Challenge Magazine?

[RN7]

Are the Twilight 2000 articles in Challenge Magazine considered to be T2K canon or a version of it?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I was given to believe that they were not considered canon. I thought that material submitted to any sort of support magazine is fan material and thus not canon (unless officially endorsed as canon by the game designers themselves)

However I think some articles in Challenge were written by people who were also contracted to write canon material for the official game supplements so I must admit to some confusion on the matter. I don't think we will ever have a correct answer unless one of the GDW staff supplied an answer.

[kato13]

By any definition some challenge articles certainly became canon later. The target list in the Big yellow book (and Howling Wilderness) was in one of the first few challenge articles (along with the USSR and Canadian lists IIRC).

I honestly don't care about canon but I think if an article was written by one of the original creators/authors it would probably be canon. Actually if I am remembering correctly only the last challenge T2k article ("Rockets Red Glare"?) was a pure fan submission (and I choose to fully ignore it). I believe the rest were either by GDW staff or commissioned articles.


Edit Added howling wilderness reference. As that would make the challenge article both v1 and v2 canon.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I was given to believe that they were not considered canon. I thought that material submitted to any sort of support magazine is fan material and thus not canon (unless officially endorsed as canon by the game designers themselves)

However I think some articles in Challenge were written by people who were also contracted to write canon material for the official game supplements so I must admit to some confusion on the matter. I don't think we will ever have a correct answer unless one of the GDW staff supplied an answer.

Fair enough.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by kato13

By any definition some challenge articles certainly became canon later. The target list in the Big yellow book was in one of the first few challenge articles (along with the USSR and Canadian lists IIRC).

I honestly don't care about canon but I think if an article was written by one of the original creators/authors it would probably be canon. Actually if I am remembering correctly only the last challenge T2k article ("Rockets Red Glare"?) was a pure fan submission (and I choose to fully ignore it). I believe the rest were either by GDW staff or commissioned articles.

I am asking as I now have Challenge Magazine #25 to 77. I'm reading through them at the moment and there are some very good Twilight 2000 articles.

Many of them were written by Loren K. Wiseman and other well known names, and they certainly could be used to expand information on what we already have in Twilight 2000 from the source books. A lot of additional information on parts of the US and Canada, the Soviet nuclear target list, and some locations in Europe and the Middle East. One good article on what happens to the space shuttles and Soviet shuttle and space stations. I'll type some of it up if I can find some time if anybody interested

[Draq]

I will qbsorb it all

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Draq

I will qbsorb it all

Resistance is Futile....

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by kato13

By any definition some challenge articles certainly became canon later. The target list in the Big yellow book (and Howling Wilderness) was in one of the first few challenge articles (along with the USSR and Canadian lists IIRC).

I honestly don't care about canon but I think if an article was written by one of the original creators/authors it would probably be canon. Actually if I am remembering correctly only the last challenge T2k article ("Rockets Red Glare"?) was a pure fan submission (and I choose to fully ignore it). I believe the rest were either by GDW staff or commissioned articles.

And some of the articles were written under house names. "Karl Johnson" (who did Rifle River in issue #39) is Charles Gannon.

[WallShadow]

I think most of the articles were well done and integrate smoothly with the game; one might take them as "canon, if so desired", or modify or ignore the hell out of them. They are a fuel-source to your game, and, of course, YMMV.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by kato13

By any definition some challenge articles certainly became canon later. The target list in the Big yellow book (and Howling Wilderness) was in one of the first few challenge articles (along with the USSR and Canadian lists IIRC).

I honestly don't care about canon but I think if an article was written by one of the original creators/authors it would probably be canon. Actually if I am remembering correctly only the last challenge T2k article ("Rockets Red Glare"?) was a pure fan submission (and I choose to fully ignore it). I believe the rest were either by GDW staff or commissioned articles.


Edit Added howling wilderness reference. As that would make the challenge article both v1 and v2 canon.

I never concerned myself with Cannon either. If I like it, I use it. If I don't, then I imagine an alternative to replace it.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I never concerned myself with Cannon either. If I like it, I use it. If I don't, then I imagine an alternative to replace it.

When I was young I was obsessed with Bruce Lee (hence Kato) and his main philosophy in martial arts was to break out of the chains of rigid styles that could never fit every practitioner and every situation perfectly. Therefor you study everything and...

"Absorb what is useful. Reject what is useless. Add what is uniquely your own." -Bruce Lee

So I think we are of a similar mindset.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by kato13

When I was young I was obsessed with Bruce Lee (hence Kato) and his main philosophy in martial arts was to break out of the chains of rigid styles that could never fit every practitioner and every situation perfectly. Therefor you study everything and...

"Absorb what is useful. Reject what is useless. Add what is uniquely your own." -Bruce Lee

So I think we are of a similar mindset.

I wish I had your mastery of computers. Then I could type up my house rules and post them like all the cool "guides" (I'm looking at James here) and "sourcebooks" (oh where to start here) in this forum.

I know you've heard it before, but I'll say it again... You, sir, are a GREAT forum admin and the collective knowledge gathered here is an irreplaceable gaming aid.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I wish I had your mastery of computers. Then I could type up my house rules and post them like all the cool "guides" (I'm looking at James here) and "sourcebooks" (oh where to start here) in this forum.

I know you've heard it before, but I'll say it again... You, sir, are a GREAT forum admin and the collective knowledge gathered here is an irreplaceable gaming aid.

I am grateful for the complement, but I only made the vessel. The true value of this place comes from everyone who contributes.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I wish I had your mastery of computers. Then I could type up my house rules and post them like all the cool "guides" (I'm looking at James here) and "sourcebooks" (oh where to start here) in this forum.

I know you've heard it before, but I'll say it again... You, sir, are a GREAT forum admin and the collective knowledge gathered here is an irreplaceable gaming aid.

Thanks, but I think Issac Newton's comment about standing on the shoulders of giants sums it up best.... I would say however that ANYONE can do what I have, unless you try you will never know.

[Olefin]

What Marc told me was that some of the articles were canon - those that were specifically written by Loren for instance - what he did say was that if the authors for the new material wanted to use Challenge Magazine articles to cite them and tell him ahead of time what we were using so he could ok it

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Thanks, but I think Issac Newton's comment about standing on the shoulders of giants sums it up best.... I would say however that ANYONE can do what I have, unless you try you will never know.

Writing isn't the issue (just look at my post history), it is uploading all the stuff I have typed up. I need to get out of the truck for a couple of weeks and get myself to a computer class and learn these skills.

[pmulcahy11b]

In the end, you as the GM have to decide which articles to accept as canon, and which ones have to be modified to fit into your canon or discarded.

[Tegyrius]

You're treading dangerously close to heresy there, Paul. Everything that is not canon is forbidden and everything that is not forbidden is canon. GM discretion is a slippery slope that leads to things like Twilight: 2000/My Little Pony: Tales of Equestria crossover adventures...

- C.

[RN7]

These are two articles from Challenge Magazine issues 56 and 58. Both articles concern CivGov activities in Ohio and give a lot of information about locations and military forces in the state.

Lima Incident (by Paul T. Riegel)

This article concerns a CivGov mission to investigate the Lima Tank Plant and survey the state of Ohio. The 112th Medical Division stationed in Columbus Ohio is coming out in support of CivGov, but needs help to gain control over the situation in the Ohio region. They are suffering from the ravages of marauders, and MilGov's 194th Armored Brigade has also been testing the state's borders.

Some officers from the 112th Medical Division have travelled from Columbus to Frederick Maryland, by way of southern Pennsylvania and northern West Virginia. They informed CivGov that there are 30 M1 Abrams sitting outside of the former General Motors Lima Tank Plant, in Lima Ohio. The Lima Plant is occupied by a marauder group called the Lima Constabulary, and MilGov is also aware of tanks at Lima. The mission is to escort the officers back to Columbus, then proceed to Lima and secure the tank plant. They are then to radio Frederick about the number of tanks available, hold them and wait until tank transporters are sent from Frederick.

Getting There

There are three viable road routes to Ohio; 1-70 through Pennsylvania, US-40 through Pennsylvania, and 1-77 through West Virginia. Travelling along I-70 and US-40 will meet several large and powerful marauder groups in western Pennsylvania (Allegheny Uprising), although they are more scattered than before. Using I-77 will involve travelling through Virginia and then north through West Virginia. The journey should be quiet until the party reaches the vicinity of Charleston, WV were they will meet the Jameyson's Irregulars. Whichever route travelled the party will have to cross the Ohio River to reach Columbus.

The Ohio River: Most of the bridges on the Ohio are either unsafe or totally destroyed. There are three usable bridges at Wheeling, Portsmouth and Cincinnati. The Wheeling bridge is controlled by 275th Military Police Battalion. The Portsmouth Bridge is controlled by the Ohio Defence Corps, but is damaged and not capable of supporting anything over 5 tons. The Cincinnati bridge is controlled by a marauder group called the Cincinnati Pirates. Each of the small river towns have a limited ferry service for a price, but nothing large enough to carry a vehicle. In addition a large ferry service is operating at Marietta run by the river people. The first obstacle on the way to Lima is the 194th Armored Brigade. They are constantly putting out long ranged patrols to test the responses of the Ohio military, and could be encountered anywhere. .

Ohio

Ohio is divided into a series of fortified enclaves controlling various population centres and key positions. These are operated by the Ohio National Guard and the Ohio Military Reserve (OMR) that are still loyal to the governor. The OMR was authorised in the late 1980's as a backup force in case the Ohio National Guard was called up. This is what happened in the Twilight War, and the OMR is an unpaid, volunteer force of retirees, those unfit for service in the active branches, and those who just want to play soldier. Much of the state is not controlled by the state's enclaves, and is inhabited by small bands of farmers and refugees. In addition there are several active marauder groups, both former national guard and civilian. The largest of these numbers 500 and operates in northern Ohio, southern Michigan and northern Indiana. Most are however much smaller in size and in area of operation.

Columbus: The surviving Ohio state government is located in Columbus. The centre of the city has been abandoned and left to scavengers, and the city is now really four inter-connected refugee camps controlled by the government. The situation in Columbus is stable and all of the camps are well fortified. The largest camp is in the Dublin-Hilliard corridor to the northwest, with the others at Grove City and in the Reynoldsburg-Pataskala and Westerville-Sunbury areas. Patrols are regularly sent out into the surrounding area and into the city, and they have a regular messenger service with Lancaster. Columbus is the headquarters of the 112th Medical Division, and has 160 trained soldiers in four firebases, with another 250 full-time militia and 450 emergency militia.

Chillicothe, Washington Court House and Circleville Camps: These refugee camps located near the small towns of Chillicothe, Washington Court House and Circleville are among the best developed of the refugee camps under state control. They are large and gaining in population, but order has been maintained. All three camps are under their own control and have been heavily fortified. Patrols outside of the camps are non-existent but each camp has its own militia. Each camp has 10 trained soldiers and 125 full-time militiamen.

Cincinnati: The city is now sacked and nearly deserted, inhabited only by scavengers and those under the control of the Cincinnati Pirates. The Cincinnati Pirates have taken over the bridges on the Ohio River and occupied the riverfront areas of the city. They enforce a river crossing tax on all who pass through the city, and number 80 men. They have an M-47 Dragon ATGM with several rounds.

Coshocton: A small independent community that has constructed its own fortifications. It has a well established agricultural base and has universal conscription for all members of the community between 16 and 60. They are armed with a wide range of civilian and para-military small arms, and are extremely leery of strangers.

Defiance: Now known as Fort Defiance, this town is under the control of MilGov (1st Section, A Company, 194th Armored Brigade). This is a recon group from A Company that was sent to Detroit to gain spare parts for the 194th's vehicles. They were ambushed and withdrew to Defiance to await support which has yet to come. The 1st Section has 26 soldiers, 20 local recruits, 1 M113A5, 1 HMMWV-FS and 4 HMWWV. They mount extensive patrols out into the surrounding area.

Findlay, Fostoria and Tiffin Camps: This group of camps was hastily set up outside of the small towns of Findlay, Fostoria and Tiffany, to help refugees from the nuclear attacks on Lima and Toledo. They lacked basic facilities and the state had no units to send to aid the new camps, so they relied on local police and government to keep order. This failed miserably and the half trained and ill equipped 2nd Infantry Battalion OMR was committed to suppress rioting and restore order. They quickly learned how to rule through intimidation and force, which led to dozens of deaths but the camps have slightly improved and are now fortified. The 2nd Infantry Battalion has 55 trained soldiers and 60 full-time militiamen. They mount no patrols after dark and the camps have been extensively raided.

Ironton: This town was devastated by a nuclear missile which hit Catlettsburg, Kentucky across the Ohio River.

Lancaster, Logan, Nelsonville and Athens Camps: These refugee camps are located near the small towns of Lancaster, Logan, Nelsonville and Athens situated along Route 33. These four communities are under state control and are heavily fortified, and the surrounding areas are extensively patrolled. Most of the population is involved in agricultural production, and the camps are expanding from an influx of people from Columbus. The area is under the control of the 224th Air Defence Battalion, who have 56 trained soldiers, 200 full-time militiamen and 6 M-42 Duster AA vehicles and some Redeye SAM.

Lima: The city was extensively damaged by a nuclear strike. Those areas not affected are controlled by the Lima Constabulary, a group of escaped convicts who control the Lima Tank Plant. They have 35 men with para-military and civilian small arms.

Marietta: This town was deserted after Ironton was devastated and has never officially been repopulated. A group called the River People have moved in to inhabit and scavenge the town. The River People are hostile to all strangers and have attacked both independent travellers, Ohio military patrols and marauder groups. They have built defensive positions along the Ohio River and patrol their territory using an old converted river tug. The River People number 30 military trained men and 75 other armed men who are deserters, survivalists etc.

Marion, Bucyrus and Upper Sandusky Camps: These refugee camps located near the small towns of Marion, Bucyrus and Upper Sandusky are now independent, but they are lawful and trade with both CivGov and MilGov. The camps are overcrowded but are ordered and they are actively building new facilities for the residents. There are 20 military trained men, 60 full-time militia and 130 part-time militia.

Marysville, Bellfontaine and Kenton Camps: These refugee camps located near the small towns of Marysville, Bellfontaine and Kenton were among the last established, and have been abandoned by the state and are controlled by their own militia and surviving police forces. They have 15 military trained men, 70 full-time militia and 125 part-time mailmen. They also have 4 M35 trucks and 5M151 jeeps.

Portsmouth: This river town is controlled by the Ohio Defence Corps and A Company, 3rd Military Police Group. The town is in good shape despite being subjected to raids in the past by numerous marauder groups including the Jameyson's Irregulars and the Kentucky Mountainmen. The town is now heavily fortified on all sides, with 60 trained soldiers, 100 full-time militia and 160 part-time militia.

Toledo: The city was devastated by nuclear strikes on the oil fields and oil refineries to the west of the city. The town is now abandoned except for a handful of scavengers and thugs.

Waverly and Lucasville Camps: These camps were established to control the Ohio Correctional Facility at Lucasville, and have escalated into a major penal colony. Law and order is heavily maintained by the 3rd Military Police Group (less A Company at Portsmouth). They have established a heavily fortified camp in the small town of Waverly, and a large prisoner compound at Lucasville on the site of the Ohio Correctional Facility. There are 80 trained soldiers and 100 full-time militiamen.

Wheeling, West Virginia: Wheeling falls under this area due to the presence of A Company, 275th Military Police Battalion. The deserted city is now only inhabited by a small number of scavengers and the sole remaining bridge is fortified and occupied by 53 MP's.

Zanesville, McConnelsville and Cambridge Camps: These are a series of state controlled camps located near the small towns of Zanesville, McConnelsville and Cambridge. They are massively overcrowded and living conditions in the camps are among the worst in the state. The camps are patrolled by the 2nd Military Police Group, but the unit is so understrength that external patrols are impossible to undertake. The camps are guarded by 70 trained soldiers and 85 full-time militiamen, but have not been fortified and are frequently raided by marauders and even the Jameyson's Irregulars.

Lima Tank Factory

Although Lima was targeted in the nuclear attack on America, the tank factory has survived due to it being located in the north-eastern corner of Lima and escaping the worst of the nuclear last hit the southwest of the city. Fear of radiation has kept out scavengers, thieves and refugees, and most of the plant is intact. The Lima Tank Plant consists of several large buildings, one house and assembly line, one administration building, and one housing a subsidiary foundry. There is also a large parking lot to the rear to house vehicles until they were shipped out, and a railroad spur to ship vehicles out.

The 30 M1's reported at Lima turned out to be 3 operational M1's, and only one tank has complete armament. The tanks are parked out back and the buildings have hardly been touched by vandals. The tools and dies are intact and could be more valuable than the tanks, as they could be used to make more tanks. The tank plant is guarded by the Lima Constabulary. They have an observation post on a water tower, and maintain two foot patrols of four men out at any one time. The groups has 2 half a kilometre radios and no heavy equipment other than a few tear gas grenades.


A Little Recon Mission (by Paul T. Riegel)

This article concerns a CivGov mission to investigate reports of MilGov units from Wright-Patterson AFB who have been popping up all over south-western Ohio. They have been making friendly gestures to all groups they meet and seem to be looking for something. What they are looking for is a dud Soviet MIRV nuclear warhead that came down somewhere near Catlettsburg Kentucky, just across the Ohio River from Ironton.

Ohio

Information is the same as from the Lima Incident, with additional information about other communities in Ohio.

Dayton, Kettering and Xenla Camps: These are surviving towns and refugee camps that have become overcrowded, and shortages have become a major problem. The towns trade with Middleton and Wright-Patterson AFB, and many of the pre-war local residents are fed up with the refugee problem and have expressed a desire to join up with MilGov. CivGov has 55 trained soldiers, 100 full-time militia and 200 part-time militia.

London, Springfield and Urbana Camps: These are refugee camps near the small towns of London, Springfield and Urbana. They are organised and among the most productive in Ohio, and they are major suppliers of food to Wright-Patterson AFB. The camps are overcrowded, but not excessively so, and the communities have established their own militia from former soldiers and policemen. The area is guarded by 30 trained soldiers, 100 full-time militia and 150 part-time militia.

Middleton: The town was overrun with refugees from Cincinnati and Dayton during the bomb scares. The 1416th Transportation Company of the Ohio National Guard was stationed in Middleton and quickly took charge, and without state aid established housing, farms and fortifications for the population. Since then the inhabitants of Middleton are very local to the 1416th Transportation Company which has stopped taking orders from the state government. The 1416th Transportation Company has 40 trained soldiers and 6 M151 jeeps with 3 M60 MG's.

New Richmond: This community was located at the site of a federal nuclear weapons plant, which has been shut down. The small community is guarded by the 2nd Battalion, 1st Military Police Group OMR who have established extensive defences to prevent marauders from stealing important equipment from the facility. There are 55 trained soldiers with 8 M60 MG's guarding New Richmond.

Oxford: This former college town is occupied by the renegade 54th Rear Operational Centre, who broke from state control and turned to raiding in the states of Ohio and Indiana. There are 45 trained soldiers and 60 local recruits with 6 M151 jeeps and 4 M60 MG's.

Richmond, Indiana: The small city of Richmond falls under this area due to the presence of MilGov forces in the city that border the state of Ohio. The MilGov force in Richmond is A Company, 194th Armored Brigade that was dispatched from Cairo, Illinois to support the military government in the state of Indiana. The unit has 60 trained soldiers, with 5 M1 tanks and 6 HMMWV''s. They have several border clashes with the 1st Military Police Group OMR in New Richmond.

Troy, Piqua, Sidney and Wapakoneta: These small communities were ignored for the most part by the state government, and have banded together to fend of marauders. They support the state government with food supplies, and in return get advisors and material. They have 45 trained soldiers and another 220 part-time militia, but their patrols have become easy prey for marauders.

Wright-Patterson AFB: Wright-Patterson airbase (known as WP) is located near Dayton, and is a USAF facility under MilGov control. Before the war WP was a major USAF base with two runways, It has since grown to incorporate the small town of Fairborn which is located beside the airbase. By 2000 Wright Field has ceased to function as a viable airfield, as its runway is overgrown and cracked due to lack of maintenance, and the electronics and equipment have been transferred to Patterson Field which is still functional. The grass areas have been converted to small farms to grow vegetables and fruit, and raise a small herd of cattle, hogs and chickens. Some of the hangers designed to house B-52 bombers have been converted to housing, except for Hanger 18 which is still classified, closed and guarded. Wright Field's base hospital is still open. Challenge Magazine doesn't state if any aircraft are still present at WP, but it is likely that a few still are. WP is also now the most heavily defended military base in Ohio. The enclave's defences are organised into three sections.

(1) Outer Ring: The outer ring encompasses the entirety of the base and the town of Fairborn, and consists of a number of guard posts along the roads and outpost bunkers, which are mostly monitoring stations for electronic surveillance systems. The outpost bunkers are log covered trenches with facilities for four men, with guards divided into two shifts. At all times one guard watches a TV monitor, and another guard scans the area with binoculars or with IR goggles at night.

Each bunker is equipped with a Geiger counter, 4 gas masks, a radio, 4 M16A2rifles, 1 M203 grenade launcher with 4 rounds, and 7 hand grenades. All the roads entering the perimeter have roadblock bunkers, with field-expediant concertina wire stretching across the road and sand bagged bunkers on either side of the road. Each roadblock bunkers has a bipod mounted M16A2, an M72 LAW, an M203 grenade launcher with 4 rounds, a 5 kilometre radio, gas masks and chemical suits. Two guards man each roadblock bunker and are armed with MP-5 or M231 sub-machine guns.

2) Second Ring: Perimeter bunkers are located every 1,500-2,000 metres, equipped the same as outpost bunkers with the addition of a starlight scope or a thermal imaging scope and a battery-powered white light-spotlight. The two entrances to the base are covered by a single roadblock bunker similar to those on the outer roads with the same armament and equipment. They also have an M60 machine gun in place of the bipod mounted M16A2, 4 additional grenades, and a night scope and starlight scope for the M60. Each entrance also has an M880 truck, an M35 truck and a HMMWV. Located 1,000 metres behind the main entrance is a supporting bunker which houses an M47 Dragon anti-tank missile with 4 reloads, and an M40 sniper rifle with night vision scope.

3) Inner Ring: WP inner ring defence is a rapid reaction force. The inner defence is centred around two ground surveillance radar systems, one covering each airfield. Four man or two man/two dog teams patrol inside the perimeter. An emergency response team consists of two Peacekeeper armored cars with Mark 19 auto-grenade launchers, 15 airforce security police and 35 local recruits.

Behind the base defences are the airfield control/ operations building, base headquarters and hangers and a few other buildings. The airfield control building and base headquarters are heavily guarded. Both building have 2 M60 machine guns and 1 M2HB heavy machine gun in sand bagged emplacements. There are more vehicles parked near the base headquarters, a mixture of Peacekeepers, M880's, M35's and HMMWV. The base headquarters houses the armory which is well stocked and includes a number of Stinger SAM missiles among other interesting items. The article doesn't state if any avgas is stored at WP or how many personnel are at the base, but it is likely that about 200 airforce personnel and at least the same number of local recruits are at WP.

The CivGov team is tasked with penetrating the base and discover what MilGov is up to at WP. This will be a tough assignment due to the strength of the defences at the airbase. If the team manage to infiltrate the airbase they will discover that the WP enclave is not recruiting for MilGov, but conducting a radiation survey. WP is acting on information transmitted from NORAD during the nuclear exchanges, about a Soviet warhead that came down without impacting in Kentucky just across the Ohio River, or in Ironton on the Ohio River. To this end WP dispatched the 477th Nuclear Emergency Response Team to conduct a recovery mission, with an M35 and M880 truck, and an armed HMMWV. The 477th was ambushed by marauders and only one member survived. The CivGov team may encounter the survivor before it reaches WP, and in either case will inform CivGov in Columbus that are assisting in the recovery of the nuclear warhead as neither CivGov or MilGov will want in to fall into hostile or non-government hands. If the team recover the warhead they will likely take it back to WP, as it is known that a few members of CivGov in Columbus are friendly with a New America cell in Ohio.

[mcchordsage]

Interesting to see the 54th RAOC mentioned! There were 14 others in the National Guard and five in the USAR. An interesting unit type intended to manage rear area security for a Corps, mixed MP, transportation, and medical companies under one HQ.

[Olefin]

Got to love this one

"Marysville, Bellfontaine and Kenton Camps: These refugee camps located near the small towns of Marysville, Bellfontaine and Kenton were among the last established, and have been abandoned by the state and are controlled by their own militia and surviving police forces. They have 15 military trained men, 70 full-time militia and 125 part-time mailmen. They also have 4 M35 trucks and 5M151 jeeps"

I lived in Marysville Ohio from 1995-2000 and it left out several important facts - it had a woman's prison that would have been very easy to fortify and use as a base. It had the biggest Honda plants in North America and a Scots fertilizer plant - both of which would literally have been gold mines for spare parts, electronics, stuff to make explosives, etc.. And the town had a lot of people in it who had guns and knew how to use them. If you want to write an article you might want to at least be accurate. Very obvious wasnt written by someone who knew anything about Ohio. Just the Honda plant alone could provide enough spare parts, tires, vehicles, motorcycles, machine tools, welding equipment, etc. to keep any military unit going for years. We didnt have just in time, we had enough spare parts on hand for production for several weeks to several months depending on where we were getting them from. And I was a Honda design engineer at the time so I was very familiar with what we had as to material on hand and what resources the plants had - all three of them (two auto plants, a prototype/design plant and a motorcycle plant)

Especially with the "the largest camp is in the Dublin-Hilliard corridor to the northwest" - well good luck feeding those people since the closest area that actually grew crops was Marysville and the towns around it - so if you abandon Marysville you basically have nothing to feed them with - there was very little agriculture in the Dublin - Hilliard area - so that is a perfect example of a great article that had no actual basis in reality

Thus the state abandoning an area full of farms and AG equipment and spare parts up the ying yang - answer - NO

Oh and I forgot - Marysville has one of the oldest National Guard Armory buildings in the state - thus 15 trained military is grossly underestimating the numbers that would be there

And that is where I would have been for the TDM - sitting at my house in Marysville Ohio with my whole family

[Olefin]

as for Marc's advise to what he gave us for new material - I can post it here verbatim if you like - as he told us if we referenced it then it could become canon - otherwise unless Loren or one of the other canon writers wrote it it was considered apocrypha

[RN7]

Olefin's going to love this one!

This article is about what happened to the US and Soviet space shuttles and space stations during the Twilight War.

Falling Fragments of a Dream (by David S.F. Portree)

Soviet Hardware

Mir Complex: The Mir Complex was abandoned in 1999 after the nuking of the Baikonur Cosmodrome, the Soviet Union's manned spaceflight centre. The six cosmonauts aboard Mir could expect neither fresh supplies or relief, so they closed down systems and fled the complex. Three of them returned safely to Earth in the descent module Soyuz TM-22 spacecraft which had been docked at the station. The remaining three cosmonauts cobbled together makeshift couches in the descent module of the Progress PM-9 cargo craft attached to the rear port of Mir. Progress PM-9 was designed to only carry manufactured parts and not crews. American radars tracked it to a landing in the mountains of Tibet. The faith of the three crewmen is unknown. When abandoned Mir massed about 150 tons. Despite the presence of ASAT weaponry, the Americans did not use ASAT against it because they feared Mir's destruction would fill near-Earth space with thousands of pieces of debris, which would interfere with the already faltering American network of surveillance and communications satellites in orbit. In May 2005, the Mir Station Complex will re-enter the Earth's atmosphere, During Mir's last days the best forecasters (all seven of them still alive) can only say that it will come down over Europe.

Buran Space Shuttle: The Buran was launched days before Baikonur was destroyed. Its objective was unknown but it may have been launched to rescue the cosmonauts aboard Mir, or to recover the Kvant-3 materials (usable in Soviet military hardware on the ground), or simply just to get it clear of Baikonur which was a tempting nuclear target. Buran represented the pinnacle of Soviet technology, and contained components that could be used as examples in how to rebuild Soviet technology. Buran was intercepted shortly after its launch by an American ASAT and crippled. It is expected to re-enter Earth's atmosphere over North Africa in September 2004.

Rumours are rife that both Mir and Buran carried radioactive, chemical or biological toxins, or even conventional or nuclear explosives. This is mostly hysterical rumour, however in the case of biological toxins it is based on fact. The Kvant-3 materials science module which docked in 1990, was detached from Mir in 1998 to make way for a new secret module set for a 1999 launch. Kvant-3 was to be recovered by an automated Buran, and then to land in a remote airstrip in Siberia which was normally on stand-by for aborted launches. The secret module was to be docked with Mir, and was designed to produce highly toxic viral bioagents which can only be made in space. Soviet research into a new generation of such toxins began with the deterioration of international relations in the 1990's, and the civilian Mir station had become increasingly devoted to military research. In preparation for the arrival of the new module Mir's crew had been boosted to six, even though three had no emergency escape craft. Soviet cutbacks during Perestroika had effected the manned space programme, and the 10 seat Buran was not yet ready to being kept at Mir. The Buran was infact planned to service the planned Mir 2 station that could house up to 50 cosmonauts. Economic pressure delayed the big station and it was eventually cancelled. The bioagent module was delayed so the Soviet launched the unmanned Progress PM-9 cargo craft with supplies and equipment to begin interim production. Its descent module was meant to return to Earth with sealed containers of reactive bioagent toxins. But Baikonur was destroyed, the cosmonauts fled Mir and there was no room for the containers. The bioagents are believed to be still onboard Mir, and will fall to Earth in 2005 and hopefully be incinerated when Mir burns up.

American Hardware

The American Hubble Space Telescope launched in 1990 fell to Earth in 2004. Fragments of its mirrors landed in the Yucatan, and were collected and displayed in local shrines for decades. Some were carved into mythical crucifixes.

The first elements of the American Freedom Space Station were placed in orbit aboard two space shuttle flights in 1997. They were destroyed by Soviet ASAT in 1999, and re-entered Earth piecemeal between 2001 and 2007. For decades after any meteor shower over North America was known as the "fires of freedom".

The American space shuttle fleet was grounded after the destruction of Atlantis in 1998. Atlantis suffered a main engine explosion minutes after lift off and was forced to ditch in the Atlantic Ocean. Newspaper headlines spoke of "the sinking of Atlantis", but due to the shuttle fleet being grounded no manned space station elements ever reached orbit for the Freedom Station. The nuclear strikes on the Kennedy Space Centre led to the destruction of Endeavour and Discovery. However Columbus survived. It had been launched before Atlantis went down on a mission to put a KH-18 surveillance satellite into orbit, and was then forced to make an emergency landing after colliding with space debris at Banjul, Gambia in Africa were it was stranded throughout the war. No mention of Enterprise, which means it was probably never made flight worthy.

[mcchordsage]

In case anyone was wondering what the RAOC was "supposed" to have in terms of equipment and personnel. FM 100-15 covers how they're supposed to work in Appendix B and C.

Couple were activated for the Gulf War from what I remember reading.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by RN7

Olefin's going to love this one!

This article is about what happened to the US and Soviet space shuttles and space stations during the Twilight War.

Falling Fragments of a Dream (by David S.F. Portree)

Soviet Hardware

Mir Complex: The Mir Complex was abandoned in 1999 after the nuking of the Baikonur Cosmodrome, the Soviet Union's manned spaceflight centre. The six cosmonauts aboard Mir could expect neither fresh supplies or relief, so they closed down systems and fled the complex. Three of them returned safely to Earth in the descent module Soyuz TM-22 spacecraft which had been docked at the station. The remaining three cosmonauts cobbled together makeshift couches in the descent module of the Progress PM-9 cargo craft attached to the rear port of Mir. Progress PM-9 was designed to only carry manufactured parts and not crews. American radars tracked it to a landing in the mountains of Tibet. The faith of the three crewmen is unknown. When abandoned Mir massed about 150 tons. Despite the presence of ASAT weaponry, the Americans did not use ASAT against it because they feared Mir's destruction would fill near-Earth space with thousands of pieces of debris, which would interfere with the already faltering American network of surveillance and communications satellites in orbit. In May 2005, the Mir Station Complex will re-enter the Earth's atmosphere, During Mir's last days the best forecasters (all seven of them still alive) can only say that it will come down over Europe.

Buran Space Shuttle: The Buran was launched days before Baikonur was destroyed. Its objective was unknown but it may have been launched to rescue the cosmonauts aboard Mir, or to recover the Kvant-3 materials (usable in Soviet military hardware on the ground), or simply just to get it clear of Baikonur which was a tempting nuclear target. Buran represented the pinnacle of Soviet technology, and contained components that could be used as examples in how to rebuild Soviet technology. Buran was intercepted shortly after its launch by an American ASAT and crippled. It is expected to re-enter Earth's atmosphere over North Africa in September 2004.

Rumours are rife that both Mir and Buran carried radioactive, chemical or biological toxins, or even conventional or nuclear explosives. This is mostly hysterical rumour, however in the case of biological toxins it is based on fact. The Kvant-3 materials science module which docked in 1990, was detached from Mir in 1998 to make way for a new secret module set for a 1999 launch. Kvant-3 was to be recovered by an automated Buran, and then to land in a remote airstrip in Siberia which was normally on stand-by for aborted launches. The secret module was to be docked with Mir, and was designed to produce highly toxic viral bioagents which can only be made in space. Soviet research into a new generation of such toxins began with the deterioration of international relations in the 1990's, and the civilian Mir station had become increasingly devoted to military research. In preparation for the arrival of the new module Mir's crew had been boosted to six, even though three had no emergency escape craft. Soviet cutbacks during Perestroika had effected the manned space programme, and the 10 seat Buran was not yet ready to being kept at Mir. The Buran was infact planned to service the planned Mir 2 station that could house up to 50 cosmonauts. Economic pressure delayed the big station and it was eventually cancelled. The bioagent module was delayed so the Soviet launched the unmanned Progress PM-9 cargo craft with supplies and equipment to begin interim production. Its descent module was meant to return to Earth with sealed containers of reactive bioagent toxins. But Baikonur was destroyed, the cosmonauts fled Mir and there was no room for the containers. The bioagents are believed to be still onboard Mir, and will fall to Earth in 2005 and hopefully be incinerated when Mir burns up.

American Hardware

The American Hubble Space Telescope launched in 1990 fell to Earth in 2004. Fragments of its mirrors landed in the Yucatan, and were collected and displayed in local shrines for decades. Some were carved into mythical crucifixes.

The first elements of the American Freedom Space Station were placed in orbit aboard two space shuttle flights in 1997. They were destroyed by Soviet ASAT in 1999, and re-entered Earth piecemeal between 2001 and 2007. For decades after any meteor shower over North America was known as the "fires of freedom".

The American space shuttle fleet was grounded after the destruction of Atlantis in 1998. Atlantis suffered a main engine explosion minutes after lift off and was forced to ditch in the Atlantic Ocean. Newspaper headlines spoke of "the sinking of Atlantis", but due to the shuttle fleet being grounded no manned space station elements ever reached orbit for the Freedom Station. The nuclear strikes on the Kennedy Space Centre led to the destruction of Endeavour and Discovery. However Columbus survived. It had been launched before Atlantis went down on a mission to put a KH-18 surveillance satellite into orbit, and was then forced to make an emergency landing after colliding with space debris at Banjul, Gambia in Africa were it was stranded throughout the war. No mention of Enterprise, which means it was probably never made flight worthy.

Considering I was a Space Shuttle engineer yes I am interested. I still remember when Columbia went down - I was responsible for wiring the wings and when they reported how those sensors went down I immediately knew it had to be a burn thru even before they reported that as being the cause.

Got to love it - Columbus survived - you mean they got the name of the original Space Shuttle wrong?

Question - is this article from the V1 era or the V2?

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Got to love it - Columbus survived - you mean they got the name of the original Space Shuttle wrong?

Question - is this article from the V1 era or the V2?

I suppose its a alternative timeline fit that leads to Columbus surviving. I don't really know if its V1 or V2.

[Olefin]

Thats Columbia not Columbus FYI

And Enterprise could never have been refit to have flown in space - it would have had to have been rebuilt almost completely

It was an atmospheric test vehicle not space capable

FYI The loss of Atlantis is incorrect by the way - the loss of one engine would not have caused them to ditch it in the Atlantic - loss of one engine during ascent means you have to abort to an alternate landing site not ditch - the person who wrote the article obviously didnt know the protocols for the Shuttle

Also given the US and Soviets continuing to have the space race Freedom would have most likely been manned and operational for sure by the war start - it was only delayed as it was due to the Cold War winding down - if that stays hot then Freedom is up there and manned - maybe not fully completed but manned for sure - if anything the start of the war with China would have definitely made them rush deployment just to get continual manned resources there

and a continuing Cold War means that they dont mothball the Vandenberg facility - and you are looking at a new shuttle as well - the only reason we cancelled the follow on to Endeavour was due to cost savings after the Cold War ended - so a V2 timeline would have no shuttles from Vandenberg and no new shuttle

V1 would have had at least one new shuttle and launches from Vandenberg

FYI all one engine failure modes (and even two engine failure modes) past Challenger lead to landing on a runway somewhere - the only ocean ditching option would have involved a failure with the strap on rockets and an engine or the shuttle being too damaged during orbit to successfully deploy its landing gear - thus the whole article should be treated as Apocrypha - and you cant have the shuttle damaged by sabotage - not after Challenger - it was checked way too much for that

But you cant really fault the author - have a feeling GDW didnt have someone who was an actual Rockwell Downey or NASA space shuttle engineer working for them

[Raellus]

Hey guys,

Although they've all been cited, I'm not sure whether it's kosher to post long chunks of text from Challenge Magazine articles. It might be overstepping fair use and copyright rules. Let's err on the side of caution and refrain.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Hey guys,

Although they've all been cited, I'm not sure whether it's kosher to post long chunks of text from Challenge Magazine articles. It might be overstepping fair use and copyright rules. Let's err on the side of caution and refrain.

Much better to just cite the area involved and what issue it is (i.e. issue 58, article title, and maybe a certain small part but not the majority of the article)

would that fit the guidelines fro the site?

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Hey guys,

Although they've all been cited, I'm not sure whether it's kosher to post long chunks of text from Challenge Magazine articles. It might be overstepping fair use and copyright rules. Let's err on the side of caution and refrain.

I thought about that but I haven't actually copied the articles. ie as in copy and paste as they are on PDF files and it does not let you do that.

I have typed information based on what I have read in the Challenge Magazine articles, but I have not copied word for word or even followed the paragraph structure as some of the information is not that relevant or is to unwieldy. In the last two articles I have posted I have had to add some of my own words and thoughts to make it better to read.

So basically from now on I am going to post up a list of these articles, name the issue and author and give some limited information about what they are about. If anybody is interested in a particular article then I will type up some information.