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Old 12-10-2009, 12:32 PM
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Default Help needed on something...

Hi everyone, I need a little help. I've been wanting to write a story that is based upon concepts from the 1st Edition of T2k, with DC Working group (especially Webstral's 'Black Winter' explaination for how the Soviets where able to hold onto their hegmony in Eastern Europe with some of my own ideas tossed in to make the WP economically more stable)...

The working name of the story is 'Twilight of Innocence' and deals with a male soldier and female embedded journalist trapped in the middle of Poland after the last major offenses of the war failed and left both sides knocked out of the fight (basicly 'Death of a Division' and 'Escape for Kalisz' type of thing)...

I'm posting the first part of the story that is to set the stage, and I'm asking for help in making it sound better. I don't know if i should explain more of what the world is like in the opening description, or just add more descriptions during the the story. I had thought of 'flashbacks' every now and again showing how the two main characters dealt with certain things occuring during the war...

Any constructive advice is greatly appreacated.


'Twilight of Innocence, Prologue'

When did the world die? This is a question many people have asked over the past three years since the first nuclear exchange that changed very shape of the affairs of the world. The year is 2009, and the world has been locked in a horrible world wide war that many would like to say got it start back in 2000 when the USSR and PRC had gotten into a border dispute in Central Asia. But others with much better memories say that it had actually started back in 1989. Back when it really looked as if the Cold War was about to end with the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe…

But that was not meant to be. A coup in the middle of 1989 saw the Gorbachev regime brought down, and the end of the Sinatra Doctrine when the Red Army units garrisoning East Germany and the rest of Eastern Europe put down pro-democratic protesters and reformers. During that horrible winter of 1989 the West watched in horror as the Soviet Union reinforced its hegemony with a brutal iron fist that would inspire the Peoples Republic of China to follow its example in 1993 to put down nearly three hundred pro-democracy demonstrators at Tiananmen Square. In comparison, the world would say that the thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) who went missing during that 'Black Winter' that saw the gentle thaw of the Cold War turn once more into a new Ice Age.

Thanks to the 'Black Winter', the first half of the 1990s had become the tensest time during the history of the Cold War. Even tenser than the period that necessitated the Berlin Airlift, a feat that NATO had to repeat throughout the three months of what historians and the media had called the 'Black Winter'.

In August of 1990 Saddam Hussein's Republic of Iraq invaded the Emirate of Kuwait without the approval of the Soviet Union, whom did nothing to stop the US-led coalition of forces to liberate the small oil-producing Persian Gulf country. In fact the Soviets had assisted the Coalition Forces, providing permission for the use of Soviet and Eastern Bloc airspace for the Coalition forces to launch their attacks on Iraqi emplacements. The presence of Soviet Obeservers on both sides of the war allowed them to learn many lessions that they would later use to modernize their armed forces throughout the 1990s.

The election of Bill Clinton as President of the United States in 1992 saw the continuation of the 'Peace through Strength' policy that had originally been started by President Ronald Reagan in the 1980s. But President Clinton also pursued a policy of economic engagement with the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact. Trade with the Eastern Bloc allowed limited capitalist economic and cultural reforms that greatly benefited the communist countries behind the Iron Curtain.

During the early-1990s saw the creation of a grassroots political organization in the United States based upon progressive populist beliefs that would become known as the Union for a Progressive New America sponsored by an extremely wealthy international financier. Throughout the 1990s and the first years of the early 21st Century the Union for a Progressive New America rapidly grew in power and scope allowing the new political party to win many local and state elections by 2004, including the election of several prominent members to the United States House of Representatives.

NATO found itself spilt over how to deal with the Black Winter, something that had long lasting effects and saw the birth of the Mediterranean Alliance in 1992 during the aftermath of Operation Desert Storm by the French Republic, Italian Republic and Hellenic Republic. These three nations would be joined by Portuguese Republic in 1994, Peoples Democratic Republic of Algeria and the Tunisian Republic in 1995, the Kingdom of Spain in 1998 and finally the Peoples Socialist Republic of Albania in 1999.

While initially allied with NATO, the Alliance would slowly start to develop a much more distinct foreign policy. Especially with their policy with the continent of Africa. The African states and the order they joined the Mediterranean Alliance; the Republic of Chad in 1994, the Equatorial Guinea in 1994, the Central African Republic in 1994, the Republic of the Congo in 1995, the Kingdom of Morocco in 1996, the Somali Republic in 1997, the Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia in 1998, and the Great Socialist Peoples Libyan Arab Jamahiriya in 2000. It was the rapid growth of the Mediterranean Alliance in Africa prompted the United States to create the African Unified Combatant Command.

By the end of the 1990s, luxury goods such as McDonalds, Starbucks, Pepsi, Levis and even Victoria's Secret could be found in stores throughout the Eastern Bloc. But the prosperity of the 1990s led to decadence in the East as well as the West. A brewing border dispute between the USSR and PRC spurred on by leaders dissatisfied with the changes and reforms exploded into the Sino-Soviet Border War in August of 2000. The Sino-Soviet War would end up drawing the rest of Warsaw Pact when the fighting turned against the Soviet Union mid-2001. By early 2002 the Sino-Soviet War had become a meat grinder for the Pact forces (especially the units of the NVA der DDR) whom where finding themselves being used as cannon fodder.

The DDR and other Warsaw Pact countries started to turn against their Soviet masters, and covertly opened negotiations with their counterparts inside NATO. Seeking assistance in breaking away from being controlled by central planners in Moscow.

In 2003 the Soviets demanded another round of reinforcements from their Warsaw Pact allies, who balked at the thought of even sending more troops into the Sino-Soviet War fronts in Central Asia and the Far East.

On 9 September 2003, three nearly bloodless coups where carried out by high ranking military and political leaders seeking to allow their people a chance once more to choose their own destiny. While they had been able to overthrow the Soviet sponsored governments that controlled the German Democratic Republic and Hungarian Peoples Republic, the coup in the Polish Peoples Republic failed thanks to the Soviet KGB intercepting the majority of conspirators allowing the majority of Poland to remain in the hands of the Polish central communist government and Soviet Occupation forces plunging the country into chaos as local uprisings go off without central authorities while government opposition maintained a cohesive control that nearly stomped out the rebellion.

If not for the successful uprising in the DDR with the aid of the Federal Republic of Germany (and having the support of nearly every level of the East German government) pushing the occupying Soviet Forces in Germany out of the nation, the Polish uprising would have been a total failure.

Dispite the fact that popular support for the war in the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic, they had a greater fear of the possible reunification of the two German states. Thus renewing their continued allegiance to the Warsaw Pact, and prompting them to launch a major offensive to support the beleaguered Soviet forces in East Germany. It was the entrance of Czechoslovak forces into East Germany that prompted both the US and British forces garrisoned in West Germany to launch their own counter-assault against the Czechoslovak and 'loyalist' Polish forces that where currently engaged in combat there.

The Peoples Republic of Bulgaria and the Socialist Republic of Romania mobilized to reinforce the Soviets and Czechoslovak forces fighting against NATO and the turncoat East German and Polish forces in the German Democratic Republic and the Polish Peoples Republic much to the dismay of their neighbors.

After the mobilization of their Balkan neighbors to enter into the conflict in Eastern Europe prompted the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia joined NATO alliance. Which along with skirmishes between Bulgarian and Turkish forces would prompt the Mediterranean Alliance to at first to enter a state of armed neutrality that would become a state of war when they refused to allow NATO to reinforce the Republic of Turkey in the early part of 2004 after the Soviets started to appear as if they where going to prepare to launch an all out offensive into Southwest Asia in an effort to cut NATO's access to Middle East Oil Fields.

Thanks to this, the war in Europe and Central Asia had spread to the Middle East and Africa prompting the United States Congress to authorize the reactivation of the Draft and the creation of the wartime Army of the United States to defend the country. All throughout the later years of the 1990s political pressure had created the Evaluation of Female Combat Personnel Program to test the possibility of American women in combat or combat support positions that had proven successful. Thus when the Congress passed the new Draft legislation in 2004 both men and women between the ages of 18 to 35 had found that they were eligible for the draft equally. This gave a grassroots support for both protestors and political pundits whom where associated with the 'Union for a Progressive New America' to speak out, support and organize groups whose only reason to exist was to resist both the war and the draft.

By mid-2006 the first uses of nuclear weapons was reported during the Sino-Soviet conflict in Central Asia and quickly followed when the Republic of India and the Islamic Republic of Pakistan went nuclear when the two states decided to finally end the nearly-half century state of war that had existed between them that left both states desolate wastelands that would soon be mirrored in other parts of the world. The use of nuclear weapons in the Western Hemisphere was much more limited, with the unspoken agreement between the three superpowers limited themselves to the use of only tactical nuclear warheads on the battlefields.

In mid-2007 the first and only use of strategic nuclear weapons occurred on the early morning of Wednesday 4 July 2007 with the launch of a surgical strike by the Soviet Union in an attempt to knock the United States out of the War. The surviving media would call this surprise nuclear attack that hit Washington DC and select military targets in the Continental United States as the 'Independence Day Massacre.'

Throughout 2008 the war continued in sporadic offenses and counter-offenses that occurred between attempts by the participants in an effort to regain internal control over their homelands. Back in the United States the Union for a Progressive New America had launched an attempt to overthrow the surviving federal and state governments using the distraction of the nuclear exchanges of the 'Independence Day Massacre' as cover for their attempt. Many elements of the surviving media conglomerates at first ignored the activities of the 'Progressive New America' but would soon find themselves even focus of the organizations attempts to assert complete and total control over every aspect of the day-to-day lives of the areas under their control.

The Federal Government attempted to keep the fighting between it and the 'Union for a Progressive New America' from getting to much coverage fearing that it would weaken its ability to maintain control over those areas still within its sphere of control and influence. But after reports of the atrocities that where being carried out in the seat of the Union's power (Seattle, WA), the Federal Government had to go public with the covert war that had started in the aftermath of the 'Independence Day Massacre'.

By mid-2009 the war had finally ground to a halt on all fronts as all of the participants where just too over extended, and incapable of even keeping their own homelands secure from domestic outlaw elements. Thus when the final offensive of the war fizzled, and many found themselves cut off and stranded as strangers in strange lands having to find their own way home.

And this… This is the story of two such people.

One is a soldier, and the other a field correspondent of one of the last operating international news agencies.
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:08 PM
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I have to say that I like what I read. Congratulation. You have been moving away from the original setting and i appreciate.

Only two things disturb me.

First, you have Portugal to join the Mediterranean Union and I don't see any reason for that. In the mid-1990's portugal was maintaining tight relations with France and it continues today but I'm not convinced that the Portuguese would turn their back on Britain, US and NATO. If they do, why? Portugal is very much an Atlantic country, it has no interest and never expressed any interest in the Mediterranean. They have a state of mine resembling that of the UK and most of their economical ties are with Brazil. Africa could be an interest but none of its former colonies seem to join the Union.

Something else. What about the EU. Did it disolve, what it's position, how does the Mediterranean Union fits into this?
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohoender View Post
I have to say that I like what I read. Congratulation. You have been moving away from the original setting and i appreciate.

Only two things disturb me.

First, you have Portugal to join the Mediterranean Union and I don't see any reason for that. In the mid-1990's portugal was maintaining tight relations with France and it continues today but I'm not convinced that the Portuguese would turn their back on Britain, US and NATO. If they do, why? Portugal is very much an Atlantic country, it has no interest and never expressed any interest in the Mediterranean. They have a state of mine resembling that of the UK and most of their economical ties are with Brazil. Africa could be an interest but none of its former colonies seem to join the Union.

Something else. What about the EU. Did it disolve, what it's position, how does the Mediterranean Union fits into this?
My idea is that because of the 'Black Winter' and the break with NATO, the EU became something like the UN... A neutral place to 'clear the air' and hold negotiations & talks... but the current EU of our world doesn't happen...

Portugal joining the Med Alliance came about in my minds eye due to political ties with France, Africa and their interests in South America. The Med Alliance has agreements with the South American 'movement to socialism alliance' that was created by Hugo Chavez... Thus creating another front for the war...

In this setting, the entire world is touched by the war. And the Superpowers are overextended by putting combat assets into every theather.

I have been contemplated the formation of alliances based upon the Baghdad Pact (Iraq, Iran and other middle eastern states opposed to US and Isreali interests), Bejing Pact (PRC and it's allies), and Havana Pact (Chavez's Movement to Socialism aligned states). Basicly trying to duplicate the things that brought about the start of WW1... alliances and treaties being what caused all the different conflicts.

During the 1990s, i had the develpment of many of the current military hardware coming into being thanks to the continuation of the Cold War and way tensions in the aftermath of the 'Black Winter' pushed the advanced development of military hardware.

I have also introduced a few other bits of flavor. if anyone would like me to, i can post those bits of color and flavor...



Bolivarian Alliance for the People of Our America (Alternativa Bolivariana para los Pueblos de Nuestra América or ALBA - which also means 'dawn' in Spanish)
Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela (República Bolivariana de Venezuela) President Hugo Rafael Chávez Fr*as
Republic of Cuba (República de Cuba) President Raúl Modesto Castro Ruz
Republic of Nicaragua (República de Nicaragua) President Daniel Ortega
Plurinational State of Bolivia (Estado Plurinacional de Bolivia) President Eva Morales
Republic of Honduras (República de Honduras) President Manuel Zelaya
Commonwealth of Dominica President Nicholas Liverpool
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Prime Minister Ralph Gonsalves
Republic of Ecuador (República del Ecuador) President Rafael Correa
Antigua and Barbuda Prime Minister Winston Baldwin Spencer
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Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.

Last edited by natehale1971; 12-10-2009 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:49 PM
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I'm interested out of curiosity. Although I'm taking a very different path (I have a union between China and Russia), I took some options that are very similar: a Latin American Socialist Union (Chavez), a Middle Eastern Union (centered on Turkey and Iran moran than Iran/Iraq) and a limited extension of the EU.
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Old 12-11-2009, 05:30 AM
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I'm interested out of curiosity. Although I'm taking a very different path (I have a union between China and Russia), I took some options that are very similar: a Latin American Socialist Union (Chavez), a Middle Eastern Union (centered on Turkey and Iran moran than Iran/Iraq) and a limited extension of the EU.

I'd like to hear more about how you got the Turkey/Iran alliance to work.. The Baghdad Pact was a military defense kind of thing to oppose outsiders interfereing in the affairs of the Gulf States in the aftermath of Operation Desert Shield & Desert Storm. The 'big three' of the Pact states would be Syria, Iraq, and Iran. I'm still working on the other states who'd join the pact, being brought in during an attempt to politicize upon the desire to reestablish the Islamic capitate (sp).

I went with the break-up of the EU so that the fighting in Europe would actually happen in a more 'multi-front' manner. Especially with the three-way fights that really cause a much more chaotic and brutal fighting. Especially the Balkans and Central Europe where you actually have forces of all three alliances (Med-NATO-WP) fighting each other. I have another alliance, but it's more of an Armed Neutrality camp... The Swedish and Finnish alliance (the name will be either the Scandinavian or Nordic Bloc, or even Baltic Bloc since post war Estonia, Latvia, Norway, and Denmark & Greenland will join it).

The Alliance throughout the Caribbean, Latin America & South America based upon Chavez desire to create a political bloc to stand in opposition to 'American Imperialism' wouldn't get funding from the USSR & the Warsaw Pact, but would get to provide ecconomic support when they are buying large quanities of modern weapons and equipment from the USSR/WP states (and a major part of why their economies made recoveries in this alternate universe). I am trying to get some info on Chavez and his first failed coup attempt, and what would have happened if he'd been successful back then. Because if that could have been the start of the creation of the alliance, it would give them the time to build up and become a viable threat that would cause the US to expend significant combat forces to the region.

I am still working on how the Med Alliance expansion in Africa prompted the formation of the US Africa Command, and all of the things that had prompted Protugal to joining the Med Alliance.

I have been working on what happened in South Africa as well. I want to get rid of Apartheid, but I wanted to do it in a way that wouldn't have caused the chaos that the real world has seen. I have thoughts on this, but not sure how best to go about it... My original concept was that the homelands policy would have continued with alot of changes, and the creation of a tricamoral legislative body (basicly the creation of a 'tribal council' where each of the different ethnic groups would be given representative seats, and would be instrumental in the elections of national leaders, similar to the US Electorial College). Frederik Willem de Klerk & Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela where the leaders of South Africa for the 1990s and together brought the country through the end of apartheid. I had thought of the creation of several different states that would be alligned together in a defensive pact. I've also went with the following political offices in South Africa: President of South Africa (head of state), Prime Minister (head of government), and at least three Deputy Prime Ministers (there might be more, having them being the elected leaders of each of the south african states).

Any help on coming up with the post-apartheid South Africa I'd really love it.


Here is some of the 'color' and 'flavor' changes... If you've got some ideas to add, i'm more than willing to hear them!

Especially help on coming up with political leaders... Especially with who becomes president after 2008. I wanted to stick with actual real world leaders being elected up until the start of the war... I had planned that the 'Independence Day Massacare' failed at taking out the Federal Government, it damaged it severely and actually caused even the most ardent opposition party members to throw their support behind the successful resolution of the war. Thus why the fighting kept going instead of a compete armistance being declared.

Yes, peacetalks DID open up (using the prepreation for the Olympics to host the peacetalks) and did stop the use of any further nuclear weapons... And after it became evident that no one had the ability to continue fighting the war in Europe and Central Asia, the negotatiors were able to get everyone to return to their respective corners and get the nations of Eastern Europe their independence from outside influences (aggreed upon because the USSR was currently engaged in a civil war between pro-democratic and pro-communist forces).

The Soviet Civil War basicly comes down between the pro-democratic forces that had become alligned with someone with a tentitive claim to regain the Romanov Dynasty and the former Soviet Premier who had basicly 'saved' the USSR (he had been instrumental in the 'Black Winter', but at his core was a Patriot more than a communist), and the hardline communists behind the 'new' Preimer who had been the Defense Minister who had actually planned the coup that overthrew Gorbachev regime, and had orchestrated the bloody 'black winter' and its aftermath. Yes... I've gone with referring to the two factions as the White Army (pro-democracy) and Red Army (pro-communists).

I've decided that when the Soviet Civil War ends, the pro-democracy forces win, renaming the USSR as the Union of Sovereign Northern Republics (whose initials will actually still be CCCP), and it will become a constitional monarchy, with the best aspects of the former system kept.

The 1990s also saw the birth of the modern Private Military Contractors like we have today. I am just trying to come up with names for the major PMC companies, I don't really want to use real company names (like Blackwater USA) because unlike Political Leaders and Political Parties, i am really worried that they could actually have the power to SUE...


--- Soviet / Russian Leaders ----

Konstantin Dmitrievich Danilov, fromer Soviet Officer and KGB official. Despite his outward appearance as being a hardline communist, he is more a Russian / Soviet Patriot who sought to preserve the power, influence and capabilities of the USSR instead of seeing it and its hegmony collasping.
Danilovism becomes what observers call the changes that he introduced to the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe that has allowed small business and limited capitalism that our world has seen sucessfully done in the PRC.
Danilovians are those who have found themselves approving of all the chagnes of the past decade that saved the soviet union, and they will become the core of the White Army after Tukhachevsky launches a coup to get rid of the 'too popular' Danilov because he and other hardline communists felt that to many changes where happening and that decadence of the west had corrupted the USSR.

Nikolai Ivanovich Tukhachevsky, USSR Defense Minister who is an extremely diehard communist and was the biggest orchistrator to the overthrow of Gorbachev and the power behind the brutal 'Black Winter' (the biggest reason why he didn't become the new preimere of the USSR was that he wouldn't have been able to be a public face that the international community would have accepted). Tukhachevsky is totally devoted to the ideals of the communist society and political power of the communist party.

Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin is a major supporter of Danilov and the reforms he has brought about, and had been assigned as the 'official' assistant to the Romanov heir (Nicholas Romanovich Romanov or one of his daughters or grandchildren) who had been on a well publicied good-will tour of the Soviet Union, brining with them private aid money to establish charity based orphanages and medical clinics that was established to help the people being affected by the Sino-Soviet war.


---- Presidents of the United States ----

George H.W. Bush, 41s President of the United States (1989-1992)
William J. 'Bill' Clinton, 42d President of the United States (1992-2000)
George W. 'Dubya' Bush, 43d President of the United States (2000-????)
<name>, 44th President of the United States (????-????)

I am trying to come up with the elections that will have happened in 2008, and can't decide if passage of legislation that would allow for wartime emergency suspension of the 22nd Amendment (limiting the president to only two four-year terms) would be legal or not. Especially with the fact that so much of the country is in chaos thanks to the fact that there are areas under the control of the 'Progressive New America' and areas outside of the control of the Federal Government.


----- US Armed Forces Uniform Changes ----

During the Clinton Administration (1992-2000), the Pentagon introduced a series of uniform changes to increase morale and promote a higher sense of espirt de corps among the men and women serving their country.

The US Armed Forces adopt digital camouflage (woodland, desert, urban, naval) uniforms starting in 1994. The introduction of these new uniforms sees stockpiles of BDU uniforms being issued to National Guard units until the universal adoption of the new uniforms by 2004. But once the war started, this was greatly accelerated, and stockpiles of BDU uniforms would be State Defense Forces and State Militia units. [Real World Example: the replacement combat utility uniforms have the same style and look like the ACU, but using MARPAT digital camouflage patterns except for the US Navy whom also use the real world Naval Digital Camouflage pattern.]

1994 also saw the introduction of a new US Army Khaki Service Uniform to replace the service dress greens that shared many design elements of the USMC Sage Green uniforms that harkens back to the service uniforms worn during the Second World War and Korea. [Editorial note: I had thought of the piping on the trousers being in the branch colors instead of arm color, but felt that should be kept only for the US Army Dress Blue uniform.]

Also in 1994 the US Navy reintroduced the navy blue flattop sailor's cap to replace the white dixie cup. The US Navy introduced new khaki service dress uniforms for Senior Non-Commissioned Officers, Warrant Officers and Commissioned Officers that shared many elements with the US Navy aviation green service uniforms. The enlisted dress white uniforms added cuffs and blue piping to the white jumpers, and white flattop sailor's cap.


US Army Khaki Service Uniform: A khaki combination cap w/brown leather visor, a belted khaki jacket, a tan dress shirt, a dark tan tie, a pair of khaki trousers w/piping (brown: combat arms, dark brown: combat support, black: combat service support), a pair of brown dress socks, a pair of brown leather dress shoes (or a pair of brown combat boots worn by personnel in select combat units).

ACU (Army Combat Utilities) uniform: a forage cap or beret, a button-up tunic, a pull-over combat shirt, a pair of combat trousers, a pair of cushion-soled socks, a pair of tan combat boots.

ABU (Airman Battle Utilities) uniform: a forage cap or beret, a button-up tunic, a pull-over combat shirt, a pair of combat trousers, a pair of cushion-soled socks, a pair of black combat boots.

NCU (Navy Combat Utilities) uniform: a five-point cap or a beret, a button-up tunic, a pull-over combat shirt, a pair of combat trousers, a pair of cushion-soled socks, a pair of black combat boots.

MCU (Marine Combat Utilities) uniform: a five-point cap, a button-up tunic, a pull-over combat shirt, a pair of combat trousers, a pair of cushion-soled socks, a pair of brown combat boots.

US Army beret colors: Brown beret (US Army Combat Arms), Dark brown beret (US Army Combat Support Arms), Black beret (US Army Combat Service Support), Tan beret (US Army Rangers),
Maroon beret (US Army Airborne), Dark green beret (US Army Special Forces)

US Air Force beret colors: Burgundy red beret (US Air Force Pararescue), Scarlet red beret (US Air Force Combat Controller), Blue black beret (US Air Force Tactical Air Command & Control Specialist), Light gray beret (US Air Force Combat Weather), Gray beret (US Air Force SERE instructor), Dark blue beret (US Air Force Security Police)

US Navy beret colors: White beret (USN personnel), Gray beret (USN Special Warfare Combatant-craft Crewmen), Light gray beret (USN SEALS)
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Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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Old 12-11-2009, 05:44 AM
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The 1990s also saw the birth of the modern Private Military Contractors like we have today. I am just trying to come up with names for the major PMC companies, I don't really want to use real company names (like Blackwater USA) because unlike Political Leaders and Political Parties, i am really worried that they could actually have the power to SUE...
How about variations on the real company names...so instead of Blackwater use something like Blueocean? Or Xenon Security as they're now known as Xe?

Granted, that might still get you on the radar of their company attorneys...
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Old 12-11-2009, 06:06 AM
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I have been working on what happened in South Africa as well. I want to get rid of Apartheid, but I wanted to do it in a way that wouldn't have caused the chaos that the real world has seen. I have thoughts on this, but not sure how best to go about it... My original concept was that the homelands policy would have continued with alot of changes, and the creation of a tricamoral legislative body (basicly the creation of a 'tribal council' where each of the different ethnic groups would be given representative seats, and would be instrumental in the elections of national leaders, similar to the US Electorial College). Frederik Willem de Klerk & Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela where the leaders of South Africa for the 1990s and together brought the country through the end of apartheid. I had thought of the creation of several different states that would be alligned together in a defensive pact. I've also went with the following political offices in South Africa: President of South Africa (head of state), Prime Minister (head of government), and at least three Deputy Prime Ministers (there might be more, having them being the elected leaders of each of the south african states).

Any help on coming up with the post-apartheid South Africa I'd really love it.
I think the way that apartheid was abolished in the real world is probably the best model to use. Sure, the country's crime rate is pretty atrocious, and they have a number of other problems, but they managed to avoid descending into out and out civil war, which I think might have been a very real possibility under different circumstances (personally I think Mandela himself was probably the biggest single factor in the peaceful transition from white to majority rule - without him, things might have been very different).

I also think proposed tribal homelands would probably be more likely to split the country up than unite it.

Just my tuppence worth...

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Old 12-11-2009, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by natehale1971 View Post
I'd like to hear more about how you got the Turkey/Iran alliance to work.. The Baghdad Pact was a military defense kind of thing to oppose outsiders interfereing in the affairs of the Gulf States in the aftermath of Operation Desert Shield & Desert Storm. The 'big three' of the Pact states would be Syria, Iraq, and Iran. I'm still working on the other states who'd join the pact, being brought in during an attempt to politicize upon the desire to reestablish the Islamic capitate (sp).
The first important thing is that my own timeline doesn't start the war until the year 2000. But it doesn't really matter as the events that drew Turkey out of NATO and toward Iran could be transfered at an other time.

The starting point comes from January 1995. At the time it seems that the CIA managed to negociate a truce between various kurdish factions. Following this, an attempt at assassinating Saddam was to be conducted by Iraqi soldiers (using tanks) in relation to a military offensive by the Kurds (In this case, the Kurds would not have had to fight much of the Iraqi army). That action was not authorized and the ploters were arrested.

I chose to take another path and the action is, in fact, authorized. Benefiting from US backing the Kurds launch their attack and the Iraqi officers manage to kill Saddam by tank fire. Of course, as often with the CIA, things don't exactly turn as expected.

Following the assasination, Iraq enters a period of civil war where Shia are opposing the Sunni and the Kurds. The Shia put their hands on most equipements from regular Iraqi units but they lack proeficient military officers. Nevertheless, they slowly rebuild the army with help from Iran. In the middle of the civil war they establish the Islamic Republic of Iraq under the leadership of Al Sadr (the actual Al Sadr's father). The Kurds and the Sunni still benefit from US support and they are joined by most of the Republican Guard. As a result, their smaller manpower is balanced by superior skills and equipments. In the meantime, the Kurdish PKK still launches various attack on Turkey and keep seeking refuge in Kurdish held Iraq.

Finally, in 1997 running out of patience, Turkey launches a large scale offensive on the PKK which once again withdraw to Iraqi Kurdistan. Pushing further than it did before, Turkey enters Iraq on several occasions. US, refusing to support Ankara, asks for a UN resolution condemning Turkey's military action. In the meantime, Iraqi Kurds provide several stingers to the PKK and several Turkish aircrafts are destroyed. The Turkish people feel betrayed and demonstrate against the USA, attacking the US embassy. Instead of moving against its people the Turkish Army, which suffered significant casualties at the hand of the Kurds, puts the Islamic leader back to power and forces a change of the constitution. Slowly Turkey moves toward a more radical Islam and annouces that it leaves NATO. According to the treaty, all NATO bases in Turkey will have to be closed within a year.

Of course, this is not enough to bring Iran and Turkey toward each other. The point is that Turkey finds itself isolated and looking for new allies. For Ankara, turning to Moscow remains unacceptable as several wounds from the past are still to be healed. However, soon before the events that led to Turkey leaving NATO, Ankara has created the Developing-eight (D-8 for short) an economic development alliance (Turkey, Bangladesh, Egypt, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia, Nigeria and Pakistan) and turns to this for support. The new situation and the tensions with the USA push some members to resign (Egypt and Pakistan) but the others remain, one is eager to help (Iran) and several more join (Islamic Republic of Iraq, Lebanon, Syria...). At first, Iran gets mostly technological support from Turkey in return for financial support but a tighter alliance is under way and, when the Twilight War starts over Europe, the military collaboration quickly evolves into military alliance.

Basically that's it. As you see, I have developped my own Mediterranean Union but it si centered on Turkey. So many things could have go wrong between 1990-2000.
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