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I vaguely recall there was an American unit in WWII using captured Tigers....
Anyone know anything about it?
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#2
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The only reference to any organized unit using captured equipment are five field artillery battalions that used former German 105mm howitzers due to shipping problems. The combat records for these units indicate that this was a short-term use only and by 1945, they had been re-equipped with US artillery pieces. There are references to several companies using a captured Panther or Tiger but again, this was during a period when there were no replacement Shermans and as soon as Shermans arrived, the German tank was disabled. What a lot of people forget is that the Panther/Tiger/King Tiger had a very poor maintenance record. Part of this was due to sabotage by the slave labor, but even more of it was caused by the over-engineering by the design staff. For example, the Panther was designed to ford rivers via a snorkel, due to the large weight of the vehicle, and that most bridges in Eastern Europe were not designed to support the weight. Not a bad idea, right? The Panther engine was carefully designed to be water-tight. When the first Panthers went into service in Russia, they were found to have two major problems. The engines overheated rapidly, in the drive to be water-tight, the designers failed to allow room for air-circulation around the radiator. The other problem lay at the other end of the engine-cooling system, the intake fan. On the back deck of the Panther is something that looks like a overturned bucket, this is the cover for the intake fan. When the Panthers moved through forest, the vibrations caused by their movement would cause leaves to fall and soon blanket the vehicle. The leaves would actually cover the intake fan and eventually jam it. The Panther crews resorted to punching holes in buckets and tieing them to the intake vent and eventually welding them in place. You may see pictures of Panthers on the march with the rear escape hatch open and a crewman sitting in it, usually with a caption about getting fresh air in the turret. What was actually happening is that the crewman was sitting on the rim of the hatch, getting fresh air and watching over the intake filter to make sure that it wasn't covered in debris! When you look on the back deck, on either side of the "overturned bucket" are two large fans, these are the exhaust fans for the radiators.
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The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis. |
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Do you have something more to go on? I'd like to follow up on. Using captured artillery wasn't all that uncommon for the western allies, but I'm unable to find reference anywhere captured tanks were used. (Motorcycles, trucks, even half-tracks, but not tanks.) In a way, it wasn't worth it. The western allies were never short of equipment and vehicles could be replaced within days or a week at most. Unlike the Russians, who trained crews and support personnel on German equipment and organised a logistical chain, Americans/Commonwealth/etc. crews climbing into a Panther would be confronted by a completely unfamiliar and overly complicated machine with no spares and little chance of repair or resupply. Tactically it would seem like only in the most dire situation would a crew bother to man a captured German tank, but not out of the question. There's also the danger of attack from the "American Luftwaffe". That is, the USAAF. Fratricide from ground-attack aircraft against marked Shermans were common enough, I can just imagine how a captured tank would fare! At any rate, doing some research I see that that the British did use captured Italian tanks in North Africa and the Australians used both German and Italian tanks, but can't find any references in Europe after Normandy of the western allies or specifically Americans using captured German tanks. Unrelated but fascinating: the "German Tank Problem". How statistical analysis of the serial numbers on captured tanks allowed for really accurate estimates of German tank production in WWII. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem Tony |
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Statistics can however be misleading, I seem to remember different factories were allocated different runs of numbers which weren't always used leaving gaps in the series. |
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That would be a cool photo! I'll keep looking. Quote:
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Reading further in the article, I see it depended on where they got the serial. Some are more reliable than others. Tony |
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http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerk...sd-kfz-171.htm I'm impressed at the accuracy of the statistics. Shame that pre-D Day we didn't even know that the Panther wasn't just being used in smaller heavy tank battalions like the Tiger. |
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The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis. |
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I think during WWII especially 1944 on, things moved too fast for pilots to know where there front was on the western front. Especially since both sides various vehicles that looked similar. One of the things that you think the guy on the ground has hard time telling various vehicles with night vision devices.
Think about someone flying at tree top or higher where they have less time to debate what they have seen on the ground... |
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This was often taken advantage of, especially in the Western Desert. The British Long Range Desert Group used a specialized item of equipment to fool enemy aircraft, taking advantage of the lack of knowledge about ground vehicles that the average airdale had, they issued a plywood "roundal" that would be strapped in place on the hoods of their vehicles when they entered enemy territory. One side had the Italian facist insignia, the other the nazi twisteed cross insignia. If they saw an aircraft heading toward and could ID as italian, then the nazi emblem was flipped upwards and every body waved at the "friendly" aircraft. How effective was it? Not a lot of hard data behind oral/written accounts of the troopers who believed that it worked most of the time. And taking into account the tendency of people to "see" what they want to see....
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The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis. |
#10
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I can see the use of captured armour in recognition and training roles. Regarding the conversion of Panthers to allied tanks, several were made to look like M10 tank destroyers with wood applique and allies paint schemes. As an anecdote, the Germans used captured Shermans as reccee tanks on the East Front (captured from the Russians who were supplied them via lend-lease). I saw a picture of a captured M5 Stuart, clearly painted to show the Austrian cross. Tony |
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Ah the lend-lease program was sure source of many of Germans capture vehicles on the Eastern Front. If there a country more stubborn about if-it-not-invented-here attitude it would be the Russians/Soviets.
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I would tend to disagree, the Soviets were desperate for any equipment and pretty much used it all if they could. Including M4 Shermans, M3A1 scout cars, M5 halftracks, Cromwells, Valentines, Bren/Universal carriers, M10 TDs, Aircobras, many, many trucks, etc. Perhaps if they had better industrial production they would have been more picky, but the Soviets used pretty much anything they could get their hands on! Maybe they didn't like a lot of non-Russian equipment at least partly due to Chauvinism, but they used it all. They were so needy, units of the Karelian front salvaged 12x lend-lease M3 Stuarts from the deck of a sunken cargo ship and pushed them into service. http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/w...ral1.htm#Start The Germans then captured some of these vehicles and used them for the same reason. Not specifically because the Russians didn't like lend-lease equipment and therefore abandoned or otherwise gave them to the Germans! Tony |
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The original question was about Allied use of captured German vehicles. The Germans used anything and everything they captured, there are numerous pics of captured Allied equipment, as well as mentions of German battalions equippede with captured T-34s. Like all captured equipment, it was used until it broke down and then was abandoned.
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The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis. |
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I guess that's not that unrealistic for the situation, considering they could well encounter green American troops in less-than perfect visibility. While Skorzeny was of course an impressive soldier in his own right, I wonder how regular American soldiers would have done? Tony |
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