Favorite T2K-era SAW/LSW/LMG

[Raellus]

My last poll seems to have been a disappointment to many here so I thought I would try to make ammends with a new one. For classification purposes, I'm differentiating LSW/SAW/LMG from GPMG in that the former is not usually employed in the sustained fire mode or mounted on a tripod whereas with the latter this method of employment is more common.

EDIT: Whoops! I forgot to include the AUG HB. I figure a few of these could be found in the German army c. 2000 after the Austrian army had been absorbed.

[perardua]

I went with the Minimi, on the grounds that, of the two weapons on the poll that I have used (the other being the LSW), it is the only one that is actually a good LMG. <Insert longwinded rant on the LSW and its status as a 'crow cannon' here>

[StainlessSteelCynic]

My last poll seems to have been a disappointment to many here so I thought I would try to make ammends with a new one.

As one of those people causing the dissent on the first poll, I would just like to say that I don't see the poll as a disappointment. I'd get into the reasons but I fear it would just derail this poll and you don't deserve that.
Having used none of the weapons on your list I'm going with what I thought was the best based on nothing more than what I've read and how cool I think it looks - I chose the Ultimax

[Matt Wiser]

HK-21; more stopping power than a M-249 with that big 7.62-mm NATO round, belt or mag fed, and is reliable.

[Targan]

I chose other. Assuming that the G11 was issued to West German forces before the Twilight War, I also assume that they would issue the LSW version of the G11, the LMG11. I have a book which contains a photo of the only prototype they built and internal diagrams. Its magazine held 200 rounds and was contained in a detachable buttstock. I've never tried using the scanner I have at home but if I figure it out I'll try to post a picture here.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I chose other. Assuming that the G11 was issued to West German forces before the Twilight War, I also assume that they would issue the LSW version of the G11, the LMG11. I have a book which contains a photo of the only prototype they built and internal diagrams. Its magazine held 200 rounds and was contained in a detachable buttstock. I've never tried using the scanner I have at home but if I figure it out I'll try to post a picture here.

You may be interested in this page from HKPro
http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=24:the-lmg11-caseless-mg&catid=11:rare-prototypes&Itemid=5

[Targan]

You may be interested in this page from HKPro
http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=24:the-lmg11-caseless-mg&catid=11:rare-prototypes&Itemid=5

Yeah, that's the one. I didn't have the book out when I wrote my post so I had a few things in error. 300 rounds, not 200. And maybe the picture I have is the model shown on the website and not a prototype. Still, no reason it would not have worked had they gone ahead with it.

[pmulcahy11b]

Yeah, that's the one. I didn't have the book out when I wrote my post so I had a few things in error. 300 rounds, not 200. And maybe the picture I have is the model shown on the website and not a prototype. Still, no reason it would not have worked had they gone ahead with it.

Well, got to do some fixes! I've noticed that HKPro.com has re-done their site; it looks better in many places.

[waiting4something]

I have only used the big full size M249 SAW and hated it. I saw the the Ultimax in Singapore and it looked awesome how the guys could move around with it because it was so light weight. I have only read about it's A+ reviews, but never got to shoot or handle it.:( I went with the Stoner 63 LMG/commando. The Stoner just looks sexy and I always have had a hard-on for it ever since I was a kid after reading The Element of Surprise.

[Legbreaker]

To me an LMG is around a 5-6mm weapon which immediately rules out 7.62 types. However, if it's magazine rather than belt fed, 7.62S is acceptable.

Therefore I couldn't go with something as hard hitting as a 7.62mmN or 7.62L, much to my disappointment. Also, as this is a T2K era and not modern, it's eliminated a couple more weapons.

As an ex-machinegunner, I simply can't go past belt fed weapons - they don't require reloading anywhere near as often as magazines (ruling out RPK's, L86, and the superbly accurate Bren just to name a few).

So, to me there's only a handful of weapons which fit and so I've gone with the F89 Minimi (the Australian made ones, not Belgian, US, etc).

[pmulcahy11b]

I have only used the big full size M249 SAW and hated it. I saw the the Ultimax in Singapore and it looked awesome how the guys could move around with it because it was so light weight. I have only read about it's A+ reviews, but never got to shoot or handle it.:( I went with the Stoner 63 LMG/commando. The Stoner just looks sexy and I always have had a hard-on for it ever since I was a kid after reading The Element of Surprise.

I understand they've improved it since I was in, but most troops I knew hated the SAW, and for the same reason as the M16 -- excessive dirt sensitivity.

The Marines are testing a version of the Ultimax -- they don't like the M249 either.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Ah yes the Stoner LMG, I hadn't thought of that one. I do like the look of it very much. Other LMG type weapons that could be found in some areas would be the French MAC 24/29, the Soviet DPM and the Spanish Ameli (okay I cheated, I got interested in the subject and checked some websites).

The LMG designation surely makes for a difficuly decision at times, the Lewis Gun is considered a Light MG but at approximately the same weight as the M60 I wouldn't call it such. The Bren Gun is only about 2kg lighter than an M60 and it's classed as a Light MG but it too is heavier than I'd like to carry.

[pmulcahy11b]

Where's our BRIPAC poster? I've heard that even the Spanish don't like the Ameli, due to a tendency towards fragility. Is that true?

[waiting4something]

I understand they've improved it since I was in, but most troops I knew hated the SAW, and for the same reason as the M16 -- excessive dirt sensitivity.

The Marines are testing a version of the Ultimax -- they don't like the M249 either.

Yeah, they must have improved the M249 when I was in, because when I was a boot we all hated it and where pissed if we got stuck with it. Then when we became the seniors our boots talked about how awesome it was.:confused:
The Marines have been dicking around with a a replacement for awhile, but I wouldn't hold my breath. When I was in one of my sister companies was doing some SAW tests with 3 other type of SAW's. The 3 at the armory were the COLT CAR, Ultimax 100, and HK G36 LMG. That was back in 2001 though and I never heard anything about it since. I was hoping we would have got one of them, since they a real automatic rifles not a LMG like the M249. I want something that is light weight and magazine fed for fast reloading. Nothing worse fumbling around with a belt of ammo on a assualt and having to carry more weight on top of it.

[waiting4something]

Ah yes the Stoner LMG, I hadn't thought of that one. I do like the look of it very much. Other LMG type weapons that could be found in some areas would be the French MAC 24/29, the Soviet DPM and the Spanish Ameli (okay I cheated, I got interested in the subject and checked some websites).

The LMG designation surely makes for a difficuly decision at times, the Lewis Gun is considered a Light MG but at approximately the same weight as the M60 I wouldn't call it such. The Bren Gun is only about 2kg lighter than an M60 and it's classed as a Light MG but it too is heavier than I'd like to carry.

Yes, the Spanish Ameli is bad ass looking. It always reminded me of a minature MG3. I rarely even think about Spanish weapons or their military for that matter. I guess no one else does either, since you never hear about Spain, except maybe the whole running with the bulls thing. It's weird they used to be such a major player in world afairs back in the day too.

[Marc]

Where's our BRIPAC poster? I've heard that even the Spanish don't like the Ameli, due to a tendency towards fragility. Is that true?

Bon dia!

I'm afraid you are true. A very extended opinion about the Ameli is that, although the first prototypes were outstanding, the materials used in their serial production, intended to reduce its production cost, caused them to be too much fragile and unreliable. The preserial models seemed to point the Ameli as a good light machinegun. By the time I was in the BRIPAC, our machinegunners were proudly using the MG3 and I don't remember to have seen any Ameli until I was deployed in the Republika Srpska in 1999. There I was attached to a company of Naval Infantry of the "Tercio Armada" to provide them with radio/phone/satellite link. They were using the Ameli as squad light machinegun. I remember it was the first time I saw a plastic box for the belt.

So, like the CETME L, the Ameli was a good design, but was spoiled by the low quality materials and serial production. With the substitution of the CETME L by the G-36, the Ameli would be substituted by the HK MG43.

[Raellus]

Although I think the M249 (especially the para versions) is better looking, I really like the K&K 21.

Aside from the fact that it's based on the legendary G3 rifle, the H&K 21 has a heavy barrel that can be easily changed. Most SAWs don't. It also accepts standard box mags, 80-round drums, and belted 7.62mm N. When fitted with a telescopic sight, and fired on semi-automatic, it can be used as a designated marksman's rifle. With a new barrel, belt feed, and bolt, it can fire 7.62mm AK ammo. That kind of versatility ranks it above all of the other weapons on the list. In my mind, this is the ideal SAW for SOF.

I so want to play a German PC now so that I can have one of these babies.

[waiting4something]

Although I think the M249 (especially the para versions) is better looking, I really like the K&K 21.

Aside from the fact that it's based on the legendary G3 rifle, the H&K 21 has a heavy barrel that can be easily changed. Most SAWs don't. It also accepts standard box mags, 80-round drums, and belted 7.62mm N. When fitted with a telescopic sight, and fired on semi-automatic, it can be used as a designated marksman's rifle. With a new barrel, belt feed, and bolt, it can fire 7.62mm AK ammo. That kind of versatility ranks it above all of the other weapons on the list. In my mind, this is the ideal SAW for SOF.

I so want to play a German PC now so that I can have one of these babies.

I don't think being a German soldier would matter with the HK-21. I think maybe only the federal police or special operatrions troops would use it with the regular Army having the MG3. This weapon was really made for export if I can recall right. Maybe in a crisis like WWIII they would start giving them to german troops, but otherwise you are more likely to find it operating in African, and South or Central American countries.

[Raellus]

I don't think being a German soldier would matter with the HK-21. I think maybe only the federal police or special operatrions troops would use it with the regular Army having the MG3. This weapon was really made for export if I can recall right. Maybe in a crisis like WWIII they would start giving them to german troops, but otherwise you are more likely to find it operating in African, and South or Central American countries.

For the most part, true. However, the German federal police used them, as did German SOF. Delta and the SEALs acquired a few too.

If, in the Twilight timeline, the German army had to revert to the G3 (once their G11s ran out of caseless ammo), I can see a few HK-21s being issued to some German troops as a SAW/LSW.

Anyway, whatever the case, I really like 'em.

[LAW0306]

RPD

[Raellus]

RPD

I think that might be my 2nd choice.

BTW, Law, your vote isn't showing up on the poll.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

HK-21; more stopping power than a M-249 with that big 7.62-mm NATO round, belt or mag fed, and is reliable.

LOL... my 2 cents on those HK's is that reliability was questionable. Whne the one's I shot ran they ran GREAT but they could be very finnicky. Ive shot 3. An original 21, a 21E, and a 23. The 21E had many rounds thru it and was the more finnicky. The 21 we only put very few rounds because of its value. The ran fine.

I do love them....

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Yes, the Spanish Ameli is bad ass looking. It always reminded me of a minature MG3. I rarely even think about Spanish weapons or their military for that matter. I guess no one else does either, since you never hear about Spain, except maybe the whole running with the bulls thing. It's weird they used to be such a major player in world afairs back in the day too.

Fastest firing SAW Ive ever fired. I htink the ROF is like 1200+ rounds per minute. It IS a mini MG3. Its scaled down.

[HorseSoldier]

For the stuff on the list, the SAW, definitely.

If we're including 7.62 MGs on the list like the HK 21, then I'd have to vote for the PK.

[Raellus]

For classification purposes, I'm differentiating LSW/SAW/LMG from GPMG in that the former is not usually employed in the sustained fire mode or mounted on a tripod whereas with the latter this method of employment is more common.


This is why GPMGs like the PK weren't included in the poll. I think that there's another poll for MGs somewhere around here. Personally, I like the PKM quite a lot. It's lighter than other comparable GPMGs plus it has a reputation for reliability and durability.

[Blink_Dog]

Minimi, used the Canuck equivalent, the C9A1, was my favorite weapon to use and I was issued one for exercises most of the time.

[Apache6]

The M-249 can be employed from a tripod and functions very well in the role of a 'light' general purpose machine gun in that mode. It might be better at that then as a squad automatic weapon, where it can be hard for the gunner to keep up with the manuever of the rest of his fireteam AND apply accurate fire.

[CDAT]

I understand they've improved it since I was in, but most troops I knew hated the SAW, and for the same reason as the M16 -- excessive dirt sensitivity.


I wounder how much of this was hype, and how much was lack of maintenance? I have spent several years in the sand box, and used several different versions of both the M16/M4 and the SAW, never once had any issues with sand. I do not know if I was just "lucky" or if the ones who were unlucky got worn out ones, or did not pull maintenance. I do know for my first deployment we got brand new from the factory M16A4's and some of our guys had issues, but they were the guys who did not clean there rifles ever (and only them), and after more than a year in country they started to have issues "with the piece of junk" rifle we were issued.

[bobcat]

after excluding the GPMG's on the list here i have to go with the HK23. accurate and reliable like its GMPG big brother it is far better than the M249 in terms of mean rounds between failure, more accurate, and i don't have to worry about breaking the weapon if i run out of ammo and have to use it like a baseball bat.

[Rockwolf66]

after excluding the GPMG's on the list here i have to go with the HK23. accurate and reliable like its GMPG big brother it is far better than the M249 in terms of mean rounds between failure, more accurate, and i don't have to worry about breaking the weapon if i run out of ammo and have to use it like a baseball bat.

Well the HK1X/2X system is a modular system. Early in the design there was rumors of a 7.62X39mm conversion kit. I haven't seen any in 39mm but it seems that the 7.62 to 5.56mm conversion is rather easy.


23E with 21E conversion kit. (https://youtu.be/iNh4IzYSfus)

[Sanjuro]

I went for the L4 Bren; first MG I ever fired but in a T2k environment the slow rate of fire is made up for in the ability to use it without a loader, and as an individual weapon, at a pinch. Just remember to only put 28 rounds in the magazine!

[Legbreaker]

...the ability to use it without a loader, and as an individual weapon, at a pinch.

I carried an M60 myself for a number of years and rarely had a No2 to help with reloading, changing barrels, carrying ammo, etc, etc. When I did have one they actually tended to slow me down with most tasks (although it was nice to have an ammo mule).
Another gunner in my platoon occasionally removed the bipod and used it more like a rifle. He tended to attract less attention too as unless you looked closely it didn't actually look like an MG. :rolleyes: Not great for longer range work, but perfect for up to a few hundred metres, especially if he could rest it on a log, window sill, etc.

[Raellus]

If I could re-vote, I'd go with one of the HK 21. I did a lot of research for a PC I run in Fusilier's game and it sounds like a really versatile weapon. With its heavy barrel and biped, when scoped and firing semi-auto from box mags, it can serve as a DMR. With a drum mag, it's a SAW with more range and punch than equivalent 5.56mm weapons. Add in a conversion kit, when your T2K character invariable runs out of 7.62mm NATO, he can switch to 7.62x39mm AK rounds. And, according to Wikepedia, it's got 48% parts commonality with the G3, which, in the v1.0 timeline at least, would still be fairly common in the ETO.

Apparently, German KSK commandos still use a version of the HK12.

:cool:

[swaghauler]

I wounder how much of this was hype, and how much was lack of maintenance? I have spent several years in the sand box, and used several different versions of both the M16/M4 and the SAW, never once had any issues with sand. I do not know if I was just "lucky" or if the ones who were unlucky got worn out ones, or did not pull maintenance. I do know for my first deployment we got brand new from the factory M16A4's and some of our guys had issues, but they were the guys who did not clean there rifles ever (and only them), and after more than a year in country they started to have issues "with the piece of junk" rifle we were issued.

I liked the M249 and have never had any major problem with the five I have fired (three at civilian NFA ranges). The one thing I noticed is that the Rate of Fire of 800 rounds increases to around 1000 when you configure the weapon to shoot from 30 round Stanag magazines. I'm told that this is because the belt feed system is disabled and not needing to pull the belt through the action speeds up the bolt (thus increasing ROF). I noticed that the M249 REALLY chews up the feed lips of the GI mags you put in it. I have to wonder how long it would take for repeated use to render those mags unreliable?

[Raellus]

Based on the new responses on the Favorite APC/IFV thread, I thought a bit of thread necromancy might be in order.

[CDAT]

... I noticed that the M249 REALLY chews up the feed lips of the GI mags you put in it. I have to wonder how long it would take for repeated use to render those mags unreliable?

This is something that I am guessing is a non issue to the services as the GI mags are a disposable line item, but post your on your own would be a major issue. How valuable would the links become? As much as brass?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think for anyone wanting to keep any belt-fed MG in action the links/belts* would be just as valuable as brass. Without the link, the MG is at best, just a heavy single-shot rifle with average accuracy (compared to most combat rifles). At worst it's just extra weight with little purpose (except maybe, for psychological purposes, i.e. making it look like you have more firepower than you really do).

* e.g. German DM-1 non-disintegrating belt.

[pmulcahy11b]

I've only fired a SAW, and not in real-life. But based on my experiences with the M16 and AK-47, I'll take an RPK-47.

[Legbreaker]

I've only fired a SAW, and not in real-life. But based on my experiences with the M16 and AK-47, I'll take an RPK-47.

I thought you might have been more of a Bren guy? :p

[Raellus]

I created a Danish Jaegerkorpset PC for a v1 timeline, v2.2 rules PbP and equipped him with a scoped, suppressed HK21E. It's awesome. It works equally well as a DMR and a LSW/LAW/LMG. Golden- possibly the ultimate T2k small arm.

That said, I really do like the RPD. If I ever have to gen up a new PC, I think I'll give him an RPD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbDHeNrhPfA

In John Plaster's SOG: A Photo History of the Secret Wars, he describes how SOG recon teams mod'ed the RPD for LRRP use. They removed the bipod and cut down the barrel to just in front of the gas tube, shortening it to 31" and lightening it to 12lb, just a bit heavier than a Tommy Gun. They jury-rigged an additional 25-round segment to the standard 100-round ammo belt, and put a slice of linoleum in the drum mag to eliminate rattle. He calls it the "most fearsome short-range weapon in the SOG arsenal".

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