Programs that exist in your T2kU!

[chico20854]

Paul got me thinking:

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

As for certain pet projects that were given some extra funds and development in T2K -- we've all done that.

What are your favorite projects/systems that died (or were slowed down dramatically) in the post-Cold War drawdowns and never saw the light of day or arrived decades later, that for game purposes you "pencil in" as operable during the war?

Some of mine:

Reactivation of the Salem-class cruisers.
C-17 transport aircraft schedule accelerated.
Midgetman missile.
LAV-75/M8 AGS.
AKMR rifle.
Light Motorized division, FAVs in Light Infantry Division and the Light Armored Cav Regiment
SU-130

(and the opposite, things that were kept in service longer than reality:
the 600-ship Navy, with many of the older classes of frigates, destroyers and the Midway-class carriers still in service
M-48A5s, T-34/85s, SU-100s and SU-76s in NATO and Pact service, respectively)

What are yours????

[Homer]

A few that pop up off the top of my head:

LOSAT goes into series production
FOG-M
Follow on to TOW (Fire and Forget)

F-4E retirement continues, but F-4G stays on. Maybe more F-4Gs get converted or produced (Desert Storm required the bulk of the F-4G fleet to support operations)
A-10s receive NVG compatibility and limited night ops capability earlier than otl
B-1B force remains nuclear tasked or dual tasked regular Air Force asset

USAR retains combat arms units, especially the USAR SF units
Grizzly CEV produced
M1014 Wolverine produced earlier and on 1:1 replacement for M60 AVLB
M88A2 replaced M88 and M88A1 at 1:1

USCG retains ASW role with upgrade of Hamilton class cutters continuing during FRAM. Famous class and reliance class cutters continue to be fitted “for but not with”
P-3 Orion replacement/upgrade continues on earlier trajectory with P-7 acquisition

[pmulcahy11b]

I agree with the previous posts, and:

The EA-6B is retained, and the A-6F is in service.

The A-7F is in service, not just with the US, but with some other NATO countries (I haven't decided which yet).

Several of the M48/AAA versions I details in my Best AAA That Never Were are in action, and proliferated all over the world amongst countries with retired M48s or countries looking for a cheap mobile SAM/AAA solution.

The F-16F SCAMP is in service, re-christened the Super Scamp, and was in fact the aircraft flown by the Twilight War's highest scoring ace.

The X-29 and X-31s were developed into operational air superiority fighters, designated F-29 Asp and F-31 Wildcat II.

I'll try to come up with more.

[shrike6]

US
M8 AGS
A-12 in limited quantities
A-6F/G
Motorized Division and Light Armored Cavalry Regiment
RAH-66 in limited quantities
reactivation of the Des Moines Class Cruisers
reactivation of many ships of NDRF
Ground Launched Hellfire vehicle in limited quantities

USSR
Ulyanovsk CVN
Varyag CV
YAK-41
AKMR


West German
MBB Lampyridae in limited quantities
G11

Brazil
EE-T1 and T2


Those are the ones that come to mind. If I think of more I'll post more.

[pmulcahy11b]

All this shows me that I have been really remiss in adding the line, "Twilight 2000 Notes" to my entries.

[pmulcahy11b]

Stealthhawk in limited numbers,

M29 OICW in small numbers; M25 Punisher in much larger numbers.

MV-22 and CV-22 in small numbers

MV-22B Pave Hammer in very small numbers

Airwolf available in really small numbers (they are more rumors about the Airwolf than anything else, and even some four-stars don't know the truth...)

[Matt Wiser]

My choices:

A-6F
A-10B (N/AW)
600-ship Navy
M-8 AGS
M-1 ADGS
V-22 fully funded for USMC, USAF, and USN (SV-22)
GDLS M120S (M-60 hull with M-1 turret, either 105 or 120-mm)
Full purchase of B-2 at 132 aircraft
MGM-134 Midgetman ICBM
SRAM II for SAC bombers
SRAM-T for F-15Es
F-15E fully replaces the F-111 force, with the Es and Fs going to the ANG.

Women in combat arms beginning after the Gulf War (Which happens in my T2K universe).

[Raellus]

+1 re the A-7F Strikefighter. Tegyrius and I included it in the Romania Sourcebook (he even stat'ed it for v2.2).

I was very partial to the F-16XL as a kid. I know that IRL the F-15E Strike Eagle won the Enhanced Tactical Fighter competition, but there's got to be a justification for including the Delta-winged Falcon in T2k, right?

-

[Vespers War]

M2 Bradley ADATS enters service.
Peacekeeper Rail Garrison takes effect so that some ground-based nuclear missiles aren't siloed.

If the M29 and M25 are deployed, the M8 rifle family and M307 25mm machine gun should probably also be added, since they were derived from those programs.

Lots of 9th ID HTTD stuff:

M8 AGS
Ground Launched Hellfire
Mercury Green Follow On UAV
Pedestal Stinger

Also:

G11
HK CAWS

And:

HAMS Suit
Resist Weave
Autonav...

Opps.. Wrong Game thread!

[stilleto69]

Some of mine are:

US Navy:
6 additional SSBN-726s
12 SSN-21s in service
CVN-74 in service
CVN-75 launched just before TDM.
4 additional CG-47s
26 additional DDG-51s (DDG-70 - DDG-94)
9 additional FFG-7 (FFG-62 - FFG-70)

A-12 in limited numbers (Thanks to Chico )
MV-22s

USMC:
Several additional regiments stood up and assigned to 5th & 6th MARDIVs

US Army:
Several additional Brigades stood up thru the use of the National Defense Service Act.
RAH-66s are in limited service (Thanks Paul)


USAF:
Several F-20A Air National Guard squadrons
Several AT-38 squadrons in the Southwest AOR
F-29s & F-31s are in several squadrons
F-16F SCAMPs in 1 squadron (again thanks Paul)
F-22s & F-23s are in 1 squadron each.
MGM-134A exists in 3 squadrons
Rail-mounted Minuteman III & Peacekeeper missiles in 3 squadrons.
CV-22s fielded by units in the Southwest.
Also I have the R-5D Aurora flying in a squadron (once more thanks to Paul).

[pmulcahy11b]

Just one negative -- I don't think the Javelin exists in T2K. The Tankbreaker does -- but the Javelin does not, as the Tankbreaker Program didn't get far enough to produce the Javelin.

[pmulcahy11b]

I have the 4th and 6th Ranger battalions in Europe, and the 5th Ranger battalion in Korea.

[Homer]

A few more-

Stingray laser system fully fielded
Battlefield common fuel program continues, replacing MOGAS and Diesel with JP
Nuclear ATACMS program continues. Replaces Lance in tactical/operational strike role
MLRS/ATACMS binary warhead program continues

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Just one negative -- I don't think the Javelin exists in T2K. The Tankbreaker does -- but the Javelin does not, as the Tankbreaker Program didn't get far enough to produce the Javelin.

Both the Javelin and the Predator SRAW (which would be adopted by the Marines during the Global War On Terror) made it to the field by 1996.

The Javelin beat out the Predator because it had a better sight, longer range, and better warhead.

The Predator REQUIRES a missile to be loaded in order to use the CLU's Thermal imager (because it actually "sees" through the warhead's thermal optic) for recon, unlike the Javelin. The Predator is MUCH FASTER (like 1,000m per second) but only has a range of just about 1km. It is also cheaper.

Both systems could appear in Twilight2000.

[swaghauler]

One might also see the proposed fiber-optic upgrade of wire-guided missiles. These have resistance to the elements and the missiles can be much faster (up to 400m/sec) than the older missiles would be.

[mpipes]

I have so many......

F-20A
F-111A refurbishment program and all assigned to a wing based in Sweden
USS Truman and USS Reagan in service
BB museum ships renter service...USS Texas (not realistic but I wanted her active), USS Alabama, and USS North Carolina in limited service by early 2001.
USS Essex Class - USS Oriskany, USS Bennington, USS Bon Homme Richard, USS Hornet, USS Lexington, USS Yorktown, and USS Intrepid.
Surviving Permit and Skate SSN classes
F-16F
All surviving F-4 airframes
T-34/85s
SU-100s and SU-130s
M3A4s
Additional Ticonderoga class CGs
Additional Arleigh Burke class DDGs
USS Midway and Coral Sea
MiG-17s and -19s
T-90, T-93, T-95
M1A3 (essentially the M11A2 SEP), M1A4 Giraffe, M1A5 (140mm M1A3)
German G36 in service
British L-85 largely out of service
British Corsair MBT - similar to M1A4 Giraffe
Leopard III
Both Tankbreaker and Javelin ATGMs
Heritage Aircraft Manufacturing Corp built F-4Us, P-47s, P-38s, P-51s, FW190s, A6M Zeros, etc
B-2s in service
B-1B production line re-established
F-19As armed with SRAMIIs
More F-117s
M-60A4 (essentially M-60A3 with ERA)
M-47s with ERA
F-29As and F-31s
LAHAT ATGM
Typhoons (VERY few)
British Polaris SLBMs and boomers re-enter service
LAV-75s
Greatly expanded SOF - Ranger Bns, SEALs, Green Berets, Delta, Spetsnaz, German KSK, German Marines, SAS, SBS, Commandos, Danish Marines, etc
Many more Divisions raised all around - US, British, Germans, Danes, Soviets, Japanese, Filipinos, etc.
Surviving B-52 airframes (B-52D/E/F/G)
AN-95 in limited service
M-41 Walker Bulldogs upgraded and in service
M-60A2 about 50 to 100 in service
M-8 AGS
M-10 Expeditionary Tank
LAV-105
C-17As
Su-35
MiG-35 Falroth
MiG-21-93
Mirage 4000

And there is more!!!

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I have the 4th and 6th Ranger battalions in Europe, and the 5th Ranger battalion in Korea.

I think this is an eminently reasonable way to allow players to run Rangers in theatres other than Iran, and have stolen it for my current campaign.

I've been slowly trickling non-standard small arms into my current campaign as rewards for those players who appreciate such things. The party's machinegunner is currently carrying a cut-down Saiga 12K as his backup CQB weapon. The team also recently captured a number of lightly-used wz.89 Onyx carbines from Radom ZOMO officers, but I don't know if anyone will pick one up.

Amazingly, it doesn't look like we've had much discussion of the Colt SCAMP on the forum. My search for it actually brought me here based on Paul's mention upthread of the F-16XL SCAMP program. In my T2kU, it saw limited production as a U.S. and Canadian aircrew survival weapon. It's on the list of things I eventually want to put in my players' hands, along with the FN P90. Ammo will be a problem for both, but the tech crew among the PCs and their attached NPCs is slowly working on building a reloading shop.

- C.

[castlebravo92]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Both the Javelin and the Predator SRAW (which would be adopted by the Marines during the Global War On Terror) made it to the field by 1996.

The Javelin beat out the Predator because it had a better sight, longer range, and better warhead.

The Predator REQUIRES a missile to be loaded in order to use the CLU's Thermal imager (because it actually "sees" through the warhead's thermal optic) for recon, unlike the Javelin. The Predator is MUCH FASTER (like 1,000m per second) but only has a range of just about 1km. It is also cheaper.

Both systems could appear in Twilight2000.

I always assumed the "Tank Breaker" was just a Javelin by another name.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by castlebravo92

I always assumed the "Tank Breaker" was just a Javelin by another name.

DARPA's published history agrees with you: https://www.darpa.mil/about-us/timeline/tank-breaker

I can't find the reference at the moment, but I seem to recall GDW also hypothesizing that the then-proposed Assault Breaker concept would play a role in the Sino-Soviet War.

https://www.darpa.mil/about-us/timeline/assault-breaker
https://warontherocks.com/2014/11/th...ta-revolution/

- C.

[Raellus]

It was my understanding as well that Tankbreaker was what the v1 creators called what would become the Javelin ATGM IRL. As a Ref, at least, they are one-in-the-same in my T2kU.

IRL, recent reports suggest that a Javelin ATGM achieved its first aerial kill- a Kamov K-52- in Ukraine. The source of the reports is Ukrainian and, AFAIK, there's been no independent confirmation, but the Javelin was designed with that capability in mind. Other ATGM systems have achieved confirmed aerial kills v. helicopters (a TOW II downed a Gazelle in Syria, and a Stugna-P killed a KA-52 in Ukraine).

...

One thing I really liked about T2k as a kid were the speculative weapon systems, especially vehicles. The writers got more wrong (LAV-75, Diana SPAAG, turretless M1A2) than they got right, but it was fun to think about what weapon systems lay just over the temporal horizon. I understand why 4e didn't include any speculative systems (unlike the v1 creators, they didn't have to project forward), but it was a little disappointing to not see any "legacy" or new speculative systems. I would have appreciated it if they'd included something like the LAV-75 as fan service.

If this topic is of particular interest to you, the linked thread focuses on small arms programs that may or may not have gotten off the ground prior to/during the Twilight War:

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....pons+timelines

-

[castlebravo92]

Originally Posted by Raellus

<snip>

One thing I really liked about T2k as a kid were the speculative weapon systems, especially vehicles. The writers got more wrong (LAV-75, Diana SPAAG, turretless M1A2) than they got right, but it was fun to think about what weapon systems lay just over the temporal horizon.

I thought GDW got a lot of stuff "right" and made some pretty good guesses, especially pre-internet age.

Who would have thought that, almost 40 years later, that US ground forces still wouldn't have an effective standardized air defense system other than the Patriot and the USAF!

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I have the 4th and 6th Ranger battalions in Europe, and the 5th Ranger battalion in Korea.

I didn't like having 3 battalions together in Iran, so I sent 1 battalion there, 1 to Europe, 1 to Korea, then raised one more for each field army, numbered same as the army, mostly.
4th = Fourth Army in Germany
5th, 6th, 9th for the small armies in the US.

Recognizing that most of these would be "homegrown" from any Ranger School graduates on hand and a makeshift training program.

[ToughOmbres]

Originally Posted by castlebravo92

I thought GDW got a lot of stuff "right" and made some pretty good guesses, especially pre-internet age.

Who would have thought that, almost 40 years later, that US ground forces still wouldn't have an effective standardized air defense system other than the Patriot and the USAF!

I agree. GDW did quite well in my view-speculative fiction just that-speculative. Not perfect but very good.

Does anyone have the Viper in their campaigns or the Copperhead?

[Homer]

I think AT4 (M136) probably killed Viper’s future as a system, especially after combat performance in Panama and ODS. Congress was so fed up with viper that the program was substantially defunded in the early 80s and trials reopened resulting in AT4 procurement. If you do want to introduce an M72/M136 alternative, the SMAW/B300 saw limited use in the US Army and was type standardized in the USMC. The Armbrust was also well regarded in tests and available for purchase, but the lethality is closer to the M72 than the M136.

The copperhead could be there in a campaign, but they’re definitely not the most rugged munition, requiring special handling. But it’s big at 137lbs. If you want to introduce it you will need the following, in addition to standard FA items-
1. NATO standard 155mm tube (M198, M109, M114, FH70, etc.)
2. Missile test set, cased M712 round, G/VLDD or other laser designator
3. Met data for engagement area, especially cloud base height

Copperhead shoots are normally computed in advance because of the designation, weather, and trajectory requirements. The round has a pre-determined trajectory and “footprint” it is shot into to be able to acquire the laser designation and maneuver to the target. The round is set to a three digit Pulse Repetition Frequency (PRF) that the observer also uses. If the cloud base is too low for the round to be able to acquire and track to target after descending through it or no PRF matched designator is available the round will “go stupid” and follow a ballistic trajectory. The key safety requirement is to ensure the designator is with 45 degrees left or right of the gun-target line (angle t) to prevent acquisition of the designator by the round rather than the target spot.

A few ideas to introduce copperhead into a campaign:
1. PCs are tasked to lase, or escort an observer into position to lase for a copperhead shoot at a high payoff point target (SSM system, radar, etc).
2. PCs must conduct a patrol to secure an abandoned Field Ammo Supply Point with a supply of copperheads needed to support an upcoming operation. Just for fun, you could make the PCs hump or pack animal the rounds out!
3. PCs receive copperhead support or be facilitated by a copperhead mission. This could be through a third party (thinking of the SASR team in “How do you say g’day in Polish”) who happens to be lasing an HPT for an unrelated mission.
4. Krasnopol (RU copperhead equivalent in 152mm) is used against the PCs or recovered by the PCs from a cache/vehicle. Insignificant on its own, but valuable combat information if part of an organized force.

Hope this helps.