 500 rounds
Mobility
Engine SAAB-Scania DS14 diesel
Engine power 550 hp
Maximum road speed 70 km/h
Range 320 km
Maneuverability
Gradient 60%
Side slope 30%
Vertical step 1.2 m
Trench 2.9 m
Fording ~ 1.2 m
Fording (with preparation) Amphibious


The Luftvärnskanonvagn 90 or LvKv 90 self-propelled anti-aircraft gun was developed in early 90s. This vehicle is also referred as the CV 9040 AA. Around 30 of these vehicles are in service with the Swedish Army.

The LvKv 90 is armed with the Bofors L70B 40 mm gun. This gun is fed from box-shaped magazines, containing 24 rounds each. Magazine is reloaded manually within 20 seconds. The LvKv 90 fires programmable proximity fused fragmentation rounds against air targets and HE-FRAG and AP rounds against ground targets. Maximum effective range against air targets is 4 km.

Secondary armament consists of coaxial 7.62 mm machine gun. It is used for self-defense against enemy infantry.

The LvKv 90 is fitted with modern fire control system. Vehicle radar has maximum detection range of 14 km. The LvKv has a friend-or-foe identification system and can track up to 6 targets simultaneously.

Front armor of the LvKv 90 provides protection against armor-piercing rounds fired from small caliber cannons. All-round protection is against small arms fire and artillery shell splinters. Vehicle is fitted with NBC protection and automatic fire suppression systems.

The LvKv 90 is based on the CV 90 IFV chassis. Vehicle is powered by the SAAB-Scania DS14 diesel engine, developing 550 horsepower. The LvKv 90 is fully amphibious after fitting a floatation kit. On water it is propelled by its tracks.



Variants



LvKv 90 TD, technology demonstrator to prepare for upgrades to the existing fleet. It has a number of improvements and is capable of firing on the move.

LvKv 90 C, uparmored variant, intended for international peacekeeping operations.

[Ursus Maior]

The thing with SHORAD, and even more so with VSHORAD, is that you want similar levels of mobility and protection than the maneuver element you are guarding against airborne threats. That is why the Bundeswehr had Gepard SPAAGs and Roland mobile SAM-launchers on armored chassis for their brigades, divisions and corps, but the Luftwaffe used Roland on MAN 8×8 trucks for the protection of air-bases.

Puttin a gun on a truck is not the same, even if said truck is somewhat armored and has gut mobility cross-country. The levels of protection and mobility will always be different and that is a problem for near-peer engagements, since your SPAAGs and SHORAD SAMs will be within striking distance of direct fire by the enemy. That is even more true today than it was during the later Cold War: back then, tank guns and ATGMs reached out 3-5 km beyond the forward line of enemy troops (FLET); or forward edge of battle area (FEBA), respectively, depending upon you perspective. Back then, battlefield ground-surveillance radars had a range of 20 km, today that's a distance easily overcome by beyond-line-of-sight missiles like Spike NLOS (quad-mountedable on pick-up trucks).

With the ever increasing threat by small to medium-sized drones, non-hardened (V)SHORAD-solutions are simply not going to survive long enough. Drone can now (or in the very near future) use swarm attacks to saturate SPAAGs or make them give away their positions for long-range artillery or NLOS ATAGMs to strike them from afar. A guntruck with a radar mounted is simply not going to cut it against near-peer opponents, especially since these have invested highly into drones.