Surplus armor in T2K

[schnickelfritz]

To all-
I'm sorry if this has been discussed here previously, as I am new to the forum.

I reenact WW2 and have had the luck of coming into contact with WW2 and postwar armor from a variety of nations. In the Midwest US we have M-5 tanks, your odd M4A3 Sherman, M-36's, a pair of Hetzer/G-13 tank destroyers, and a gaggle of US M-2 & M-3 series half tracks. There are even several (four that I've seen and/or touched personally) Czech OT-810 halftracks running within a hundred mile radius of Chicago.

Has the use of older armor (including obsolete cold war stuff) been ever discussed for a CONUS campaign? The half tracks and scout cars are fairly common for what they are, but I see some real wierd stuff from time to time pop up that had been practically hidden in garages over the years.

Just don't ask me why someone would go through all that trouble to never run it or show it...I can't get my head around that one.

It would seem to me that having a half track and/or M-20 available to a local militia would be really valuable, even if only armed with 30 or 50-cal MG's. With the exception of the German WW2 stuff, most of if cannot be easier to work on. Occaisionally I see something like a M5 Stuart pop up in a town square from time to time. There is even a M60A3 in very good shape about 20 miles from here that was donated 5-10 years ago. It appears to be a M60A3 TTS.

About 2 miles from here a guy built a M35 2.5ton gun truck ala Vietnam...no, it is not named "Eve of Destruction." it still looks sharp in black with red lettering, though.

-Thoughts?

Thanks!
Dave

[raketenjagdpanzer]

There is a guy in California - you can see his collection on Tank Fixers - who has no fewer than 20 operational or at the worst semi-operational MBTs spanning all eras including the 1970's/80's with a handful of T62s and '72s.

Additionally, he has a machine shop capable of completely rebuilding tanks if need be.

I think the guy is far enough away from any metropolitan areas that in the event he'd be safe...and he'd become a huge asset for whomever could convince him (in whatever manner) to work for them - CivGov, MilGov, marauders, what have you.

Shit I could see in terms of sheer desperation stuff being pulled out of armor and military museums; a working Sherman is still a tank, and when your opponent is a bunch of guys with hunting rifles crouched behind a log and dirt berm...well...advantage: tank owner. :)

[Legbreaker]

Even without working weaponry/ammo an armoured vehicle is still very valuable. Firstly there's the intimidation factor, and secondly, they literally weigh tonnes! They can roll over and crush infantry, light vehicles and emplacements.
Naturally equipping said older AFVs with working weaponry only enhances their value.

Almost anywhere you look in the world you will find collectors or museums which will either be raided or form the core of an armoured force of some type. As a GM, almost anything can be justified, provided of course it's not the local US police force armed with a brand new T-80 (A T-55 is possible though).

[helbent4]

It would seem to me that having a half track and/or M-20 available to a local militia would be really valuable, even if only armed with 30 or 50-cal MG's. With the exception of the German WW2 stuff, most of if cannot be easier to work on. Occaisionally I see something like a M5 Stuart pop up in a town square from time to time. There is even a M60A3 in very good shape about 20 miles from here that was donated 5-10 years ago. It appears to be a M60A3 TTS.

About 2 miles from here a guy built a M35 2.5ton gun truck ala Vietnam...no, it is not named "Eve of Destruction." it still looks sharp in black with red lettering, though.



Dave,

Welcome to the list (or at least with regards to posting actively).

I don't think this has been specifically discussed but it's very germane. During the Yugoslav civil war, T-34/85s were pulled out of museums and other places (the back of the motor pool in some cases) and thrown into battle. The following is a knocked-out T-34/85. The middle road wheels are from a T-55:

http://img222.exs.cx/img222/1945/srpskit34unistenubosniokolinad.jpg

At any rate, it makes sense that anything would be pressed into service. In the Aftermath adventure "Empire of Karo" the city-state has put some M4 Shermans into service by installing diesel bus engines.

What would the stats be for an older tank like an M4, powered by a bus engine? Just curious.

Tony

[irishboy]

I've got a tangent to go off on here.

I read a newspaper article about this company a year or two ago, and comments of the OP made me think of it right away.

http://www.driveatank.com/

This is a business run by a collector. There were postings for 'tanks for sale' even!

This all happens about 90 minutes south of Minneapolis, MN.

Back to the topic though, it's a great point. There's quite a few armored vehicles out there if you know where to look.

[Canadian Army]

There would also would be fare number of M113s around; as a number of police departments used it for SWAT operations; and fair bit in private hands (museums and private collections). On a side note NASA has three used for for emergency evacuation/firefighting.

[dragoon500ly]

There are a suprisingly large number of M-114s running around with the police, as well as V-100 and V-150 armored cars.

[HorseSoldier]

Additionally, he has a machine shop capable of completely rebuilding tanks if need be.

That would be part of the trick. The bottlenecks I see for vintage or unusual AFVs would include:

1) Mechanical know how -- You've got to have someone who can keep the thing(s) running. In some cases this wouldn't be too tough, in some cases it would be a huge trick (i.e. the Patton Museum has all kinds of trouble in real life just getting their Panther to crank and drive around a bit; post-apocalypse it's not going to be spearheading MilGov's drive to recapture Memphis).

2) Automotive logistics -- Either a big stack of spare or #1 plus something like the machine shop mentioned in the quote above or else you're either going to have static pill boxes or be leaving a trail of broken down antiques in your wake behind you during movements.

3) Ammunition and associated logistics -- Again, this one can be an easy one or a hard one depending on the specific weapons and such. I could be completely wrong, but I don't think the US government has any stocks anywhere of 76mm ammo to support an operational M4A3E8 Sherman, for instance. Short of a group coming into possession of a forgotten 50s era emergency stockpile, main guns wouldn't be supportable for most of the vintage US stuff. (Such a stockpile could explain sustainable supplies of spare parts and maybe even the vehicles themselves, too . . .)

4) Local stability -- If marauders are killing off your mechanical know how and burning the barns containing your antique armor to the ground before you can get the stuff combat ready, it's a show stopper. Likewise if things are so desperate that your mechanics have to spend all their time trying to hunt rats for the collective stew pot just to survive, it's a show stopper as well.

For CONUS operations post-TDM, I think the vintage armor I'd really want to lay hands on would be some M42 Dusters -- 40mm ammo would still have been available (even without alternate historying it to have the Sgt York program successful and in service) and enough vehicles and parts would have been around to keep them running if you had access to them (I always wonder about wikipedia, but it says the last NG unit equipped with them didn't retire them until 1988.) And from accounts from Korea and Vietnam, those things were absolute murdering pieces against troops in the open.

[Adm.Lee]

I think a GM running anywhere in the States could get away with a town or city militia having at least one static ex-tank. The number of American Legion or VFW posts with Shermans out front on display makes that possible.

Surely they could turn up the horsepower to drag such a hulk somewhere useful (like overlooking a bridge?) and re-install a machine gun and a phone.

[Legbreaker]

http://www.driveatank.com/

This is a business run by a collector. There were postings for 'tanks for sale' even!

This all happens about 90 minutes south of Minneapolis, MN.

Theres a few collectors here in Australia too that keep working AFVs for joyrides and sales. I've even heard of a couple of old Centurions being used as farm tractors.

[Raellus]

For CONUS operations post-TDM, I think the vintage armor I'd really want to lay hands on would be some M42 Dusters -- 40mm ammo would still have been available (even without alternate historying it to have the Sgt York program successful and in service) and enough vehicles and parts would have been around to keep them running if you had access to them (I always wonder about wikipedia, but it says the last NG unit equipped with them didn't retire them until 1988.) And from accounts from Korea and Vietnam, those things were absolute murdering pieces against troops in the open.

...or buildings. I'm reading a book about the battle of Hue and there are descriptions of Dusters collapsing entire masonry buildings with 40mm fire. For similar reasons, the Russians found their ZU-23-4 Shilka's to be their deadliest urban warfare weapon in Grozny.

[pmulcahy11b]

Theres a few collectors here in Australia too that keep working AFVs for joyrides and sales. I've even heard of a couple of old Centurions being used as farm tractors.

That happens in a lot of former Eastern Bloc countries and Russia -- vehicles are demilled and used by logging companies, as vehicles to transport scientific teams across rough terrain, as rescue vehicles in firefighting, and other stuff. There's even a version of the BMP-1 called the Ladoga which is a luxury vehicle inside, and transport for VIPs in hazardous areas on the outside.

[Legbreaker]

I believe somewhere in north America (could be US, could be Canada) there's an M60 tank which is used for triggering avalanches (saw it on a doco a few years back).

[Raellus]

"Surplus armor" owned by civilian citizens would probably be overlooked by the military until things started to get really bad (post-TDM). At that point, private collections near military installations would probably be commandeered, restored, and used in some capacity. Collections in out-of-the-way places might be commandeered by civilian defense forces or aspiring warlords. Whether such groups could actually operate said vehicles is an open question.

As several folks have already pointed out, keeping such vehicles up and running is going to be rather difficult and it's likely that many of them are going to end up as static pillboxes or showpieces sooner or later.

I figure most such private collections are very small (one or two vehicles at most) but there are a couple of very large collections here in the U.S. There's at least one such mega-collection in Nevada, I believe. There was an AFV restoration show on Military Channel or Discovery a couple of years back that featured several vehicles acquired and restored by a wealthy patron's hand-picked crew. They had all kinds of WWII and Cold-War era AFVs- everything from a Hellcat TD to a fomer target-range Sherman to a Centurion MBT to a German Panther recovered from a Polish river. All were restored to operational condition.

[Matt W]

The US Forest Service has a number of artillery pieces (and tanks) for avalanche control.

This might inspire some ideas

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=29295&st=20

[schnickelfritz]

The gentleman on the US West Coast with the huge MV collection is(was) the late Jaques Littlefield. He was out of the San francisco area and his estate is still functional (he passed in 2009) as the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Vehicle_Technology_Foundation

http://www.mvtf.org/index.html

A German Pzkpfw IV Panther of any version was a nightmare to keep running, even under the best of circumstances. A recently retired M60A3 with a complete interior/driveline that could be crewed/maintained by veterans at the local VFW's would be a lot easier by comparison.

I wouldn't try to do that either, probably more so because it would totally imbalance the scenario/game.

What I had in mind were some of the easier to maintain MV's, especially those that have a lagely truck based driveline. As far as tanks go, the M3/M5 Stuart and M24 Chaffee (and derivatives) are powered with older GM V-8's ( flathead Cadillacs). I've seen an M5 repowered with a single basic 350 Chevy because the owner got a largely stripped hulk. Any place you can put a GM V-8, you can put the 6.2L/6.5L diesel from a HMMWV.

The White M3 Scout Car and M-2/3 series half tracks are ideal here; they won't totally imbalance a scenario, they are just as simple as it gets, and just about any truck mechanic can keep it running. You don't have to keep it running exactly the way it was built; you can always swap in the engine/trans and/or driveline of a HMMWV or M35.

The US half tracks really are trucks with the rear axles replaced with a rubber band track. Given some enginuity and the metalworking tools found on most farms, machine shops, and tool rooms, repairs and ressurection can be performed on an old MV within reason, especially if you have a covered workplace and all winter to work on it.

I've seen ground up restorations and band-aid grade restorations done by hobbyists with some aptitude and a decent trck based welder. Look around; there are heavy equipment repair trucks wherever you have excavating companies. If they don't have one on site, they have one on call. Most have a welder, air compressor, tools, and a crane in the 1-5 ton range, depending on the size of the repair truck.

It all depends on what you want to use it for. Do you want to do regular patrols with it? Perhaps then a surplus Ferret, M-3 scout car, or M-8/M-20 is better. They are easier on fuel and easier to keep running. For use as a response force, a couple of M-3 half tracks and/or gun trucks would work nicely. There was also a M-3 half track with a 81mm mortar in it called the M-4.

I'd really recommend anyone with an interest in this look around and find a reenactment local to them. There are several in Chicago throughout the warmer months and you can get up close to some of these vehicles and see just how easy they are to work on.

I just want to say that the intent was not to suggest trying to take a M-46/M-47/M-48 Patton off a concrete pad and attempt to use it. Most have been sitting far too long and have been stripped of most of the interior and driveline anyway. Most that I see probably aren't worth the fuel to drag them with bulldozers and the expertise you'd need to get it running probably isn't there anyway.

However, what's to say you couldn't get a M-5 Stuart running? The cannon barrel would have been plugged and the breech ring removed (the breech unscrews on the US 37mm), so I'd toss it and slide in a 50-cal MG. Pair that with a pair of 30-cal MG's in the hull/coax spots and you're in business.

Were some of the steering brakes unusable, you could probably cobble something together from a medium size bulldozer.

The Stuart also has the appeal of having dual driver controls; you can teach someone to drive while you ride in the bow gunner spot.

I wouldn't even bother trying to find, much less use ancient cannon/howitzer ammo. Even if you could find it, the main guns on almost all retired AFV's have been demilled by plugging the barrel and torch cutting the breach. Putting a live round in even a repaired weapon is asking for a fatal accident.

Were I to have time, I might even try to kitbash a model of a M5 Stuart hull with a Bradley turret on it!

Here are some of the vehicles I had in mind:
M-3 Scout Car
M-8 Armored Car
M-20 Armored Utility Car
Ferret Armored Car (UK)
Saracen 6x6 APC (UK)
Humber Pig (UK)
M-2 Half track
M-3 Half Track
M-3/M-5 Stuart Light Tank
M-24 Chaffee Light Tank
Universal (Bren) Carrier APC (UK/Canada)

I've tried to keep this at least semi-plausable, i.e. keeping it to those vehicles I've seen for sale in the US and those I've seen in the flesh wihin a couple hour drive of Chicago.

Like I said, I encourage anyone to get out there and take a look at the real thing if you can!

Thanks,
Dave

[boogiedowndonovan]

The Military Vehicle Technology Foundation collection is on the outskirts of Silicon Valley, about 40 minutes south of San Francisco and about 20 minutes from Stanford University. Any northern california T2kers up for a tour?

The more modern US military vehicles would likely be requistioned by the reforming 40th Mechanized Division or other elements of 6th Army. Maybe the Stanford and Silicon Valley geeks are able to keep some of the older vehicles running, fabricate parts, or otherwise modified etc.

It would be interesting to see what vehicles the foundation obtained before and after the real world Cold War draw down.

What about vehicles used as "gate guards"? How much work would need to be done to get them into working condition. I assume that the hull is still relatively intact, but the weapons have been removed or otherwise disabled and the engine removed.

[Legbreaker]

You'd have to assume that in most cases the suspension is still in a reasonably working order - the vehicles may have to be moved around the museum from time to time and it's far easier to tow than lift with a crane.

[waiting4something]

I wonder how many military vehicles have been stolen that are in private civilian hands. I could see like a M48 sitting in someones storage shed. There was a case awhile back where some guys stole over a hundred military vehicles from Fort McCoy. It seems likely to me this could happen easily when you have stuff that is no longer being used. The guy at the gate most likely wouldn't think much of it.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/1996/oct/03/combat-equipment-theft-ring-broken/

[boogiedowndonovan]

I wonder how many military vehicles have been stolen that are in private civilian hands. I could see like a M48 sitting in someones storage shed. There was a case awhile back where some guys stole over a hundred military vehicles from Fort McCoy. It seems likely to me this could happen easily when you have stuff that is no longer being used. The guy at the gate most likely wouldn't think much of it.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/1996/oct/03/combat-equipment-theft-ring-broken/


speaking of which, anyone remember when a mentally disturbed person broke into a National Guard armory and stole an M-60?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zINN5EUMwwc

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Dave,

Welcome to the list (or at least with regards to posting actively).

I don't think this has been specifically discussed but it's very germane. During the Yugoslav civil war, T-34/85s were pulled out of museums and other places (the back of the motor pool in some cases) and thrown into battle...

Tony

I knew a guy many years back who toured Yugoslavia before the civil war and the two of us being interested in things military, he endeavoured to take photos of the various military things he saw (sometimes he was lucky, other times he wasn't).
One thing he wanted to take a pic of, that he couldn't because he was on holidays with his family (and they didn't want to stop the car so he could indulge his desires) was a group of tanks.

He was on a motorway when he spotted some army base or another and the vehicle park was filled with softskins and some APCs but what he wanted to photograph was the lines of T-34s parked up at the back of the motor pool. He estimated the number of T-34s at around the 80-100 mark.
This was a few years before the Yugoslav civil war and if I remember rightly, it was in the region of the Croatian/Serbian border (I think he and his family were heading for Belgrade).

[dragoon500ly]

speaking of which, anyone remember when a mentally disturbed person broke into a National Guard armory and stole an M-60?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zINN5EUMwwc

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.

Instead, two cops pop the loaders hatch and blast the guy with a dozen 9mm...

[waiting4something]

speaking of which, anyone remember when a mentally disturbed person broke into a National Guard armory and stole an M-60?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zINN5EUMwwc

I thought this was one of the coolest things ever captured on film.:cool: It was way better then that Tiananmen Square tank bullshit.:tank::rolleyes:

[copeab]

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.


I can't blame the cops for this one. It's not like part of their training should have been on how to disable a tank.

Now, I'm sure men from the National Guard could have known how to do this, but there are legal issues in using them.

[waiting4something]

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.

Instead, two cops pop the loaders hatch and blast the guy with a dozen 9mm...

I agree with you once he was hung up and wasn't posing a threat they could have done something non-lethal like throw some CS gas in the tank. I mean it didn't look like he was going anywhere. Of course, this is if they had time to get some CS grenades from the armory. If he did break free again I could see shooting him though. A lot of what you discribed on how to stop it only someone with knowledge in armor would know. Your average joe would be thinking how the hell do I stop this thing.

[Fusilier]

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.

You can't be serious. Think about it.

[Abbott Shaull]

I can't blame the cops for this one. It's not like part of their training should have been on how to disable a tank.

Now, I'm sure men from the National Guard could have known how to do this, but there are legal issues in using them.

Well as for the legal issues, it does take awhile for the paper trail chain to catch up with events.

[Abbott Shaull]

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.

Instead, two cops pop the loaders hatch and blast the guy with a dozen 9mm...

Uhm... I would have to agree with others. Lot of the things you mention to stop the tank, wouldn't of been known to many people outside of people who had served in the military.

As for opening the loaders hatch and blasting the guy with 9mm, yeah that was overkill.

I totally agree once he got hung up, they could simply wait him out.

[Abbott Shaull]

The thing is not only surplus Armor. At the Lake Superior State University campus there is not only old M60 tank, but also what looks to be 105mm How., maybe it 75mm one. The point is I have seen lot of the old artillery pieces spread out in front of this Armory or out on display here.

Not claiming that it would be easy to get any of these surplus piece in proper working order. Yet one paragraph in the game where it explain even if the unit wasn't entirely operational, have a few AFVs or IFVs or Armor Cars were more than enough to swing a battle into their owner favor. Especially if you were up against forces not equipped to take on such vehicles it was easier to run than stand and fight.

In many cases where a particular faction had Vehicle or artillery pieces they went to great details to explain what was malfunction if anything and what type of ammo reserve they had. T-72 with only Commander MG working, would still cause troops to run, a unit taking to the field with even a towed how. would cause the opposing force to be nervous. By 2000 it was the unknown on if they were operational or not. I can imagine seeing even Company or Battalion size force show up and setting up mortars would be bit unnerving to an militia unit that short on ammo, even though the other force may have two to four round per mortar tub. The average militia person wouldn't know that after they fired their first rounds...

Just some thoughts.

[dragoon500ly]

I can't blame the cops for this one. It's not like part of their training should have been on how to disable a tank.

Now, I'm sure men from the National Guard could have known how to do this, but there are legal issues in using them.

There are a lot of stories floating around the NG about various NG officers/NCOs calling the CHiPs and telling them how to disable the tank by doing just that. Wouldn't have required the NG to physically do it, just tell a cop what to do...and don't forget the cops knew enough to use a hammer to pop the loader's vison block hatch and reach in to open the hatch...they listened to at least some of what they were told...

Don't get me wrong, IF the police were convinced that he posed harm, then they had every right to do so....but this was a NG tank that means no ammunition, no crew-served weapons, no firing pin for the main gun, it was also straddling a highway barricade...the tank wasn't going anywhere else that day. IIRC they had to use two cranes to get the tank off of the barriers, it wasn't going to do it on its own.

As for the cops not having tear gas available....look at the news footage, there were at least three officers running around with tear gas launchers.

And there is this to consider as well, the tank driver has been accused of being mentally incomptent...my own opinion is that if he was not responsible for his own actions, then empting a 9mm into him was excessive.

[dragoon500ly]

The thing is not only surplus Armor. At the Lake Superior State University campus there is not only old M60 tank, but also what looks to be 105mm How., maybe it 75mm one. The point is I have seen lot of the old artillery pieces spread out in front of this Armory or out on display here.

Not claiming that it would be easy to get any of these surplus piece in proper working order. Yet one paragraph in the game where it explain even if the unit wasn't entirely operational, have a few AFVs or IFVs or Armor Cars were more than enough to swing a battle into their owner favor. Especially if you were up against forces not equipped to take on such vehicles it was easier to run than stand and fight.

In many cases where a particular faction had Vehicle or artillery pieces they went to great details to explain what was malfunction if anything and what type of ammo reserve they had. T-72 with only Commander MG working, would still cause troops to run, a unit taking to the field with even a towed how. would cause the opposing force to be nervous. By 2000 it was the unknown on if they were operational or not. I can imagine seeing even Company or Battalion size force show up and setting up mortars would be bit unnerving to an militia unit that short on ammo, even though the other force may have two to four round per mortar tub. The average militia person wouldn't know that after they fired their first rounds...

Just some thoughts.

That's the problem with the display pieces, they have all been demilled which means that at least three holes have been cut into the tank barrel, the breech is either missing or has been welded in place.

Its likely that armored cars from the various transport firms (like Wells Fargo or Loomis) would be used. Their firing ports are cur for either pistols or shotguns. The larger interstate transports (think armored Greyhound Bus) would be used, but these are very rare. The most likely candiate would be home-built armored trucks, doesn't have to stop antitank rounds, but a 1/2-inch to 1 inch would stop most pistol/rifle rounds.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah the New America module in southern Florida covered that. Their Armored Cavalry and Fast Cavalry were built around the various Armor Cars from these companies.

[HorseSoldier]

That's the problem with the display pieces, they have all been demilled which means that at least three holes have been cut into the tank barrel, the breech is either missing or has been welded in place.


Agreed, though for settlements with some engineering know how but without the wherewithal to build a cannon foundry, it wouldn't be beyond the realm of the possible to have something like a de-mil'ed 105mm gun converted to a lower pressure black powder breech or muzzle loader. (Of course, putting a 12 pounder Napoleon back in service would probably be even easier . . .)

[dragoon500ly]

Agreed, though for settlements with some engineering know how but without the wherewithal to build a cannon foundry, it wouldn't be beyond the realm of the possible to have something like a de-mil'ed 105mm gun converted to a lower pressure black powder breech or muzzle loader. (Of course, putting a 12 pounder Napoleon back in service would probably be even easier . . .)

Maybe its me....but shooting anything through a demilled barrel just seems like a bad idea...:D

So, and I blame this on my love of watching weird TV shows at odd hours, if you take some heavy gauge steel pipe, get a welder to weld a plate in place at one end...and then heat shrink a slightler larger pipe around the closed off end and have the welder run a thick bead around the pipe again...then drill a touch hole...load with large charge of black powder...then prime the gunner with several shots of moonshine and have him light it off....then you have a homemade cannon.

Or, you can import your 12pdr from Italy and make sure your reenactment battery is ready for post WWIII...;)

[rcaf_777]

Lets not forget about the Avalanche control units of the US state and federal forest service, many of these unit have Working Artillery 105mm or 155mm that fire with ammunition at moutians. Other unit have 90mm RCL, there a show about them on the discovery channel I think?

Here in Canada the Army preforms the task, done various Regluar or Reserve Units

[copeab]

Lets not forget about the Avalanche control units of the US state and federal forest service, many of these unit have Working Artillery 1055mm or 155mm that fire with ammunition at moutians.

Dear God, 1055mm? That's more than double the bore of the Yamato's guns. Do you control avalanches by destroying the mountains? :eek:

[HorseSoldier]

At least some of them also use 106mm recoilless.

The choke point on them, as far as a scavenger sort of economy, is that I think the US government support for those programs doles out ammunition in ones and twos (or whatever) as needed. Someone in the government having made the occasional bright idea that handing out a 90mm or 106mm recoilless rifle and several pallets worth of ammunition in one go has a some very, very bad potential worst case outcomes.

[dragoon500ly]

Dear God, 1055mm? That's more than double the bore of the Yamato's guns. Do you control avalanches by destroying the mountains? :eek:

Doesn't everyone else?

:rolleyes:

[Legbreaker]

Doesn't everyone else?


Nuclear tipped I hope!
:rocketwho

[copeab]

Also, even WWII light tanks like the M3/M5 Stuart have some use. You might not have any ammo for the 37mm cannon, but you still have 2-3 .30-cal / 7.62mm MGs, and the armor is good enough to stop machinegun fire.

[Abbott Shaull]

Also, even WWII light tanks like the M3/M5 Stuart have some use. You might not have any ammo for the 37mm cannon, but you still have 2-3 .30-cal / 7.62mm MGs, and the armor is good enough to stop machinegun fire.

Yeah well like I said even in the Modules people who had modern AFVs their were some cases that all that worked were the MGs... It was pointed out that with the limited AT weapons found at 2000 that many units that weren't supplied with them, didn't stay around to find out if the main gun would fire or not...

[kota1342000]

Interesting that this subject came up, Ive been piecing together some ideas for US 6th Army, and had some ideas for activating some new units and rebuilding some old ones as well.
Of course I add to canon by adding more Soviet or Soviet backed forces as well.

Now lets see if this works or if Im going to need help;

http://joest2k.wetpaint.com/photo/11509383/m3a2+cav+vehicle

[kota1342000]

...was hoping for an image but the link will do just fine.
This "M2A3" is a simple to build vehicle that can be used as a light Cavalry vehicle or APC. The image and the following links to others are all modifications of images made by the contributors over at Junior General.

http://www.juniorgeneral.org/load.php?Period=0

I agree about the 37mm ammunition as well, so I had another couple of thoughts.

http://joest2k.wetpaint.com/photo/11509386/m8a2+w+25mm+and+mk19
A M8 armored car with a 25mm cannon.

http://joest2k.wetpaint.com/photo/11509387/m20a3+at+vehicle+w+106mm+rcl
A M20 rigged with a .50cal and a 106mm rcl.

http://joest2k.wetpaint.com/photo/11514941/-
A larger APC based on the M3/M9 series of half-tracks but using wheels instead of tracks for easier maintenance.

http://joest2k.wetpaint.com/photo/11509388/m22a6+w+40mm
Someone else had the idea for using 40mm guns for ammunition availability...I had thought the same thing. This is a light tank based on the M22 Locust except with a 40mm gun.

The idea behind these rigs is the ability to improvise them from other types of vehicles, most being chassis for semi-trucks. Facilities for power generation, a foundry, and the mechanical equipment to build the armor, turrets, mounts and additional equipment. Using older armored vehicle plans and patterns ensures easier access to plans and technical drawings that would likely be unavailable for more modern vehicles. Another consideration is not using vehicles that are too large or too heavy to ensure that it wont take a ridiculous amount of time to build and/or convert each vehicle.

[copeab]

http://joest2k.wetpaint.com/photo/11509386/m8a2+w+25mm+and+mk19
A M8 armored car with a 25mm cannon.


I wonder if you could replace the 37mm ATG with a 40mm Mk 19?

http://joest2k.wetpaint.com/photo/11514941/-
A larger APC based on the M3/M9 series of half-tracks but using wheels instead of tracks for easier maintenance.

For the record, the tracks on American halftracks were quite unlike those on tanks; they were roughly one long rubber band, basically, and lasted far longer with less maintenance than tank tracks.

[dragoon500ly]

Nuclear tipped I hope!
:rocketwho

If its worth doing...then its worth over doing! ;)

Besides, there is no such thing as too little when dealing with explosives!!!

[dragoon500ly]

Also, even WWII light tanks like the M3/M5 Stuart have some use. You might not have any ammo for the 37mm cannon, but you still have 2-3 .30-cal / 7.62mm MGs, and the armor is good enough to stop machinegun fire.

Don't forget that the early M-3s used riveted armor, the bolt heads had a nasty habit of shearing when hit!

[kota1342000]

That's true with the rubber tracks, but if you were building APCs like that out of other vehicles, it would probably be much easier to find surplus wheels and tires as opposed to finding or making the rubber tracks. I know lots of snocats and off-road tracked dump trucks use rubber tracks, but those aren't very common.
I had thought about using the Mk19 for main armament but I bet the 19s are more useful for ring mounts and technicals.
But on that note, I was thinking about the 60mm Brandt breech loading mortar that the French developed. I was wondering if it would be easier to build some kind of single shot breech loading 60mm gun/mortar as opposed to milling an entire new gun barrel for a demilled gun or starting from scratch. What does everyone think? (That's with several small motorshops, at least one small steel mill, and a large mechanical shop, all Gen. Pain's stats)

[copeab]

That's true with the rubber tracks, but if you were building APCs like that out of other vehicles, it would probably be much easier to find surplus wheels and tires as opposed to finding or making the rubber tracks.

Sorry, I was thinking of working vehicles, not going A-Team at a junkyard.

I had thought about using the Mk19 for main armament but I bet the 19s are more useful for ring mounts and technicals.

The gunner is better protected in a turret ;)

[copeab]

Don't forget that the early M-3s used riveted armor, the bolt heads had a nasty habit of shearing when hit!

True, but I'm an easier target behind a tripod-mounted MG than a rivet is on a tank ;)

[Canadian Army]

At least some of them also use 106mm recoilless.

The choke point on them, as far as a scavenger sort of economy, is that I think the US government support for those programs doles out ammunition in ones and twos (or whatever) as needed. Someone in the government having made the occasional bright idea that handing out a 90mm or 106mm recoilless rifle and several pallets worth of ammunition in one go has a some very, very bad potential worst case outcomes.

In the early 1990’s, the US Army was out of surplus 75mm and 105mm Recoilless Rifle HE ordnance (HE rounds are the best avalanche control rounds). As a result, the Forest Service replace many of the existing 75mm and 105mm Recoilless Rifle systems with 106mm Recoilless Rifles (basically an updated, lighter version of the 105mm Recoilless Rifle, was used during the Korean and Viet Nam Wars). In December 2002, after several tragic in-bore explosions, the US Forest Service replaced all 106mm Recoilless Rifle with the 105 Howitzers.

Also each year the Washington Department of Transportation positions two M60A3 tanks just west of Stevens Pass for avalanche control.

[dragoon500ly]

True, but I'm an easier target behind a tripod-mounted MG than a rivet is on a tank ;)

Let's not talk about your eating habits, shall we!;)

Of course I'm in shape...round is a shape!

There are a couple of photos of various pre-WWII tanks that were sprayed with machineguns (both .50 and .30-cal)...now the
.50-cal would just punch through the paper-thin armor...but it was the effect of the .30-cal that caught my bloodshot eye....fired from 500 yards, the API bullets still had enough force to crack the rivet heads, sending the bolts flying about the interior....nasty!

[HorseSoldier]

I wonder if you could replace the 37mm ATG with a 40mm Mk 19?

I suspect it would be easier to modify a WW2 era turret set up for 37mm than a conversion to 25mm (at least 25mm M242), since it would be easier to sort out ammunition stowage, feed, and such, as well as not having to adjust the wiring to power the gun. A Mk19 is comparatively compact and uncomplicated, and in an open topped turret wouldn't be too hard to set up to employ the existing sights on the gun.

[kota1342000]

Anyone have thoughts on breech loading mortars that could be used in direct fire?

[Abbott Shaull]

Let's not talk about your eating habits, shall we!;)

Of course I'm in shape...round is a shape!

There are a couple of photos of various pre-WWII tanks that were sprayed with machineguns (both .50 and .30-cal)...now the
.50-cal would just punch through the paper-thin armor...but it was the effect of the .30-cal that caught my bloodshot eye....fired from 500 yards, the API bullets still had enough force to crack the rivet heads, sending the bolts flying about the interior....nasty!

I suppose the crews inside weren't too happy about them either...

[dragoon500ly]

Anyone have thoughts on breech loading mortars that could be used in direct fire?

Sure, the French used just such a mortar on the AML 60-20 that was in use in the 50-70s. It was intended for support roles, but the 60mm mortar could be fired directly, whole thing was breech-loaded. And before anybody chips in about its antiarmor capabilities, it didn't have any, not enough muzzle velocity for the mortar. Direct fire range was about 500m.

[dragoon500ly]

I suppose the crews inside weren't too happy about them either...

The pics are of Aberdeen PG tests on new armor and new methods of securing army. But when the rivited Stuarts saw action in North Africa, there are a lot of horror stories about the injuries caused.

[schnickelfritz]

The easiest solution for the 37mm armed US tanks/afv's would be to just fabricate some adapters to place a M2HB in it's place. I bet you could fabricate the adapters with the tools and materials found in a basic machine shop.

The 50-cal would have plenty of range and hitting power for what you'd see coming at you anyway.

[pmulcahy11b]

The easiest solution for the 37mm armed US tanks/afv's would be to just fabricate some adapters to place a M2HB in it's place. I bet you could fabricate the adapters with the tools and materials found in a basic machine shop.

The 50-cal would have plenty of range and hitting power for what you'd see coming at you anyway.

There are some light autocannons, such as the 20mm Oerlikon KAB, which can be mounted and used as easily as an M-2HB, except for the longer barrel length.

[Targan]

There are some light autocannons, such as the 20mm Oerlikon KAB, which can be mounted and used as easily as an M-2HB, except for the longer barrel length.

ASP 30. 'Nuff said.

[HorseSoldier]

Both would be nice, but keep in mind WW2 era turrets were tight for WW2 era people (though I suppose by 2000 most folks would be making Depression era manual laborers look husky and corn fed), and the problem isn't just the gun it's the ammo, the feed chutes to get it from storage to the gun, and such. Shoe horning all that into a space formerly occupied by a manually loaded single shot gun is going to be a pretty major engineering undertaking.

Realistically, if a government/cantonment/whatever had access to a lot of manufacturing and machining capability, they'd probably be better served dropping in a whole new turret into vintage light AFVs rather than trying to jury rig a less optimal solution. (Tanks could be a different story, since I don't think anyone circa 2000 -- with the possible exception of the French and maybe Japanese -- has the capability to fabricate new MBT turrets).

[Adm.Lee]

I think you'd be better off just using the co-ax MG, and/or pointing the 37mm at your enemy. After all, they don't KNOW you don't have any shells or canister for it....

[dragoon500ly]

You know, as intresting as it is to think about getting your hands on an old tank or armored car, there really are not that many available that are in good enough condition to rebuild. I took the time this afternoon to look over a tank on display at Camp Shelby with a buddy of mine and we can confirm that not only was the barrel demilled and the breech missing, there was not even an engine pack in the vehicle, the fire control equipment had been removed and there wasn't an intact gauge in the tank. This one would certainly require the services of Anniston Depot to get it into any kind of order.

I've been rereading O'Jerusalem and there is a section on how the Israelis rebuilt trucks into ad-hoc armored cars. The would sandwich boiler plate on the hood, cab, and body, stuffing the space in between with rubber, cement, gravel and a variety of other fillings. It was crude, it couldn't stop antitank rounds, but it did stop fragments and .30 caliber rounds. Just a random thought, but would it not be possible that this sort of home-built be a lot more common?

[Legbreaker]

Here's another thought - say you do get your hands on a few 50+ year old armoured vehicles and do manage to get them running again.

Where is the average township/tin pot dictator/etc going to get the heavy weaponry to put in it? At best they're likely to have little mroe than a few assault rifles to stiffen the hunting rifles, shotguns and pistols arming much of their force.

How many police departments have a .50 call machinegun, 20mm autocanon or even 60mm mortar in their armoury? How many survivalist groups would have gotten away with acquiring anything heavy, or if they did, sufficient ammunition to train with, let alone conduct any sort of operation?

To my mind, APCs whether ex military or jerrybuilt will be far more useful than an old tank.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

While I agree that a tank has limited utility for a community compared to an armoured truck or a proper APC and getting ammo for them would be pretty much impossible, there are some places in the US where heavier weapons are allowed to be owned by civilians.
For example although I don't know what state it is, you can own 40mm grenade launchers and also recoiless rifles but you cannot get explosive ammo for them (only smoke, if I remember the article correctly).
In Texas they have a collector's club for flamethrowers... should give the Mexican invasion something to think about, dozens of angry Texans wielding flamethrowers :D

[HorseSoldier]

How many police departments have a .50 call machinegun, 20mm autocanon or even 60mm mortar in their armoury? How many survivalist groups would have gotten away with acquiring anything heavy, or if they did, sufficient ammunition to train with, let alone conduct any sort of operation?


+1 on both points. My department has some select fire small arms in service with the SWAT team, but nothing heavier than 5.56mm, and caliber footprint maxes out at a .50 cal sniper rifle or two and some 37mm less lethal launchers (again, all belonging to SWAT -- patrol officers are authorized shotguns and semi-only AR-15s and similar). And while we do have a decent stockpile of ammunition, it's not adequate for any sort of sustained operations. I don't think any larger departments would be able to trot out much more military weaponry -- liability issues completely preclude anyone deploying a machine gun or mortar for law enforcement purposes.

Survivalists -- meh, though if the Cold War had kept going into the mid 90s and there was a tensing run up to world war when the Sino-Soviet war kicked off, I could see that school of thought having broader appeal and more adherents than it did in the real world (the New America storyline implies survivalism was a lot more popular in th the T2K US than in the real world). Heavy weapons for most of those people would be right out, though I did have an Ops NCO who swore that in the late 80s when his ODA was going some training in Idaho they were in ear shot of the sort of place usually referred to by the press as a "compound" and heard what was unmistakably someone putting rounds through an M60 machine gun.

[dragoon500ly]

In Texas they have a collector's club for flamethrowers... should give the Mexican invasion something to think about, dozens of angry Texans wielding flamethrowers :D

:schuss:

Now why would dozens of Texans wielding flamethrowers be scary? It's the tens of thousands of Texans armed with hunting rifles in every caliber known to man that would scare me!!

[HorseSoldier]

For example although I don't know what state it is, you can own 40mm grenade launchers and also recoiless rifles but you cannot get explosive ammo for them (only smoke, if I remember the article correctly).

40mm launchers aren't too exotic (though certainly a kind of fringe portion of the US firearms market) and you can actually even legally possess HE ammo for them. The catch is that each individual round is a controlled item and subject to a federal $200 tax stamp and BATFE approval. Submitting paperwork for a pallet of 40mm HEDP ammo (if anyone was willing to sell that quantity to a private citizen in the first place) would definitely put someone on the radar in a big way with federal authorities.

[Legbreaker]

In otherwords, technically possible, but exceptionally unlikely anyone would just happen to have any laying about....

[Panther Al]

40mm launchers aren't too exotic (though certainly a kind of fringe portion of the US firearms market) and you can actually even legally possess HE ammo for them. The catch is that each individual round is a controlled item and subject to a federal $200 tax stamp and BATFE approval. Submitting paperwork for a pallet of 40mm HEDP ammo (if anyone was willing to sell that quantity to a private citizen in the first place) would definitely put someone on the radar in a big way with federal authorities.

I want to say there might be a way around the one round one license thing, but I am not sure. Only reason I say that is back when I lived in Colorado I knew two -not one, two- guys with legal Mk19's, and they never appeared to lack for ammo.

[Legbreaker]

...two- guys with legal Mk19's, and they never appeared to lack for ammo.

They had them for hunting squirrels right?

[pmulcahy11b]

They had them for hunting squirrels right?

No, you rear-mount them and use them to hunt tailgaters.

[Legbreaker]

I thought that's what flamethrowers, mine layers and spike droppers are for?
Yes, I'm channelling Car Wars at the moment. :p

[Targan]

Only reason I say that is back when I lived in Colorado I knew two -not one, two- guys with legal Mk19's, and they never appeared to lack for ammo.

Far out. The US of A never ceases to amaze me.

[dragoon500ly]

Far out. The US of A never ceases to amaze me.

There's a place up in Tennessee that has a annual full-auto shoot-off. The name of the town escapes me at the moment as I have not yet had my morning caffine fix, but its three days of just about every automatic weapon that has ever been produced...and all are Class Three legal! And seeing some 200 weapons on the firing line at the same time is damnded impressive!

[pmulcahy11b]

There's a place up in Tennessee that has a annual full-auto shoot-off. The name of the town escapes me at the moment as I have not yet had my morning caffine fix, but its three days of just about every automatic weapon that has ever been produced...and all are Class Three legal! And seeing some 200 weapons on the firing line at the same time is damnded impressive!

IIRC, Knob Creek. They had a Bofors L/60 there last year.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Yeah, its Knob Creek;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob_Creek_Gun_Range

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31vm3-BQRJU

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/877252/best_machine_gun_highlights_reel_from_knob_creek_e xplosions_mus/

I'd love to get a trip there sometime, looks lke great craic. Unfortunately I live in a country where its nigh on impossible to get a firearms license of any sort :(

[dragoon500ly]

IIRC, Knob Creek. They had a Bofors L/60 there last year.

not to mention the 5.56mm/7.62mm and .50-caliber versions of the Minigun...

hmmmmmmm .50-caliber minigun.....just picture how much damage you could do at rush hour with one of those in the bed of your pickup!

[Abbott Shaull]

You know it was one of the things that the guys at GDW did get right, in that they stated that many of the old gun ADA was now being used effectively against ground target since there was very little need of it to be used to attempt to shoot down the various misc. aircraft that menace the air before.

[dragoon500ly]

You know it was one of the things that the guys at GDW did get right, in that they stated that many of the old gun ADA was now being used effectively against ground target since there was very little need of it to be used to attempt to shoot down the various misc. aircraft that menace the air before.

Tell me about it!

In Vietnam, the ADA battalions had a .50-caliber battery attached to them, the TO&E provide for 25 M-60 mgs and 24 Quad .50-calibers, picture a human-wave assault going into something like that!!!!

[Abbott Shaull]

Tell me about it!

In Vietnam, the ADA battalions had a .50-caliber battery attached to them, the TO&E provide for 25 M-60 mgs and 24 Quad .50-calibers, picture a human-wave assault going into something like that!!!!

As long as I am not a member of the human-wave assault, it wouldn't be pretty.

[Dog 6]

The guy down the road from me has 2 WW 2 tanks an M-3 and an M-5 and a half track to boot.

[dragoon500ly]

The guy down the road from me has 2 WW 2 tanks an M-3 and an M-5 and a half track to boot.

That's cool...there was a guy in Virginia who was offering his M-41 Walker Bulldog for sale for $90,000...poor guy had to get rid of the tank due to his divorce...

What kind of inhuman monster makes a man give up his tank!!!!!;)

Too bad I didn't have the $90,000!!!:(