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Old 03-31-2012, 04:06 AM
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Default The Anglo German Brigade

Morning all,

Attached a short piece that attempts to expand slightly on the Anglo German Brigade first mentioned in the article on Canada in Challenge #30. All references to the situation in Canada are taken from the same article.

Comments / feedback / thoughts are most welcome. In particular if anyone knows of any German support formations that may have been based at Shilo or can advise of if German units name their tanks (and if so how they select names)?

Note the piece is based on V1, hence several references to the G11 rifle.
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:22 AM
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A good over write up explains why the german and UK goverments left there troops there, still wonder about all that amour. I think it be the frist to go, shipped home before the shotting starts, both government would need some armour to they bring a few units up to full strenght, I can see light infantry training in both locatiosn, as a way to take thm out of line for rest a refit and retrain with reforcements, it should also be noted that BATUS and GATES have air wings for medical evac, I think about one or two heilcoters BO-105 for the Germans and the Westland Gazelle for the Brits

CFB Suffield is also home Defence Research and Development Canada which conduct Chemical and Biological testing, and it also house a Ammuntion Depot.

I also think some Uk soilders would get their hand on the FN SLR which some Canada troops would be using, ome of the older UK troops might prefer it.
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:39 AM
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Here a good Pic to use too
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:44 AM
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Anyone have any ideas if any Europan NATO air units would still be left in North America in T2K?

Goose Bay in Labrador had a number of permanent air detachments from Britain, Germany, the Netherlands and Italy and others for low-level flying and training until the late 90's. Also the Luftwaffe Tactical Training Center is located at at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico, with F-4's and Tornado's.
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Old 03-31-2012, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcaf_777 View Post
A good over write up explains why the german and UK goverments left there troops there, still wonder about all that amour. I think it be the frist to go, shipped home before the shotting starts, both government would need some armour to they bring a few units up to full strenght.
It's a good point about the armour. I did wonder about that myself, but ultimately opted to leave it in situ for the reasons I've referenced, i.e. the shortage of shipping (not to mention the fact that it would have to be moved from the middle of Canada to the East Coast, presumably by rail). I think once it's decided to to commit the BATUS and GATES forces to Korea it may become a moot point as likelihood is they would have taken their armour to Korea with them had they deployed. I also rather doubt the Germans would move theirs prior to the outbreak of War in Europe, as shifting all of that gear back to Germany would send a fairly strong signal that something was amiss.

So I think there is a fairly limited window to move the armour.

Thanks for the tip about the SLR btw...will use that...will also try and incorporate the pic to give an idea of how much armour was stored at BATUS...I should have added some FV432's to the UK contingent.

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Anyone have any ideas if any Europan NATO air units would still be left in North America in T2K?

Goose Bay in Labrador had a number of permanent air detachments from Britain, Germany, the Netherlands and Italy and others for low-level flying and training until the late 90's. Also the Luftwaffe Tactical Training Center is located at at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico, with F-4's and Tornado's.
Good call. I'd imagine the Luftwaffe aircraft at Holloman would head home fairly quickly after the Bundeswehr cross the IGB. IIRC V1 source material makes reference to the Luftwaffe being seriously outnumbered, so every plane would count, and unlike tanks and APC's the F4's and Tornado's could self deploy back to Germany so long as they got aerial refuelling en route. SO i doubt if there would be any Luftwaffe aircraft left in the US.

Goose Bay is a different matter though dependent on which aircraft types were there...again I think anything capable of in flight refuelling would head back to Europe in October / November 1996, but if the aircraft are mainly trainers I don't know if they would have an IFR capability? I don't think the Hawk or the Alpha Jet do, although I could be mistaken. I suppose they could always get back by making a series of short hops...Goose Bay - Thule - Keflavik - Scotland maybe? Presumably the Italians would choose to do that (assuming they were given permission to use NATO bases).

Ultimately I think the key difference between the aircraft and the troops / armour at BATUS / GATES is that the aircraft can get themselves back to Europe...
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Old 03-31-2012, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
Anyone have any ideas if any Europan NATO air units would still be left in North America in T2K?

Goose Bay in Labrador had a number of permanent air detachments from Britain, Germany, the Netherlands and Italy and others for low-level flying and training until the late 90's. Also the Luftwaffe Tactical Training Center is located at at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico, with F-4's and Tornado's.
The based would countine on but I think would shift to ASW being used by the Canadian and USAF, and possible UK.

The Canaidan and US Coast Guard, still use the base on and off for Iceberg Patrol?
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Old 03-31-2012, 09:28 AM
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Here a good Link for Gates but it's in German

www.roketeer.de/cfb/cfb_index.htmlCached
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Old 03-31-2012, 11:46 AM
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Great article - if it's OK with you I might nick a few bits for my history.

A few observations:

* There are a number of Value Engineered Abbots there that could be added to the British ORBAT.

* I saw somebody refer to the unit as the Waterloo Brigade in commemoration of the last Anglo-German (well Prussian) alliance. You might want to use that.

* You are in luck with German tank names - this morning I found a new fact that they are sometimes given the surname of their commanders (at least in the Leopard 1).

* As a background touch the Cheshires wear an oak leaf behind the cap badge when parading before royalty, maybe they adopt a Maple leaf when parading in front of Canadian leaders?

* Bear in mind Canadian Militia Bns are really companies in size.

* Love the touch of the repainted Leopard.

* Some of the uniforms will have worn out and probably been replaced with Canadian equivalents. Maybe in a museum is a flecktarn with Canadian insignia (inc national flash) but a German name.

* Would the panzer Bn have mixed tanks? If you want Leopard Is maybe a recce unit?

* The distinctive paint scheme has been used in the UK, I've seen them at Warminster over the last 5 years at least. I have a recollection of seeing it on the TV series "Soldier Soldier" at the same place in the mid-late 90s. Possibly returned from Canada and not repainted?

Once again great work.

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Originally Posted by Rainbow Six View Post
Morning all,

Attached a short piece that attempts to expand slightly on the Anglo German Brigade first mentioned in the article on Canada in Challenge #30. All references to the situation in Canada are taken from the same article.

Comments / feedback / thoughts are most welcome. In particular if anyone knows of any German support formations that may have been based at Shilo or can advise of if German units name their tanks (and if so how they select names)?

Note the piece is based on V1, hence several references to the G11 rifle.
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Old 03-31-2012, 07:58 PM
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I noticed that you have C Squadron, 13th / 18th Royal Hussars and the 1st Battalion, Royal Hampshire Regiment in Kitchener, Ontario and the Panzergrenadierbataillon 81 in Waterloo. I think they if the Canadian Government would send troops to southwest Ontario it would be to London.
Here is why:

1) GM Defense (now General Dynamics Land System) is based in London, which makes the MLVW (medium logistic vehicle, wheeled), Cougar AVGP, Grizzly AVGP, Husky AVGP, Coyote Reconnaissance Vehicle, and the LAV III

2) General Motors Diesel; a Canadian railway diesel locomotive manufacturer; is also based in London.

3) They have an Airport big enough to land a Antonov An-225 Mriya. (http://atomictoasters.com/2010/11/sp...rier-aircraft/) a aircraft maintenance facilities.

4) Canadian Forces Base London (also CFB London) is a former Canadian Forces Base that was located in London, Ontario, Canada. It was downsized and closed during defense budget cutbacks in the 1990s.

On a person note I live in Waterloo and I have lived in Kitchener as well London.
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Old 04-01-2012, 05:26 AM
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All, thanks for your feedback, much appreciated.

James, I'll look at incorporating that info into a second draft. I particularly like the part about uniforms. I think it was the etranger site that coined the name "Waterloo Brigade". I couldn't find any reference to it in the Challenge article so decided against it. Re: the mix of Leopard 1 / II's, I was going on the basis that BATUS / GATES seem to have stocks of a wide range of vehicles (same reason I gave the Hussars two Scimitars). Thanks for the info on the tank names.

And feel free to take any parts you want for your history...no problem with that whatsoever...

Canadian Army, you make a good case for the troops being in London - ultimately the reason I put them where they are is because that's where GDW put them in the Challenge article (they have the 3rd Battalion, Regina Rifle Regiment in London). It's likely the British and Germans might carry out patrols along Highway 401 though?

As a side note, I can't actually see the 4th Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment anywhere on the order of battle in the Challenge article. I think they would have been based in London? Granted there were a few nuclear targets in Southwest Ontario, so maybe they got caught up in those but a quick glance shows there are a few other Battalions missing as well (e.g. the Canadian Grenadier Guards). I know Canadian Militia Battalions were usually at Company strength in peacetime, so what's the likiliehood of al the Militia Battalions being brought up to full strength, or would they be consolidated?
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:13 AM
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Excellent work as ever. Attempting to ship them to Korea for a token British presence is a sound reason.

There was back in the first Korean war, a Commonwealth Division made up of Australian, British and Canadian personnel, Perhaps a reformed version of this (or a Brigade version) was the unit they were going to join?

With regard to the Royal Hampshire Regiment, their company's were named ' A, B, Y and Z'. Z company being the support company. I am currently reading 'The Hampshire Tigers: 1945 to 1992', which is where I gleamed this from. It does not say why this done. But chalk it up to usual British regimental idiosyncratic behaviour.

One question though, why the low numbers of personnel in the battalions? The units in the European theatres are affected by battle casualties, nukes as much as disease and desertion. But surely with food from Canadian farms and not engaging in costly actions, means they should have a higher compliment compared to other units across the globe?
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:56 AM
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Cheers Dude, I'll change the Royal Hampshires' Companies to A, Y, and Z in the next draft (with B still going to Cyprus).

With regard to the unit strengths, like the locations, the figures for the Cheshires, Hampshires, and the two German Battalions are taken directly from the Challenge article - that's what the writer of that article gave them, so I've stuck with that (I'm inclined to agree with you in that they should be stronger than that). The Hussar Squadron and the support units are my own figures (I did ponder whether or not the Hussars should have more tanks, but didn't want to push it given the Germans only have nine for their entire Battalion...)

We can probably attribute any reduction in manpower to four factors:

1. Combat losses suffered in action against marauder groups

2. Losses to disease

3. Desertion - it's probable that numbers of personnel would have established ties in the Suffield / Shilo areas - wives, girlfriends, kids, etc - so may have deserted rather than leave those areas

4. Volunteers attached to the Canadian Forces fighting the Quebec Separatists. (There may be entire Companies from the Cheshires and the 81st Pazer Grenadiers attached to the Canadians).
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Old 04-01-2012, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Six View Post
I know Canadian Militia Battalions were usually at Company strength in peacetime, so what's the likiliehood of al the Militia Battalions being brought up to full strength, or would they be consolidated?
Very unlikely to be full strength IMO. I'd say consolidated into extremely light battalion formations with virtually none of the heavier support elements such as TOW and 81mm mortars found in regular battalions (for example only one of the 50+ reserve battalions had any 81mm tubes IRL and they were slotted to reinforce 4 Brigade in Germany).
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Old 04-01-2012, 02:14 PM
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As for returning the aircraft to Europe, IIRC the Hawk has a retractable probe for air-air refuelling- it is certainly IFR capable (not sure of how well it handles ice accretion, which would be the big threat on a long ocean crossing).
It is a long way over water for a single engine, and takes a lot of tanker time. It is usual practice to refuel within range of a diversion, so that if refuelling fails the receiving aircraft has somewhere to go.
With all these factors in mind, I suspect that by the time the Hawks were needed in Europe, the resources needed to bring them back would not be available. If they returned, it would be by ship, crated up- more likely they are still in Canada.
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Old 04-08-2012, 03:55 AM
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Attached an updated version incorporating some of the suggestions put forward and the photo supplied by rcaf_777...
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File Type: pdf The Anglo German Brigade.pdf (374.9 KB, 163 views)
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Old 04-13-2012, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
The distinctive paint scheme has been used in the UK, I've seen them at Warminster over the last 5 years at least. I have a recollection of seeing it on the TV series "Soldier Soldier" at the same place in the mid-late 90s. Possibly returned from Canada and not repainted?
The distinct colour scheme from canada is also used to represent 'Op-forces' on exercises according to Warrior Company by Simon Dunstan.
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Army View Post
I noticed that you have C Squadron, 13th / 18th Royal Hussars and the 1st Battalion, Royal Hampshire Regiment in Kitchener, Ontario and the Panzergrenadierbataillon 81 in Waterloo. I think they if the Canadian Government would send troops to southwest Ontario it would be to London.
Here is why:

1) GM Defense (now General Dynamics Land System) is based in London, which makes the MLVW (medium logistic vehicle, wheeled), Cougar AVGP, Grizzly AVGP, Husky AVGP, Coyote Reconnaissance Vehicle, and the LAV III

2) General Motors Diesel; a Canadian railway diesel locomotive manufacturer; is also based in London.

3) They have an Airport big enough to land a Antonov An-225 Mriya. (http://atomictoasters.com/2010/11/sp...rier-aircraft/) a aircraft maintenance facilities.

4) Canadian Forces Base London (also CFB London) is a former Canadian Forces Base that was located in London, Ontario, Canada. It was downsized and closed during defense budget cutbacks in the 1990s.

On a person note I live in Waterloo and I have lived in Kitchener as well London.
I live in London, and you have London being centralized to both Toronto and Detroit and well supported by area supoort units. It is also in the middle of a vital crop growing area so supplying the troops would be no problem. Finally you have major truck manufacturers in St Thomas too.
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