Favorite T2K-era SAW/LSW/LMG

[Raellus]

My last poll seems to have been a disappointment to many here so I thought I would try to make ammends with a new one. For classification purposes, I'm differentiating LSW/SAW/LMG from GPMG in that the former is not usually employed in the sustained fire mode or mounted on a tripod whereas with the latter this method of employment is more common.

EDIT: Whoops! I forgot to include the AUG HB. I figure a few of these could be found in the German army c. 2000 after the Austrian army had been absorbed.

[perardua]

I went with the Minimi, on the grounds that, of the two weapons on the poll that I have used (the other being the LSW), it is the only one that is actually a good LMG. <Insert longwinded rant on the LSW and its status as a 'crow cannon' here>

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Raellus

My last poll seems to have been a disappointment to many here so I thought I would try to make ammends with a new one.

As one of those people causing the dissent on the first poll, I would just like to say that I don't see the poll as a disappointment. I'd get into the reasons but I fear it would just derail this poll and you don't deserve that.
Having used none of the weapons on your list I'm going with what I thought was the best based on nothing more than what I've read and how cool I think it looks - I chose the Ultimax

[Matt Wiser]

HK-21; more stopping power than a M-249 with that big 7.62-mm NATO round, belt or mag fed, and is reliable.

[Targan]

I chose other. Assuming that the G11 was issued to West German forces before the Twilight War, I also assume that they would issue the LSW version of the G11, the LMG11. I have a book which contains a photo of the only prototype they built and internal diagrams. Its magazine held 200 rounds and was contained in a detachable buttstock. I've never tried using the scanner I have at home but if I figure it out I'll try to post a picture here.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Targan

I chose other. Assuming that the G11 was issued to West German forces before the Twilight War, I also assume that they would issue the LSW version of the G11, the LMG11. I have a book which contains a photo of the only prototype they built and internal diagrams. Its magazine held 200 rounds and was contained in a detachable buttstock. I've never tried using the scanner I have at home but if I figure it out I'll try to post a picture here.

You may be interested in this page from HKPro
http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?optio...types&Itemid=5

[Targan]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

You may be interested in this page from HKPro
http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?optio...types&Itemid=5

Yeah, that's the one. I didn't have the book out when I wrote my post so I had a few things in error. 300 rounds, not 200. And maybe the picture I have is the model shown on the website and not a prototype. Still, no reason it would not have worked had they gone ahead with it.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

Yeah, that's the one. I didn't have the book out when I wrote my post so I had a few things in error. 300 rounds, not 200. And maybe the picture I have is the model shown on the website and not a prototype. Still, no reason it would not have worked had they gone ahead with it.

Well, got to do some fixes! I've noticed that HKPro.com has re-done their site; it looks better in many places.

[waiting4something]

I have only used the big full size M249 SAW and hated it. I saw the the Ultimax in Singapore and it looked awesome how the guys could move around with it because it was so light weight. I have only read about it's A+ reviews, but never got to shoot or handle it. I went with the Stoner 63 LMG/commando. The Stoner just looks sexy and I always have had a hard-on for it ever since I was a kid after reading The Element of Surprise.

[Legbreaker]

To me an LMG is around a 5-6mm weapon which immediately rules out 7.62 types. However, if it's magazine rather than belt fed, 7.62S is acceptable.

Therefore I couldn't go with something as hard hitting as a 7.62mmN or 7.62L, much to my disappointment. Also, as this is a T2K era and not modern, it's eliminated a couple more weapons.

As an ex-machinegunner, I simply can't go past belt fed weapons - they don't require reloading anywhere near as often as magazines (ruling out RPK's, L86, and the superbly accurate Bren just to name a few).

So, to me there's only a handful of weapons which fit and so I've gone with the F89 Minimi (the Australian made ones, not Belgian, US, etc).

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I have only used the big full size M249 SAW and hated it. I saw the the Ultimax in Singapore and it looked awesome how the guys could move around with it because it was so light weight. I have only read about it's A+ reviews, but never got to shoot or handle it. I went with the Stoner 63 LMG/commando. The Stoner just looks sexy and I always have had a hard-on for it ever since I was a kid after reading The Element of Surprise.

I understand they've improved it since I was in, but most troops I knew hated the SAW, and for the same reason as the M16 -- excessive dirt sensitivity.

The Marines are testing a version of the Ultimax -- they don't like the M249 either.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Ah yes the Stoner LMG, I hadn't thought of that one. I do like the look of it very much. Other LMG type weapons that could be found in some areas would be the French MAC 24/29, the Soviet DPM and the Spanish Ameli (okay I cheated, I got interested in the subject and checked some websites).

The LMG designation surely makes for a difficuly decision at times, the Lewis Gun is considered a Light MG but at approximately the same weight as the M60 I wouldn't call it such. The Bren Gun is only about 2kg lighter than an M60 and it's classed as a Light MG but it too is heavier than I'd like to carry.

[pmulcahy11b]

Where's our BRIPAC poster? I've heard that even the Spanish don't like the Ameli, due to a tendency towards fragility. Is that true?

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I understand they've improved it since I was in, but most troops I knew hated the SAW, and for the same reason as the M16 -- excessive dirt sensitivity.

The Marines are testing a version of the Ultimax -- they don't like the M249 either.

Yeah, they must have improved the M249 when I was in, because when I was a boot we all hated it and where pissed if we got stuck with it. Then when we became the seniors our boots talked about how awesome it was.
The Marines have been dicking around with a a replacement for awhile, but I wouldn't hold my breath. When I was in one of my sister companies was doing some SAW tests with 3 other type of SAW's. The 3 at the armory were the COLT CAR, Ultimax 100, and HK G36 LMG. That was back in 2001 though and I never heard anything about it since. I was hoping we would have got one of them, since they a real automatic rifles not a LMG like the M249. I want something that is light weight and magazine fed for fast reloading. Nothing worse fumbling around with a belt of ammo on a assualt and having to carry more weight on top of it.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Ah yes the Stoner LMG, I hadn't thought of that one. I do like the look of it very much. Other LMG type weapons that could be found in some areas would be the French MAC 24/29, the Soviet DPM and the Spanish Ameli (okay I cheated, I got interested in the subject and checked some websites).

The LMG designation surely makes for a difficuly decision at times, the Lewis Gun is considered a Light MG but at approximately the same weight as the M60 I wouldn't call it such. The Bren Gun is only about 2kg lighter than an M60 and it's classed as a Light MG but it too is heavier than I'd like to carry.

Yes, the Spanish Ameli is bad ass looking. It always reminded me of a minature MG3. I rarely even think about Spanish weapons or their military for that matter. I guess no one else does either, since you never hear about Spain, except maybe the whole running with the bulls thing. It's weird they used to be such a major player in world afairs back in the day too.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Where's our BRIPAC poster? I've heard that even the Spanish don't like the Ameli, due to a tendency towards fragility. Is that true?

Bon dia!

I'm afraid you are true. A very extended opinion about the Ameli is that, although the first prototypes were outstanding, the materials used in their serial production, intended to reduce its production cost, caused them to be too much fragile and unreliable. The preserial models seemed to point the Ameli as a good light machinegun. By the time I was in the BRIPAC, our machinegunners were proudly using the MG3 and I don't remember to have seen any Ameli until I was deployed in the Republika Srpska in 1999. There I was attached to a company of Naval Infantry of the "Tercio Armada" to provide them with radio/phone/satellite link. They were using the Ameli as squad light machinegun. I remember it was the first time I saw a plastic box for the belt.

So, like the CETME L, the Ameli was a good design, but was spoiled by the low quality materials and serial production. With the substitution of the CETME L by the G-36, the Ameli would be substituted by the HK MG43.

[Raellus]

Although I think the M249 (especially the para versions) is better looking, I really like the K&K 21.

Aside from the fact that it's based on the legendary G3 rifle, the H&K 21 has a heavy barrel that can be easily changed. Most SAWs don't. It also accepts standard box mags, 80-round drums, and belted 7.62mm N. When fitted with a telescopic sight, and fired on semi-automatic, it can be used as a designated marksman's rifle. With a new barrel, belt feed, and bolt, it can fire 7.62mm AK ammo. That kind of versatility ranks it above all of the other weapons on the list. In my mind, this is the ideal SAW for SOF.

I so want to play a German PC now so that I can have one of these babies.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Although I think the M249 (especially the para versions) is better looking, I really like the K&K 21.

Aside from the fact that it's based on the legendary G3 rifle, the H&K 21 has a heavy barrel that can be easily changed. Most SAWs don't. It also accepts standard box mags, 80-round drums, and belted 7.62mm N. When fitted with a telescopic sight, and fired on semi-automatic, it can be used as a designated marksman's rifle. With a new barrel, belt feed, and bolt, it can fire 7.62mm AK ammo. That kind of versatility ranks it above all of the other weapons on the list. In my mind, this is the ideal SAW for SOF.

I so want to play a German PC now so that I can have one of these babies.

I don't think being a German soldier would matter with the HK-21. I think maybe only the federal police or special operatrions troops would use it with the regular Army having the MG3. This weapon was really made for export if I can recall right. Maybe in a crisis like WWIII they would start giving them to german troops, but otherwise you are more likely to find it operating in African, and South or Central American countries.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I don't think being a German soldier would matter with the HK-21. I think maybe only the federal police or special operatrions troops would use it with the regular Army having the MG3. This weapon was really made for export if I can recall right. Maybe in a crisis like WWIII they would start giving them to german troops, but otherwise you are more likely to find it operating in African, and South or Central American countries.

For the most part, true. However, the German federal police used them, as did German SOF. Delta and the SEALs acquired a few too.

If, in the Twilight timeline, the German army had to revert to the G3 (once their G11s ran out of caseless ammo), I can see a few HK-21s being issued to some German troops as a SAW/LSW.

Anyway, whatever the case, I really like 'em.

[LAW0306]

RPD

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by LAW0306

RPD

I think that might be my 2nd choice.

BTW, Law, your vote isn't showing up on the poll.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

HK-21; more stopping power than a M-249 with that big 7.62-mm NATO round, belt or mag fed, and is reliable.

LOL... my 2 cents on those HK's is that reliability was questionable. Whne the one's I shot ran they ran GREAT but they could be very finnicky. Ive shot 3. An original 21, a 21E, and a 23. The 21E had many rounds thru it and was the more finnicky. The 21 we only put very few rounds because of its value. The ran fine.

I do love them....

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Yes, the Spanish Ameli is bad ass looking. It always reminded me of a minature MG3. I rarely even think about Spanish weapons or their military for that matter. I guess no one else does either, since you never hear about Spain, except maybe the whole running with the bulls thing. It's weird they used to be such a major player in world afairs back in the day too.

Fastest firing SAW Ive ever fired. I htink the ROF is like 1200+ rounds per minute. It IS a mini MG3. Its scaled down.

[HorseSoldier]

For the stuff on the list, the SAW, definitely.

If we're including 7.62 MGs on the list like the HK 21, then I'd have to vote for the PK.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Raellus

For classification purposes, I'm differentiating LSW/SAW/LMG from GPMG in that the former is not usually employed in the sustained fire mode or mounted on a tripod whereas with the latter this method of employment is more common.

This is why GPMGs like the PK weren't included in the poll. I think that there's another poll for MGs somewhere around here. Personally, I like the PKM quite a lot. It's lighter than other comparable GPMGs plus it has a reputation for reliability and durability.

[Blink_Dog]

Minimi, used the Canuck equivalent, the C9A1, was my favorite weapon to use and I was issued one for exercises most of the time.

[Apache6]

The M-249 can be employed from a tripod and functions very well in the role of a 'light' general purpose machine gun in that mode. It might be better at that then as a squad automatic weapon, where it can be hard for the gunner to keep up with the manuever of the rest of his fireteam AND apply accurate fire.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I understand they've improved it since I was in, but most troops I knew hated the SAW, and for the same reason as the M16 -- excessive dirt sensitivity.

I wounder how much of this was hype, and how much was lack of maintenance? I have spent several years in the sand box, and used several different versions of both the M16/M4 and the SAW, never once had any issues with sand. I do not know if I was just "lucky" or if the ones who were unlucky got worn out ones, or did not pull maintenance. I do know for my first deployment we got brand new from the factory M16A4's and some of our guys had issues, but they were the guys who did not clean there rifles ever (and only them), and after more than a year in country they started to have issues "with the piece of junk" rifle we were issued.

[bobcat]

after excluding the GPMG's on the list here i have to go with the HK23. accurate and reliable like its GMPG big brother it is far better than the M249 in terms of mean rounds between failure, more accurate, and i don't have to worry about breaking the weapon if i run out of ammo and have to use it like a baseball bat.

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by bobcat

after excluding the GPMG's on the list here i have to go with the HK23. accurate and reliable like its GMPG big brother it is far better than the M249 in terms of mean rounds between failure, more accurate, and i don't have to worry about breaking the weapon if i run out of ammo and have to use it like a baseball bat.

Well the HK1X/2X system is a modular system. Early in the design there was rumors of a 7.62X39mm conversion kit. I haven't seen any in 39mm but it seems that the 7.62 to 5.56mm conversion is rather easy.


23E with 21E conversion kit.