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  #1  
Old 06-06-2009, 10:25 AM
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Default List of European Nuke Strikes?

I was wondering... are there any lists or maps showing the European nuke strikes?
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  #2  
Old 06-06-2009, 10:29 AM
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I've never seen one anywhere.
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Old 06-06-2009, 10:45 AM
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I don't recall seeing any definitive Target List for mainland Europe. There was very fine line between the tactical exchange on military targets and the targeting of rear area strategic targets with tactical nuclear warheads. This of course morphed into a full strategic nuclear exchange using long range ballistic weapons with yields near or above the megaton range.

To compile any sort of list, one would have to read all of the European based source material to get information directly from the text. This would be very time consuming and almost certainly reveal at least some contradictions. Many of the references of nuclear strike locations within the various modules seemed to be plot driven, though there is often a direct connection to a past military campaign in the area. Unfortunately, there was never an in depth military history of the war that covered all of the major operations and campaigns.

We might be able to work up a decent Target List for France, Belgium, Mexico and a few other neutrals based upon known oil facilities and important strategic targets.

Benjamin
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Old 06-06-2009, 10:30 PM
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The map that came with the v.1 boxed set and the similar map that came with Going Home showed the cities that had been nuked (although some could have been reduced to rubble in other ways). As Benjamin says, it would be time consuming to transcribe them all. As a GM I try to keep detailed notes of randomly generated radiated areas that were tac nuke targets.
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Targan
The map that came with the v.1 boxed set and the similar map that came with Going Home showed the cities that had been nuked (although some could have been reduced to rubble in other ways). As Benjamin says, it would be time consuming to transcribe them all. As a GM I try to keep detailed notes of randomly generated radiated areas that were tac nuke targets.
Thanks for reminding me of this Targan.

I finally got a chance to look at these maps. Cities listed in Parentheses are show as rubble. Given the extent of devastation present on the maps I am going to assume that these are tac nukes.

As for being time consuming I just mapped out 520 canon units so the Strikes will be no problem.
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Old 06-28-2009, 01:32 AM
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Here are the 88 cities listed as rubble on the 2 maps GDW provided (From The Basic Rules and Going Home Module)

Brest, Belarus
Grodno , Belarus
Antwerpen, Belgium
Gent, Belgium
Prague , Czech
Ostrava, Czech Republic
Lille, France
Berlin, Germany
Bonn, Germany
Borchum, Germany
Bremen, Germany
Dortmund, Germany
Dresden, Germany
Duisburg, Germany
Dusseldorf, Germany
Emmerich, Germany
Erfurt, Germany
Essen, Germany
Frankfurt an Oder, Germany
Gara, Germany
Gorlitz, Germany
Gotha, Germany
Hagen, Germany
Hamburg, Germany
Hannover, Germany
Honnef, Germany
Jena, Germany
Karl-Marx-Stadt, Germany
Kiel, Germany
Koln, Germany
Leipzig, Germany
Lubeck, Germany
Mulheim, Germany
Munchen Gladbach, Germany
Operhausen, Germany
Rees, Germany
Remagen, Germany
Siegen, Germany
Wesel, Germany
Wuppertal, Germany
Zwickau, Germany
Alphen ad Rijn, Netherlands
Amsterdam , Netherlands
Breskens, Netherlands
Delft, Netherlands
Dordrecht, Netherlands
Elten, Netherlands
Gorinchem, Netherlands
Gouda, Netherlands
Haarlem, Netherlands
Hoek van Holland, Netherlands
Katwijk aan Zee, Netherlands
Leiden, Netherlands
Middelharris, Netherlands
Rotterdam, Netherlands
s Gravenhage, Netherlands
Terneuzen, Netherlands
Utrecht, Netherlands
Vllssingen, Netherlands
Zevenaar, Netherlands
Bialystok, Poland
Bydgoszcz, Poland
Bytom, Poland
Chorzow, Poland
Czestochowa, Poland
Elblag, Poland
Gdansk, Poland
Gilwice, Poland
Gorzow Wielkop, Poland
Jelenia Gora, Poland
Katowice, Poland
Kielce, Poland
Loniza, Poland
Olsztyn, Poland
Opole, Poland
Poznan, Poland
Przemysl, Poland
Radom, Poland
Sosnowiec, Poland
Stargard, Poland
Szczecin, Poland
Tarnow, Poland
Warsaw, Poland
Wloclawek, Poland
Wroclaw, Poland
Zabrze, Poland
Kovel , Ukraine
Lviv, Ukraine


Here are Canon strikes I received from Chico (thanks again)

Bytom, Poland (Black Madonna)
Chorzow, Poland (BM)
Czestokowa, Poland (BM)
Gliwice, Poland (BM))
Katowice, Poland (BM)
Nowa Huta, Poland (Free City)
Radom, Poland
Sosnowiec, Poland (BM)
Tarnow, Poland (Soviet Vehicle Guide)
Warsaw, Poland

This makes me think it is going to be a pretty good match. I will however remove several cities on the Rhine which are listed as rubble. The devastation on the Rhine is total, and I don't think the Soviets would have concentrated on those areas (neglecting others). I believe most of the devastation is due to the conflict with the French which I believe did not have any nukes involved. Though if a city has a large refinery I will still probably nuke it.
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Old 06-28-2009, 05:15 AM
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I reviewed the list given by Kato (taken from basic rules) and disagreed on a few cities. I also found that several were missed. As a result, I tried to complete this list and give it country by country. I left UK aside (as I like the target listed in the game) and I didn’t cover Scandinavia as I consider that it might not have been targeted at all. I also considered that very little city strike hit south-eastern Europe except for one on Ankara (Turkey). However, a number of tactical strikes were registered on the battlefields.

Baltic states region:
- Kaliningrad.

Belarus:
- Brest-Litovsk (Brest)
- Grodno
- Minsk

Ukraine:
- Cerkassy
- Lvov (Lviv)
- Kovel
- Kiev
- Odessa

Poland: report to Kato’s list.

Czech Republic: report to Kato’s list.

Germany: report to Kato’s list.
However, I disagree with Kato on one thing, I considered the Rhineland to be levelled and even add several among the cities that are geographically closed.(such as Frankfurt on Mainz)

Netherlands: entirely agree (poor Dutch).

Belgium: (No reason to bomb Ghent, that is a non-sense)
- Antwerpen
- Ostende
- Brussel

France:
- Lille (several hit on Calais, Cambrai, Denain, Dunkirk, Lille and Valencienne).
- Strasburg
- Le Havre
- Brest
- Lorient (nuclear sub base)
- Toulouse (aircraft and space industries)
I consider that Lyon and Marseille survived leaving two major refineries intact.

Italy:
- Torino
- Milano
- Bologna
- Napoli
- Tarento

Portugal
- Lissabon
- Porto (the city survived but the northern area was nuked because of the refinery there)

Spain
- Barcelona
- Bilbao
- Madrid
- Zaragossa
- Valencia
- Cadiz

Italy, Portugal and Spain were not primary targets but I consider that their industrial centers were hit.
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  #8  
Old 06-28-2009, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoender
I reviewed the list given by Kato (taken from basic rules) and disagreed on a few cities. I also found that several were missed.
I believe his are cannon listed hits.
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Old 06-28-2009, 09:11 AM
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Yeah My hits are canon hits but I will map any list someone works out. Mohoender we will have to discuss the warhead size for your strike targets in addition to your OOBs.

Wasn't sure if you have seen my maps (ok now I am sure as I checked the server logs) but this is what I am going for. (These are all canon listed strikes)

Map of CONUS Nuke strikes.
Map of Canadian Nuclear Targets
Map of USSR nuclear strikes.
Map of British Nuclear Targets


A few USSR hits are wrong (because I listened to Google over Chico Doh!). If you have any questions of want an excel file of the hits let me know.
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Old 06-28-2009, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusilier
I believe his are cannon listed hits.
I understood that. I was not saying that I disagreed with Kato. I disagree with cannon. Nevertheless, the level of disagreement is not that high.

A point with which I disagree almost entirely, however, are the Kt/Mt level given per cannon. But, from memory (and according to informations available at the time) they make sense.

When you look at the USA, for exemple, it feels strange when you know what ICBM/SLBM were available to soviet union:

about 30 SS-24 Scalpel (10x550kt MIRV). (not retired)

150 SS-17 Spanker (4x550kt MIRV or 750kt single warhead). (retired in 1994)

200-300 SS-18 Satan (20-25Mt single warhead or 10x550kt MIRV). (not entirely retired or replaced by Mod.5). The 20-25Mt warheads were targeted at US ICBM base and hardened commands.

about 50 SS-13 Savage (750kt single warhead). (retired in 1995)

250-300 SS-25 Sickle (550kt single warhead). (not retired)

SS-N-6 Serb on Yankee I (possibly 1MT but more probably 3x200kt MIRV) (retired in 1994)

250-300 SS-N-8 Sawfly on Delta I and II (1MT single warhead). (not retired but reduced in number)

200-250 SS-N-18 Stingray on Delta III (400kt single warhead or 7x100kt MIRV). (not retired but reduced in number)

120 SS-N-20 sturgeon on Typhoon (10x100kt MIRV). (not retired but reduced in number)

This would be for missiles targeting US alone. As a result, I would expect several 20Mt burst to have occured and several target would have been hit by MIRV instead of single warheads. NATO would certainly have used more MIRV and little high power single warhead. Then, I find logical for the french to have retained their SLBM in reserve.

In Europe, I would expect SRBM and MRBM not to be withdrawn and to see extensive use toward second level targets (cities of Poland and targets in eastern europe, for exemple) and on the battlefield.

These would include

for US: MGM-31A Pershing, MGM-31B Pershing II and MGM-52 Lance. Funny how people focussed on the Pershing (200-250 in US and 150-200 in Germany) while 1000 Lance launcher had been deployed (and more than 2000 missiles manufactured).

for Russia: SS-23 Spider (127 and 64 launchers). Scud had been retired since the 1970's and replaced by 400 SS-20 Saber. May be 60 SS-4 sandal (unsure).

for France: Pluton (109 and 70 launchers). Actually these would have been replaced by Hadès prior to the war. 18 SSBS S-3 on the Albion Plateau.

You can expect several of the french Pluton/Hadès to have been launched on Germany and Netherlands.

At last you can add the cruise missiles (but several will not be equipped with nukes).
for US: about 1500.
for the soviets: about 1500.

In addition France would use the ASMP (on Mirage IV, Mirage 2000 and Super Etendard).
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Old 06-28-2009, 04:04 PM
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For Europe, canon hits aren't everything. There will be small tactical nuke hits as well, where nukes were used against enemy units, airfields, and smaller naval bases or to deny areas to the enemy. There will the remains of backpack-type nukes that were used to take out division or corps HQ (or higher) units, dams, large ammunition storage facilities, and other small but high-value targets.
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Old 06-28-2009, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b
For Europe, canon hits aren't everything. There will be small tactical nuke hits as well, where nukes were used against enemy units, airfields, and smaller naval bases or to deny areas to the enemy. There will the remains of backpack-type nukes that were used to take out division or corps HQ (or higher) units, dams, large ammunition storage facilities, and other small but high-value targets.
Yeah those are going to be hard to nail down.

Currently I have the following mapped
T2k Canon
Morrow Project Expanded

I plan to map the following
Mohoender Expanded List
DC Groups
Morrow Project Canon

As I have said before I am willing to map any list someone gives me and my mapping software can support as many options as I am exposed to. Realistically this is currently limited to about 25 options from a restriction on display size, but I can code around that if necessary.

Last edited by kato13; 06-28-2009 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 07-14-2009, 02:19 PM
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Target list from Nordic sourcebook.

Norway

Oslo 1 Mt Political and industrial center.
Tromso 100 kt Naval base. Town destroyed.
Drammen 100 kt ground burst Petroleum industry. Town destroyed
Harstad 100 kt naval base. Town destroyd.
Bergen 100 kt naval base and harbour.
Stavanger 100 kt petroleum industry.
Horten 100 kt naval base.

Northern Norway badly damaged from tactical nukes and conventional warfare.

Sweden

Karlskoga 2 X 50 kt Defense industry. Town destroyed.
Nynäshamn 20 kt Petroleum industry
Malmö 20 kt Petroleum industry and harbour.
Lingköping 50 kt Aircraft industry. Town destroyed.
Göteborg 50 kt. Missile didnt hit targeted oil refinery. Minimal civilian casualties.

Stockholm City Badly damaged by Great fire of Stockholm in 1997. Reconstruction have been difficult because area is near frontline. (Swedish civil war.)

Finland

Helsinki 10 kt. Santahamina military base and petroleum industry area. Second cruise missile heading to downtown was shot down by airforce. In 2001 Helsinki area (including Vantaa and Espoo) is not under government control.
Upinniemi naval base 10 kt.
Naantali 50 kt Oil refinery and Pansio naval base. Firestorm destroyed large parts of Turku and Naantali.
Porvoo 10 kt Oil refinery. Town badly damaged in firestorm.

Iceland

Keflavik 100 kt airbase.

Denmark

Copenhagen destroyed by conventional bombing.
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Old 07-14-2009, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trooper
Target list from Nordic sourcebook.

Norway

Oslo 1 Mt Political and industrial center.
Tromso 100 kt Naval base. Town destroyed.
Drammen 100 kt ground burst Petroleum industry. Town destroyed
Harstad 100 kt naval base. Town destroyd.
Bergen 100 kt naval base and harbour.
Stavanger 100 kt petroleum industry.
Horten 100 kt naval base.

Northern Norway badly damaged from tactical nukes and conventional warfare.

Sweden

Karlskoga 2 X 50 kt Defense industry. Town destroyed.
Nynäshamn 20 kt Petroleum industry
Malmö 20 kt Petroleum industry and harbour.
Lingköping 50 kt Aircraft industry. Town destroyed.
Göteborg 50 kt. Missile didnt hit targeted oil refinery. Minimal civilian casualties.

Stockholm City Badly damaged by Great fire of Stockholm in 1997. Reconstruction have been difficult because area is near frontline. (Swedish civil war.)

Finland

Helsinki 10 kt. Santahamina military base and petroleum industry area. Second cruise missile heading to downtown was shot down by airforce. In 2001 Helsinki area (including Vantaa and Espoo) is not under government control.
Upinniemi naval base 10 kt.
Naantali 50 kt Oil refinery and Pansio naval base. Firestorm destroyed large parts of Turku and Naantali.
Porvoo 10 kt Oil refinery. Town badly damaged in firestorm.

Iceland

Keflavik 100 kt airbase.

Denmark

Copenhagen destroyed by conventional bombing.
Nice. Thanks.
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Old 07-14-2009, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trooper
Target list from Nordic sourcebook.
I do appreciate the info -- but where did you get the Nordic Sourcebook, and has it been translated into English by anyone yet?
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Old 07-15-2009, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b
I do appreciate the info -- but where did you get the Nordic Sourcebook, and has it been translated into English by anyone yet?
Sob! I think no . I already asked trooper to translate it but he doesn't seem to be that motivated.
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Old 07-15-2009, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoender
Sob! I think no . I already asked trooper to translate it but he doesn't seem to be that motivated.
"Copyright gives the author of an original work exclusive right for a certain time period in relation to that work, including its publication, distribution and adaptation, after which time the work is said to enter the public domain. Copyright applies to any expressible form of an idea or information that is substantive and discrete and fixed in a medium. Some jurisdictions also recognize "moral rights" of the creator of a work, such as the right to be credited for the work. Copyright is described under the umbrella term intellectual property along with patents and trademarks."

If you are really intrested to get that sourcebook in english you should send email to FFE or you can send email to Mr Janne Kemppi who wrote that book. Kemppi is still active in finish scifi, RPG and manga scenes.
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Old 07-15-2009, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trooper
"Copyright gives the author of an original work exclusive right for a certain time period in relation to that work, including its publication, distribution and adaptation, after which time the work is said to enter the public domain. Copyright applies to any expressible form of an idea or information that is substantive and discrete and fixed in a medium. Some jurisdictions also recognize "moral rights" of the creator of a work, such as the right to be credited for the work. Copyright is described under the umbrella term intellectual property along with patents and trademarks."

If you are really intrested to get that sourcebook in english you should send email to FFE or you can send email to Mr Janne Kemppi who wrote that book. Kemppi is still active in finish scifi, RPG and manga scenes.
which language is it written in ?
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Old 07-15-2009, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoender
Sob! I think no . I already asked trooper to translate it but he doesn't seem to be that motivated.
Could someone translate it into Engrish then?
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Old 07-15-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b
Could someone translate it into Engrish then?
I had a feeling it was Finnish. Wait, we have a Finn or two registered here don't we?
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Old 02-16-2010, 05:58 PM
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Necroing this thread:

The Nordic sourcebook is actually in conflict with the finnish translation of the 2.2 main rulebook, which mentions that the Finnish oil refineries are untouched, and in fact no Nordic country was targeted by nuclear weapons.

Actually I think completely ignoring the Nordic sourcebook isn't a bad idea, since the quality of the text isn't too hot and it's frankly full of terribly bad ideas more suited for something like Macho Women With Guns.
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Old 02-16-2010, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemper Boyd View Post
Necroing this thread:

The Nordic sourcebook is actually in conflict with the finnish translation of the 2.2 main rulebook, which mentions that the Finnish oil refineries are untouched, and in fact no Nordic country was targeted by nuclear weapons.

Actually I think completely ignoring the Nordic sourcebook isn't a bad idea, since the quality of the text isn't too hot and it's frankly full of terribly bad ideas more suited for something like Macho Women With Guns.
No nukes hitting Nordic countries seems odd to me. I would expect at an absolute minimum Norwegian refineries would be hit. Unless they were already devastated fully by conventional weapons.
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Old 02-16-2010, 07:17 PM
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Agreed. Refineries, power stations, mines and habour facilities all make extremely good and tempting targets. Although the refineries are fairly obvious, anywhere significant repairs could be carried out to shipping would have to be a prime target also. Norway, Denmark and Sweden are ideally located to support Nato naval strength and hinder Soviet naval efforts, not just in the Baltic and North Sea, but in the artic as well.
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:25 PM
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From Mediterranean Cruise...

Quote:
The escalating nuclear exchanges struck Italy in late 1997.
Strikes on military targets turned into strikes on industrial targets
important to the war effort. After these came attacks on
economic targets of military importance. Italy had no oil deposits
of significance, but the Alps teem with hydroelectric power
generating plants, and these were deemed of sufficient military
importance to warrant destruction (several high-altitude bursts
did the job by electromagnetic pulse). Italy’s industrial north was
devastated, and the flood of refugees soon caused the civilian
government to collapse. A number of replacement governments
rose, lasted for a few months, and then fell.
Quote:
Greece received its share of thermonuclear bombs in late
1997, and the government soon collapsed under the strain. A
military revolt. put a junta of generals in charge, who annexed
Macedonia but soon fell to fighting among themselves
Quote:
The strike on Ankara destroyed the government, and attacks
on the ports and naval facilities on the Aegean and the Black
Sea crippled the Turkish military. The bomb intended for Istanbul
landed in the Sea of Marmara instead. The waves from the
blast inflicted serious damage on the port facilities in the city,
but left its buildings mostly intact.
Quote:
With the strategic exchanges of late 1997, the Ploesti oil fields
of Romania were the subject of some nuclear strikes, but for
reasons not completely understood, the refineries and oil production
facilities were not completely destroyed and were beginning
to become operational again by mid-2000.
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:29 PM
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Indeed, the Nordic sourcebook and the Finnish Twilight 2000 sourcebook do contradict each other with regards to the state of the Nordic countries. The Finnish sourcebook has this to say about Scandinavia:

Quote:
Although no Scandinavian country suffered from strategic nuclear attacks, they suffered significantly in the 1997-98 Lapland war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact. The cessation of world trade has made life ever harder. Most of Scandinavia's cities are independent or isolated, although the southern areas are mostly organized. In the northern areas which suffered from the Lapland war there are military cantonments, destroyed or anarchy -riven territory. (Although Scandinavia does have the only intact oil refineries in Europe besides Ploesti, such as the Neste refinery in Porvoo, they are so far away from crude oil production areas as to be useless. -editor.)
I think one of the reasons for this is the different time periods. The Nordic sourcebook was published in 1990 I believe, and it therefore has the v. 1.0 setting, where the USSR is the villain. The Finnish sourcebook is from 1993 as you know, and it provides its own interpretation of v. 2.2, such as Russia instead of the USSR being at war with NATO.

Personally, I agree with the others that the locations as mentioned in the Nordic sourcebook would have been targeted by the Russians.

When I've finished with posting the timeline of the Finnish sourcebook, I'll proceed to posting the state of the world as described in the Finnish sourcebook, as well as information about the state of the Nordic countries as described in the Nordic sourcebook.
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
strategic nuclear attacks
That leaves a whole lot of tactical and operational nuke wiggle room.

The V1 and V2 differences make a lot of sense as well.
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Old 02-16-2010, 09:02 PM
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I believe that virtually no strategic missiles were fired at any target besides those during November 1997 (and again in early 98).
Any nuke fired outside these two periods is almost certainly tactical in nature.

This is not to say every nuke during these periods could be termed strategic though. The ground war continued to rage and as had been the case for several months, tactical nukes were still being used.

It is possible that tactical nukes could have been used throughout the war, from the first shot in China right up to summer 2000. They are unlikely to have been all that common in the latter stages though.
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Old 02-17-2010, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Farson View Post
Personally, I agree with the others that the locations as mentioned in the Nordic sourcebook would have been targeted by the Russians.
I would disagree, because for the reason mentioned in the 2.2, the finnish petrochemical industry would be mostly useless and of no strategic importance. In a strategic exchange the refineries could be plastered with nuclear weapons, but it's more unlikely to happen in the context of the limited exchange that took place in the 2.2 timeline.

The Nordic countries had ceased to have any strategic importance whatsoever after the NATO-Russia northern front stalled and the naval conflict was mostly over with.
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:57 AM
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No strategic importance? You are joking right?

Even without oil coming from Norway's north sea oil rigs, an undamaged refinery is of vital importance. It only takes one shipment of oil from somewhere else and suddenly "boom" you've got yourself a mobile division or two.

Note that it wouldn't require an ICBM to do the job either. A sub or even Fast Attack Craft should be able to deliver the package.
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:06 AM
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I have to agree. Given some of the other industrial infrastructure that was nuked and seemed to be of lesser strategic value, I'd assume pretty much all of Scandinavia's petrochemical processing infrastructure would have been targeted either by conventional or nuclear strikes.
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