The Best That Never Was 2 (Prototypes)

[Draq]

I'm glad to see my threads actually matter enough for people to reply. Thanx guys.

[ArmySGT.]

[Draq]

In context of the later stages of the war, would it be more complicated to build casemated turrets or traditional ones?

[ArmySGT.]

[Brit]

Originally Posted by Brit

And when the Merkava was being developed I think it's turret was first fitted to an M48 or M60 hull... or was it the other way around?

There are some photos of that vehicle on this thread: http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling.../t/149626.aspx plus a line drawing of a 'what if?' Merkava variant.

[Brit]

Originally Posted by Draq

Or the m60 with a m1 turret

I think I've seen other names for it but that would / could be the M60-2000:

These are 'drawings' but there are photos on the web:

http://www.armedassault.info/index.p...id=1576&game=0

[Brit]

Something else I found. The M111 Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft.

(Found here: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index....light,m48.html & http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=4777.0 ).

[CDAT]

I would have loved to have seen one of the early thoughts for the M1 had made it. As I understand it early on the plan was to have the 25mm Bushmaster be the Coaxial so they could use it rather than the main gun against MICV.

[copeab]

A 25mm Bushmaster and a useful amount of ammo will eat up significantly mote turret space than a 7.62mm MG and it's ammo. What do you strip out of the turret to make room?

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Draq

In context of the later stages of the war, would it be more complicated to build casemated turrets or traditional ones?

Historically, assault guns/tank destroyers with casemate mounts are cheaper to build than tanks built on the same hull, but are more limited tactic a lly.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by copeab

A 25mm Bushmaster and a useful amount of ammo will eat up significantly mote turret space than a 7.62mm MG and it's ammo. What do you strip out of the turret to make room?

Now how much ammo is needed to be "Useful"? If you pull the M240 and the 10,000rds of 7.62 how much 25mm could you fit with the gun? I do not know, but even say it is only 1000rds 25mm I would find that very useful as it would have your 120mm last longer. Of the 40 main gun rounds that the tank carries only 17 of them are in your ready rack and can be used easily. Yes you can use the other 23rds, but they are much more difficult to use. Normaly they are used to reload the ready rack.

[Draq]

OK, this actually exists, but it an interesting gun. The TP-82 survival rifle for cosmonauts. Two shotgun barrels mounted over a 5.45x39mm rifled barrel, with a detachable stock that doubles as a machete.

[jester]

Hmm, all steel and three barrels, so, weight wasn't a factor. I wonder what its effective range was and accuracy.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Draq

OK, this actually exists, but it an interesting gun. The TP-82 survival rifle for cosmonauts. Two shotgun barrels mounted over a 5.45x39mm rifled barrel, with a detachable stock that doubles as a machete.

I alerted everyone to this one some time ago, though I haven't done anything with it.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I did the AGDS on my Best SPAA that never Were Page.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by CDAT

Now how much ammo is needed to be "Useful"? If you pull the M240 and the 10,000rds of 7.62 how much 25mm could you fit with the gun? I do not know, but even say it is only 1000rds 25mm I would find that very useful as it would have your 120mm last longer. Of the 40 main gun rounds that the tank carries only 17 of them are in your ready rack and can be used easily. Yes you can use the other 23rds, but they are much more difficult to use. Normaly they are used to reload the ready rack.

Real world example>>> AMX-30

[copeab]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Real world example>>> AMX-30

Also, very early Centurions mounted a 20mm coaxisl gun. IIRC, it was capable of elevating higher than the main gun, specifically for AA use.

[Draq]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I alerted everyone to this one some time ago, though I haven't done anything with it.

And that's why you are awesome sir. The amount and quality of work you and several others here do should earn you money, and lots of it. Hats off.

[Brit]

Originally Posted by Draq

In context of the later stages of the war, would it be more complicated to build casemated turrets or traditional ones?

These are all I believe 'what if?' vehicles but the sort of thing that I think could have been produced:

"Hypothetical T-55 based tank destroyer":
http://ambushalleygames.com/forum/vi...hp?f=7&t=12105

"KaJaPa Zehn-Fünf":
"Well, it IS a Jagdpanzer Kanone, with a proposed/theoretical upgrade from 90mm to 105mm".
http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php?topic=21355.0

The Goliath tank "as pictured in Kenneth Macksey's Tank Versus Tank book":
http://www.network54.com/Forum/16923...die....Chimera
http://www.network54.com/Forum/16923.../Goliath+Image

I've also seen a 'what if' casement tank built on I think a M48 chassis. The 'back story' quoted Twilight 2000 and said it was a war damaged tank rebuilt.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Real world example>>> AMX-30

Originally Posted by copeab

Also, very early Centurions mounted a 20mm coaxisl gun. IIRC, it was capable of elevating higher than the main gun, specifically for AA use.

The prototype that I saw at the Patton Museum implied that it had been done before and I had heard that the french did it but did not know for sure who had.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by CDAT

The prototype that I saw at the Patton Museum implied that it had been done before and I had heard that the french did it but did not know for sure who had.

It appears the Mk I and II Centurions mounted the 20mm but the Mk III, which went from a 17-pdr to a 20-pdr, had to drop to a BESA MG.

Worth noting that it was common for most WWII tanks to have the coaxial MG be removable by the crew in the field and a tripod provided so it could be operated from the tank. I think this was most common in American and German tanks.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by copeab

It appears the Mk I and II Centurions mounted the 20mm but the Mk III, which went from a 17-pdr to a 20-pdr, had to drop to a BESA MG.

Worth noting that it was common for most WWII tanks to have the coaxial MG be removable by the crew in the field and a tripod provided so it could be operated from the tank. I think this was most common in American and German tanks.

We had a field kit to add a stock to our, not the best GPMG as no sights. But if the tank was knocked out better than nothing four man crew would have two M240, one M16, and four Pistols.

[Brit]

A "could have been (?)" the 'Jagdchieftain':

http://arcaneafvs.com/chieftain_concept.html

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/foru...peihu69i68hm62

I'm sure I read that it was / maybe still is a runner although it seems that the gun may have been a dummy.

A similar vehicle with two guns was built around the same time on the Leopold 1 chassis.

Second photo down here:
http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index...c=37398&page=3

[Brit]

Most photos here. It seems that the Leopold version was tested / planned in both 105mm and 120mm versions.

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/ind...73281#msg73281

[copeab]

There was the British Tortoise:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torto...y_assault_tank

and American T28:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T28_Super_Heavy_Tank

both designed in WWII.

[unkated]

For ArmySgt, since you asked:

VW Type 2 (T3) of the 1980s - a.k.a. the Microbus

(T2 similar)


"So we took the half-a-ton of garbage, put it in the back of a red VW
Microbus, took shovels and rakes and implements of destruction, and headed
On toward the city dump."
- Alice's Restaurant, A Guthrie

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by unkated

For ArmySgt, since you asked:

VW Type 2 (T3) of the 1980s - a.k.a. the Microbus

(T2 similar)


"So we took the half-a-ton of garbage, put it in the back of a red VW
Microbus, took shovels and rakes and implements of destruction, and headed
On toward the city dump."
- Alice's Restaurant, A Guthrie

Thanks....... If I ever get the time off to go to GhengisCon or TactiCon I will have to spring this on a GM....... I really want to play a NCO that has given up on high moral reasons for war, and just wants to get by on comforts and guile.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Thanks....... If I ever get the time off to go to GhengisCon or TactiCon I will have to spring this on a GM....... I really want to play a NCO that has given up on high moral reasons for war, and just wants to get by on comforts and guile.

Ah. Take a T3 that has been converted to a camper (very popular in Europe), paint it Army Green or camo and list it as non-tactical/Admin borrowed from the Air Force, preferably from a destroyed airbase.



Uncle Ted

[unkated]

Originally Posted by Draq

OK, this actually exists, but it an interesting gun. The TP-82 survival rifle for cosmonauts. Two shotgun barrels mounted over a 5.45x39mm rifled barrel, with a detachable stock that doubles as a machete.

I didn't design this, but I found it on a Dark Conspiracy site:


Uncle Ted

[unkated]

I post these under the best that never was: the initial tanks available (for the original nations) in the on line game World of Tanks. I know there are some players out there.

They fall under this topic because (except for the French FT-17), known of these faced actual combat.

The file includes...

• T7 Combat Car (US)
• T1 Light Tank (US)
• LT-31 (Germany)
• FT-17 (France)
• NC-27 (Japan)
• NC-31 (China)
• MS-1/T-18 (USSR)
• Vickers Medium Mk I (GB)

For each one, there is a T2K style vehicle sheet and a description of the vehicle, its development, and how reality differed from it depiction in WoT.

I did these as an exercise for the fun of it (compare these vs T2K light AFVs). Admittedly, they have little direct use in T2K...

Uncle Ted