Surplus armor in T2K

[schnickelfritz]

To all-
I'm sorry if this has been discussed here previously, as I am new to the forum.

I reenact WW2 and have had the luck of coming into contact with WW2 and postwar armor from a variety of nations. In the Midwest US we have M-5 tanks, your odd M4A3 Sherman, M-36's, a pair of Hetzer/G-13 tank destroyers, and a gaggle of US M-2 & M-3 series half tracks. There are even several (four that I've seen and/or touched personally) Czech OT-810 halftracks running within a hundred mile radius of Chicago.

Has the use of older armor (including obsolete cold war stuff) been ever discussed for a CONUS campaign? The half tracks and scout cars are fairly common for what they are, but I see some real wierd stuff from time to time pop up that had been practically hidden in garages over the years.

Just don't ask me why someone would go through all that trouble to never run it or show it...I can't get my head around that one.

It would seem to me that having a half track and/or M-20 available to a local militia would be really valuable, even if only armed with 30 or 50-cal MG's. With the exception of the German WW2 stuff, most of if cannot be easier to work on. Occaisionally I see something like a M5 Stuart pop up in a town square from time to time. There is even a M60A3 in very good shape about 20 miles from here that was donated 5-10 years ago. It appears to be a M60A3 TTS.

About 2 miles from here a guy built a M35 2.5ton gun truck ala Vietnam...no, it is not named "Eve of Destruction." it still looks sharp in black with red lettering, though.

-Thoughts?

Thanks!
Dave

[raketenjagdpanzer]

There is a guy in California - you can see his collection on Tank Fixers - who has no fewer than 20 operational or at the worst semi-operational MBTs spanning all eras including the 1970's/80's with a handful of T62s and '72s.

Additionally, he has a machine shop capable of completely rebuilding tanks if need be.

I think the guy is far enough away from any metropolitan areas that in the event he'd be safe...and he'd become a huge asset for whomever could convince him (in whatever manner) to work for them - CivGov, MilGov, marauders, what have you.

Shit I could see in terms of sheer desperation stuff being pulled out of armor and military museums; a working Sherman is still a tank, and when your opponent is a bunch of guys with hunting rifles crouched behind a log and dirt berm...well...advantage: tank owner.

[Legbreaker]

Even without working weaponry/ammo an armoured vehicle is still very valuable. Firstly there's the intimidation factor, and secondly, they literally weigh tonnes! They can roll over and crush infantry, light vehicles and emplacements.
Naturally equipping said older AFVs with working weaponry only enhances their value.

Almost anywhere you look in the world you will find collectors or museums which will either be raided or form the core of an armoured force of some type. As a GM, almost anything can be justified, provided of course it's not the local US police force armed with a brand new T-80 (A T-55 is possible though).

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

It would seem to me that having a half track and/or M-20 available to a local militia would be really valuable, even if only armed with 30 or 50-cal MG's. With the exception of the German WW2 stuff, most of if cannot be easier to work on. Occaisionally I see something like a M5 Stuart pop up in a town square from time to time. There is even a M60A3 in very good shape about 20 miles from here that was donated 5-10 years ago. It appears to be a M60A3 TTS.

About 2 miles from here a guy built a M35 2.5ton gun truck ala Vietnam...no, it is not named "Eve of Destruction." it still looks sharp in black with red lettering, though.

Dave,

Welcome to the list (or at least with regards to posting actively).

I don't think this has been specifically discussed but it's very germane. During the Yugoslav civil war, T-34/85s were pulled out of museums and other places (the back of the motor pool in some cases) and thrown into battle. The following is a knocked-out T-34/85. The middle road wheels are from a T-55:



At any rate, it makes sense that anything would be pressed into service. In the Aftermath adventure "Empire of Karo" the city-state has put some M4 Shermans into service by installing diesel bus engines.

What would the stats be for an older tank like an M4, powered by a bus engine? Just curious.

Tony

[irishboy]

I've got a tangent to go off on here.

I read a newspaper article about this company a year or two ago, and comments of the OP made me think of it right away.

http://www.driveatank.com/

This is a business run by a collector. There were postings for 'tanks for sale' even!

This all happens about 90 minutes south of Minneapolis, MN.

Back to the topic though, it's a great point. There's quite a few armored vehicles out there if you know where to look.

[Canadian Army]

There would also would be fare number of M113s around; as a number of police departments used it for SWAT operations; and fair bit in private hands (museums and private collections). On a side note NASA has three used for for emergency evacuation/firefighting.

[dragoon500ly]

There are a suprisingly large number of M-114s running around with the police, as well as V-100 and V-150 armored cars.

[HorseSoldier]

Additionally, he has a machine shop capable of completely rebuilding tanks if need be.

That would be part of the trick. The bottlenecks I see for vintage or unusual AFVs would include:

1) Mechanical know how -- You've got to have someone who can keep the thing(s) running. In some cases this wouldn't be too tough, in some cases it would be a huge trick (i.e. the Patton Museum has all kinds of trouble in real life just getting their Panther to crank and drive around a bit; post-apocalypse it's not going to be spearheading MilGov's drive to recapture Memphis).

2) Automotive logistics -- Either a big stack of spare or #1 plus something like the machine shop mentioned in the quote above or else you're either going to have static pill boxes or be leaving a trail of broken down antiques in your wake behind you during movements.

3) Ammunition and associated logistics -- Again, this one can be an easy one or a hard one depending on the specific weapons and such. I could be completely wrong, but I don't think the US government has any stocks anywhere of 76mm ammo to support an operational M4A3E8 Sherman, for instance. Short of a group coming into possession of a forgotten 50s era emergency stockpile, main guns wouldn't be supportable for most of the vintage US stuff. (Such a stockpile could explain sustainable supplies of spare parts and maybe even the vehicles themselves, too . . .)

4) Local stability -- If marauders are killing off your mechanical know how and burning the barns containing your antique armor to the ground before you can get the stuff combat ready, it's a show stopper. Likewise if things are so desperate that your mechanics have to spend all their time trying to hunt rats for the collective stew pot just to survive, it's a show stopper as well.

For CONUS operations post-TDM, I think the vintage armor I'd really want to lay hands on would be some M42 Dusters -- 40mm ammo would still have been available (even without alternate historying it to have the Sgt York program successful and in service) and enough vehicles and parts would have been around to keep them running if you had access to them (I always wonder about wikipedia, but it says the last NG unit equipped with them didn't retire them until 1988.) And from accounts from Korea and Vietnam, those things were absolute murdering pieces against troops in the open.

[Adm.Lee]

I think a GM running anywhere in the States could get away with a town or city militia having at least one static ex-tank. The number of American Legion or VFW posts with Shermans out front on display makes that possible.

Surely they could turn up the horsepower to drag such a hulk somewhere useful (like overlooking a bridge?) and re-install a machine gun and a phone.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by irishboy

http://www.driveatank.com/

This is a business run by a collector. There were postings for 'tanks for sale' even!

This all happens about 90 minutes south of Minneapolis, MN.

Theres a few collectors here in Australia too that keep working AFVs for joyrides and sales. I've even heard of a couple of old Centurions being used as farm tractors.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

For CONUS operations post-TDM, I think the vintage armor I'd really want to lay hands on would be some M42 Dusters -- 40mm ammo would still have been available (even without alternate historying it to have the Sgt York program successful and in service) and enough vehicles and parts would have been around to keep them running if you had access to them (I always wonder about wikipedia, but it says the last NG unit equipped with them didn't retire them until 1988.) And from accounts from Korea and Vietnam, those things were absolute murdering pieces against troops in the open.

...or buildings. I'm reading a book about the battle of Hue and there are descriptions of Dusters collapsing entire masonry buildings with 40mm fire. For similar reasons, the Russians found their ZU-23-4 Shilka's to be their deadliest urban warfare weapon in Grozny.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Theres a few collectors here in Australia too that keep working AFVs for joyrides and sales. I've even heard of a couple of old Centurions being used as farm tractors.

That happens in a lot of former Eastern Bloc countries and Russia -- vehicles are demilled and used by logging companies, as vehicles to transport scientific teams across rough terrain, as rescue vehicles in firefighting, and other stuff. There's even a version of the BMP-1 called the Ladoga which is a luxury vehicle inside, and transport for VIPs in hazardous areas on the outside.

[Legbreaker]

I believe somewhere in north America (could be US, could be Canada) there's an M60 tank which is used for triggering avalanches (saw it on a doco a few years back).

[Raellus]

"Surplus armor" owned by civilian citizens would probably be overlooked by the military until things started to get really bad (post-TDM). At that point, private collections near military installations would probably be commandeered, restored, and used in some capacity. Collections in out-of-the-way places might be commandeered by civilian defense forces or aspiring warlords. Whether such groups could actually operate said vehicles is an open question.

As several folks have already pointed out, keeping such vehicles up and running is going to be rather difficult and it's likely that many of them are going to end up as static pillboxes or showpieces sooner or later.

I figure most such private collections are very small (one or two vehicles at most) but there are a couple of very large collections here in the U.S. There's at least one such mega-collection in Nevada, I believe. There was an AFV restoration show on Military Channel or Discovery a couple of years back that featured several vehicles acquired and restored by a wealthy patron's hand-picked crew. They had all kinds of WWII and Cold-War era AFVs- everything from a Hellcat TD to a fomer target-range Sherman to a Centurion MBT to a German Panther recovered from a Polish river. All were restored to operational condition.

[Matt W]

The US Forest Service has a number of artillery pieces (and tanks) for avalanche control.

This might inspire some ideas

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.p...ic=29295&st=20

[schnickelfritz]

The gentleman on the US West Coast with the huge MV collection is(was) the late Jaques Littlefield. He was out of the San francisco area and his estate is still functional (he passed in 2009) as the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...ogy_Foundation

http://www.mvtf.org/index.html

A German Pzkpfw IV Panther of any version was a nightmare to keep running, even under the best of circumstances. A recently retired M60A3 with a complete interior/driveline that could be crewed/maintained by veterans at the local VFW's would be a lot easier by comparison.

I wouldn't try to do that either, probably more so because it would totally imbalance the scenario/game.

What I had in mind were some of the easier to maintain MV's, especially those that have a lagely truck based driveline. As far as tanks go, the M3/M5 Stuart and M24 Chaffee (and derivatives) are powered with older GM V-8's ( flathead Cadillacs). I've seen an M5 repowered with a single basic 350 Chevy because the owner got a largely stripped hulk. Any place you can put a GM V-8, you can put the 6.2L/6.5L diesel from a HMMWV.

The White M3 Scout Car and M-2/3 series half tracks are ideal here; they won't totally imbalance a scenario, they are just as simple as it gets, and just about any truck mechanic can keep it running. You don't have to keep it running exactly the way it was built; you can always swap in the engine/trans and/or driveline of a HMMWV or M35.

The US half tracks really are trucks with the rear axles replaced with a rubber band track. Given some enginuity and the metalworking tools found on most farms, machine shops, and tool rooms, repairs and ressurection can be performed on an old MV within reason, especially if you have a covered workplace and all winter to work on it.

I've seen ground up restorations and band-aid grade restorations done by hobbyists with some aptitude and a decent trck based welder. Look around; there are heavy equipment repair trucks wherever you have excavating companies. If they don't have one on site, they have one on call. Most have a welder, air compressor, tools, and a crane in the 1-5 ton range, depending on the size of the repair truck.

It all depends on what you want to use it for. Do you want to do regular patrols with it? Perhaps then a surplus Ferret, M-3 scout car, or M-8/M-20 is better. They are easier on fuel and easier to keep running. For use as a response force, a couple of M-3 half tracks and/or gun trucks would work nicely. There was also a M-3 half track with a 81mm mortar in it called the M-4.

I'd really recommend anyone with an interest in this look around and find a reenactment local to them. There are several in Chicago throughout the warmer months and you can get up close to some of these vehicles and see just how easy they are to work on.

I just want to say that the intent was not to suggest trying to take a M-46/M-47/M-48 Patton off a concrete pad and attempt to use it. Most have been sitting far too long and have been stripped of most of the interior and driveline anyway. Most that I see probably aren't worth the fuel to drag them with bulldozers and the expertise you'd need to get it running probably isn't there anyway.

However, what's to say you couldn't get a M-5 Stuart running? The cannon barrel would have been plugged and the breech ring removed (the breech unscrews on the US 37mm), so I'd toss it and slide in a 50-cal MG. Pair that with a pair of 30-cal MG's in the hull/coax spots and you're in business.

Were some of the steering brakes unusable, you could probably cobble something together from a medium size bulldozer.

The Stuart also has the appeal of having dual driver controls; you can teach someone to drive while you ride in the bow gunner spot.

I wouldn't even bother trying to find, much less use ancient cannon/howitzer ammo. Even if you could find it, the main guns on almost all retired AFV's have been demilled by plugging the barrel and torch cutting the breach. Putting a live round in even a repaired weapon is asking for a fatal accident.

Were I to have time, I might even try to kitbash a model of a M5 Stuart hull with a Bradley turret on it!

Here are some of the vehicles I had in mind:
M-3 Scout Car
M-8 Armored Car
M-20 Armored Utility Car
Ferret Armored Car (UK)
Saracen 6x6 APC (UK)
Humber Pig (UK)
M-2 Half track
M-3 Half Track
M-3/M-5 Stuart Light Tank
M-24 Chaffee Light Tank
Universal (Bren) Carrier APC (UK/Canada)

I've tried to keep this at least semi-plausable, i.e. keeping it to those vehicles I've seen for sale in the US and those I've seen in the flesh wihin a couple hour drive of Chicago.

Like I said, I encourage anyone to get out there and take a look at the real thing if you can!

Thanks,
Dave

[boogiedowndonovan]

The Military Vehicle Technology Foundation collection is on the outskirts of Silicon Valley, about 40 minutes south of San Francisco and about 20 minutes from Stanford University. Any northern california T2kers up for a tour?

The more modern US military vehicles would likely be requistioned by the reforming 40th Mechanized Division or other elements of 6th Army. Maybe the Stanford and Silicon Valley geeks are able to keep some of the older vehicles running, fabricate parts, or otherwise modified etc.

It would be interesting to see what vehicles the foundation obtained before and after the real world Cold War draw down.

What about vehicles used as "gate guards"? How much work would need to be done to get them into working condition. I assume that the hull is still relatively intact, but the weapons have been removed or otherwise disabled and the engine removed.

[Legbreaker]

You'd have to assume that in most cases the suspension is still in a reasonably working order - the vehicles may have to be moved around the museum from time to time and it's far easier to tow than lift with a crane.

[waiting4something]

I wonder how many military vehicles have been stolen that are in private civilian hands. I could see like a M48 sitting in someones storage shed. There was a case awhile back where some guys stole over a hundred military vehicles from Fort McCoy. It seems likely to me this could happen easily when you have stuff that is no longer being used. The guy at the gate most likely wouldn't think much of it.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/1996...t-ring-broken/

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I wonder how many military vehicles have been stolen that are in private civilian hands. I could see like a M48 sitting in someones storage shed. There was a case awhile back where some guys stole over a hundred military vehicles from Fort McCoy. It seems likely to me this could happen easily when you have stuff that is no longer being used. The guy at the gate most likely wouldn't think much of it.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/1996...t-ring-broken/

speaking of which, anyone remember when a mentally disturbed person broke into a National Guard armory and stole an M-60?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zINN5EUMwwc

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Dave,

Welcome to the list (or at least with regards to posting actively).

I don't think this has been specifically discussed but it's very germane. During the Yugoslav civil war, T-34/85s were pulled out of museums and other places (the back of the motor pool in some cases) and thrown into battle...

Tony

I knew a guy many years back who toured Yugoslavia before the civil war and the two of us being interested in things military, he endeavoured to take photos of the various military things he saw (sometimes he was lucky, other times he wasn't).
One thing he wanted to take a pic of, that he couldn't because he was on holidays with his family (and they didn't want to stop the car so he could indulge his desires) was a group of tanks.

He was on a motorway when he spotted some army base or another and the vehicle park was filled with softskins and some APCs but what he wanted to photograph was the lines of T-34s parked up at the back of the motor pool. He estimated the number of T-34s at around the 80-100 mark.
This was a few years before the Yugoslav civil war and if I remember rightly, it was in the region of the Croatian/Serbian border (I think he and his family were heading for Belgrade).

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

speaking of which, anyone remember when a mentally disturbed person broke into a National Guard armory and stole an M-60?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zINN5EUMwwc

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.

Instead, two cops pop the loaders hatch and blast the guy with a dozen 9mm...

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

speaking of which, anyone remember when a mentally disturbed person broke into a National Guard armory and stole an M-60?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zINN5EUMwwc

I thought this was one of the coolest things ever captured on film. It was way better then that Tiananmen Square tank bullshit.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.

I can't blame the cops for this one. It's not like part of their training should have been on how to disable a tank.

Now, I'm sure men from the National Guard could have known how to do this, but there are legal issues in using them.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.

Instead, two cops pop the loaders hatch and blast the guy with a dozen 9mm...

I agree with you once he was hung up and wasn't posing a threat they could have done something non-lethal like throw some CS gas in the tank. I mean it didn't look like he was going anywhere. Of course, this is if they had time to get some CS grenades from the armory. If he did break free again I could see shooting him though. A lot of what you discribed on how to stop it only someone with knowledge in armor would know. Your average joe would be thinking how the hell do I stop this thing.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.

You can't be serious. Think about it.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by copeab

I can't blame the cops for this one. It's not like part of their training should have been on how to disable a tank.

Now, I'm sure men from the National Guard could have known how to do this, but there are legal issues in using them.

Well as for the legal issues, it does take awhile for the paper trail chain to catch up with events.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.

Instead, two cops pop the loaders hatch and blast the guy with a dozen 9mm...

Uhm... I would have to agree with others. Lot of the things you mention to stop the tank, wouldn't of been known to many people outside of people who had served in the military.

As for opening the loaders hatch and blasting the guy with 9mm, yeah that was overkill.

I totally agree once he got hung up, they could simply wait him out.

[Abbott Shaull]

The thing is not only surplus Armor. At the Lake Superior State University campus there is not only old M60 tank, but also what looks to be 105mm How., maybe it 75mm one. The point is I have seen lot of the old artillery pieces spread out in front of this Armory or out on display here.

Not claiming that it would be easy to get any of these surplus piece in proper working order. Yet one paragraph in the game where it explain even if the unit wasn't entirely operational, have a few AFVs or IFVs or Armor Cars were more than enough to swing a battle into their owner favor. Especially if you were up against forces not equipped to take on such vehicles it was easier to run than stand and fight.

In many cases where a particular faction had Vehicle or artillery pieces they went to great details to explain what was malfunction if anything and what type of ammo reserve they had. T-72 with only Commander MG working, would still cause troops to run, a unit taking to the field with even a towed how. would cause the opposing force to be nervous. By 2000 it was the unknown on if they were operational or not. I can imagine seeing even Company or Battalion size force show up and setting up mortars would be bit unnerving to an militia unit that short on ammo, even though the other force may have two to four round per mortar tub. The average militia person wouldn't know that after they fired their first rounds...

Just some thoughts.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by copeab

I can't blame the cops for this one. It's not like part of their training should have been on how to disable a tank.

Now, I'm sure men from the National Guard could have known how to do this, but there are legal issues in using them.

There are a lot of stories floating around the NG about various NG officers/NCOs calling the CHiPs and telling them how to disable the tank by doing just that. Wouldn't have required the NG to physically do it, just tell a cop what to do...and don't forget the cops knew enough to use a hammer to pop the loader's vison block hatch and reach in to open the hatch...they listened to at least some of what they were told...

Don't get me wrong, IF the police were convinced that he posed harm, then they had every right to do so....but this was a NG tank that means no ammunition, no crew-served weapons, no firing pin for the main gun, it was also straddling a highway barricade...the tank wasn't going anywhere else that day. IIRC they had to use two cranes to get the tank off of the barriers, it wasn't going to do it on its own.

As for the cops not having tear gas available....look at the news footage, there were at least three officers running around with tear gas launchers.

And there is this to consider as well, the tank driver has been accused of being mentally incomptent...my own opinion is that if he was not responsible for his own actions, then empting a 9mm into him was excessive.