Vehicle suggestions

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

That isn't really my point at all - my point is that the post-apocalyptic landscape is effectively an unknown territory, and like any unknown territory you need to bring anything you need with you. The relative scarcity of M1114 parts is irrelevant if finding them is a happy coincidence but not at all necessary. The most important factor should be the ability of the part or vehicle to perform the job, the supply chain is then built to support it.

No one is saying that this is the case………… It is just helpful that the same parts used on dumptrucks, moving vans, car haulers, tow trucks, beverage delivery trucks, and so; can be found at any heavy diesel truck dealership. What is your Team going to do? Wait for someone to journey to the regional base or unmanned delta base that may be a 1000 miles away? Then bring it back along with the tools and equipment to repair it? Have you noticed a maintenance and support job skillset in 3rd edition somewhere that I have missed? Yes, the Morrow Project is going to stock parts and even manufacture parts because the factories in the major cities were nuked and/or there are no longer power plants or a power grid to run them. Doesn’t make sense to totally ignore thousands of diesel mechanics; and hundreds of repair shops in small towns that do not attract the attention of soviet ICBM targeting when planning your post-apocalyptic recovery operations with a 3-5 year startup. Granted the casualtie will be high among those civilians, that equipment though is going to be sitting there useless without a power grid. Hundreds of these can be MI front companies for MP repair and recovery operations… Especially ones that can assist in getting civilian assets like garbage trucks, fire trucks, tow trucks, delivery trucks, and such running…….. F550s are common as hell.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Besides, those parts are also part of what you are going to use to rebuild society, and parts that they themselves may well have already scavenged. If there are F550 parts around, I would want and expect to see them used in non-Project vehicles by non-Project personnel!

I don’t think that the Project was planning on scavenging to keep its own fleet operational. From a civilian fleet managers persceptive, it makes a great deal of sense to use what is already being manufactured, with known quantities and properties, when planning and purchasing your own fleet. From a costs perspective this makes complete sense and the MP is a bunch of altruistic nerdy idealists.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Exactly. And that should include not only a good supply of repair parts but also facilities for producing more.

No one says there isn’t. It is a long walk back to the regional base or to get to a delta base just for spare parts. Wouldn’t it be better if you could trade with a local heavy diesel mechanic for the labor and parts just for his/her expertise; and because that person has the shop and tools? Makes for good role play too.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I just think that if F550 parts are being used by the Project, the rationale would not have to do with ability to find parts, post-Apocalypse, from non-Morrow sources.

And how did this become mutually exclusive? By that rationale, the Project should be using U.S. military equipment that would better used restoring order and lawful government authority.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

A valid point, but there are lots of ways to handle this. And in the end, TMP is one of those games where players are naturally and reasonably going to want to spend a lot of time in their vehicles.
Getting them out for non-combat should be a non-issue, and getting them out for combat isn't that hard.

Heh, I had to destroy the V-150 to get the role playing going……. I literally could not get the PCs to leave the machine…….. They would find some way to drive there with weapons out the firing ports or would not go. They drove away from most encounters…….. It was pure frustration from the GM stand point.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

No one is saying that this is the case………… It is just helpful that the same parts used on dumptrucks, moving vans, car haulers, tow trucks, beverage delivery trucks, and so; can be found at any heavy diesel truck dealership. What is your Team going to do? Wait for someone to journey to the regional base or unmanned delta base that may be a 1000 miles away?

First, why would bases be so scattered? I mean, we only see one in the official modules, but how does that show us their actual density? Second, what are the odds that the part that you need is even going to be available at a truck garage anyway? Bearing in mind that the only parts that are likely to be interchangeable will be suspension parts anyway, it seems just as likely that you could jury-rig something as needed rather than find a direct replacement. And then yes, get the parts sent from the Project.

I should note that, related to this, I never, NEVER had all my players in one MPV. Big risk for any team, more than seems reasonable to bear.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Hundreds of these can be MI front companies for MP repair and recovery operations… Especially ones that can assist in getting civilian assets like garbage trucks, fire trucks, tow trucks, delivery trucks, and such running…….. F550s are common as hell.

If they are fronts for the Project, why is this an issue? Heck, they could stock deuterium if that is the case!

Realistically, you cannot have a fleet of vehicles without establishing a logistical support network. Parts should and would be pre-positioned based on the likelihood and consequence of failure, whether that was at bases or just in supply caches at the Group-level. Likewise, whether we see them or not, the tools and skills would have to be there too, even if the entirety of repair in TMP is limited to two skills!

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

From a civilian fleet managers persceptive, it makes a great deal of sense to use what is already being manufactured, with known quantities and properties, when planning and purchasing your own fleet. From a costs perspective this makes complete sense and the MP is a bunch of altruistic nerdy idealists.

But this is not a civilian fleet, it is a completely different conundrum with completely different assumptions. Plus, I cannot see why cost would be a factor here - the boss is a time traveler, there is no reason why the Project should not have had a finger in every major investment and development in the US. Heck, I would believe it if half the gambling winnings in this country were secretly funneled to Project accounts!

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Wouldn’t it be better if you could trade with a local heavy diesel mechanic for the labor and parts just for his/her expertise; and because that person has the shop and tools? Makes for good role play too.

I agree that it makes for good roleplay, but I would use that as jury-rigging - finding the spring or wheel bearing that is "close enough", banging and cutting it into shape, and then living with the reduced performance and questionable reliability until they get the correct part from command.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

And how did this become mutually exclusive? By that rationale, the Project should be using U.S. military equipment that would better used restoring order and lawful government authority.

It isn't necessarily mutually exclusive, but it's kind of like saying you want to build an air force based on commercially-available civilian parts - there are going to be a few places here and there where you can get away with it, but for the most part that F-14 just isn't going to take that Cessna altimeter! The ease of getting parts doesn't matter if those parts perform poorly and constantly fail because they are being overtaxed.

As a side note, when I did my last redo of the TOE, I started with the assumption that everything was based around the "current" US inventory - it would allow for easier movement and generally higher trust. That having been said, it would be mostly about appearances, with many differences compared to the issue vehicles.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Heh, I had to destroy the V-150 to get the role playing going……. I literally could not get the PCs to leave the machine…….. They would find some way to drive there with weapons out the firing ports or would not go. They drove away from most encounters…….. It was pure frustration from the GM stand point.

Eh, if they really want to not do anything, I can wait them out. After a few ransacked, burned villages, they start to get the idea that they either have to adapt and take risks, or have a game whether they are just tourists to disaster. In which case, planning gets really easy!!

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

First, why would bases be so scattered? I mean, we only see one in the official modules, but how does that show us their actual density?

We have Prime base, Delta Base (Starnaman) , Commo base KA (Final Watch), VB-1 medical (Final Watch), Commo Base KE (American Outback), Agricultural base TA-14 (Fall Back), Power station TN-7, Water station TN-6 (Desert Search). All of them are well concealed and very far off from urban centers or .gov landmarks. The Ag base is the only one besides Prime with the ability to perform repairs on vehicles. Bases are small, typically unmanned and far, far from urban areas under the most orchestrated of deception projects.

One of the most important, regional bases has not been presented in a module just yet.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Second, what are the odds that the part that you need is even going to be available at a truck garage anyway? Bearing in mind that the only parts that are likely to be interchangeable will be suspension parts anyway, it seems just as likely that you could jury-rig something as needed rather than find a direct replacement. And then yes, get the parts sent from the Project.

Not at all. What even gives you that idea in the first place? This is specifically why the engineers are using the F550 as the platform for this vehicle……… Suspension, wheels, hubs, drivetrain, transmission, differentials, wiring components, seats, seatbelts, lighting…….. better than 50% of this vehicle (I’ll have to read their website again) is off the shelf to make it more attractive to the typical buyer. City police departments and .gov agencies. The MP is going to swap the diesel motor for an electric one and a fusion plant of the same dimensions…… same transmission. Not even the DoD tries to have parts exclusive only to one vehicle wherever possible…… Tail lights and headlights being something that is universal across all land platforms.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I should note that, related to this, I never, NEVER had all my players in one MPV. Big risk for any team, more than seems reasonable to bear.

Which however, is very MP…….. only Damocles and Lonestar starts with the PCs in more than one MPV.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

If they are fronts for the Project, why is this an issue? Heck, they could stock deuterium if that is the case!

It isn’t canon but, we speculate all the time who and what is the Council of Tomorrow. Where else did they ready for the War besides directly into boltholes and secret bases……… All the bases are far, far away from where things would be needed most in the 3-5 year plan. Owning a truck stop chain with multiple locations along primary and secondary routes always with 20 miles of a major city, large town, or important piece of infrastructure gives a group a level of support locally.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Realistically, you cannot have a fleet of vehicles without establishing a logistical support network. Parts should and would be pre-positioned based on the likelihood and consequence of failure, whether that was at bases or just in supply caches at the Group-level. Likewise, whether we see them or not, the tools and skills would have to be there too, even if the entirety of repair in TMP is limited to two skills!

You can’t burden the Team down with more equipment……. The vehicle load is already ridiculous with ammo and gear…… the most common “parts” in a cache are V-150 tires….. which is stupid…… These are the same size as 5 tons and dumptrucks.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

But this is not a civilian fleet, it is a completely different conundrum with completely different assumptions. Plus,

This is a civilian fleet. The MP project is a completely civilian venture……….. These people are not military or government; financed and run by altruistic businessmen…….. There is every indication it was run as they know how, like a corporation.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I cannot see why cost would be a factor here - the boss is a time traveler, there is no reason why the Project should not have had a finger in every major investment and development in the US. Heck, I would believe it if half the gambling winnings in this country were secretly funneled to Project accounts!

I discussed this with Richard Tucholka once via skype. The Morrow Project is one dimension of all the dimensions in games created by Richard and Tri Tac games……… Now, Richard will say that MP belongs to Timeline and Chris Garland (and has to me) but, when it was his………….. Bruce Morrow is a dimensional traveler, he doesn’t always get back to the correct dimension at the correct point in time…… So what he does in one, prevent the War, in another all is lost, another MP functions flawlessly, in another it is despotic…….. there is an infinite number of earths.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I agree that it makes for good roleplay, but I would use that as jury-rigging - finding the spring or wheel bearing that is "close enough", banging and cutting it into shape, and then living with the reduced performance and questionable reliability until they get the correct part from command.

You would not be unless we are talking about the armor, bullet resistant glass, or NBC system……. Everything possible would be stock F550.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

It isn't necessarily mutually exclusive, but it's kind of like saying you want to build an air force based on commercially-available civilian parts - there are going to be a few places here and there where you can get away with it, but for the most part that F-14 just isn't going to take that Cessna altimeter! The ease of getting parts doesn't matter if those parts perform poorly and constantly fail because they are being overtaxed.

This is totally a strawman……. A stryker isn’t a tank even with a 105mm on top either.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

As a side note, when I did my last redo of the TOE, I started with the assumption that everything was based around the "current" US inventory - it would allow for easier movement and generally higher trust. That having been said, it would be mostly about appearances, with many differences compared to the issue vehicles.

Which isn’t consistent with 3rd edition and your own home brew……… Canon has teams and equipment begin being placed in boltholes in the 60s and 70s with an equipment update in 1985 for a war in 1989.

You can’t expect to argue your homebrew system or timeline argument with us…… We like to hear it for sure, but everyone has their own. Canon is the only thing we have in common……. And that can be debated tirelessly.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Eh, if they really want to not do anything, I can wait them out. After a few ransacked, burned villages, they start to get the idea that they either have to adapt and take risks, or have a game whether they are just tourists to disaster. In which case, planning gets really easy!!

That gets tedious by the third session for me (the GM)…… have to form that connection with NPCs to get them out………. The woman screaming in the woods didn’t even work to lure them out and be heroes……. So the girl did get eaten by ritualistic cannibals versus being saved by the brave MP team.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

We have Prime base, Delta Base (Starnaman) , Commo base KA (Final Watch), VB-1 medical (Final Watch), Commo Base KE (American Outback), Agricultural base TA-14 (Fall Back), Power station TN-7, Water station TN-6 (Desert Search). All of them are well concealed and very far off from urban centers or .gov landmarks. The Ag base is the only one besides Prime with the ability to perform repairs on vehicles. Bases are small, typically unmanned and far, far from urban areas under the most orchestrated of deception projects.

We have a pretty small sample size to be declaring any certainty in canon. Yes, the bases avoided major targets - i.e., military bases and cities. But we don't really have a great idea how densely packed everything is in the "safe zones", and when you really come down to it, that is where the heart of the Project has to be. Can't do much more than recon Chicago until you have a logistics chain able to reach into the city.

And again, canon lets us down - I have absolutely no idea who the heck TN-7 and TN-6 were meant to serve. Their placement seems absolutely pointless.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Not at all. What even gives you that idea in the first place? This is specifically why the engineers are using the F550 as the platform for this vehicle……… Suspension, wheels, hubs, drivetrain, transmission, differentials, wiring components, seats, seatbelts, lighting…….. better than 50% of this vehicle (I’ll have to read their website again) is off the shelf to make it more attractive to the typical buyer.

Suspension, wheels, and hubs: I already mentioned as being reasonably compatible, but also the kind of thing where you could stock spares easily.

Drivetrain, transmission, differentials, wiring components: All are tossed when you talk about MPV's and other electric vehicles - something that the real world vehicle does not have to address!

Seatbelts and lighting: Absolutely compatible, but hardly mission critical. If you can't bodge up a replacement seat and a set of lights, then the problem isn't parts, it's know-how.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

City police departments and .gov agencies. The MP is going to swap the diesel motor for an electric one and a fusion plant of the same dimensions…… same transmission.

Don't need or want a transmission with an electric motor. Just one more thing to fail for no real advantage.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Not even the DoD tries to have parts exclusive only to one vehicle wherever possible…… Tail lights and headlights being something that is universal across all land platforms.

Sure, but the DoD doesn't demand compatibility with civilian platforms. They like it, but every RFP I have seen has placed such concerns secondary to a bunch of other factors.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Which however, is very MP…….. only Damocles and Lonestar starts with the PCs in more than one MPV.

I know - personal switch. The presumed size of the Project with the actual size of the US suggests that one MPV-teams are going to die at (to me) an unacceptable rate waiting for that other team a hundred miles away to get the message and get there. You won't have much time to wait if the reason for vehicle failure is "enemy fire".

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

It isn’t canon but, we speculate all the time who and what is the Council of Tomorrow. Where else did they ready for the War besides directly into boltholes and secret bases……… All the bases are far, far away from where things would be needed most in the 3-5 year plan. Owning a truck stop chain with multiple locations along primary and secondary routes always with 20 miles of a major city, large town, or important piece of infrastructure gives a group a level of support locally.

Great! So stash a cache in those facilities - why does that require compatibility with civilian vehicles?

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

You can’t burden the Team down with more equipment……. The vehicle load is already ridiculous with ammo and gear…… the most common “parts” in a cache are V-150 tires….. which is stupid…… These are the same size as 5 tons and dumptrucks.

So edit the gear. The lists in the books were made by, well, game designers. Real engineers and strategists would have an idea of how often parts would fail in combat and non-combat use, and would distribute spares accordingly. So adjust the caches. You don't have to give details - just list "MPV repair parts", and decide on a case-by-case basis if that should be there. And if that sounds arbitrary it is no more so than deciding that this truck mechanic happens to have a 2009 automatic 5-speed F550 transmission!

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

This is a civilian fleet. The MP project is a completely civilian venture……….. These people are not military or government; financed and run by altruistic businessmen…….. There is every indication it was run as they know how, like a corporation.

A civilian fleet with machineguns and anti-tank missiles and armored personnel carriers and with a high percentage of military veterans. Defense contractors are also completely civilian ventures run by businessmen... but if this is their job, they learn about it and listen to experts. This is literally a fate-of-the-world venture, why would there be any amateurism about it?

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I discussed this with Richard Tucholka once via skype. The Morrow Project is one dimension of all the dimensions in games created by Richard and Tri Tac games……… Now, Richard will say that MP belongs to Timeline and Chris Garland (and has to me) but, when it was his………….. Bruce Morrow is a dimensional traveler, he doesn’t always get back to the correct dimension at the correct point in time…… So what he does in one, prevent the War, in another all is lost, another MP functions flawlessly, in another it is despotic…….. there is an infinite number of earths.

Okay... had not heard that before. Interesting variation which implies that Morrow appears only once? That is rather tragic, as it implies that everything is futile...

Regardless, certain trends would be safe and at least as consistent as the war itself - "this is a computer and the components - watch for these and invest heavily" or "these are some ideas that technology can enable - this thing called facebook makes a killing, so either invest in it, or start it!"

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

You would not be unless we are talking about the armor, bullet resistant glass, or NBC system……. Everything possible would be stock F550.

And I just don't think a stock F550 is going to be up to the demands of the Project. It's a cost-saving measure, not a performance measure. And with the Project, performance has to come first!

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

This is totally a strawman……. A stryker isn’t a tank even with a 105mm on top either.

No it isn't, but there is a reason it isn't built on an F550, either! Seriously, even mid-grade military components are built to performance standards that leave non-competitive civilian counterparts way behind. And the Stryker and Hummer are built on the assumption that one of the largest logistical operations in the history is maybe 10-20 miles away ready to offer a rescue and repairs. An F550 is built under even milder assumptions.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Which isn’t consistent with 3rd edition and your own home brew……… Canon has teams and equipment begin being placed in boltholes in the 60s and 70s with an equipment update in 1985 for a war in 1989.

It actually IS consistent with my current homebrew - the only vehicles I use that are not current US inventory are the Science-One (because I couldn't figure out a replacement and wanted it in the game) and the JLTV, which I fudged as being "very-near-future" US inventory.

And canon makes no sense here*. Why waste resources building equipment that will never be used when you have a rough estimate of when the war happens? Build training mockups, build the actual vehicles later. The whole update plan is absurd. They can build freeze tubes and fusion reactors, but they can't build an MPV their first time around??

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

That gets tedious by the third session for me (the GM)…… have to form that connection with NPCs to get them out………. The woman screaming in the woods didn’t even work to lure them out and be heroes……. So the girl did get eaten by ritualistic cannibals versus being saved by the brave MP team.

I've never had this problem. I've always been able to get the characters out of the vehicles if I needed them out, and have always tried to give them realistic options and consequences of their behaviors, and if they didn't get it after a few tries I don't think I would keep going with that campaign. Not every group of players get every game, and if they really aren't getting it by the third session then this is not the game for them!

*: Or any other places, either. TMP was, IMO, a great idea, but it was poorly executed. More than any other game, this system and story leave me scratching my head. It exists solely as a puzzle, not for realism, and the problem with that is that puzzles are notoriously hard to expand on if they don't make sense!

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

We have a pretty small sample size to be declaring any certainty in canon. Yes, the bases avoided major targets - i.e., military bases and cities. But we don't really have a great idea how densely packed everything is in the "safe zones", and when you really come down to it, that is where the heart of the Project has to be. Can't do much more than recon Chicago until you have a logistics chain able to reach into the city.

We know that the logistics system started at the top with Prime Base coordinating. The Regional bases are approximately ten in number, and that these were supplemented by an unknown number of unmanned Delta bases, plus Team caches. This indicates that there are not a lot of bases……… consolidation of the resources being consistent with a CEO / Corporate Board approach to running an operation.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

And again, canon lets us down - I have absolutely no idea who the heck TN-7 and TN-6 were meant to serve. Their placement seems absolutely pointless.

TN-7 is a power plant that will aid in the recovery of Las Vegas, Hoover Dam, and that portion of western AZ and southern CA. In addition, TN-7 is supposed to broadcast power up to Morrowsat that will direct that power in the form or microwaves to a power reception team. That is presumably to jump start recovery anywhere the grid is down, or restart a plant such as a nuke power plant from a cold start. There is one power reception team in Seattle.

TN-6 is clean drinking water and water for agriculture surrounding Las Vegas as the Colorado probably wasn’t going to be usable in the 3-5 year plan.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Suspension, wheels, and hubs: I already mentioned as being reasonably compatible, but also the kind of thing where you could stock spares easily.

Yes, you can. In what quantity? How do you predict wear in a post apocalypse? How do you plan to position spares, when you cannot predict what is destroyed by Soviet ICBMs? Making them cross compatible with commercial systems fits with the plan to assist lawful civilian government. The Project has a lot of resources but, doesn’t have anywhere close to the number of personnel required. It was essential to the Project to aid the survivors but, get the survivors working and assisting in their own recovery. The Morrow Project is hundreds of personnel at best. Prime Base is the largest with only 250, and Combined Group Seattle is 79 persons for a metropolitan area which could have 100,000 survivors.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Drivetrain, transmission, differentials, wiring components: All are tossed when you talk about MPV's and other electric vehicles - something that the real world vehicle does not have to address!

No, they are not. Purpose built electric vehicles in some cases, which is part of why they are ridiculously expensive…. Each part is custom and particular to them.

An MPV is a engine conversion only….. the drive affects the transmission, then the differentials, then the drivetrain, then the hubs if it has them. That way you retain the offroad performance. It is only an engine swap.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Seatbelts and lighting: Absolutely compatible, but hardly mission critical. If you can't bodge up a replacement seat and a set of lights, then the problem isn't parts, it's know-how.

It is when you have to manufacture or purchase in complete secrecy and completely off books. Hiding and extra 20 transmissions in a fleet purchase of 100 or 1000 is far easier than 20 transmissions that fit nothing in your inventory.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Don't need or want a transmission with an electric motor. Just one more thing to fail for no real advantage.

In conversion you do. The drive train is still there, these are not electric motor hubs.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Sure, but the DoD doesn't demand compatibility with civilian platforms. They like it, but every RFP I have seen has placed such concerns secondary to a bunch of other factors.

The manufacturer does it anyway. The engines, transmissions and most of the components are compatible with heavy hauling or construction equipment. Those Cummins and Continental diesels are very common out there on job sites. This, transmissions, alternators, shocks, springs, gears, exhaust systems…… When an RFP comes out that a defense manufacturer can’t just pull of the shelf to meet the specifications the manufacturer demands money and lets the government pay for the R&D. The manufacturer then uses that knowledge to improve their civilian line and market to those that can use them…………. Those big diesel pickups everywhere right now are using engines found in Humvees.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I know - personal switch. The presumed size of the Project with the actual size of the US suggests that one MPV-teams are going to die at (to me) an unacceptable rate waiting for that other team a hundred miles away to get the message and get there. You won't have much time to wait if the reason for vehicle failure is "enemy fire".

The Combined Groups were supposed to operate together…….. The only one out on a limb here realistically is Recon.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Great! So stash a cache in those facilities - why does that require compatibility with civilian vehicles?

Cost…….. the Project has to buy a lot of vehicles and a lot of spares. You can have ten Strykers for $1.5 million apiece or you can have 150 of these. Do you sideline Project Members because you could not procure enough Strykers…… Strykers are big fat hippos that don’t do well in urban or dense forest terrain.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

So edit the gear. The lists in the books were made by, well, game designers. Real engineers and strategists would have an idea of how often parts would fail in combat and non-combat use, and would distribute spares accordingly. So adjust the caches. You don't have to give details - just list "MPV repair parts", and decide on a case-by-case basis if that should be there. And if that sounds arbitrary it is no more so than deciding that this truck mechanic happens to have a 2009 automatic 5-speed F550 transmission!

Which is a GM choice for gameplay but, your average MP gamer is obsessive about detail and demands reasonable, plausible explanations for why, and how things are.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

A civilian fleet with machineguns and anti-tank missiles and armored personnel carriers and with a high percentage of military veterans. Defense contractors are also completely civilian ventures run by businessmen... but if this is their job, they learn about it and listen to experts. This is literally a fate-of-the-world venture, why would there be any amateurism about it?

Actually look at 3rd again…… without fudging rolls of the dice, it isn’t that easy to be a veteran outside of MARS. The only veteran MP character I can think of without going throught modules with a comb is the leader of TN-7.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Okay... had not heard that before. Interesting variation which implies that Morrow appears only once? That is rather tragic, as it implies that everything is futile...

It means that he tries but, the circumstances are different in each variation. That and it seems that like the Terminator series, the War is inevitable, all he can affect is how much is preserved and how well the recovery performs. He is doing the same thing in more than one dimension on more than one earth trying to affect variations of war, nuclear war, and bio warfare.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Regardless, certain trends would be safe and at least as consistent as the war itself - "this is a computer and the components - watch for these and invest heavily" or "these are some ideas that technology can enable - this thing called facebook makes a killing, so either invest in it, or start it!"

In some of the Canon materials Bruce is a brilliant financial investor and that is how he gets it started and brings the Council of Tomorrow together. There is only one Bruce and he has other things to do.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

And I just don't think a stock F550 is going to be up to the demands of the Project. It's a cost-saving measure, not a performance measure. And with the Project, performance has to come first!

I don’t…… In the 3-5 year plan highways and roads are still going to be there. Only in the bombed out areas are you going to need heavier and there is little sane reason to venture in.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

No it isn't, but there is a reason it isn't built on an F550, either! Seriously, even mid-grade military components are built to performance standards that leave non-competitive civilian counterparts way behind. And the Stryker and Hummer are built on the assumption that one of the largest logistical operations in the history is maybe 10-20 miles away ready to offer a rescue and repairs. An F550 is built under even milder assumptions.

Strykers and Humvees rely on mechanics organic to the unit operating them and larger maintenance unit in theater if not based out of the same locale……… Humvees break with the same or more regularity than anything on the street…… I would argue more so having operated heavy equipment….. A civilian company won’t buy parts from a shoddy manufacturer, the DoD is struck with whoever was the lowest bidder until bidding can open again. Seriously, where do you get this idea that Humvees are really robust? I drove and maintained M1025s and M1114s in the Army for 15 years……..It can be amazing how shitting the parts are.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

It actually IS consistent with my current homebrew - the only vehicles I use that are not current US inventory are the Science-One (because I couldn't figure out a replacement and wanted it in the game) and the JLTV, which I fudged as being "very-near-future" US inventory.

So how does your Project purchase or build hundreds of JLTVs in the 90s, when no one is using them? And it is a secret from the Government and the Public?

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

And canon makes no sense here*. Why waste resources building equipment that will never be used when you have a rough estimate of when the war happens? Build training mockups, build the actual vehicles later. The whole update plan is absurd. They can build freeze tubes and fusion reactors, but they can't build an MPV their first time around??

They don’t have such an estimate because the circumstance that can be the War are always evolving. They know it is going to happen but, the date still catches them unprepared. That is why there is bolt holes and caches from the 50s (Legacy, 4th) and the 60s and 70s (3rd).

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I've never had this problem. I've always been able to get the characters out of the vehicles if I needed them out, and have always tried to give them realistic options and consequences of their behaviors, and if they didn't get it after a few tries I don't think I would keep going with that campaign. Not every group of players get every game, and if they really aren't getting it by the third session then this is not the game for them!

Meh, I just couldn’t get them out of adventurer mode into builder/defender/preserver. Different mind set developed in other game systems.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

*: Or any other places, either. TMP was, IMO, a great idea, but it was poorly executed. More than any other game, this system and story leave me scratching my head. It exists solely as a puzzle, not for realism, and the problem with that is that puzzles are notoriously hard to expand on if they don't make sense!

It was written in the 70s when the only others was Aftermath and Gammaworld……. It is great for one shots and has rules and background enough for playing at GenCon and DragonCon. Who knows where is could have gone if the popularity and fan base had been larger.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The Morrow Project is hundreds of personnel at best. Prime Base is the largest with only 250, and Combined Group Seattle is 79 persons for a metropolitan area which could have 100,000 survivors.

Does that 250 number come from anywhere specific.

There are said to be 100 stations for personnel in the communications intercept suite alone.

I always assumed Prime had well over 1000 people. Maybe even 3000 or more.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by kato13

Does that 250 number come from anywhere specific.

There are said to be 100 stations for personnel in the communications intercept suite alone.

I always assumed Prime had well over 1000 people. Maybe even 3000 or more.

I will look at the text of the module but, I would swear the maximum population was 500 and it was undermanned when the war started.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Yes, you can. In what quantity? How do you predict wear in a post apocalypse? How do you plan to position spares, when you cannot predict what is destroyed by Soviet ICBMs?

First, the inability to be exact or even accurate does not mean you don't make an estimate. Second, you have control over your own stores, you don't have control over what survives on the surface, nor over what happens to those parts in the 5 years you're sleeping in the tubes.

On pg 12, 3rd edition, it indicates an expectation that civilian vehicles and weapons will be largely nonfunctional because of a lack of parts and an inability to manufacture new ones... this flies in the face of the "we'll find parts" argument.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Making them cross compatible with commercial systems fits with the plan to assist lawful civilian government.

Only if you intend to turn MPV's over to civilian government.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The Project has a lot of resources but, doesn’t have anywhere close to the number of personnel required. It was essential to the Project to aid the survivors but, get the survivors working and assisting in their own recovery. The Morrow Project is hundreds of personnel at best. Prime Base is the largest with only 250, and Combined Group Seattle is 79 persons for a metropolitan area which could have 100,000 survivors.

I know this was addressed by someone already, but unless there is some reason to believe that Seattle was either over or under represented in assignment of teams, TMP should have field personnel in the low tens of thousands, NOT counting any assets not assigned at the "group" level.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

No, they are not. Purpose built electric vehicles in some cases, which is part of why they are ridiculously expensive…. Each part is custom and particular to them.

An MPV is a engine conversion only….. the drive affects the transmission, then the differentials, then the drivetrain, then the hubs if it has them. That way you retain the offroad performance. It is only an engine swap.

Do you keep the exhaust system? Of course not! Why keep something that serves zero purpose and is dead weight? The transmission is even worse because it is not only useless but adds a point of failure in your drivetrain! You need the differentials and hubs, they serve a purpose in every vehicle, but with an electric motor you could literally replace the transmission with a straight rod and be far better off. And if you can build custom reactors and motors, that rod should be trivially easy.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

It is when you have to manufacture or purchase in complete secrecy and completely off books. Hiding and extra 20 transmissions in a fleet purchase of 100 or 1000 is far easier than 20 transmissions that fit nothing in your inventory.

My comment about seats and lighting is that you can make do with stock, or commercial, or whatever, because that equipment is not only not mission critical, the way they interface with the rest of the vehicle gives you lots of latitude in field repairs.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

In conversion you do. The drive train is still there, these are not electric motor hubs.

If you are doing the conversion in your garage, yes, you do. If you are doing it as a proof of concept for a few vehicles, sure. If you are doing it large-scale, no, you don't - it's a handicap that is too cheap and easy to remedy.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The manufacturer does it anyway. The engines, transmissions and most of the components are compatible with heavy hauling or construction equipment. Those Cummins and Continental diesels are very common out there on job sites. This, transmissions, alternators, shocks, springs, gears, exhaust systems…… When an RFP comes out that a defense manufacturer can’t just pull of the shelf to meet the specifications the manufacturer demands money and lets the government pay for the R&D. The manufacturer then uses that knowledge to improve their civilian line and market to those that can use them…………. Those big diesel pickups everywhere right now are using engines found in Humvees.

They're doing it for cost control, and only where they can still meet specifications. Often, they flow military to civilian as a way of spreading costs and also to provide an outlet for parts that don't meet milspec - just because the military thinks it inadequate doesn't mean that people won't buy the parts for less rigorous applications!

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The Combined Groups were supposed to operate together…….. The only one out on a limb here realistically is Recon.

Sure... but they are still tremendously spread out, considering the treacherous nature of post-apocalypse travel and the lack of air support. While the teams are supposed to support each other, they aren't necessarily supposed to travel together, disregarding cases like linked MARS/Science teams (although even they have separate boltholes!). And if your vehicle goes down, rescue requires that there be a team near enough to help, able to reach the area (which might preclude SK-5 teams), and able to provide the military, mechanical, or transport assistance you need before you die. I consider that a big risk for teams, but as I said, not the biggest issue.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Cost…….. the Project has to buy a lot of vehicles and a lot of spares. You can have ten Strykers for $1.5 million apiece or you can have 150 of these. Do you sideline Project Members because you could not procure enough Strykers…… Strykers are big fat hippos that don’t do well in urban or dense forest terrain.

I still don't see any reason to believe that TMP was or should be cost constrained. Nor do I see how the V-150 is a superior choice.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Which is a GM choice for gameplay but, your average MP gamer is obsessive about detail and demands reasonable, plausible explanations for why, and how things are.

How about because sometimes, mechanics don't have your part in stock. Or how about because a ton of other F550's, operating under conditions they were never meant to handle, have used up all the parts you are looking for? Or how about because parts are so rare and valuable that they aren't giving them up for anything the team is able and willing to part with?

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Actually look at 3rd again…… without fudging rolls of the dice, it isn’t that easy to be a veteran outside of MARS. The only veteran MP character I can think of without going throught modules with a comb is the leader of TN-7.

If we take the listed odds and apply them to CG Seattle, I get a total of 26 veterans, 14 with combat experience. That assumes 8 MARS (6 vets, 4 combat), 19 recon (10 vets, 5 combat), and 52 "other" (10 vets, 5 combat). That isn't that rare. 33% of CG Seattle are vets, and 18% have seen combat. I think they would have an idea what they were doing.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

In some of the Canon materials Bruce is a brilliant financial investor and that is how he gets it started and brings the Council of Tomorrow together. There is only one Bruce and he has other things to do.
I don’t…… In the 3-5 year plan highways and roads are still going to be there. Only in the bombed out areas are you going to need heavier and there is little sane reason to venture in.

He doesn't have much else to do, and regardless he doesn't need to have a ton of information for Morrow Industries to be wallowing in money. Nor is that information (even the generalities) hard to transport. Heck, even if the universes are pretty different, commercially lucrative inventions should still transfer with high fidelity - in other words, if Morrow Industries has Apple's OS and Google's algorithms and Facebook's idea, they can make a killing.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Strykers and Humvees rely on mechanics organic to the unit operating them and larger maintenance unit in theater if not based out of the same locale……… Humvees break with the same or more regularity than anything on the street…… I would argue more so having operated heavy equipment….. A civilian company won’t buy parts from a shoddy manufacturer, the DoD is struck with whoever was the lowest bidder until bidding can open again. Seriously, where do you get this idea that Humvees are really robust? I drove and maintained M1025s and M1114s in the Army for 15 years……..It can be amazing how shitting the parts are.

And the vehicles referenced here rely on mechanics as well, and operate under far, far gentler expectations. Police specs are usually in-between civilian and military specs. And Morrow is not the DoD - they don't have to buy shoddy parts either, especially since they are more likely to be making them.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

So how does your Project purchase or build hundreds of JLTVs in the 90s, when no one is using them? And it is a secret from the Government and the Public?

In my version (set a few years from now), they are building them in tandem with the official military vehicles - they wouldn't be secret. If I was setting the TMP in the 90's, then there would be extra Hummers being shipped around, which would be a heck of a lot less strange than a bunch of vehicles which have no business on US roads in the first place, like XR311's and V-150's.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

They don’t have such an estimate because the circumstance that can be the War are always evolving. They know it is going to happen but, the date still catches them unprepared. That is why there is bolt holes and caches from the 50s (Legacy, 4th) and the 60s and 70s (3rd).

I don't recall where it said that the rough date of the war was unknown.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

It was written in the 70s when the only others was Aftermath and Gammaworld……. It is great for one shots and has rules and background enough for playing at GenCon and DragonCon. Who knows where is could have gone if the popularity and fan base had been larger.

There are lots of reasons why the popularity was not high - a clunky system, a setting that didn't make a lot of sense to many people, etc. From what I have seen, the 4th edition does not really improve on this.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

First, the inability to be exact or even accurate does not mean you don't make an estimate. Second, you have control over your own stores, you don't have control over what survives on the surface, nor over what happens to those parts in the 5 years you're sleeping in the tubes.

True, to some extent. Heavy truck parts are not in common parts houses. You usually have to go to the dealer that specializes in heavy trucks and earthmoving equipment. If that is a corporate subsidiary that means it is a potential cache and/or the parts are in a supply system your team mechanic can reference.

More importantly it means there would have been mechanics and facilities around without electrical power miles from any nuclear target. The only threat to them is famine and plague.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

On pg 12, 3rd edition, it indicates an expectation that civilian vehicles and weapons will be largely nonfunctional because of a lack of parts and an inability to manufacture new ones... this flies in the face of the "we'll find parts" argument.

I interpret that as rough use and a lack of knowledge in how to maintain the equipment more than parts inavailable…… only 5% of the population is alive at War + one year roughly.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Only if you intend to turn MPV's over to civilian government.

Actually, I do….. the are police and fire models of the V-150, and I intend for Teams to release modified M151s and XR-311s.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I know this was addressed by someone already, but unless there is some reason to believe that Seattle was either over or under represented in assignment of teams, TMP should have field personnel in the low tens of thousands, NOT counting any assets not assigned at the "group" level.

Just to hard to recruit people to walk away from their lives completely.

When you wake your home is gone, your family is dead, your friends are dead. You can however save civilization…….. That kind of altruism isn’t common. There are people who do extraordinary things like soldiers but, they do expect to come home to their family someday.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Do you keep the exhaust system? Of course not! Why keep something that serves zero purpose and is dead weight? The transmission is even worse because it is not only useless but adds a point of failure in your drivetrain! You need the differentials and hubs, they serve a purpose in every vehicle, but with an electric motor you could literally replace the transmission with a straight rod and be far better off. And if you can build custom reactors and motors, that rod should be trivially easy.

For the 4x4, low gearing, and powering either axle.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

My comment about seats and lighting is that you can make do with stock, or commercial, or whatever, because that equipment is not only not mission critical, the way they interface with the rest of the vehicle gives you lots of latitude in field repairs.

ok, it wasn’t a good example for either of us. Conceded.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

If you are doing the conversion in your garage, yes, you do. If you are doing it as a proof of concept for a few vehicles, sure. If you are doing it large-scale, no, you don't - it's a handicap that is too cheap and easy to remedy.

You still need it for the transfer case and 4x4; plus, to take advantage of the power ranges, such as Low Low gear .

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

They're doing it for cost control, and only where they can still meet specifications. Often, they flow military to civilian as a way of spreading costs and also to provide an outlet for parts that don't meet milspec - just because the military thinks it inadequate doesn't mean that people won't buy the parts for less rigorous applications!

I think we agree here.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Sure... but they are still tremendously spread out, considering the treacherous nature of post-apocalypse travel and the lack of air support. While the teams are supposed to support each other, they aren't necessarily supposed to travel together, disregarding cases like linked MARS/Science teams (although even they have separate boltholes!). And if your vehicle goes down, rescue requires that there be a team near enough to help, able to reach the area (which might preclude SK-5 teams), and able to provide the military, mechanical, or transport assistance you need before you die. I consider that a big risk for teams, but as I said, not the biggest issue.

The impression I get from Desert Search is that everyone meets up, then become two vehicle teams at a minimum.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I still don't see any reason to believe that TMP was or should be cost constrained. Nor do I see how the V-150 is a superior choice.

Mostly, it is the cost effective choice….. I can be built using equipment and workers already on hand, plus new production can be explained away as repair parts for Singapore, Egypt, and U.S. police departments.

It is also cost effective when you need to field several hundred, have dozens for spares too.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

How about because sometimes, mechanics don't have your part in stock. Or how about because a ton of other F550's, operating under conditions they were never meant to handle, have used up all the parts you are looking for? Or how about because parts are so rare and valuable that they aren't giving them up for anything the team is able and willing to part with?

That is called and attack of life. Then you hunker down and wait for the part or parts to be delivered from the nearest base by some means. Sounds like a good chance to role play without the vehicles.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

If we take the listed odds and apply them to CG Seattle, I get a total of 26 veterans, 14 with combat experience. That assumes 8 MARS (6 vets, 4 combat), 19 recon (10 vets, 5 combat), and 52 "other" (10 vets, 5 combat). That isn't that rare. 33% of CG Seattle are vets, and 18% have seen combat. I think they would have an idea what they were doing.

According to “Fall Back” MARS is 25% military veterans and 75% law enforcement veterans…. Some being both.
That also has to take into account if their military experience as a veteran translates to the mission…….. A Navy veteran with experience as a signals guy on a AWACS may be no help at all in playing a ground attack…… except that he/she is more likely to keep their cool and follow through.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

He doesn't have much else to do, and regardless he doesn't need to have a ton of information for Morrow Industries to be wallowing in money. Nor is that information (even the generalities) hard to transport. Heck, even if the universes are pretty different, commercially lucrative inventions should still transfer with high fidelity - in other words, if Morrow Industries has Apple's OS and Google's algorithms and Facebook's idea, they can make a killing.

Not all of it can be spent on the Project…….. Morrow Industries still has to spend billions and trillions on the legitimate business to maintain the deception.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

And the vehicles referenced here rely on mechanics as well, and operate under far, far gentler expectations. Police specs are usually in-between civilian and military specs. And Morrow is not the DoD - they don't have to buy shoddy parts either, especially since they are more likely to be making them.

The Project is funded and staffed by civilians, as a purely civilian enterprise outside of government oversight or cooperation……. I expect a corporate mentality and not a military one…….. logistics more akin to Fedex than DoD.
Besides, no one has post apocalypse experience…….. it is all an educated guess.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

In my version (set a few years from now), they are building them in tandem with the official military vehicles - they wouldn't be secret. If I was setting the TMP in the 90's, then there would be extra Hummers being shipped around, which would be a heck of a lot less strange than a bunch of vehicles which have no business on US roads in the first place, like XR311's and V-150's.

I typically play 3rd with the 89 war date as a preference…. If I was moving the date back then, I would add Humvees and some other things…… but, I would keep the V-150S….. those are still in service overseas.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I don't recall where it said that the rough date of the war was unknown.

19 November, 1989 catches everyone by surprise even Prime Base…… Literally Bruce knows…… Morrow Project materials are on the CD with the game setting “Rogue 417” by Tri Tac games. It is a short story and worth the read for 3rd edition fans. Bruce seems to spend the day of the War saying good bye to the old world.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

There are lots of reasons why the popularity was not high - a clunky system, a setting that didn't make a lot of sense to many people, etc. From what I have seen, the 4th edition does not really improve on this.

I am not going to vent my frustrations about the 4th here….. See the economics thread for that. There was a deluge of games of all sorts and Morrow Project wasn’t as fancy as some of the others. It really is a niche player game though.