A couple of T2013 questions

[Dendron]

Hi all

We are going to start a T2013 campain, after thinking about is for some.....years :-(

Anyway I have a couple of questions that I thought some of you might be able to help me with.

1) Range of handguns. Most handguns (Autoloaders and Revolvers) have GF/CQB as Optimal/Maximum range. This would mean that your skill would bew +/-0 in 0-7m range and -3 in 7-25m range.
No as I understand the rules there is no chans of hitting a person (in combat) above this range?
Let's say at 35m you can't hit a enemy? I basicly have zero experience of handguns my self but that sound a bit extreme?

2) Ranged attacks.
I see that there are modifications for range (Range Bands), Wind, Fog and Light. Bur can't find anything about support. Is there any difference (in the rules) between a standing shot and one done with support? If so do you have a reference to it?


Will be back later for more questions most likely, as we haven't yet played T2013 yet ;-)


/Dendron

[DigTw0Grav3s]

Tegyrius was deeply involved in the rules creation process, if not the main system writer, so he can probably offer more clarity than I can. He's active here, so I'm sure he'll pop in soon.

There's a sidebar that explains range bands and flexibility in their use on Page 146. Range bands are far more granular at close range than at long range, so there might be a case for allowing a shot marginally beyond maximum range. Tegyrius should be able to offer some suggestions on this one.

There's no specific mechanical bonuses for stabilizing a weapon in 2013, beyond bipods and tripods. I've always assumed that such an advantage was rolled into a combination of stance (Sidebar, Page 139.) and shot type, with Aimed Shots taking maximum advantage of stabilization. I've actually wondered about this as well. Perhaps Tegyrius can propose some kind of Stage III element to this, possibly involving more exposure from cover than would otherwise be required?

Also, it's nice to see 2013 people here - I think it's a little underrated. It certainly provides an easier medium for players who aren't super familiar with militaria, and I think the setting is a little more accommodating for non-combat conflict scenes and story arcs. It feels like it was written with a more "modern" view of a global breakdown, as opposed to 2000, which was (understandably) married to the Cold War origin. I just wish we had more material.

[The Rifleman]

I'm no expert on the rules of T2K; there are some guys in these forums who know that far better than I. I am qualified to speak about shooting of pistols at "long" range. First, lets talk about US army pistol shooting.

The "average" US army course has your "E" targets or your 3' tall hammer and sickle warriors coming up and down at a range of 5 to 20 meters. The regs for the setup for a range allow for the targets to go as far out as 31 meters but the furthest I've ever seen in quite a few years of shooting is about 25. The "pop up" pistol range is very frustrating for shooters as the targets are under 3' high, so you are shooting down instead of straight. Also, most of the ranges are quite cramped, so its confusing what target is in what lane. Most of the time, shooters with the poor results often say that the targets full of holes aren't going down....

At any rate, my point to this is that there is a lot of lead going into the berms without hitting a target first. When you spend a day on the range, see 200 or so soldiers come through with sometimes dismal results, the reality is that if you were to extend the range another 10 meters, unless its some really good shooter, its unrealistic.

This brings me to my next point. I'm also a police officer. Cops shoot alot with handguns. Police departments tend to have a lot of organizational knowledge about pistols just like most army units do with rifles. Pistols are a defensive weapon. You don't go out and blaze away at long range. Also, most shootings occur with 5 meters in the police world. Cops spend an amazing amount of time doing some pretty neat tricks (which I won't discuss) at everything from 3-10 meters. Most of the shooting on police ranges for qualification ends at 21-25 meters.

Police shooting tends to get much more realistic about shooting conditions. They have blue lights mounted on the range, spot lights to simulate headlights, they have noise, distractors, force you to move, shoot, and identify targets. They also have pretty challeging scenarios. Unexpected magazine changes, shooting out of cars, shooting from flat on the ground, shooting weak handed only with a FTF, shooting at targets that "run" at you... I've done combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan and have been a cop (with the associated high stress situations) for 10 years. I'll tell you that style of interactive training is much more realistic to combat conditions. There is NO way that you are going to do any of those drills that replicate combat and hit targets at 35 meters. Targets in combat move, take cover and shoot back.

I have practiced shooting at 50 meters with a pistol. Even with 25 years of firearms experience from 2 fields, its tough. To hit consistantly, you need to be stabilized on something, you need to have some pretty dam awesome trigger and breathing control, you need to know your weapon SO well because you need to be aiming so dam high above your target..... and all that is with a stationary target. Whoever developed the rules for T2K pistol shooting was a wise man. They chose the perfect ranges for pistols.

[Rockwolf66]

Me I have been shooting for about 20 years now and that's all forms of firearm.

That being says 25m is an OK range for someone who shoots maybe once a year. Ie Police or Military shooters.

I have shot magnum handguns out to 100m and I know people who compete with handguns out to 200~250m. I also know people who hunt with handguns who have taken game at around 100m.

the man who designed the .44 magnum once dropped a wounded deer out at 600 yards.

Article

All that being said Unless your character is clearing a very small space a handgun is an emergency defensive weapon. It's something you carry so that if your Automatic weapon goes down you have a better backup weapon than your fists and feet.

[The Rifleman]

Yes, I've heard the story of Elmer and the miracle pistol shot. Even if its true, Elmer wasn't a soldier, he was a hunter and the deer don't get to shoot back.

I take NOTHING away from the good old boys who have spent their whole lives shooting/hunting with no formal training. They are self taught from experience and tend to gain knowledge from family tradition that is stronger than military organization knowledge. Also, the best shooters are using their own customized weapons and hand loads. Certainly not impossible for the world of T2K, however Joey Tentpeg in your average infantry platoon is not going to have a customized .38 super with a scope. Also, a lot of hand loads that are designed for match shooting are not designed for military applications. Joey most like has some wonderful ball ammo for his pistol.

I don't care how good someone can shoot, applying combat circumstances to shooting drastically lowers accuracy. Lets have 2 situations:

#1, Private Jones bets some members of the Krakow ORMO that he can hit a tin can at 100 yards with his M1911 in exchange for a free pass into the city. Private Jones has the luxary of getting his breathing, sight picture, trigger squeeze all under control, no time constraints.

#2, Private Jones sees three approaching maruaders at 75 yards. One is providing cover fire with his AKM while the other two are doing successive bounding rushes between rocks and trees towards his position. Private Jones now has to worry about maintaining cover, keeping track of his evolving tactical situation as he is in danger of being suppressed and outflanked. Not to mention, if he exposes himself from cover, there is no way that he will have time, with iron sights, to get a good sight picture, adjust for windage, and get the perfect trigger squeeze to make even a 50 meter shot.

Combat shooting with a pistol is simply not realistic past 30 meters for a good shooter, and probably a lot less for even an average shooter.

[Legbreaker]

This is one of the reasons why the HK G11 was developed with a three round burst as the standard setting. Combat accuracy even with a rifle isn't that great - increasing the number of projectiles fired at a time theoretically increases the chance of a shooter hitting the target.

[bobcat]

and all this data is for the big part of the bell curve. i know people who is a combat environment don't even make good paperweights, and some who can barely qualify on a range but would put Sergeant York to shame in combat shooting.

naturally in any twilight war scenario the bell curve would become rapidly lopsided as those who crack under pressure die of natural selection, which does push the range bands out a little further. when its learn or die you don't stay mediocre.

[Dendron]

Hi all

Thanks for the answers, I feel convinced of the intentions of the game design.

As for shooting with a "perfect" support I will most likely use the rules for bipod.
Recoil -2 and Aimed shoots +2 bonus. (Shorter then otimum range dubble speed or loose the bonus (first shoot without bonus will still double speed)).

As for stances, I see that there are some defencive bonuses by going prone, feels right. But there are no offencive bonuses. As I understand it you have the same chance of scoring a hit standing as you have kneeling or a prone.

Being from Sweden I have only done a basic military training but from that it was a loot easier hitting something while prone then it was standing.....so I would have expected to have some bonus....will have to think about that (or use half the bipod for prone and full is "perfect" support)....


/Dendron

[Tegyrius]

I think the issues here have been answered adequately (and you seem happy with them), but I'll add some thoughts. As DigTw0Grav3s indicated, I was the primary rules designer for T2013's Reflex engine, but I had significant help from folks with more experience and ballistics savvy. What follows are my own observations. All errors are my own.

Originally Posted by Dendron

1) Range of handguns. Most handguns (Autoloaders and Revolvers) have GF/CQB as Optimal/Maximum range. This would mean that your skill would bew +/-0 in 0-7m range and -3 in 7-25m range.
No as I understand the rules there is no chans of hitting a person (in combat) above this range?
Let's say at 35m you can't hit a enemy? I basicly have zero experience of handguns my self but that sound a bit extreme?

Sure, it's feasible for to make shots out to 100m or beyond. I'm not a particularly adept gunman but I've gotten hits on torso-sized steel targets at 75m... under "square range" conditions. However, the Reflex rules set was designed to reflect hit probabilities under combat conditions, including the assumption of significant physiological stress on the shooter. If you're not in a fight (Rifleman's example of showing off for the ORMO), I'd allow a significant bonus to the roll.

2) Ranged attacks.
I see that there are modifications for range (Range Bands), Wind, Fog and Light. Bur can't find anything about support. Is there any difference (in the rules) between a standing shot and one done with support? If so do you have a reference to it?

You've already found the stance rules in the sidebar on page 139. I agree that the omission of a "braced" rule for supporting a weapon was an oversight. As stated on page 260, a bipod gives a +2 bonus to aimed shots and reduces Recoil by 2 (but slows down shots inside optimum range). I'd say a supported attack works the same way, but it adds 1 to the attack's Speed... and only works if you have an appropriate terrain element. This interfaces with the existing rules and still provides some value to the bipod. If that seems insufficient, we can discuss a modification to the stance rules instead.

- C.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by DigTw0Grav3s

Also, it's nice to see 2013 people here - I think it's a little underrated. It certainly provides an easier medium for players who aren't super familiar with militaria, and I think the setting is a little more accommodating for non-combat conflict scenes and story arcs. It feels like it was written with a more "modern" view of a global breakdown, as opposed to 2000, which was (understandably) married to the Cold War origin.

That was the design intent. It wasn't too well-received around here, though.

I just wish we had more material.

You have seen the free material linked in my signature, right? There's about another 90,000 words of setting and a vehicle companion.

(I have some additional thoughts on the line's future here, though they may be a trifle disappointing. We also discussed some of the legal issues associated with the license here and here.)

- C.

[Dendron]

Yes I'm happy with the answers and feedback.

I accept the thinking behind the relativly short range of handguns and think my players will aswell. I know that at least on of the was questioning this rule, he has spent some time with a pistol on the gun range (in Libanon doring UN service)....using as SIG something.
Doing that he was abale to hit targets at 100m, but then onone was shooting back at him ;-)

As for the support question I'll try out +1 Attack, +1 Speed and Recoil -1 for Kneeling attack using knee as support and +2 Attack, +1 Speed and Recoil -2 if support in terrain is appropriate Tactical (COG) to find maybe? Will try this out as we play and see what feels right...

Thanks for feedback will be back with an update as we tries this out.

/Dendron

[DigTw0Grav3s]

Any thoughts on a grip-pod accessory? I've been playing around with some ideas for house rules for one, but I can't make it feel right.

[DigTw0Grav3s]

Some additional questions;

• What's the advantage of an Entry Jacket over a Tactical Vest with all the additional parts?
• What stat roll would you use for diving on a grenade? I'm leaning towards CUF, but I'm not sure.
• Does anybody still have the "area targets" rules addition for automatics?

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by DigTw0Grav3s

Some additional questions;

What's the advantage of an Entry Jacket over a Tactical Vest with all the additional parts?

Not much of one, really, other than getting the bicep coverage without having to buy the separate component.

What stat roll would you use for diving on a grenade? I'm leaning towards CUF, but I'm not sure.

I'd go with CUF, yeah. That's a combination of suicidal courage and instantaneous reaction.

Does anybody still have the "area targets" rules addition for automatics?

Wow. Almost four years since I posted that on the old 93GS forums. Fortunately, I saved a local copy.

Rather than firing all of a burst at a single victim, a shooter with a fully automatic weapon can sweep a burst of automatic fire across an area, endangering every valid target within that area. Due to the random danger of automatic fire that's only semi-aimed, this is resolved in a manner similar to an attack with an explosive warhead.

The attacker makes the initial attack normally against the target area, but does not receive the usual bonus for burst fire. If the attack succeeds, the burst sweeps the target area. Treat this as an "explosion" with the following differences:

• no direct damage
• Blast 0
• Radius equal to one-third the rate of fire; no secondary radius
• Frag equal to one-third the rate of fire
• fragments have Damage and Penetration as normal for the weapon

When rolling for "Frag" hits, use d10s if the target area is within the weapon's effective range or d20s if it's outside effective range. Each die indicates a hit if the result is less than or equal to the attack's MoS. For this purpose, an MoS greater than 5 is treated as 5.

Note that if more than three valid victims occupy the target area, this method may produce more hits than bullets fired. At the GM's discretion, common sense should be applied to rationalize the extra hits as overpenetration or to reduce the total number of hits.

Example: Justin has been knocked unconscious and is being dragged away by three enemy soldiers. Matt decides that the risk of injuring Justin is less than the danger of letting him be captured and fires a long burst from his Minimi (Rate of Fire B9, Damage 6, Pen x2) at the group. Matt's attack succeeds with an MoS of 4, producing an explosion-like effect with Radius 3 and Frag 3 centered on Justin. For each of the four characters in the target area - Justin and the three enemies - Matt rolls 3d10, with a die result of 3 or less indicating a hit with Damage 6 and Penetration x2.

- C.

[DigTw0Grav3s]

You the man, Teg.

[Cdnwolf]

Originally Posted by DigTw0Grav3s

You the man, Teg.

And he has a cute butt too!!