49th Armoured Division

[Webstral]

James, I forgot to tell you that I love the work you do with photos. They add a pleasing dimension to your work.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Webstral

James, I forgot to tell you that I love the work you do with photos. They add a pleasing dimension to your work.

Second the motion

[Webstral]

I tend to agree that not having any of the TFO troops get sent to Oklahoma stretches credulity. Fighting men and machines will be drawn to oil like iron filings to a magnet.

Recently, we had a thread about the Mississippi Watershed and the enormous advantage it gives to the US in terms of speeding the recovery. Depending on the state of the locks around Tulsa, barge traffic from the Mississippi could reach eastern Oklahoma. Moving a thousand men and their personal gear via coastal waterways from Virginia to the mouth of the Atchafalaya, then upriver to Tulsa by barge would be more economical than almost any other means. Provided Milgov has some measure of control over the water route, it’s also not much subject to interdiction by the usual suspects. The real drawback is the time involved. A thousand troops have to be fed the whole way. Still, if the end result is greater protection for the oil, it’s a no-brainer. As an added bonus, the barges can go back downriver with tanks of petroleum. Win-win, from the Milgov point of view.

[Webstral]

The casualties suffered by US units between 01 JUL 00 and 01 APR 01 may be a reflection of the quality of new recruits and the challenge of tackling marauders. As WW2 dragged on, the Luftwaffe changed from a force of well-trained airmen to a force with a kernel of exceptional veterans surrounded by a gaggle of poorly-trained freshmen. US formations in CONUS may reflect a similar state of being. Training probably isn’t what anyone would like it to be for most units. When an infantry company moves to clear out a marauder nest, you get a lot of inexperienced privates doing what poorly-trained soldiers do everywhere. Ongoing operations yield steady attrition. New privates probably are the ones most likely to desert once they decide their chances of making buck sergeant aren’t very good. Close quarters combat yields very high casualties.

I do agree that the Howling Wilderness numbers reflect an agenda directed towards chaos. If chaos weren’t the desired end, then the formations in CONUS might have retained more of their 01 JUL 00 strength. Counterbalancing the stream of casualties would be concerted efforts at providing realistic training focused on the basics (above all discipline) and a recruiting effort that would remind the population that the riflemen eat regularly. Some commanders would do better others at getting seasoned E-6 and E-7 into training positions.

Another factor is ambition on the part of the chain of command. A lot of US commanders may try to control more territory than is feasible. Again, losses add up.

One of the reasons I haven’t felt any shame in assigning comparatively high manpower to Fort Huachuca is that Huachuca has a lot of the problem that face units in other parts of the country beat. The food supply is pretty secure, although there are some scary moments in early 1999. The manpower supply is pretty secure because the food supply is pretty secure. There are only a couple of set-piece battles between US and Mexican forces in Arizona after 1998. Most of the action is fought at a fairly low level. The fighting along the border is conducted mostly on the US side, and the Americans can bring up reinforcements more-or-less at will. There are losses, to be certain, but the losses don’t add up the same way as they do elsewhere. The fighting in eastern Arizona in 1999 also produces losses, but most of the fighting takes place under conditions that favor the firepower of 111th Brigade. The Huachuca command specifically avoids entering Phoenix in force before 2001 due to anxiety about losses in CQB.

[Olefin]

I totally agree with you Webstral about HW reflecting a tendency towards chaos. And its why I reject both it and Kidnapped as canon. The whole story of the modulels up until then was order coming out of chaos - i.e. New America defeated in the Ozarks, the Last Submarine being found and used to bring the scientists to America with fusion tech, Gulf Forty's oil being captured by the players and most likely turned over to MilGov directly or thru the Grange to MilGov in exchange for recognition of a Texas Republic, Allegheny Uprising finding all those supplies

hell even going home - you dont bring home 43,000 men for nothing - they could have stayed in Europe and done more good for the US and its allies

you bring them home to rebuild your armed forces so that you can make areas of peace and order to start rebuilding, not just let them all desert except for 2000 men or so

then suddenly all goes to chaos and the US collapses and the US Army basically turns marauder or deserts

it was a betrayal of the whole rest of the timeline

and seeing the 49th in six months waste away when its the only force that can hold those oil wells and refineries in Oklahoma and take back Texas without any reinforcements - sorry but thats about as believeable as a Giant Dinosaur trashing Tokyo on a regular basis

and you can see what it did to the game - after that it dwindles away to modules set in Europe and a couple of source books and its all over - and why? because they wrote themselves into a Mad Max corner

for me its the same with James work here - its a great work till it gets to HW - and then suddenly the division falls apart - sorry but no dice

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I tend to agree that not having any of the TFO troops get sent to Oklahoma stretches credulity. Fighting men and machines will be drawn to oil like iron filings to a magnet.

The main problem is transporting them there. TF34 as far as we know had little more than fumes in the tank upon landing on the east coast, and the engines certainly aren't in a good way after burning unrefined crude. As much as the US might have wanted more oil from the Germans, I just can't see them parting with a drop more than they absolutely had to.

So, with sea transport effectively out of the question, overland is the only way to go. There's nothing to say some troops, perhaps even a couple of thousand were sent overland to reinforce various units, the 49th AD being one of them, but without fuel and transportation infrastructure, it's slow going. Any reinforcements who don't desert along the way aren't likely to arrive until after the Howling Wilderness date of April 2001, especially given the harsh conditions travellers would face in the winter months.

In fact, we have the knowledge from Kidnapped of large numbers of people shifting westwards in 2001. Perhaps some of these make it all the way and don't die of starvation, disease, radiation sickness, marauders, or any number of other reasons.

In July 2000, we also know the 49th was still fairly strong. It could well be that at the time Omega was planned, the 49th were low on the list for reinforcement compared to other units. As has been pointed out, the 49th between July 00 and April 01 have suffered serious losses, and communicating the true state of affairs could take a long time, especially if verification was required.

IMO all the details in the books can be explained with minimal effort. There's no need to automatically throw them out just because the reasons don't jump out and slap us in the face.

[Olefin]

Leg,

Its the last armored division the US has left and they just brought home thousands of men who have armored warfare experience.

The division is seriously short of men and is guarding hugely important installations that even HW said were critical to MilGov's power base and ability to conduct operations.

And they had five months to go from Norfolk to Oklahoma.

As for transport - there are operational steam engines in PA that could be used a la Going Home (presumably the players would arrive that way and give MilGov a great idea for transport within the US) to get them across the country pretty quickly and if players can arm a train with whatever they have on hand just think what the government can do or what you can do with shipboard armament mounted on railcars

They would have got men to the 49th guaranteed

They arent the MP's up in NE who are doing food distribution - the 49th is the ballgame for retaking Texas and holding those oil refineries

Lets say this - I would be open to accepting all the rest of HW but the destruction of the 90th Corps, the wasting away of the 49th and no reinforcement and the loss of those oil facilities - sorry but that part of the canon is BS and everyone who has ever served with the US military or had anything to do with the US military knows that.

MilGov isnt a bunch of complete idiots. Its a military government lookign at keeping the military in business no matter what. You dont throw away assets like oil refineries and oil wells and the last operational armored division in the US when you have 40,000 plus men sitting in Norfolk.

As for communication problems - sorry but they are in OK and MilGov is in CO. Thats practically next door. They would know exactly what was going on in that state. Hell by horseback they would get messages in a week or less.

Plus I know people who served in the 49th and have shown them the module - and after they finished laughing their butts off they said there is no chance in hell that situation happens where they desert and leave Texas in the hands of Mexicans, Russians and the Texian jerks.

The only place the division would desert to would be en masse, as a unit, to retake Texas. Especially once the guys from Red Star, Lone Star got back and told just how bad the situation was for the Mexicans and Russians in Texas.

Given that I consider anything about the 49th and the destruction of the 90th Corps to be exactly what the City of Angels is - i.e. apocrypha and not part of the game.

[Legbreaker]

We've talked over all this a dozen times before. There's explanations for all of it which I'm not about to repeat again!

As for steam ships, what's their capacity? Where are they getting the coal? If they're wood fired, are they designed to burn it, or will that require greater maintenance? What about enemy forces they'll face along the way, are there sufficient warships with fuel and ammunition to escort them the whole way. Can the escorts be spared from where they start out? Can the steam ships for that matter be spared for such a long and potentially deadly journey? What about weather, will storms be a problem? We know the global climate has changed so Captains can't rely on historical probabilities, and there's no weather bureau left to analyse the sparse data available and make predictions.

There are hundreds, even thousands of problems to be overcome. Many of the problems could very well cause the necessary delays to prevent reinforcements and redeployments which in an ideal, pre-nuke world would happen.

Looking at the canon material might well raise lots of questions about why certain things haven't happened the way they might be expected to, but lets not dismiss it all out of hand without first exploring a few explanations.

As an example, why was the US 5th ID so far from friendly lines when it was overrun. Why was the US 8th ID so far beyond it's Corps brother units? On the surface it makes little sense, but once you dig down and see the big picture it comes together (see the various threads where this topic has been discussed down to the last detail already).

It is my understanding the war was gamed out by the writers before the books were written. The books are a result of that wargaming. 2300 was likewise gamed out over many many months in the mid 80's using T2K as the starting point.

So, the issue to me isn't that apparently arbitrary decisions were made, but understanding how and why those decisions came to be made during the evolution of the T2K world history.

[Olefin]

I am not talking about steam ships - I am talking about steam locomotives. I live in PA and there are a bunch of operational steam locomotives on various small railroads here. And PA is overflowing with coal.

Add in the PA railroad museum that has the shops of the Strasburg Railroad right across the street and connected to it by rail and you can pretty rapdily put together 4-5 steam locomotives that can pull trains back and forth between PA and OK. You may have to fight your way thru.

But if guys can do it in Poland in Going Home they can sure as hell do it in the US.

As for the authors - sorry but they made one hell of a lot of mistakes and we have discussed those too. Frankly no military would be that stupid to not reinforce that division and make it a priority.

And before you go all canon on me - the game basically stopped in mid April of 2001 as far as the US goes. There were a few isolated Challenge articles but thats it. Any projections in HW are just that - projections - and in this case of one author and not GDW as a whole.

And in the case of HW it was a dead end. Nothing came out of that module except a few articles in Challenge that could occur as they were even without HW.

It has already has been pointed out HW shot big time holes in previously released modules - i.e. they didnt even fact check their own stuff that good when they did it. They are infamous for that - i.e. the Challenge magazine article that has a nuclear sub commander in charge of the Hyman Rickover. If they had him then why wasnt he in Last Submarine.

Answer - because the authors probably didnt even read other peoples modules half the time.

You can defend canon all you want - but its flat out wrong here. And the mention of the BMP being with the 49th for years in the Soviet Vehicle Guide and eventually ending up at the HQ building at Fort Sill shows that other GDW authors thought the same thing, at least as far as the 49th Division and what would happen to it.

If 90th Corps is destroyed and they get driven out of OK then there is no Fort Sill left.

Some of the modules have stuff that makes no sense and shoudl be ignored - and frankly unless Far Future gets off the dime and starts issuing new modules we are the ones now who dictate the game, not GDW and not Far Future.

You can play it as you like and I hope you do so - but as far as I am concerned and for several others on the board the canon for the 49th needs to be changed - and in my game and campaigns and any modules or adventures I write it will be.

And again you can choose to ignore them and go with Mad Max - and if you do go right ahead and have fun doing so. I am not saying anyone has to do anything at all to canon if they dont want to.

Canon is what we make of it until we get new stuff otherwise from Far Future or whoever one day buys them out.

[Olefin]

Oh and to sum up yet another reason why Howling Wildnerness has issues, lets point this out:

They couldnt even keep track of the divisions they were having waste away in the space of two pages

On Page 16, the 85th Division is supposedly down to 300 men after absorbing 1000 replacements including 600 from Europe and as of April 2001 is at Fort Beauragard Louisiana

Now lets go to page 18

Here is says as of March 2001 the 85th was absorbed into the 197th and is part of it at Memphis

Meaning they couldnt even keep the story straight over the course of two pages - thats very bad editing and bad editing is indicative of a bad story.

As for reinforcements and those who say they couldnt get troops to the 49th. They got 600 to Louisiana but they couldnt get any to OK for the 49th? Its not that much further - if it was by ship then all they have to do is go up the river and a short overland trip. If it was by train same thing. If by land the same thing. Either you cant get men to the 85th or you get men to both divisions, simple as that.

So a rational military command structure decides you reinforce the 85th that had its head handed to it by a bunch of marauders but not the 49th that fought the Russians to a standstill and are the only armored force left between them and Colorado and is guarding basically the gas for the whole Midwest and Plains states (oh and by the way Colorado too). Ah no.

And the module states that they only used 1400 out of 43,000 men for reinforcements?

Ok so that means we were supposed to believe that MilGov, headed up by the military thas has fought a four year war decides to evacuate that many men, gives away hundreds of tanks, armored vehicles, artillery pieces, etc.., abandons who knows how many airplanes and helos as well to get them home. And then those same leaders who just literally gave away equipment that would take 20 years to rebuild even if they had the power and the factories to build them in order to get those men home, then uses a grand total of 3 PERCENT of them as reinforcements and allows the other 97 PERCENT to desert or go to waste and not use them?

yes its a game - but its a game grounded in reality - and Howling Wilderness is a total deluded fantasy if that is what the orginal authors wanted us to accept without question.

Thats what Chico and the others in the DC group were saying all along, that it was time to put HW and Kidnapped on the shelf and start over again at April of 2001 and make a timeline that made sense.

As for those who said they sat down and war gamed it first, I say this.

If the authors, some of whom either are or were on this board, war gamed a situation where 97 percent of evacuated US troops desert or were allowed to go to waste and they considered that realistic then one of two events happened. Either they either had some serious issues with the US military or they were seriously not thinking straight at the time.

That is not a rational event. Frankly I would believe an alien invasion before I would believe that.

Either the game is a rational one or its not. I loved Paranoia - it was a great game but rational it wasnt. I loved Harpoon - a great game and totally rational. Its high time a rational event replaced the irrationality of the events of Feb thru April of 2001 as portrayed in Howling Wildnernes and Kidnapped and both of them got put on the same shelf with City of Angels - i.e. the rewrite shelf.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The main problem is transporting them there. TF34 as far as we know had little more than fumes in the tank upon landing on the east coast, and the engines certainly aren't in a good way after burning unrefined crude. As much as the US might have wanted more oil from the Germans, I just can't see them parting with a drop more than they absolutely had to. So, with sea transport effectively out of the question, overland is the only way to go.

Sail, my friend. Sail. The East Coast may not have an abundance of clipper ships in 1997, but there are hundreds of thousands of single mast sailing vessels in operation from Bar Harbor to Brownsville at the end of 1997. The majority of them aren’t going to be available anymore at the end of 2000. However, 200 of them each carrying 5 troops in addition to the normal crew could move 1,000 soldiers to the mouth of the Atchafalaya River during the winter of 2000-2001.

Once the nukes start popping in Europe and Asia in mid-1997, the US Navy is going to take a very keen interest in the nation’s fleet of sailing vessels. We could talk all day about the variety of possible arrangements for making them available after the TDM. That would make an interesting thread. At any rate, moving 1,000 soldiers from Norfolk to Louisiana using small sailing vessels would take some planning and some organizing, to be sure. Fortunately, the Operation Omega orders are issued well in advance of the TF Omega departure date.

Getting the troops up the river to Oklahoma will take some fuel for the barges. But the barges are going to have to go upriver anyway, since the petroleum is in Oklahoma and southern Illinois. The sailing vessels can move upriver to wherever Milgov is offloading its barges with oil. There the troops disembark, then re-embark aboard barges returning to Tulsa, OK and Cairo, IL for more petroleum. Getting everything to fit is a potential challenge, but one that a small staff of logistics types and boatswain’s mates should be able to handle.

Of course, there are limits. The available fleet of single mast ships is doing something to earn their keep in late 2000. At the very least, they can bring in fish and haul (very) light cargo. Sending large numbers of these ships to Louisiana means foregoing whatever activities they were performing before the arrival of the troops from Europe until they return to Norfolk. This will hurt. So it may not be practical to send 10,000 troops up the Mississippi, even were Milgov so inclined. Right now, though, I have no idea where practical limits on sail transport might be set between 1,000 and 10,000 troops.

[Olefin]

I agree totally with you Webstral. And we know there are ships making the run from Norfolk to at least the Texas area.

Why - because its canon. Its how the characters got to Texas from Norfolk in Red Star, Lone Star.

So if they can catch a ship, so can the reinforcements.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I am not talking about steam ships - I am talking about steam locomotives.

Check back over the old threads. We've discussed the use of rail before and it's been shown as unfeasible until significant reconstruction of infrastructure (ie the rail lines themselves) has been completed.
Additionally, there's problems with marauders, petty dictators, New America, and sooooo many more issues we could discuss just them alone for a month!

Originally Posted by Olefin

But if guys can do it in Poland in Going Home they can sure as hell do it in the US.

Yes, Going Home does have that. It also shows us some of the problems such as destroyed bridges, ripped up lines, etc. Furthermore, the PC group isn't expecting to have to hold any portion of the line for longer than it takes to actually roll over it - ie about a mile ahead of the train and about half a mile behind.
In the US, Milgov (and Civgov) aren't going to be devoting resources to reconstruction if their work will be torn up the moment their backs are turned. Troops and resources are needed to secure the lines, guard the trains, set up rest and refuelling stops. Just protecting and servicing a hundred miles of track when the countryside is hostile is going to take a LOT of manpower and resources.

So sure, a single train may get through, maybe even a few trains, but the moment a hostile group realises trains are running again, you can bet an ambush will be set up. It's a LOT easier to attack a train than it is a convoy of trucks too - the train can't divert to an alternate route.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Frankly no military would be that stupid to not reinforce that division and make it a priority.

Once again, perhaps there wasn't a NEED for reinforcement early enough to plan for part of TF34 to divert there. Also, getting troops from the east coast, as already discussed, is fraught with difficulties.
It's all well and good to say something ought to be done, it's another to organise the logistics for it.

Originally Posted by Olefin

And before you go all canon on me - the game basically stopped in mid April of 2001 as far as the US goes. There were a few isolated Challenge articles but thats it. Any projections in HW are just that - projections - and in this case of one author and not GDW as a whole.

Reread my earlier comments. I'm not saying reinforcements will never get to the 49th AD, just that they're not getting there before April 2001.

Originally Posted by Olefin

i.e. the Challenge magazine article that has a nuclear sub commander in charge of the Hyman Rickover. If they had him then why wasnt he in Last Submarine.

Umm, perhaps because he wasn't in the area at the time he was needed? Perhaps he was better utilised where he was?

Originally Posted by Olefin

You can defend canon all you want - but its flat out wrong here.

In your opinion. Others, many others who have spent decades studying and developing the game strongly disagree with you.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Some of the modules have stuff that makes no sense and should be ignored.

Again, your opinion. As has been stated time and time again, the apparent problems can be worked through and explained. It just takes a little time and effort. Sure, it's easier to simply throw out what you don't like and start fresh, and everyone's entitled to do that if they wish, but nobody is entitled to declare everyone else must follow suit!

Originally Posted by Olefin

As for reinforcements and those who say they couldnt get troops to the 49th.

Sigh....
It's a timing and logistical issue...

Originally Posted by Olefin

And the module states that they only used 1400 out of 43,000 men for reinforcements?

Check on the various threads where this has already been discussed. To summarise, not all those 43,000 actually went to the US, many were not military (dependants), a number weren't army, and then there's the crippled who are not longer suitable for military service.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Thats what Chico and the others in the DC group were saying all along, that it was time to put HW and Kidnapped on the shelf and start over again at April of 2001 and make a timeline that made sense.

Umm, what?
Ignore Howling Wilderness, which details the situation up to April 2001, and start fresh at April 2001?

Originally Posted by Olefin

As for those who said they sat down and war gamed it first

It's not a claim, it's a fact.

Originally Posted by Webstral

Sail, my friend.

Sail does seem to be the most likely method and you've already covered most of the important problems. The first transportation by sail might take a while to organise - gathering the necessary boats and crews, ensuring they aren't needed for fishing (which will be a major problem given the sudden influx of people to feed). There may only be enough boats excess to minimum survival requirements to shift a few hundred people at a time which would mean several journeys down around Florida and back and all the dangers that entails.

Originally Posted by Webstral

Fortunately, the Operation Omega orders are issued well in advance of the TF Omega departure date.

No doubt, however planning (as discussed elsewhere) is unlikely to begin until after July 2000. The 49th AD's (for example) need for reinforcement may not become apparent until October or later, well too late for significant changes to the Omega plan. It may take even longer to communicate their need to where the "available" troops are, further delaying the possible reinforcement.

Originally Posted by Olefin

And we know there are ships making the run from Norfolk to at least the Texas area.

Yes, we do know there is some shipping. We don't see much evidence of them being particularly large, or large enough to carry more than a few dozen people at a time.

[Olefin]

If the train network in Poland, a country that has been fought over by armies for four years by multiple armies and nuked a lot more intensively than the US was, plus literally thousands of conventional air strikes, was intact enough for a party of player characters to take a train across half the country a few weeks then MilGov can get trains to OK from Norfolk easily enough.

Or you can take ships to LA and then go from there overland easily enough, even if the reinforcments originally particpated in the Ozark operation and then went on from there to OK with New America out of the way.

Or they could have gone by train to Chicago and then from there followed the same path that the 400 guys sent by the 194th followed to get to Louisiana.

Or per the Ozarks module they could have gone to Memphis and then by road convoy to the 49th.

Sorry Leg but your arguments dont work here.

If they can reinforce the 85th from units in IL and Norfolk they can reinforce the 49th.

Oh and any ship that is carrying cargo can carry a lot of men - and the ships described in Red Star, Lone Star could clearly carry a lot of men. These arent fishing boats, they are freighters. If you can carry freight you can carry hundreds of men in its place.


And the 49th being out of communication as to them needing reinforcements is non-sensical. Especially considering the location of that division relative to the Colorado HQ and the fact that the division is providing fuel to the entire Midwest and Plains states.