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Old 11-26-2009, 05:37 PM
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Default Ireland/Northern Ireland Timeline

A while back I wanted to do a campaign set in Ireland/Northern Ireland. So did some research: here is what I came up with for the Time-line:

Background 1990-1997 — The Irish Republican Army (IRA) was very active in Ireland in years leading up to Twilight; placing moles in two key places: Garda’s Special Branch, and the Royal Ulster Constabulary’s Special Branch. With those moles in place, the IRA was aware of British/Irish counter-terrorist efforts to detect, capture, and arrest IRA members. Moreover, Sinn Féin was elected to the Oireachtas (legislature of Ireland) and by 1997 had passed Fine Gael - The United Ireland Party; as the second largest party in Ireland. The IRA also became very active with the smuggling and stashing of arms caches in Ireland.

October 15 1997 — The IRA takes and holds the towns of Petigoe, Belleek, Belcoo, and Keady, with no regular army units available, the brunt of the offensive falls to the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) and the Army’s Home Defence Unit; the Ulster Defence Regiment.

October 25 1997 — The British offensive against the IRA begins with a with a helicopters assault on Petigoe. During the assault; five Chinook helicopters are shot down by the IRA; with SAM-7 Surface to Air missiles; resulting in the failing of the offensive. The British are forced to band all of their helicopters from combat zone and use armoured transport for the next assault.

October 31 1997 — The British offensive against Petigoe fails again; due to heavy RPG-7 fire by the IRA.

November 1 1997 — The IRA sink the HMS Helford, HMS Blackwater, HMS Itchen, HMS Orwell, and HMS Spey moored HM Naval Base Clyde; with 106mm Cannons mounted on motorboats.

November 2 1997 — Open warfare erupts between the Protestant Ulster Defence Association (UDA) and Catholic IRA in Northern Ireland; fighting begins in the streets of Belfast and Londonderry, and many Catholics and Protestants are killed or forced out in the ensuing violence. In the border counties of Fermanagh and Armagh, the IRA seized control and calls for military support and assistance from Ireland to protect Fermanagh and Armagh from the Protestant forces.

November 3 1997 — Elements of 2 Brigade; Óglaigh na hÉireann (Irish Defence Forces) moved into the border counties; the 2nd Irish Civil War begins.

November 4 1997 — The British Armed Forces destroy the main elements of the Aer Chór na hÉireann (Irish Air Corps) and Seirbh*s Chabhlaigh na hÉireann (Irish Naval Service), leaving Ireland with only an Army to defended itself.

November 26 - December 9 1997 — The Irish Defence Forces enjoyed a number of early successes, taking Enniskillen, Armagh, Newry, and Londonderry.

December 13 1997 — The British form the 36th (Ulster) Defence Division and move it into Fermanagh and Armagh.

December 14 1997 — First British and Irish conscripts arrive in Northern Ireland.

January 21 1998 — The remnants of Irish Naval Service form the Naval Infantry Regiment and remnants of Irish Air Corps forms 5 Independent (Air Force) Battery; anti-aircraft defense.

March 3 1998 — With destruction of Irish Naval Service and elimination of IRA sea threat the remnants British Northern Ireland Squadron are redeployed to Mediterranean.

June 1998 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division goes on the attack and retakes some of its lost border territories except for Londonderry and Armagh.

November 1998 — As winter approached, the war is stalemated as both sides concentrated on feeding their civilian population. At the same time, the IRA began a new campaign of terror in Northern Ireland.

March 1999 — The IRA continues its guerrilla war, despite RUC crackdowns.

Mid-May 1999 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division lays siege Londonderry.

April 1999 — Irish Defence Forces launched a two division attack, but it flounders on the 36th (Ulster) Defence Division defensive line.

May 1999 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division launched its own offensive. The severity of the attack resulted in the Irish Defence Forces being pushed back along the entire front.

June 1999 — Armagh falls to 36th (Ulster) Defence Division.

August 1999 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division drives to outskirts of Ballyshannon, which isolates the Donegal region.

October 1999 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division halts its offensive and secured all of its gains. For all its success, however, the 36th (Ulster) Defence Division could not seize Londonderry, to which it had laid siege to in mid-May.

January 2000 — The year begins with a surprise offensive by the Irish Defence Forces. Conducted in the middle of the worst winter seen in Ireland for many years, it takes the 36th (Ulster) Defence Division totally by surprise and accomplishes its goal re-establishing links with Donegal and breaking the siege of Londonderry.

June 2000 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division launched a two-pronged offensive, with a southern drive towards Dublin and eastern drive into Donegal to isolate Londonderry.

June 7 2000 — The southern drive is halted at Drogheda, while the eastern drive encountered stiff resistance and stalled on the outskirts of Bailyshannon.

September 2000 — As autumn set in, the 36th (Ulster) Defence Division begins the siege of Bailyshannon, which could continue through the winter.

Currently —In Northern Ireland, the troubles continued, and the situation shows no signs of ending. Northern Ireland is, for all intents and purposes, an independent country. The war with Ireland continues to be bogged down, with both sides launching a number of unsuccessful attacks. The oncoming blight has increase hardships on both sides, but the war continues — the government that sues for peace is the government that is overthrown. The situation has come to resemble that found in places like Ethiopia, the Sudan, and various other African countries during the 1980s.
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Last edited by Canadian Army; 11-27-2009 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:10 PM
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August 1999 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division seizes Ballyshannon, which isolates the Donegal region.

June 7 2000 — The southern drive is halted at Drogheda, while the eastern drive encountered stiff resistance and stalled on the outskirts of Bailyshannon.

September 2000 — As autumn set in, the 36th (Ulster) Defence Division begin the siege of Bailyshannon, which could continue through the winter.
I like it but isn't there a small problem between these three? Or may be an element missing when the 36th is taken by surprise?
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Old 11-27-2009, 04:59 PM
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August 1999 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division drives to outskirts of Ballyshannon, which isolates the Donegal region.

October 1999 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division halts its offensive and secured all of its gains. For all its success, however, the 36th (Ulster) Defence Division could not seize Londonderry, to which it had laid siege to in mid-May.

January 2000 — The year begins with a surprise offensive by the Irish Defence Forces. Conducted in the middle of the worst winter seen in Ireland for many years, it takes the 36th (Ulster) Defence Division totally by surprise and accomplishes its goal re-establishing links with Donegal and breaking the siege of Londonderry.

June 7 2000 — The southern drive is halted at Drogheda, while the eastern drive encountered stiff resistance and stalled on the outskirts of Bailyshannon.

September 2000 — As autumn set in, the 36th (Ulster) Defence Division begins the siege of Bailyshannon, which could continue through the winter.
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Old 12-06-2009, 09:49 PM
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My view about Northern Ireland would be that British and Northern Irish Unionists forces would be too tough for Republic of Ireland forces to take on on their own ground, even during a nuclear war.

Irish Republican terrorists were suprisingly resourcefull and determined, but they tended to cross the border when things got to hot for them as they knew British security forces couldn't pursue them. Unionist terrorists and paramilitaries on the other hand had a more ruthless reputation as there was nowhere for them to run. In a full scale war in Northern Ireland there would be little or no restrictions on British security and police force activity, and they would turn a blind eye to Ulster Unionist terrorists.

Although Irish troops are highly regarded, and have historically and continue to be among best soldiers in the British Army, Republic of Ireland military forces are generally inferior to their British counterparts in training and are not as well equiped. The Irish Army is very underfunded and uses mainly outdates equipment, while the Irish Air Corp has little combat and transport capability, and the Irish Naval Service is little better than a coast guard force.

Compared with Republic of Ireland military resources, Britain's military resources and capablities are vastly superior in every way. One RN frigate would sink the entire Irish fleet, and a couple of second line RAF Hawk jets would knock out the entire Irish air force in a day. One British Army armoured regiment could be loaded on a few car ferrys and be in Northern Ireland in a few hours, and it would obliterate the Irish Army as a functional force.


NORTHERN IRELAND

BRITISH ARMY
Currently only one British Army brigade is stationed in Northern Ireland-38th (Irish) Infantry Brigade.

38th (Irish) Infantry Brigade reformed in 2007. The brigade is under the command of the 2nd Division, the regional division for Scotland, Northern England and Northern Ireland, and is responsible for administering the Territorial Army within Northern Ireland. This was the culmination of a drawdown of military headquarters in Northern Ireland, which saw the disbandment of 3 Infantry Brigade, 8 Infantry Brigade, 39 Infantry Brigade and 107 (Ulster) Brigade.

HQ Northern Ireland
15 Signal Regiment
38 Infantry Brigade:
• HQNI Support Battalion
• 2nd Battalion, The Royal Irish Regiment (27th (Inniskilling), 83rd, 87th and Ulster Defence Regiment)
• 591 (Independent) Field Squadron, Royal Engineers
• 152 Transport Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps
• 253 Medical Regiment, Royal Army Medical Corps
• Queen's University Officer Training Corps
B (North Irish Horse) Squadron, Queen's Own Yeomanry
40 (Ulster) Signal Regiment
206 (Ulster) Battery, 105th Regiment Royal Artillery (Volunteers)
204 Field Hospital, Royal Army Medical Corps
5 Regiment, Army Air Corps
25 Engineer Regiment
8 Detachment, Lisburn, Northern Ireland - 243 Provost Company (Volunteers)


3rd Infantry Brigade was based in Portadown Ireland from 1974 until 2004 when it was disbanded. It was the HQ element for the security forces which controlled the South Armagh region, and included several battalions of the Ulster Defence Regiment.

8th Infantry Brigade was based in Derry from the late 1960s to 2006, and covered the north and northwest regions of Ulster. Its HQ was moved to Ballykelly in 2003 and the brigade was disbanded in 2006.

39th Infantry Brigade was deployed to Northern Ireland in 1969 and was responsible for the security of Belfast and the eastern region of Ulster. It was named 39 Airportable Brigade when it was first sent to Ireland, and under its command were elements of the Parachute Regiment which was involved in the Bloody Sunday incident in 1972. The brigade took on some units from the disbanded 3rd Infantry Brigade in 2004, and was amalgamated with 107 (Ulster) Brigade in 2006 and disbanded in 2007.

107th (Ulster) Brigade was based in Ballymena and was responsible for administering the Territorial Army within Northern Ireland. It was disbanded in 2006 and amalgamated with 39 Infantry Brigade and then into the 38th (Irish) Infantry Brigade in 2007.

Many regular British Army infantry regiments and units from mainland Britain did tours in Northern Ireland, including the Parachute Regiment, the Special Air Service, and Royal Marine Commandos.


ROYAL IRISH RANGERS
British Army infantry regiment formed in 1968 when the three surviving Irish regiments of the British Army were amalgamated into a single regiment. Although an Irish based regiment the Rangers were resistant to serving in Northern Ireland during the height of the “ Troubles ”, and its troops served tours in Germany, the Falklands and elsewhere, and the regiment actively recruited from South of the Border. However the Rangers did serve in Northern Ireland from 1989-1991. The regiment amalgamated with the Ulster Defence Regiment to form the Royal Irish Regiment in 1992.

Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
Royal Ulster Rifles
Royal Irish Fusiliers (Princess Victoria’s)

Weapons: Standard British Army issue.
Vehicles: Standard British Army issue.


ULSTER DEFENCE REGIMENT (UDR)
Former British Army Territorial infantry regiment with 11 battalions at peak strength. Highly politicised and accused of both sectarianism and collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries and abuses against catholic community. Catholic members accounted for 3% of strength during the 1980’s and 1990’s. The regiment amalgamated with the Royal Irish Rangers to form the Royal Irish Regiment in 1992.

1st (County Antrim) Battalion
2nd (County Armagh) Battalion
3rd (County Down) Battalion
4th (County Fermanagh) Battalion
5th (County Londonderry) Battalion
6th (County Tyrone) Battalion
7th (City of Belfast) Battalion
8th (County Tyrone) Battalion
9th (County Antrim) Battalion
10th (City of Belfast) Battalion
11th (Craigavon) Battalion

Weapons: 7.62mm L1A1 SLR rifles, 9mm Browning pistols, 9mm Sterling SMG’s, 7.62mm L4A4 Bren LMGs, 7.62mm L7A2 FN MAG GPMGs, as well as small stocks of Walther PPK pistols, Federal riot guns and Carl Gustav 84mm grenade launchers. 5.56mm SA80 began replacing L1A1 SLR in the 1980’s.
Vehicles: ¾-ton Land Rovers, Shorland armoured cars, three & four-ton Bedford trucks, and unmarked civilian cars and vans. UDR troops were frequently deployed on Army and RAF helicopters, usually the Army Lynx.

ROYAL ULSTER CONSTABULARY (RUC)
At its peak the RUC had around 8,500 police officers with a further 5,000 members of the RUC Reserve, which was the second largest police force in the United Kingdom after the Metropolitan Police of London. The Special Patrol Group was a RUC police unit tasked with counter terrorism. Each SPG had 30 members. Many SPG units were accused of collusion with the paramilitary group the Ulster Volunteer Force.

Weapons: 0.38 Ruger Security Six revolver, 7.62mm Ruger Mini-14 carbine, 9mm HK MP5 SMG’s, as well as some 9mm Glock 17 pistols, 7.62mm HK G3 and 5.56mm HK33 rifles.
Vehicles: ¾-ton Land Rovers, civilian cars and vans.

ROYAL AIR FORCE
RAF Aldergrove (20th September 2009 ceased to officially be RAF base)
No. 230 Squadron (9x Puma helicopters)
No. 3 Squadron, RAF Regiment
5th Regiment Army Air Corps (6x Defender multi-purpose patrol and recon aircraft, 6x Islander patrol and utility aircraft)
PSNI Air Support Unit (1x EC-135 helicopter)
***
No. 72 Squadron operated Puma & Wessex helicopters until 2002.
No. 18 Squadron operated detachments of Chinook helicopters during the late 1980’s.
* Also Army AH-64, Gazelle and Lynx helicopters periodically deployed to Aldergrove, in addition to RAF Tristars and VC10s.
Shackleton Barracks
Former RAF base. Runways and taxiways remain well maintained and operational, and are used as a refuelling point for army helicopters and small fixed-wing aircraft operating out of RAF Aldergrove.

ROYAL NAVY
4 River-Class minesweepers (Arun, Blackwater, Itchen, Spey)
* All 4 ships moved to HM Naval Base Clyde (Faslane Naval Base) in western Scotland in 1993, and replaced by Hunt-Class minesweepers (Brecon, Cottesmore, Dulverton) in 1998.
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Old 12-06-2009, 11:09 PM
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Thanks RN7. Nice stuff.

For my part I have Irish forces collaborating with the British against the IRA but CA has posted a nice timeline and I'm not sure that if the situation evolves as he describes the British Army gets the upper hand.

Also I agree partly with what you say, you might be underestimating the Irish army.

First, it will be composed of 13.000 regular troops and 16.000 reservists. They will compose 4 infantry brigades including 11 infantry battalions, 1 Ranger company, 1 Tank squadron, 1 Recce squadron, 3 artillery regiment, 1 independent battery, 1 air-defense regiment and 3 engineer companies.

Second they will mobilize the Forsa Cosanta Aituil (FCA) that will bring 22.000 more troops. That represent 18 infantry battalion, six artillery regiments, 3 armoured cavalry squadrons, 3 engineer squadrons and 3 air-defense batteries.

Their equipement is not that heavy alright but so is the equipment of the British. In addition Scorpion and AML-60/90 will represent a serious threat. Carl Gustav and Milan will match these of the British. Artillery is partly outdated with 25-pdr but much of it is equipped with light gun and that is much better than anything in British hands.

Bofors and RBS-70 are more than a threat for the RAF.

You are right for the air force and the navy, however. I don't think the navy will be heavily engaged and the air force is no good outside COIN operations. Nevertheless, in case of the Twilight War, the Irish will still have their 6 Fouga Magister. These will be the sole jet aircrafts in the area and could prove to be of a certain advantage. Fouga have limited capacities but with no opposing jets they are something to count with.

Finally Ireland has the Garda Sochiana (Civil Police) to back its army and it will have less difficulties in term of supply. Outside Cork the country didn't suffer any massive destruction and you can expect it's tiny military industry to be working. That's very tiny indeed but more than what the British have after the nukes fall. In addition, you can expect the French to provide some supplies and why not more Fouga (the last were being retired at that time)

Last edited by Mohoender; 12-06-2009 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 12-07-2009, 09:03 AM
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Sorry I haven't given a proper reply to this yet - been very busy with work. I'll hopefully get a chance to give this a proper answer from a local point of view this weekend.
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Old 12-08-2009, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
First, it will be composed of 13.000 regular troops and 16.000 reservists. They will compose 4 infantry brigades including 11 infantry battalions, 1 Ranger company, 1 Tank squadron, 1 Recce squadron, 3 artillery regiment, 1 independent battery, 1 air-defense regiment and 3 engineer companies.
On paper! But in the period covering the Twilight War period the Republic of Ireland's land forces amounted to 14x Scorpion Tanks, 19x AML-90 and 32x AML-60, and 24x AML-20 armoured cars, 70x APC's, 60x artillery guns (including 48x 88mm guns dating from the 1930's), and 21 Milan AT missiles (and thats debatable).


Quote:
Second they will mobilize the Forsa Cosanta Aituil (FCA) that will bring 22.000 more troops. That represent 18 infantry battalion, six artillery regiments, 3 armoured cavalry squadrons, 3 engineer squadrons and 3 air-defense batteries.
The FCA is the Irish reserve, you have double counted it, and its armoured cavalry squadrons have no armoured vehicles in the real sense of the word, while its artillery regiments would be equipped with a few mortars if they are lucky.


Quote:
Their equipement is not that heavy alright but so is the equipment of the British. In addition Scorpion and AML-60/90 will represent a serious threat. Carl Gustav and Milan will match these of the British. Artillery is partly outdated with 25-pdr but much of it is equipped with light gun and that is much better than anything in British hands.
Their the worst equipped army in Europe and Ireland's light skinned Scorpion and AML's would have no chance against British tanks, and they had a total of 14x 105mm light guns in addition to the 48x 25 pdr museum pieces.


Quote:
Bofors and RBS-70 are more than a threat for the RAF.
I really don't think a few AA Guns and 7x RBS-70 man portable SAM's with a range of 8km are going to trouble the RAF that much.


Quote:
You are right for the air force and the navy, however. I don't think the navy will be heavily engaged and the air force is no good outside COIN operations. Nevertheless, in case of the Twilight War, the Irish will still have their 6 Fouga Magister. These will be the sole jet aircrafts in the area and could prove to be of a certain advantage. Fouga have limited capacities but with no opposing jets they are something to count with.
The RAF don't have to base any jets in Northern Ireland. How hard would it realy be for RAF jets to reach any target in Ireland from Britain?


Quote:
Finally Ireland has the Garda Sochiana (Civil Police) to back its army and it will have less difficulties in term of supply. Outside Cork the country didn't suffer any massive destruction and you can expect it's tiny military industry to be working. That's very tiny indeed but more than what the British have after the nukes fall. In addition, you can expect the French to provide some supplies and why not more Fouga (the last were being retired at that time)
The Garda are an unarmed police force, although plain clothes officers do carry firearms and the force has small stocks of SMG's, shotguns and rifles. Ireland (Republic) has no military industry, it imports all its weapons. If Ireland attacks British forces then I would expect British forces to retaliate in some force, and they could pretty much wipe out Ireland's military forces in a days if they wanted to. If the French provide supplies I would expect it to be clandestine and not in great quantities, and they are certainly not going to be shipping Fouga's.
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
On paper! But in the period covering the Twilight War period the Republic of Ireland's land forces amounted to 14x Scorpion Tanks, 19x AML-90 and 32x AML-60, and 24x AML-20 armoured cars, 70x APC's, 60x artillery guns (including 48x 88mm guns dating from the 1930's), and 21 Milan AT missiles (and thats debatable).
I consider that it was built up to that just because of the war.

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The FCA is the Irish reserve, you have double counted it, and its armoured cavalry squadrons have no armoured vehicles in the real sense of the word, while its artillery regiments would be equipped with a few mortars if they are lucky.
Thanks a lot for that one. My source is British that must explain why. It counted this as a second reserve. I have not done on Ireland so far and, therefore, this will be more than useful. I 'm very greatful.


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Their the worst equipped army in Europe and Ireland's light skinned Scorpion and AML's would have no chance against British tanks, and they had a total of 14x 105mm light guns in addition to the 48x 25 pdr museum pieces.
I entirely agree but there is no british tanks in Northern Ireland. Moreover, I don't consider that the British have anything above 120mm mortars in that area. Then, 50 museum pieces are something to count with.

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I really don't think a few AA Guns and 7x RBS-70 man portable SAM's with a range of 8km are going to trouble the RAF that much.
If UK deploys even a wing of Harriers, the game is over but helicopters are an entirely different matter. It depends on your choice here.

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The RAF don't have to base any jets in Northern Ireland. How hard would it realy be for RAF jets to reach any target in Ireland from Britain?
I agree but I counted that the RAF being busy elsewhere, it wouldn't deploy here.

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The Garda are an unarmed police force, although plain clothes officers do carry firearms and the force has small stocks of SMG's, shotguns and rifles. Ireland (Republic) has no military industry, it imports all its weapons. If Ireland attacks British forces then I would expect British forces to retaliate in some force, and they could pretty much wipe out Ireland's military forces in a days if they wanted to. If the French provide supplies I would expect it to be clandestine and not in great quantities, and they are certainly not going to be shipping Fouga's.
I understood that but, I'm sure the Garda will be armed in case of a Twilight War (at least with shotguns). However, I didn't consider it would carry any field duty outside of coastal and rear areas patrols.

For France, there is no reason for the supplies to be shipped clandestinely as Ireland (unlike scotland or Quebec) is a legitimate country. It would be perfectly legitimate to sell it military supplies: phased out AML, heavy mortars, ammunitions and, why not, air-defense equipements. For the Fouga, I'm convinced they will for two reasons: France is out of the war and it will keep replacing its Fougas by Alpha Jets. Therefore, it will be more than happy to sell them (even in the case of no conflict with UK, it could sell them to Ireland). Irish pilots are familiar with the plane and they won't need extensive training to expend the air force. If UK wants to react against France sending supplies, it can't do much outside of the diplomatic fields because France is too strong militarily.

The main difference between our views reside in the British reaction. I consider that this conflict would remain an infantry war with forces pretty much matching each other. That's what I understood from Canadian Army text and, of course, I might be wrong. As I said my personnal view is that Ireland remains outside of the conflict, even helping the British in their fight against the IRA. Thanks for your views

Last edited by Mohoender; 12-08-2009 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:55 AM
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Something else might interest you RN7. If most of the Irish AML are AML-60, they will quickly find themselve short of ammunitions unless Ireland as the capability to produce the proper 60mm ammo.

France phased out its last AML-60 in the mid-1980's (or early, I don't remember) because of insufficient ammo. If I think France could supply Ireland, it would certainly not produce these 60mm mortar rounds again. It leaves the AML-60 with their Cal.50 and 7.62 only.
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:27 AM
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There were 4 British Brigade HQ in Northern Ireland in the 1990s. 3rd, 8th and 39th Infantry Brigades were regional brigades covering various parts of Northern Ireland, containing a mix of regular troops and UDR. 107th (Ulster) Brigade is a TA Brigade which contained 4th and 5th Royal Irish Rangers, the North Irish Horse and signals, engineer and artillery elements.

All brigades were earmarked for transfer out of Ireland as the war in Europe heated up. 3rd Infantry Brigade was transferred out of Ireland to 3rd Mechanised Division with BAOR, but with trouble brewing in Ireland the others are likely to have stayed.

8th Infantry Brigade (Battalions rotate out)
1st Bn, The Light Infantry: 8x 81mm mortars, 6x Milan, 4x .50 cal mg
3rd Bn, The Light Infantry: 8x 81mm mortars, 6x Milan, 4x .50 cal mg

39th Infantry Brigade (Dedicated to the defence of Northern Ireland) (The Battalions rotate out).
1st Bn, The Devon and Dorset Regiment: 71x FV432, 4x Sultan, 7x Ferret, 8x Scimitar, 8x 81mm Mortar, 24x Milan
1st Bn, The Cheshire Regiment (Light Infantry): 8x 81mm mortars, 6x Milan, 4x .50 cal mg

107 (Ulster) Brigade (NI)
North Irish Horse (TA): 29x Sultan, 40x Scimitar, 32xScorpion, 20x Striker, 20x Spartan, 17x Ferret
1st Bn, The Royal Irish Rangers: 71x FV432, 4x Sultan, 7x Ferret, 8x Scimitar, 8x 81mm Mortar, 24x Milan
2nd Bn, The Royal Irish Rangers: 71x FV432, 4x Sultan, 7x Ferret, 8x Scimitar, 8x 81mm Mortar, 24x Milan
4th Bn, The Royal Irish Rangers (TA): 74x Land Rovers
5th Bn, The Royal Irish Rangers (TA): 74x Land Rovers

Ulster Defense Regiment (TA)
11 Infantry Battalions (Light Infantry): 8x 81mm mortars, 6x Milan, 4x .50 cal mg (each) * It is likely that only 5 battalions or even 3 (large) battalion were active.


One British Army Armoured Regiment had 70x Challenger, 4x Sultan, 8x Scorpion, 10x FV432, 8x Ferret. In the 90’s three armoured regiments were based in the UK, and two of them were not assigned to reinforce the BAOR in Germany. One British Army Territorial Yeomanry Regiment had 80x Fox, 20x Spartan, 11x Sultan, 11x Ferret and 5x Samaritan. One British Army Light Field Artillery Regiment had 24-18x 105mm guns. Any one of them could easily be transported to Ireland by ferry in a few hours.
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:30 AM
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I think a point worth also bringing up is the quality of the two sides’ soldiers. I have friends in Dublin and used to visit regularly in the early to mid 90’ and the subject of the Irish Army came up in conversation a few times.

My understanding from talking to my friends was that the majority of Southern Irishmen who were serious about pursuing a long term military career opted to join either the British Army or, in some cases, the French Foreign Legion. This meant that these organisations attracted the best quality recruits, whilst the Irish Army wasn't seen as a good option and had to make do with what was left (or the British / French didn’t want).
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:16 AM
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I think a point worth also bringing up is the quality of the two sides’ soldiers. I have friends in Dublin and used to visit regularly in the early to mid 90’ and the subject of the Irish Army came up in conversation a few times.

My understanding from talking to my friends was that the majority of Southern Irishmen who were serious about pursuing a long term military career opted to join either the British Army or, in some cases, the French Foreign Legion. This meant that these organisations attracted the best quality recruits, whilst the Irish Army wasn't seen as a good option and had to make do with what was left (or the British / French didn’t want).

I didn't want to bring this topic up but you are spot on.

I think Ireland (south) is the largest source of British Army recruits outside of the UK and maybe Nepal. Most recruits to the Irish Army have either the wrong temperment to be employed at anything else or see it as a career move to a fairly comfortable government job. Many married soldiers go home to their families after work, at least for part of the week, and it was recently highlighted in the Irish media that many Irish soldiers are well over 30 and out of shape. Many also volunteer for UN peacekeeping duties because they get a big pay rise for doing so.

Back in the 90's Irish army soldiers tried to suit the Irish government because they claimed their hearing was damaged because they werent given ear plugs while on target practice. Some soldiers also tried to suit because they werent provided with sun-screen while on UN duties in sunny climates such as Cyprus and the Lebanon. It was also claimed that Irish soldiers were asked to make pretent shooting and explosive noises while on exercises as the army couldn't afford to give them real or training ammunition because of cuts.

Recently some new vehicles, helicopters and weapons have been bought to increase the forces capabilities, particularly regarding UN duties, but outside of the Ranger Company which is very well trained and highly regarded, the average Republic of Ireland soldier isn't as well trained, equipped or of the same calibre of their British counterparts.
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:52 AM
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One British Army Armoured Regiment had 70x Challenger, 4x Sultan, 8x Scorpion, 10x FV432, 8x Ferret. In the 90’s three armoured regiments were based in the UK, and two of them were not assigned to reinforce the BAOR in Germany. One British Army Territorial Yeomanry Regiment had 80x Fox, 20x Spartan, 11x Sultan, 11x Ferret and 5x Samaritan. One British Army Light Field Artillery Regiment had 24-18x 105mm guns. Any one of them could easily be transported to Ireland by ferry in a few hours.
I think I remember and know that you are quite accurate. As I said my point of view is that Ireland remains neutral and helps UK fighting the IRA. I also adopted the OOB developped by someone from the former forum where these regular units have been replaced by territorial units more lightly equipped.

However, I didn't checked CA's timeline in regard of the game's timeline. I have not refered to any of the original timelines in a couple of months and as my personnal biological computer is already overloaded with informations, I don't retain a precize memory of it (I had to overwrite that part of my braindisc).

In my mind these units were either sent overseas or vaporized by the heavy nuclear strike on UK. That counts also for most ferries (at least these in the Irish Sea). If CA's timeline takes place before that, I would advise that what he describes should happen a little later. I agree with you that the Irish would be fools to move against regular UK units.
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:53 AM
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I didn't want to bring this topic up but you are spot on.
That's why I don't have Ireland fighting UK even when that last country is badly weakened. Still CA's idea is nice and I like it.
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Old 12-08-2009, 04:03 PM
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... Many married soldiers go home to their families after work, at least for part of the week,
That in itself isn't too surprising, there's a few Western armies that have the same thing during peacetime with personnel either in married quarters on base or in the local area near the base. During peacetime, if they aren't on exercises/training, then the army is practically a 9 to 5 job like any other job.
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Old 12-11-2009, 09:55 PM
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Default Exercise Armageddon

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6814997.ece

The real-world plan of attack for the Irish army
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:30 AM
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I lived in Cork during the '90-'91 school year as an exchange student at UC Cork. One of my housemates was an Irish reservist--a sniper. Living with him was very revealing.

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Old 12-18-2009, 10:52 AM
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British Army orbat for Northern Ireland for the 1980's.

NORTHERN IRELAND

33 Independent Field Sqn RE, Antrim
Provisional Regiment AAC, Aldergrove
4 Royal Irish Rangers, Portadown
5 Royal Irish Rangers, Lurgan
102 Light Air Defence Regiment RA, Newtownards

8 Infantry Brigade, Londonderry
  • 1 Queens Own Highlanders, Aldergrove
  • 1 Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, Ballykelly
  • 1 Royal Anglian Regiment, Londonderry
  • 1 Queen’s Regiment, Omagh
39 Infantry Brigade, Lisburn
  • 1 Royal Highland Fusiliers, Holywood
  • 1 Devonshire & Dorset Regiment, Ballykinlar
Ulster Defence Regiment
  • 1 UDR, Ballymena
  • 2 UDR, Armagh
  • 3 UDR, Ballykinlar
  • 4 UDR, Enniskillen
  • 5 UDR, Limavady
  • 6 UDR, Omagh
  • 7 UDR, Holywood
  • 8 UDR, Dungannon
  • 9 UDR, Antrim
  • 10 UDR, Belfast
  • 11 UDR, Portadown
74 Engineer Regiment, Belfast
655 Sqn AAC, det to Aldergrove
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
British Army orbat for Northern Ireland for the 1980's.

NORTHERN IRELAND

33 Independent Field Sqn RE, Antrim
Provisional Regiment AAC, Aldergrove
4 Royal Irish Rangers, Portadown
5 Royal Irish Rangers, Lurgan
102 Light Air Defence Regiment RA, Newtownards

8 Infantry Brigade, Londonderry
  • 1 Queens Own Highlanders, Aldergrove
  • 1 Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, Ballykelly
  • 1 Royal Anglian Regiment, Londonderry
  • 1 Queen’s Regiment, Omagh
39 Infantry Brigade, Lisburn
  • 1 Royal Highland Fusiliers, Holywood
  • 1 Devonshire & Dorset Regiment, Ballykinlar
Ulster Defence Regiment
  • 1 UDR, Ballymena
  • 2 UDR, Armagh
  • 3 UDR, Ballykinlar
  • 4 UDR, Enniskillen
  • 5 UDR, Limavady
  • 6 UDR, Omagh
  • 7 UDR, Holywood
  • 8 UDR, Dungannon
  • 9 UDR, Antrim
  • 10 UDR, Belfast
  • 11 UDR, Portadown
74 Engineer Regiment, Belfast
655 Sqn AAC, det to Aldergrove
Isn't this missing the 3rd Infantry Brigade in South Armagh?

There was also a Royal Military Police presence...I'm not 100% on this but think it might have been 173 Provost Company at Lisburn (at least from August 87 - the lineage of RMP Companies in NI seems a bit complex...a lot of Provost Companies and Regiments have been disbanded then reformed over the years).

The Infantry Battalions are also complicated by the fact that additional Battalions (and occasionally Royal Artillery Field Regiments) transferred in on short term roulement tours. (I'm guessing the orbat above is showing the Battalions on long term tours at the time?).

Finally, I think at during at least part of the 80's there was also an Army Guard Force at the Maze prison which may have been a detached Squadron from an Armoured Regiment or Battery from an Artillery Regiment (operating in an infantry role without their respective tanks / artilley pieces). Again I think this was a short term roulement posting.

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Old 12-19-2009, 09:46 AM
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Isn't this missing the 3rd Infantry Brigade in South Armagh?
Yes the 3rd Brigade was not included in this orbat I was sourcing. I just used this orbat to add additional information for British forces in Northern Ireland. The 3rd Infantry Brigade was based in Portadown from 1974 till 2004 which I refered to in an earlier post.


Quote:
There was also a Royal Military Police presence...I'm not 100% on this but think it might have been 173 Provost Company at Lisburn (at least from August 87 - the lineage of RMP Companies in NI seems a bit complex...a lot of Provost Companies and Regiments have been disbanded then reformed over the years).
I think 6th Regiment Royal Military Police currently covers Northern Ireland.

6 Regiment RMP
Regimental Training Wing
Operations Company
173 (Operations) Platoon
177 (Support) Platoon
Police Company
175 (Provost) Platoon
176 (Provost) Platoon

Also 8 Detachment, 243 Provost Company (Volunteers) was in Lisburn Northern Ireland for a period.

Quote:
The Infantry Battalions are also complicated by the fact that additional Battalions (and occasionally Royal Artillery Field Regiments) transferred in on short term roulement tours. (I'm guessing the orbat above is showing the Battalions on long term tours at the time?).
They were listed as deployed to Northern Ireland in 1984-85.

Quote:
Finally, I think at during at least part of the 80's there was also an Army Guard Force at the Maze prison which may have been a detached Squadron from an Armoured Regiment or Battery from an Artillery Regiment (operating in an infantry role without their respective tanks / artilley pieces). Again I think this was a short term roulement posting.
In 1982 I think elements of the Queens Royal Irish Hussars were part of the guard force for the Maze Prison.
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Old 12-19-2009, 11:55 AM
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I think 6th Regiment Royal Military Police currently covers Northern Ireland.

6 Regiment RMP
Regimental Training Wing
Operations Company
173 (Operations) Platoon
177 (Support) Platoon
Police Company
175 (Provost) Platoon
176 (Provost) Platoon

Also 8 Detachment, 243 Provost Company (Volunteers) was in Lisburn Northern Ireland for a period.
You're right, it's currently 6th Regiment that covers NI, although that wasn't established until June 2000, so wouldn't exist in T2K.

As best as I can tell 1st Regiment was in place until March 1985, at which point it disbanded and its constituent Companies (which included 173 and possibly 174 Provost Companies) became independent. So in a T2K setting a GM could probably keep 1st Regiment in place if desired.

That said, I've always thought that canon envisaged most regular British forces being pulled out of Northern Ireland at some point during 1997 and moved to Europe, with their place being taken by a fully mobilised Ulster Defence Regiment.

So, if you go by canon it makes perfect sense to me that the UDR would then take on the title 36th (Ulster) Division (as suggested by Canadian Army), and provide the vast majority of the infantry soldiers in NI, whilst a small number of British Regulars (or TA) from the Royal Signals, Royal Engineers (for EOD), and Army Air Corps fill 36 Division's various support roles. Personally, I would also attach 1 Regiment RMP and (possibly) 3 Squadron RAF Regiment (as you mentioned earlier) to 36th Division.
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Last edited by Rainbow Six; 12-19-2009 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 12-20-2009, 10:22 PM
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You're right, it's currently 6th Regiment that covers NI, although that wasn't established until June 2000, so wouldn't exist in T2K.

As best as I can tell 1st Regiment was in place until March 1985, at which point it disbanded and its constituent Companies (which included 173 and possibly 174 Provost Companies) became independent. So in a T2K setting a GM could probably keep 1st Regiment in place if desired.
Well I dunno, 176 Provost Company was actually part of 2nd Regiment RMP which I think has now been disbanded, while I have since seen that 254 Provost Company (Volunteers) TA which I think has been disbanded, was also in Northern Ireland and part of the 2nd Regiment. 243 Provost Company (Volunteers) was based in Scotland but 8 detachment was in Ireland, and 243 Provost Company was part of the 5th Regiment RMP which was HQ in Germany along with 1st Regiment RMP. 3rd & 4th regiments RMP seem to be mainly home based units but none of their units were in Ireland. Not much logic to it at all I'm afraid!


Quote:
That said, I've always thought that canon envisaged most regular British forces being pulled out of Northern Ireland at some point during 1997 and moved to Europe, with their place being taken by a fully mobilised Ulster Defence Regiment.
Could be.


Quote:
So, if you go by canon it makes perfect sense to me that the UDR would then take on the title 36th (Ulster) Division (as suggested by Canadian Army), and provide the vast majority of the infantry soldiers in NI, whilst a small number of British Regulars (or TA) from the Royal Signals, Royal Engineers (for EOD), and Army Air Corps fill 36 Division's various support roles. Personally, I would also attach 1 Regiment RMP and (possibly) 3 Squadron RAF Regiment (as you mentioned earlier) to 36th Division.
The only problem here would be that the 36th (Ulster) Division was disbanded in 1919 and never reformed, even during WW2. However one of its brigades (107th) was active until 2006 and present in Ireland. An oversized largely UDR infantry brigade or a brigade group padded out by a small number of army and TA regulars may have been more realistic.
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Old 12-21-2009, 05:36 AM
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Well I dunno, 176 Provost Company was actually part of 2nd Regiment RMP which I think has now been disbanded, while I have since seen that 254 Provost Company (Volunteers) TA which I think has been disbanded, was also in Northern Ireland and part of the 2nd Regiment. 243 Provost Company (Volunteers) was based in Scotland but 8 detachment was in Ireland, and 243 Provost Company was part of the 5th Regiment RMP which was HQ in Germany along with 1st Regiment RMP. 3rd & 4th regiments RMP seem to be mainly home based units but none of their units were in Ireland. Not much logic to it at all I'm afraid!
Totally agree...Regiments and Companies seem to have been disbanded and then reformed with some regularity, making it a bit of a headache trying to work out which units would have been in NI at any given time.

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Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
The only problem here would be that the 36th (Ulster) Division was disbanded in 1919 and never reformed, even during WW2. However one of its brigades (107th) was active until 2006 and present in Ireland. An oversized largely UDR infantry brigade or a brigade group padded out by a small number of army and TA regulars may have been more realistic.
Yep, valid point...either of those options would also work...

Cheers
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:36 PM
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"November 1 1997 — The IRA sink the HMS Helford, HMS Blackwater, HMS Itchen, HMS Orwell, and HMS Spey moored HM Naval Base Clyde; with 106mm Cannons mounted on motorboats."


Anyone have any idea how many 106mm RR rounds it would take to sink each ship?
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:47 PM
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Anyone have any idea how many 106mm RR rounds it would take to sink each ship?
Just one if placed in the right location. Of course finding that location might take numerous attempts.

As a rule though, I'd imagine holes above the waterline aren't going to do much good, and 106mm RCL aren't exactly all that effective through water....
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Old 12-21-2009, 06:48 PM
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"November 1 1997 — The IRA sink the HMS Helford, HMS Blackwater, HMS Itchen, HMS Orwell, and HMS Spey moored HM Naval Base Clyde; with 106mm Cannons mounted on motorboats."


Anyone have any idea how many 106mm RR rounds it would take to sink each ship?
I think the other important issue is what kind of vessels were they? If for example they were the small coastal minesweepers the British had during that period, they were wooden hull (or fibreglass I don't recall exactly).

Hmm, doing a quick check of the web, the Helford was a minehunter ship, unfortunately it was transferred to the Bangladeshi navy in 1994. The picture looks as though it has a metal hull but would it have the same level of armour as say a frigate? The 106mm rounds were at least the equivalent of a 105mm tank round so they would have some ability to damage a ship.
It seems that at least half of the ships mentioned are minehunters and they are rather small
http://www.oldships.org.uk/SHIPS/SHI...ORD_DETAIL.htm
http://www.oldships.org.uk/SHIPS/SHI...TER_DETAIL.htm
http://www.oldships.org.uk/SHIPS/SHI...EN_DETAILS.htm
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:19 AM
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Default River-Class

I did some checking the River-Class were built with a traditional steel hull to a design based on a commercial offshore support vessel. The class was designed to be operated as deep sea team sweepers, to combat the threat posed to submarines by Soviet deep-water buoyant moored mines codenamed "Cluster Bay".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_class_minesweeper

Here is picture from wikipedia of the HMS Orwell in the Bay of Biscay en route to Gibraltar, 1990
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:15 AM
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Also, HMNB Clyde is home to the Royal Navy's ballistic missile subs, so would be fairly heavily guarded by, amongst others, the Royal Marines' Commachio Group.

I'd have thought PIRA would be better off using any recoilless rifles they had against British vehicles in Ulster...I can't see any benefit to them in sinking five minesweepers in Scottish waters (other than as a propaganda coup perhaps).

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Old 12-26-2009, 08:04 AM
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Wouldn't it be nicer to have them using divers as the Italians did in 1941 when they sunk the Queen Elisabeth and Valiant?
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Old 12-27-2009, 10:22 PM
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Also, HMNB Clyde is home to the Royal Navy's ballistic missile subs, so would be fairly heavily guarded by, amongst others, the Royal Marines' Commachio Group.

I'd have thought PIRA would be better off using any recoilless rifles they had against British vehicles in Ulster...I can't see any benefit to them in sinking five minesweepers in Scottish waters (other than as a propaganda coup perhaps).

Cheers
The wiki page on Commachio states by the late 80s it was over 400 strong. I can't really see PIRA getting 106mm RRs in place there. Now the Baltic and/or Northern Fleet Naval Spetsnaz Brigades are another story (SSBNs might be a priority for them?), and they have access to all kinds of goodies, like AT-4 missiles.

Just saying...
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