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Old 11-18-2022, 11:42 AM
3catcircus 3catcircus is offline
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Default US ORBAT Questions

Anyone have any info on what the *real* 5th ID looked like in 2000? The excellent Jed McClure handout lists some units that don't match the 1989 NATO ORBAT, which looks like this:

5th Infantry Division (Mechanized)
1st Brigade
1-70th Armor Battalion (M1)
3-70th Armor Battalion (M1)
1-61st Infantry Battalion (Mechanized) (M113)
2nd Brigade
3-77th Armor Battalion (M1)
2-152nd Armor Battalion (AL ARNG) (M60A3)
3-6th Infantry Battalion (Mechanized) (M113)
4-6th Infantry Battalion (Mechanized) (M113)
256th Infantry Brigade (Mechanized) (LA ARNG)
1-156th Armor Battalion (M60A3)
2-156th Infantry Battalion (Mechanized) (M113)
3-156th Infantry Battalion (Mechanized) (M113)
Troop E, 256th Cavalry Regiment
4th Brigade (Aviation)
4-12th Cavalry Regiment (19 x M60A, 32 x M113, 4 x M577, 24 Dragon, 8 x AH-1F, 12 x OH-58C, 1 x UH-1H)
1-5th Attack Helicopter Battalion (21 x AH-1F, 13 x OH-58C, 3 x UH-1H)
C Co/5th Aviation Regiment (6 x UH-1H, 6 x OH-58A, 6 x OH-58D, 3 x EH-60)
D Co/5th Aviation Regiment (15 x UH-1H)
5th Infantry Division Artillery
4-1st Field Artillery Battalion (24 x M109A3)
5-1st Field Artillery Battalion (24 x M109A3)
1-141st Field Artillery Battalion (LA ARNG) (24 x M109A2)
C Battery, 21st Field Artillery Regiment (9 x MLRS)
H Battery, 25th Field Artillery Regiment (Target Acquisition)
5th Infantry Division Support Command
7th Combat Engineer Battalion (4 x bulldozer, 8 x AVLB, 8 x CEV, 4 x M88, 12 x MAB (bridge))
1-55th Air Defense Artillery Battalion (24 x Chaparral, 24 x Vulcan SP, 60 x FIM-92 Stinger)
105th Military Intelligence Battalion (CEWI)
5th Military Police Company
45th Chemical Company

I've also found some info that shows that in 1992, at Ft Polk, there were some differences, including some units that were reflagged or shuffled between brigades.

For new TW:2K or TW:2013 games, I'd just as soon use the 1989 NATO and PACT ORBATs as the reference. Does anyone have any recommendations on something else - or can point me to a set of ORBATs from the 1999 or 2000?
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  #2  
Old 11-18-2022, 03:08 PM
Homer Homer is offline
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Default 5th ID Orbat

5th ID deactivated in 1992 and was reflagged as 2nd AD which moved back to Fort Hood (less some division base and DISCOM units) before reflagging as 4th ID. 256th Brigade terminated its round out relationship with 5ID/2AD and became an ARNG enhanced separate brigade in 1996 (slight changes to kit/manning and more frequent CTC rotations and gunneries). After 1992/93, the only tanks, brads, or other heavy unit equipment to be found on Fort Polk was stored in the 256th Brigade MATES site on North Fort Polk.

The Fort Lewis based 199th Infantry Brigade (itself the former 3d BDE 9th ID, less the FAVs, heavy brigades, and most of the division base) reflagged as 2nd ACR(Light) and moved to Fort Polk in 1992/93. 2CAV occupied a portion of the former 5th ID footprint on South Fort Polk as well as most of Polk Army Airfield. The remainder of South Fort was divided between the Warrior Brigade (a collection of former division base and DISCOM units, a combat support hospital, and a FORSCOM general support engineer battalion (46th ENG)) and the post’s flagship organization; the Joint Readiness Training Center (JRTC). JRTC relocated from Fort Chaffee in 1993, occupying significant portions of the North and South portions of Fort Polk. JRTC also brought its OPFOR unit, 1-509 PIR (Geronimo) who relocated from Little Rock AFB in 1993.

*If things had continued as they were during the Cold War, it’s likely the division would have continued to develop as an Army of Excellence (AOE) division with incremental equipment upgrades (133 to BFV, etc) and three major structural changes. First, the engineer complement would have increased from 1 to 3 battalions under an engineer brigade headquarters. Second, the aviation brigade would have consolidated the C/5 and D/5 AVN into a General Support Aviation Battalion (GSAB) along with an additional lift company; in addition, a second attack aviation battalion would be added (typically on AH64 fielding). Finally, C/21 and H/25 FA would consolidate with an additional MLRS battery under and MLRS battalion headquarters. All these changes were drawn up or underway prior to the drawdowns of the early 90s. Even in the Reagan years, funding and manufacturing delays prevented quick implementation of all changes; one obstacle was a backlog in the manufacture of unit colors and standards at the single authorized heraldry plant in Philadelphia (I guess that’ll be another victim of TDM)!

Hope this helps.

Last edited by Homer; 11-18-2022 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 11-18-2022, 07:33 PM
3catcircus 3catcircus is offline
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Thanks. All good info, but I'm searching for an actual final ORBAT as of 1992 or thereabouts just before they reflagged.

Last edited by 3catcircus; 11-18-2022 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 11-18-2022, 08:47 PM
Homer Homer is offline
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Default Red Devil orbat 95

1st BDE-
5-6 IN was 1-61
3-67 AR was 1-40
4-35 AR was 3-77

2d BDE-
4-6 IN stays the same was 3-10 in Death of a Division
3-6 IN stays the same was 3-11 in Death of a Division.
3-70 AR stays the same

256 BDE is unchanged

3-1 CAV was 4-12 CAV

DIVARTY had 3-19 and 2-21 FA (3x8 155mm M109A3) vice 4-1 and 5-1 FA; all else unchanged

3-3 ADA was 1-55 ADA

Aviation assets were built around 5th aviation regiment. 1-5 GSAB, 2-5 ATTK, would have added 3-5 ATTK if things continued.

M1 began arriving in 1988, M2/M3 in 1990, HMMWV in 1988, and UH-60 in 1990. 5ID never fielded AH64.

Last edited by Homer; 11-19-2022 at 03:06 AM.
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Old 11-19-2022, 10:57 AM
3catcircus 3catcircus is offline
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Thanks!
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Old 11-19-2022, 01:06 PM
Louied Louied is offline
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Equipment Readiness of 5ID (M) on March 1990
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Equipment Readiness of 5ID (M) on March 1990.pdf (3.50 MB, 15 views)
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Old 11-19-2022, 02:12 PM
shrike6 shrike6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer View Post
2d BDE-
4-6 IN stays the same was 3-10 in Death of a Division
3-6 IN stays the same was 3-11 in Death of a Division.
3-70 AR stays the same
2nd Bde was stil rounded out by the 2-152nd Armor (AL NG). It continued to roundout the bde after it was reflagged to 2/2AD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer View Post
Aviation assets were built around 5th aviation regiment. 1-5 GSAB, 2-5 ATTK, would have added 3-5 ATTK if things continued.
1-5th Attack
3-5th GSAB

Source

https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...279847I001.pdf
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...279846I001.pdf
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  #8  
Old 11-19-2022, 06:26 PM
Homer Homer is offline
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Wow- great finds. The historical holding area doesn’t show ah64s in their deactivation photos. I guess they’d already moved on! Although they did have an AH-56 on display- I’ll bet that’s since moved on.
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Old 11-19-2022, 10:16 PM
shrike6 shrike6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homer
1st BDE-
3-67 AR was 1-40
1-70 AR was 1-40
3-67th didnt join the brigade until after it arrived at Hood and reflagged 2AD.

source:
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...280640I001.pdf


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3catcircus View Post
Anyone have any info on what the *real* 5th ID looked like in 2000? The excellent Jed McClure handout lists some units that don't match the 1989 NATO ORBAT, which looks like this:

5th Infantry Division (Mechanized)

4th Brigade (Aviation)
4-12th Cavalry Regiment (19 x M60A, 32 x M113, 4 x M577, 24 Dragon, 8 x AH-1F, 12 x OH-58C, 1 x UH-1H)
Was reflagged 3-1st Cavalry in 3Q 1989

source:
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...279798I001.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3catcircus View Post
5th Infantry Division Support Command
Consists of 705th, 105th, and 5th Support Battalion. It is rounded out by the 199th Support Battalion (LA NG)

Source:
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...280854I001.pdf


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3catcircus View Post
1-55th Air Defense Artillery Battalion (24 x Chaparral, 24 x Vulcan SP, 60 x FIM-92 Stinger)
Was reflagged 3-3ADA by 1989. And was Vulcan/Stinger mix by that time.

source:
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...107747I001.pdf
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