USS Saratoga Fate [Archive]

Rainbow Six

01-20-2011, 05:53 AM

Hi Dave,

With a few notable exceptions (the USS Corpus Christi obviously, the cruiser in Satellite Down - USS Virginia iirc?), published material is fairly sparse on details of specific ships, although there are a few fairly sweeping generalisations (I don't have the exact quote but possibly the most well known one is the reference to the "last major fleet" being destroyed sometime in 1997).

Beyond that there's a few snippets here and there - the USS John Hancock is the flagship of the Omega fleet, the RDF sourcebook lists what's in the Gulf (at least for the US, can't recall for the others), the USS Tarawa is mentioned in the V2 aviation guide as still being afloat in 2000 (in the Baltic I think?). The Last Sub trilogy has a few more references (istr a largish US warship is quoted as going down off Cyprus), and there are probably a few others here and there, but it is hunting needles in haystacks...

Cheers

Dave

Legbreaker

01-20-2011, 04:22 PM

Besides those RS has mentioned, and those listed in the RDF Sourcebook as being in the middle east, there are no other ships anywhere in canon.
But the world's a big place. There might be one or two more in Virgina's conditon being used in a similar manner. It's extremely unlikely any would be undamaged though, or even have more than a skeleton crew and minimal ammunition.

schnickelfritz

01-20-2011, 06:12 PM

In at least one thread, the USS Saratoga was stated as having been beached somewhere on the Flodida coast. Can anyone provide details on how she ended up in that state?
Thanks!
Dave

Legbreaker

01-20-2011, 07:51 PM

It's likely that is simply somebodies individual opinion - it's certainly not backed up by any of the canon material.
Chances are, if that is where you would like to place the vessel in your T2K world, it was heavily damaged by submarine or sea mines while close to the shore. Rather than have it sink to the bottom of the ocean, the captain may have chosen to beach and hope something could be salvaged.
It's also possible it (and other ships in the area) were subject to nuclear attack.

helbent4

01-21-2011, 05:25 AM

In at least one thread, the USS Saratoga was stated as having been beached somewhere on the Flodida coast. Can anyone provide details on how she ended up in that state?

Dave,

Yes, that was RaketenJagdpanzer's personal Florida campaign:

The strikes happen pretty much as in the 1.0 background. Kennedy gets spared slightly by its bursts hitting out to sea and going off underwater due to malfunction. Patrick AFB is unharmed and becomes the keys to recovery in the area.

The I-4 corridor is pretty hosed, but Tampa/CENTCOM fallout went more southeast than northwest. Orlando and locations north and northwest did "OK", with MCO and SFB being key points for relief (what little has come).

As explained in 1.0-relevant sourcebooks, though, the Sunshine State has given rise to a lot of separatist elements which will be a problem for years to come. As I pointed out, the USS Saratoga is grounded of Port Richie, in a "maybe-someday" recoverable state. The chief concern is whether or not her reactor is safe and stable.

FL ANG units out of Jacksonville and USMC Reserve, Army Reserve and NTSC Orlando trainees are the bulk of the military presence in Florida, totaling around 2800 personnel. The Transportatiton and Paymaster reservists based out of Orlando provide the bulk of the mobility to units in Central Florida with their small number of HEMTTs, and the link between Central Florida and other regions is tenuous at best. Some transport aircraft remain, bolstered by rotary-wing and prop a/c from the USS Saratoga, and 3 functional, stored F15Ds also remain (but essentially grounded since a mere few hours' flying time worth of JP-8 remain).

SFB (Sanford International Airport) and to a lesser degree MCO (Orlando International Airport) have taken the bulk of relief flights; the surrounding environs near both airports are heavily patrolled by local militia (consisting of a great number of retired middle-aged veterans of Vietnam and Korea) aligned with both MilGov and CivGov. Unlike other areas of the country these two groups conflicts rarely involve more than catcalls, showing the international bird of peace to one another, and so on.

St. Augustine's civil government relocated to the near-indestructible fortress located in the old town. Nothing short of a demolition nuclear charge could bring the complex down and it is now the nerve center for recovery and civil government on Florida's northeast coast.

The chief damage done to Florida has been the repeated "surprise" hurricanes, although the judicious use of E2C Hawkeyes from the beached Saratoga, combined with the meteorological skills of NASA and Patrick AFB personnel have gone a long, long way to mitigating the damage by warning the remaining population centers as best they can...

The post doesn't reference how it got there, you can PM RakJgpz on how it gets there in his opinion.

Tony

Olefin

04-05-2012, 12:00 AM

Troubled Waters - John Hancock and three Forest Sherman DD

Frank Frey's Kenya module of which he has posted details here saying one CG and several destroyers and frigates

Tarawa as already mentioned

The RDF fleet including a Des Moines, an assault carrier and a missile

Assumptions from canon

1) At least some escorts for the 6000 men who transited the Med to get to the RDF in Dec of 2000- the Med is a very dangerous place as per Med Cruise - and there is no way else they got to Saudi from Europe on a collection of old ships in six weeks any other way than thru the Med (RDF module)

2) the guys in Korea didnt get there by swimming (general timeline, US Army Vehicle Guide)

3) Alaska - there were US troops in the Aleutians and who raided into Russia over the Bering Strait - again they didnt swim so that means a USN presence of some sort (same as 2)

4) Yugoslavia - most likely at least a minor USN presence there to support ops (same as 2)

Targan

04-05-2012, 06:57 AM

4) Yugoslavia - most likely at least a minor USN presence there to support ops (same as 2)

Well, not strictly USN. USN assets under CivGov command maybe, and maybe they refer to themselves as USN but the bulk of the USN would view them as renegades. Remember, as far as US forces go the Yugoslavia AO is a CivGov show.

Olefin

04-05-2012, 07:17 AM

Actually thats an interesting question as the USN doesnt take mutiny lightly. One thing that they might be would be USN ships that were in mothballs that were being put back into operation and then crewed by men loyal to Civ Gov - i.e. older DD's and possible even the Salem's sister cruiser or cruisers.

As such they may never have officially rejoined the official USN. Either that or MilGov is giving them naval support for the operation on the basis that even though those troops arent answering to them they would rather have them in Europe and not in the US where they could be used against them.

Targan

04-05-2012, 07:21 AM

Olefin, thank you for instantly brightening my mood. That may be the first post of yours with which I fully agree on every point :D

Olefin

04-05-2012, 07:47 AM

Always glad to be of service!

Olefin

04-05-2012, 08:14 AM

Oh and since not everyone may be familiar with what Frank Frey posted on Kenya using his notes plus the notes of several people who communicated with him this is what the canon would have been for his module if he had finished it and published it - and again since he wrote many of the modules I think we can agree on this being "canon" since it was to be a GDW T2000 module

TF 212
• CG 50 USS Valley Forge, one SH-2F Seasprite, (flagship)
• DDG 996 USS Chandler, one SH-2F Seasprite
• DDG 46 USS Preble
• FF 1058 USS Meyerkord, one SH-2F Seasprite
• DD 950 USS Richard S. Edwards

TF 212.1 Support Group
• T-A0 146 Kawishiwi
• AE 22 Mauna Kea
TF 212.2 Patrol Group
• PC 11 Whirlwind
• PC 12 Thunderbolt
• MCM 7 Patriot
• WMEC 725 USCGC Jarvis
• USCGC WPB 1302 Manitou

Edwards is a Forrest Sherman class that in real life was expended in 1997 as a target - here she would have been part of the other Forrest Shermans that were put back in service as mentioned in Troubled Waters (Challenge Magazine article)

While the discussion changed the names of some of the ships for better candidates the composition as to numbers in general stayed the same.

And these ships would be operational ones, not stranded or out of fuel.

raketenjagdpanzer

04-05-2012, 09:54 AM

EDIT: Fixed up the post to reflect that Saratoga is not in fact a CV-N. Can't believe I made that mistake. Anyway, fixes are bolded.

It's always nice to see one's name mentioned.

My thoughts on the Saratoga being where it is were based on the idea that she'd been working the southwest Atlantic, near Florida, and had been ordered to stop convoys of Division Cuba from reaching the coast of Texas. She got into a shooutout with Soviet and Cuban surface elements and while she broke the back of Soviet Naval operations in the region and virtually destroyed the last of the "official" Cuban navy, she absorbed at least a few cruise-missile hits and near misses and was badly crippled. Realizing a ship that could maybe someday be put back in action was preferable to a ship that was a natural reef her commander beached her in the shallows off of Port Ritchie, launching all remaining a/c as she went.

For my campaign purposes, the remaining crew did an able job of damage control, and there is a contingent of Marines and a skeleton crew of sailors on-board to maintain the ship. As the ships condensers are a source of fresh water and her sickbay facilities are (despite being mostly out of supplies) essentially a pre-war quality hospital, plus her considerable machine shop facilities the sparse civilian population near her beached location welcome her presence and trade food with the crew for use of her facilities. The locals also promulgate the story that the Saratoga is a ghost ship, abandoned due to unexploded ammunition and danger of internal collapse. The crew on board maintain this illusion by leaving the outer deck and hull in seemingly poor shape, however the below-deck spaces are maintained to the best possible standards.

For hostiles who refuse to turn back, the Marines on board have full control of the CIWS systems, .50 cal. machine guns, light arms and ad-hoc rocket launchers. How long they could hold out against a dedicated assault is anyone's guess though: the ship is too tempting a target for salvage for New America to just leave alone for too long.

Olefin

04-05-2012, 10:09 AM

Have only been a forum member for a couple of weeks but have been avidly reading the old posts and there is something I feel that needs to be said about the fate of the USN carrier fleet.

A lot of people in the past have gotten their panties in a ringer about any discussions where its offered that USN nuke carriers may be surviving in the late 2000 to early 2001 time period. Most have the "well its not in canon" or "then the US would rule the waves and that would ruin the game for me" kind of flavor or bring out the tired "last fleet is shattered" argument.

However think about what it means for a carrier to be surviving versus being fully operational.

A nuclear carrier could be seaworthy and useable - but not be even close to operational.

You could have inoperable catapults, comm gear destroyed or non-functional, enough props or shafts damaged that she cant operate aircraft anymore, elevators non-functional, damage to the flight deck or hangars that is beyond their ability to repair, - the list goes on and on - but still be seaworthy and able to do something - but definitely not operational as a carier with an air wing

For that matter she doesnt even have to be damaged. Consider this list:

she doesnt have an aviation gas anymore and is in an area where they are out of it - say Europe or Korea - so while the ship works great she cant do anything with her aircraft.

She has av-gas but she is out of weapons and cant get more where she is-

she is at a dock, ready to go, but her reactor is out of fuel

Because of battle losses and spare part issues she doesnt have any operational aircraft left

Now does that mean they are useless - definitely not - but not as carriers anymore. A nuclear fueled ship like that would make a terrific troop or cargo transport (think of how much stuff you can put in her hangar decks) and if just carrying men she could bring several thousand men at once

A ship like that is hardly ruling the waves - especially considering most of them only have some light AA guns and would have to be retrofitted with better guns to defend themselves or they would be sunk by the first ship that has a gun bigger than 76mm they run into - but is still useful and still around for the day when the US gets avgas or can make the repairs

So does Belleau Wood being the last active carrier in the world mean that they are all sunk or damaged badly - not at all -

But if the Stennis is hauling passengers because its catapults are out of order and they cant get the parts then she is still around, still in commission - but definitely not operational as a carrier anymore

Adm.Lee

04-05-2012, 10:40 AM

My thoughts on the Saratoga being where it is were based on the idea that she'd been working the southwest Atlantic, near Florida, ...

For my campaign purposes, the remaining crew did an able job of damage control, and there is a contingent of Marines and a skeleton crew of sailors on-board to maintain the reactor.

If you want the reactor to be working, best change the name of the ship: CV-60 is an oil-burner.
USS Enterprise, Nimitz, Eisenhower, Vinson, T.Roosevelt, Washington, Stennis were the CVNs of 1995. R. Reagan wasn't even laid down until 1998.

Interesting: IRL USS Harry S Truman was launched 7 Sep 96, commissioned 25 July 98. In a T2k world, I surely think the Navy was able to speed her commissioning and deployment? She's under construction at Newport News, an obvious target for a Soviet nuke. Even if not finished, the reactor would be a great thing to have for rebuilding around Norfolk!

raketenjagdpanzer

04-05-2012, 01:03 PM

If you want the reactor to be working, best change the name of the ship: CV-60 is an oil-burner.
USS Enterprise, Nimitz, Eisenhower, Vinson, T.Roosevelt, Washington, Stennis were the CVNs of 1995. R. Reagan wasn't even laid down until 1998.

DOH. D TO THE OH. I'll...fix that... :)

Interesting: IRL USS Harry S Truman was launched 7 Sep 96, commissioned 25 July 98. In a T2k world, I surely think the Navy was able to speed her commissioning and deployment? She's under construction at Newport News, an obvious target for a Soviet nuke. Even if not finished, the reactor would be a great thing to have for rebuilding around Norfolk!

It now makes Norfolk a lot more sensible as the final destination of TF34: assuming you're going with a canon "Going Home", the first place the soldiers see is a town with electricity (well, some, at least in the port facilities) and light industry and maybe (just maybe) they think "Hey, things are getting better" instead of "Hey, we're being thrown off the ship into a postapocalyptic wasteland, let's mutiny right now and go Mad Max on Norfolk."

Legbreaker

04-05-2012, 01:39 PM

A mobile, nuclear powered carrier, even without planes isn't possible.
With the ability to carry thousands of troops and tens of thousands of tonnes of cargo, it's a massive game changer and Omega would have been a completely different kettle of fish. The US wouldn't need the German fuel to get their troops home - just half a dozen Atlantic crossings and a couple of months would have done the job. The ship could transport a full Brigade or more all around the US coastline, reinforcing areas under pressure from the Mexicans. Russians and NA. The Korean units could be brought home, fuel could be transported from the middle east and elsewhere and essentially, the US would rule the waves.

Olefin

04-05-2012, 05:40 PM

No Legbreaker its not a game changer - its a ship used as a transport but one they wont risk too much because basically it needs escorts or its dead meat - along with everyone on it

And Omega was not a gradual evac for a darn good reason - no one wanted to take their turn and believe that MilGov would be back - once those ships showed everyone wanted on

So could they have used a carrier like that for an operation like that or to get the 6000 men to the Middle East - yes for sure

plus remember even if you get avgas and planes - at best you have one or two nuke carriers left in commission - and no one is ruling the waves of an entire planet with one or two nuke carriers with very limited planes and avgas and weapons

even as cargo ships - yes they can keep trade going - but they are still essentially one or two ships - and its a long long way from the East Coast to Kenya or the Middle East or Korea without the two canals in operation

so you get a few trips per year at most out of them - and depending on what ship it is they may not have that much fuel left on board for their reactors

So does it change Omega or the RDF reinforcement - no it doesnt - and in the end it may explain why there was plenty of room or where the US got the fuel to go all the way to the Middle East with those 6000 men - who for all we know came from Norfolk after Omega arrived (nothing in the RDF says they came straight to the RDF from Europe -i.e. they could have come via Norfolk)

the canon still works and in fact it works better and closes several holes - especially if the carrier isnt part of TF 34, instead its a different TF going to the RDF with the 6000 men

Olefin

04-05-2012, 06:01 PM

On and Leg - with the forces that are canon the US is still most likely going to rule the waves - especially if the Texas module results in the players ending up controlling that oil rig and the US getting a ton of av gas - with that in hand you can kiss Mexican and Soviet control of a lot of Texas goodbye - and then the US will have plenty of oil for its fleet

three cruisers, a dozen destroyers and frigates and a carrier and an SSN isnt bad to start with - and I doubt anyone with the possible exception of France could match that anytime soon

and the timing for that is after the events of Troubled Waters (i.e. it will take a few months to get enough oil pumped to really have avgas to attack) - and dont quote Howling Wildnerness or Kidnapped - frankly those modules should be relegated to the status of Bobby is taking a shower on Dallas for a year fantasies of a New American leader and replaced with better modules or scenarios

Targan

04-05-2012, 09:49 PM

and the timing for that is after the events of Troubled Waters (i.e. it will take a few months to get enough oil pumped to really have avgas to attack) - and dont quote Howling Wilderness or Kidnapped - frankly those modules should be relegated to the status of Bobby is taking a shower on Dallas for a year fantasies of a New American leader and replaced with better modules or scenarios
Look, if you want to throw Howling Wilderness and Kidnapped out the window for any campaigns you're running that's fine for you but you're talking like that's a given for any right-thinking T2Ker and I think that's a bit unreasonable. I'd be more likely to ignore the Eastern European Sourcebook or City of Angels (and I won't be ignoring them either). You clearly have lots of experience in RPG forum discussions and you seem to be a good debater but its not very effective to mix and match the way you have in the post I've quoted above. First you're arguing pretty effectively for modifying canon info then in the next sentence you're trying to reinforce your position by saying that two entire modules shouldn't even be factored into the discussion (and saying it in a tone that suggests it should be obvious to everyone).

"... replaced with better modules or scenarios"? Maybe GDW could've done a better job with Howling Wilderness and Kidnapped and a bunch of other modules and sourcebooks but they didn't. Those are what we have. If you're going to argue your points on those angles perhaps you should re-write Howling Wilderness, offer it for perusal, garner some support for it in the T2K community and then maybe you can act like it's a fait accompli.

Olefin

04-05-2012, 11:04 PM

Actually those two modules, as I have stated, is what killed the campaign we were playing in - as I have said before our GM saw Kidnapped as nothing but a party killer and Howling Wildnerness as a "lets kill the US off and turn the game into Mad Max" - and as a result the people playing the game lost interest in continuing on in that kind of environment - and you can see that they wrote themselves into a dead end at GDW as well - one reason I think they returned to Europe was that those two modules killed off the American campaign

so lets go back to Europe where at least civilization has a chance to survive

oh and the Eastern European sourcebook isnt in the original version of the game so we didnt even use it - and City of Angels wasnt bad if you gave the Mexicans actual equipment they would use instead of Sov equipment - basically our GM was going to throw out what they had and substitute equipment from the Texas module - which was a lot of fun and made sense

and its just not me who considers those two modules as being campaign killers - have talked to others who after they saw those modules basically either rebooted their campaigns back in Europe and just ignored Omega to stay in Europe, or who choose to go to the RDF and just circular filed their US modules - all comes down to what you want to play - and if I wanted to play Aftermath I would have played that game - and thats what Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped did

as for factoring in the discussion - the Texas module, if the players win, gives the US the oil they need to finally beat the Mexicans - but that doesnt matter since the whole US basically collapses and dies -

you come home and fight in Texas, beat the New Americans in the Ozarks, help restore order in NY, get the last nuke sub back - and all of it is for nothing once GDW decided to kill off the US - so yes those who loved the game have the right to complain when the creators decide to chuck it all down the can and turn it into Mad Max and have basically the whole US Army fall apart and disappear. Now that doesnt mean everyone has to do that - but reading the board (and I have read most of the posts since I found it) the vast majority agree with that opinion of those two modules

its the same opinion that Chico and the DC Working Group came to in their very entertaining posts - but again its an opinion

however I stand by what I said that the idea of the destroyed US fleet with almost nothing left doesnt stand the test of what GDW put in the canon - there is more than enough left to still be probably a match for the French or a close second

Targan

04-05-2012, 11:43 PM

and its just not me who considers those two modules as being campaign killers - have talked to others who after they saw those modules basically either rebooted their campaigns back in Europe and just ignored Omega to stay in Europe, or who choose to go to the RDF and just circular filed their US modules - all comes down to what you want to play - and if I wanted to play Aftermath I would have played that game - and thats what Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped did
That's what you say they did but I don't see it that way. My last campaign certainly wasn't killed off by the contents of Howling Wilderness.

however I stand by what I said that the idea of the destroyed US fleet with almost nothing left doesnt stand the test of what GDW put in the canon - there is more than enough left to still be probably a match for the French or a close second
If that's the case why do you feel this burning need to beef it up? When I read your alternative timeline post describing TWO! USN nuclear powered carriers being part of the Omega fleet I laughed out loud.

Olefin

04-05-2012, 11:59 PM

Yes - one that is damaged and cannot operate aircraft anymore because it only has two screws that can work and other damage (its basically a big slow transport ship with a flight deck) and one that is operational but as will be seen has about 12 operational aircraft and only enough weapons to arm them for a very few missions

Sounds like the US will be ruling the seas again with those two carriers, huh?

ha ha ha

so is this forum one where people act rude if they dont like what others say? Didnt notice that in the new members rules and guidelines

Targan

04-06-2012, 12:19 AM

so is this forum one where people act rude if they dont like what others say? Didnt notice that in the new members rules and guidelines
So you think that was rude huh? Since your arrival on this forum I have, for the first time in more than a year, reassessed my desire to be a part of this forum. If the tone of this place continues in the direction you've been taking it I'm almost certainly going to take a break and go and find something more enjoyable and less depressing to do with my time.

Olefin

04-06-2012, 08:03 AM

if that is your desire then it is - and frankly a forum that doesnt have room for new ideas or concepts isnt much of a forum - especially considering how wide open Twilight 2000 is (keep in mind that most of the world was never touched by the canon modules as to details so there are literally endless possibilities)

and if my opinion about two modules (one that after reading most of the posts here is shared by a lot of current and former members including the DC working group) and that the canon as they were written led to the game turning a corner, that in my opinion, it shouldnt have makes you leave the forum, then it does

that is not my desire, nor was it my intention

But seeing the US Army turned into just another group of marauders, especially when their country needs them desperately and their are foreign troops on US soil just makes no sense (and that doesnt matter if they are following MilGov or CivGov) - nor does it make sense once you read the Return to Europe modules and see what appears to be a recovering Europe while the US is destroyed - oh and it really doesnt matter if the uber drought lasts only two years versus the implied ten in the modules

the 90 percent of the remaining population who would be dead wouldnt care much

and as I have said - it also makes most of the rest of the modules make no sense since Reset, the nuclear scientists, and the oil from that off shore rig in Texas all are dead plot ends when the rest of the country dies

however without those two modules all the rest of them work as a cohesive canon and campaign of survival and recovery and rebuilding

with them anyone in the US basically is playing Aftermath after the spring of 2001

and while Aftermath is a great game its not Twilight 2000

again my opinion

oh and keep in mind Targan - canon is what you make of it and how it rolls - in my campaign the Return to Warsaw module would never have been run - not because we didnt want to go back to Europe but because during the original module one of our guys shot the Baron and killed him - so that part of the canon would have never occured if we had gone back

same for White Eagle - we gave the Madonna to Stark in Krakow since we did Black Madonna first due to the roads we took escaping - so there goes the Priest and his forces gathered around the Madonna

thus by our very actions we played fast and loose with the canon just by playing the game

Medic

04-06-2012, 08:59 AM

Olefin and Targan, I suggest you both calm down - I'm not a mod here nor do I try to claim to be one, but really - I think there's room for the both of you here without the need to bicker.

Yes, Olefin has different ideas than those of the GDW and many participants here, but since others have been allowed to post their alternate timelines here, I don't see anything wrong with this thread.

Then again, Targan is well within his rights to express his opinion and it should be taken as such. Disagreeing with something or someone isn't exactly rude and I'd rather not see this turn in to a flamewar and arguing about who has the bigger virtual you-know-what.

If you ask me, The original idea was that the world as we know it ceases to exist. Nations no longer mean that much, especially with the U.S. divIded between the CivGov and MilGov. There for, I sincerily doubt, there'd be any carriers floating, since all it takes to sink one is a nuclear tipped torpedo and with the knowledge I have about the Soviet-built submarines, the Kilo-class for an example is something that can deliver just that being so quiet, it can nearly hump a whale and get away with it without the whale even noticing. But this is not saying, you can not run your own version of the story nor discuss about it in here, Olefin - on the contrary. You just have to accept the fact, not all of us are always going to agree with you on all your ideas. No-one agrees with all my ideas either, but it is their perogative.

Thank you and sorry for any hurt feelings or inconvenience.

Olefin

04-06-2012, 10:42 AM

Dont worry Medic - I have had a lot more garbage thrown at me before on other forums and I have a thick skin.

And notice I said the words my opinion a lot - i.e. its an opinion

Frankly if others have super thin skins or cant handle anyone who has ideas different than theirs or hey are set in concrete and their only answer to everything is "canon!!!" well then they shouldnt be on a public forum - especially one like Twilight 2000 that has a canon that is full of holes and problems that you can drive an M1 tank thru it.

Which is what I thought we were doing here - i.e. keeping the game alive and in part filling in the areas that are missing and/or revising what is wrong or mistaken or that needs revision (like for instance the Mexicans having Soviet equipment in City of Angels)

Looks like some people cant handle that - and thats too bad.

Fusilier

04-06-2012, 11:40 AM

I don't think it's your idea or opinions - it's your delivery.

Olefin

04-06-2012, 11:42 AM

Well then I will work on it - and probably shouldnt respond to posts late at night too - might have been just a wee bit tired when I read the part about laughing at my timeline - which I am betting a lot of people wouldnt like to have as a comment about their post, no matter what the delivery was.

Legbreaker

04-06-2012, 02:24 PM

It's worth remembering that Targan is a moderator and has taken on a lot of the duties of running this forum. If he speaks up about something, we should all shut up and listen.

Olefin

04-06-2012, 02:37 PM

First off dont tell people they need to shut up and listen. Thats rude and doesnt do anything but basically make people pissed and write off what you said.

And second as a moderator he should know that posts here deserve some kind of respect - have been a moderator on other forums and I have never told anyone, no matter what they posted, that I thought something they posted was foolish unless they were trying to pick a fight, which is exactly what you just tried to do with what you just posted.

Disagreement is one thing and thats fine.

Saying something is laughable is not.

And for the record what I was saying about those two modules was directed at the modules themselves and the people who created them as not being able to fit in with the rest of the canon they created, in my opinion.

Notice it says in my opinion.

And as Gary Gygax has said canon is only canon only as far as it is concerned with the particular DungeonMaster who is running the campaign.

I have heard of very good T2000 campaigns that never once set foot in Poland and were completely set in Iran and the Middle East. Or where Omega never happened and the US and its allies, with local offensives, drove the Russians out and linked back up with cut off parties in 2001 to 2002.

Hardly canon - but so what? So if in the timeline I propose the drought doesnt happen and Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped go out the window - then they do.

And if in yours the US falls apart as per those modules and its Mad Max/Aftermath on the highways - then it does.

But no one should be told to shut up and listen or have someone say what they said is laughable - that just makes them say screw this and find something better to do - and there goes another T2000 player or campaign or potential module creator.

kiltedguard

04-24-2012, 08:43 PM

Wow...tough series of posts to follow, but I'll throw my two cents in there. My father was posted to the Sara(toga) in '78 as squadron complement. He worked on avionics. Anyway...at THAT point the Sara was quite long in the tooth. The gradual corrosion of the salt water on her hull had thinned it out to the point where...on several occasions...if the harbor wasn't especially deep and if the fuel stores (Since she was still a bunker oil fired ship), were still fairly full, she would take on water and settle on the silt. He happened twice in Jacksonville/Pensacola, and once in Naples, Italy.

My point is...though...I can find no reference in the TW2k references to the Saratoga, I'd let you all know that IRL he duty station was as part of the Med. Battle Group and she was he regular station. She likely would have either tangled with enemy forces in the Med. or been diverted to "The GAP" to engage Soviet North Fleet forces. With her hull in the condition that it was, a single solid missile impact would have broke her keel. Another carrier would have had to recover what was left of her airborne fighters and that would be that for the Sara.

James1978

04-24-2012, 11:07 PM

The Saratoga went into the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard in 1980 for a SLEP overhaul that lasted 28 months. Material-wise, she wasn't the same ship after the SLEP that she was in 1978.

raketenjagdpanzer

04-25-2012, 12:18 AM

I'm going to post one more fixup of Saratogas disposition because I just read it, and it reads dumb... so here we go:

My thoughts on the Saratoga being where it is were based on the idea that she'd been working the southwest Atlantic, near Florida, and she and her battle-group had been ordered to stop convoys of Division Cuba from reaching the coast of Texas. She got into a shooutout with Soviet and Cuban surface elements and while she broke the back of Soviet Naval operations in the region and virtually destroyed the last of the "official" Cuban navy, she absorbed an anti-ship missile hit and was severely damaged. Realizing a ship that could maybe someday be put back in action was preferable to a ship that was a natural reef her commander ran her aground in the shallows off of Fort Jefferson, approximately 80 miles west of Key West. As most of her planes were already airborne as part of strike packages operating against the remains of the Soviet/Cuban ships, performing SAR and CAP duties, these remaining aircraft were diverted to land bases - specifically NAS Key West and Homestead AFB.

While these planes and helos were initially a boon to MILGOV in South Florida, most were attritted due to mechanical failures (due to fewer and fewer critical spares), operational loss over Cuba, and finally a simple lack of fuel. The tiny MILGOV enclave in Key West maintains a lone SH-60 and a pair of F/A18Ds in flyable condition with a reserve of fuel for contingency situations.

The Saratoga's remaining crew did an able job of damage control, and there is a contingent of Marines and a skeleton crew of sailors on-board to maintain the ship. However, again, multiple hurricanes and general neglect have taken a hard toll on the once-proud carrier.

While the ship is marginally operational and, against most threats very well defended, it is a tempting target for New America and raiders in general. How long it will sit unmolested is anyone's guess.

kiltedguard

04-25-2012, 05:54 AM

The Saratoga went into the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard in 1980 for a SLEP overhaul that lasted 28 months. Material-wise, she wasn't the same ship after the SLEP that she was in 1978.

The SLEP program was a ships systems and equipment overhaul and upgrade. Though some work MAY have been done on the hull. The ship was launched in 55, making her already 23 years old in '78. Even with the SLEP program, which was botched at the navy yard in Philly and required additional work, that would have made her 40 years old by '95 and near the end of even the SLEP program's project life span. No overhaul program can compensate for the effects of salt water on the ship's structure over the course of 4 decades.

She was decommissioned in 1994, which would have made her a candidate for recommissioning and deployment in a reasonable amount of time, but her lifespan on the battlefield would have been short.

Legbreaker

04-25-2012, 06:16 AM

Though some work MAY have been done on the hull. The ship was launched in 55, making her already 23 years old in '78. Even with the SLEP program, which was botched at the navy yard in Philly and required additional work, that would have made her 40 years old by '95 and near the end of even the SLEP program's project life span. No overhaul program can compensate for the effects of salt water on the ship's structure over the course of 4 decades.

Exactly right. Replacing the hull is also a MASSIVE undertaking and you may as well just build a new ship.

I think the most qualified person to speak on this subject though would be Bluedwarf - an engineer and marine architect.

kiltedguard

04-25-2012, 01:34 PM

Exactly right. Replacing the hull is also a MASSIVE undertaking and you may as well just build a new ship.

I think the most qualified person to speak on this subject though would be Bluedwarf - an engineer and marine architect.

You mean I can haz cheezburger? :)

Webstral

04-25-2012, 02:42 PM

I don't think it's your idea or opinions - it's your delivery.

Delivery really does matter. I’d go so far as to say that delivery is 90% of the message. If a member of the forum wishes to impress with the thickness of his skin, I strongly advise going over to NPR where that sort of thing has a value. Once in a while, we’re all going to see our gentlemanly demeanor slip. I’m no exception. Nonetheless, this isn’t where we show off thickness of skin. We discuss ideas.

Olefin

04-25-2012, 02:45 PM

Delivery and thickness of skin has already been changed.

Webstral

04-25-2012, 02:56 PM

I agree with everyone who has claimed that GDW oversimplified the naval picture in Twilight: 2000. It's something we have to live with. Personally, I think attempts to flesh out the naval picture are commendable.

If you are a canon purist, that’s fine. Say so and let everyone else talk. Sit at the next table and listen, if you so choose. Constant reminders that you’re a canon purist serve no good purpose except to irritate the people trying to have a constructive conversation. Say it once and let it go.

As for folks looking to improve on the naval picture, be ready to have your rationale for a given aspect called into question. That’s what we do here. If your answer is “That’s how I like it”, that’s fine. But if you are going to give a rationale, be prepared to have it called into question. Be an adult about both the calling into question and having your rationale called into question, and we’ll all get along fine. Allow each other the occasional lapse, and we’ll all get along spectacularly.

Webstral

04-25-2012, 03:01 PM

Delivery and thickness of skin has already been changed.

I appreciate your efforts. You're not the only intended recipient of my message. Some of the members who have been here longer than you need a reminder.

Rainbow Six

04-25-2012, 03:22 PM

A snippet I just came across skimming through the Med Cruise Module...(page 16)

Gibraltar was the base from which NATO launched the convoy in support of Turkey in June 1997, and was the base from which the carriers operated when retaliatory air strikes were launched against Greece after that convoy was attacked of Izmir

Same page confirms that most Naval vessels survived the nuclear strike on Gib

Most of the Naval vessels had enough warning of the strike to get out of harm's way

The air strikes on Greece took place on 29 June 1997 and the module references carriers (plural), so that suggests there were at least two Carriers (not neccessarily US) active in the Med several weeks after the battles of the Kola Pensinsula in early June 1997. Given Kiltedguard's (are you a Scotsman by the way? :D) statement about the Saratoga's duty station it's possible Saratoga was one of those two.

raketenjagdpanzer

04-25-2012, 03:54 PM

Olefin

04-25-2012, 04:09 PM

And i dont think that they were referring to a Harrier air strike or helo air strike when they say carriers.

By the way thats one thing I have been saying about the so called last fleet in the world being shattered somehow meaning that the USN is finished

The Japanese fleet was shattered at Leyte Gulf - and they still had a bunch of destroyers, cruisers, battleships and yes even carriers in commission after that

Shattered doesnt mean destroyed or almost destroyed - it means that their effectiveness as a fleet has been seriously compromised to where another fleet battle isnt possible - but it leaves more than enough to still be dangerous

So two carriers still very much afloat post Kola disaster in the Med that can launch effective air strikes - not only is it canon (per Med Cruise) and defensible as canon (for the canon defenders) its also very probable based on how many carriers the US had in commission at the time of the Twilight War even if the last main fleet got shattered at Kola as a fleet

And saying we need to use canon for the navy has always been iffy

Look at Last Submarine - according to it only 4 US subs are left by the Kola disaster in June of 1997 - that is definitely not possible no matter what the timeline says and the canon says - if there is one thing GDW screwed up big time its that

I know they needed it for how the Last Submarine Trilogy was written for dramatic effect that this is all there is left of the USN nuke fleet - but there is no scenario where the USN, with all the subs that were in commission or able to be recommissioned back then would lose every nuke sub they had, including all the Ohios as well by mid 1997 - that means all the Ohios are gone BEFORE the war goes nuclear

and saying Soviet nuclear subs were hard to locate - I have a brother in law who was in attack boats for years - when I told him that that he started laughing

what he told me was that to have that many subs lost the Russians would have needed a fleet three to four times as big as what they had - and that to sink all the Ohios they would have needed a new tech that frankly to this day doesnt exist

and having only four NATO subs left operationally by the start of 1997 means that between Turkey, Great Britain, Germany and Norway - who had literally dozens of subs - all they have left after a war that is barely a few months old is four subs

and I know Leg that its a game - but it has to be a believeable one -

now having those kinds of losses happen by mid to late 2000 from multiple losses in nuked ports, breakdowns, etc.. where the boats are sitting in harbors or ports and cant sortie because of that - thats believeable

having the Corpus Christi be the only sub that is operational and that MilGov can get to in time because the others are out of fuel, have breakdowns, took hull damage and cant submerge, have damage to their weapons or sonar systems, are in long term refits in say San Francisco or in Australia and wont be available for months or they are in Korea and cant get home in time

now that is not only believeable but after a four year war - very very possible

so what did my GM do - he ignored canon and when we did the Med Cruise he had us taking spare parts to get a USN nuke sub stuck in Israel operational so she could get home again - and when we did Boomer we did the same - i.e. we didnt stop at some godforsaken beach we pulled into a UK sub base to get repaired and dropped off more parts for another USN sub stuck there as well (we were going there anyway and getting damaged by the French ship just made it more necessary)

heck we didnt even have to find Corpus Christi when we did Last Submarine -the whole module as we played it was to get those torpedoes (and spare parts) at Weymouth so she could sail (she was already in MilGov hands per our GM)

and with all those changes - we had a lot of fun on those three modules and still kept 90 percent or more of it canon as to how they were run

Rainbow Six

04-25-2012, 04:10 PM

To be honest, I just picked the Saratoga 'cause I like the name and her history, I live in Florida hence her being run aground here, and the idea of something as big and looming as an aircraft carrier as an adventure locale is too neat to pass up. I could have just as easily made it a super-freighter full of vital war materiel, a different carrier, a Soviet carrier, a different location, etc. etc.

It'd probably be "cooler" if it was a CV-N, then there'd be power and a real rationale for people still living there, but that was already dealt with in Satellite Down, which was IMO not a great module. The premise is neat - multiple factions need that satellite data, and it's under the gun of a crazy guy with lots of weapons - but the execution leaves something to be desired.

Anyhow that's my two brass shells.

Mate, I think it's a good idea...and I actually think it's cooler using something that's got a bit of history attached.

My only very minor nit pick would be that I think (although I could be mistaken) that Cuba was officially neutral, so maybe keep the Cubans out of the naval battle that causes her to be run aground?

On the subject of Cuba, according to the BYB Guantanamo Bay was evacuated by the US at some point in 1999...maybe try and work that in?

raketenjagdpanzer

04-25-2012, 04:29 PM

Mate, I think it's a good idea...and I actually think it's cooler using something that's got a bit of history attached.

My only very minor nit pick would be that I think (although I could be mistaken) that Cuba was officially neutral, so maybe keep the Cubans out of the naval battle that causes her to be run aground?

On the subject of Cuba, according to the BYB Guantanamo Bay was evacuated by the US at some point in 1999...maybe try and work that in?

That works; by '99 or so she's one of the last surviving big carriers in the world and she's providing CAP for the withdraw from Gitmo. As they're coming around the west end of Cuba she gets jumped by a Soviet TF and has a running battle with them. The CVBG soaks a lot of missiles intended for her, most of the boats get away, and her air wing prosecutes the shit out of the Soviets (who have no air cover to speak of), with Saratoga crippled by the aforementioned ASM strikes at the last, but her birds putting paid to the Soviet boats. She loses most of her a/c and many pilots, orders her birds to Key West and finally limps to the shallows off of Fort Jefferson*, offloads her wounded to picket boats and angel flights who then take 'em to NAS Key West or Homestead, and a rotating guard detail keeps her out of the hands of marauders/pirates or New America.

That last part kind of sticks with me a little bit though...It isn't like New America has a floating dry-dock they could put a CV into for the eight to ten years of repairs and rebuilding it'd take, etc. etc., and at best the ship is a wreck.

Maybe there are no guards on her and she was stripped of all weapons, supplies, etc. and it's just her hulk out there now.

Or alternately go back to my original thesis: it isn't Saratoga, but a nuclear carrier and is stranded off of Key West and providing the city with power, facilities, etc...

I dunno, it's more for community use.

Rainbow Six

04-25-2012, 04:40 PM

That last part kind of sticks with me a little bit though...It isn't like New America has a floating dry-dock they could put a CV into for the eight to ten years of repairs and rebuilding it'd take, etc. etc., and at best the ship is a wreck.

NA might not be able to get the ship into a condition where they could make use of it, but what about all of the equipment / weapons / etc on board? If they snagged themselves a single A6 or F18, some fuel, and some dumb bombs that probably still gives them way more firepower than anyone else in the area.

Granted, they don't need a carrier for that - they could take control of a Naval Air Station instead, but it's just a thought.

And who gets the job of taking out said aircraft - the PC's...

Tegyrius

04-25-2012, 04:58 PM

Or alternately go back to my original thesis: it isn't Saratoga, but a nuclear carrier and is stranded off of Key West and providing the city with power, facilities, etc...

If you're looking at Key West, one of those "facilities" would need to be the ship's desalination plant. I looked at the area for a 2013 module that never happened, and IIRC, there are no natural sources of fresh water in the Keys.

- C.

raketenjagdpanzer

04-25-2012, 05:50 PM

NA might not be able to get the ship into a condition where they could make use of it, but what about all of the equipment / weapons / etc on board? Let's face it, if they snagged themselves a single A6 or F18, some fuel, and some dumb bombs that probably still gives them way more firepower than anyone else in the area.

probably vastly more likely they'd help themselves to the bombs and whatnot as a basis for explosives, plus whatever wasn't gathered up from the armory in terms of small weapons.

Assuming they absorbed some technicians from various air-forces, how feasible is it that they could wire up A2A missiles for surface-to-surface work??

raketenjagdpanzer

04-25-2012, 05:52 PM

If you're looking at Key West, one of those "facilities" would need to be the ship's desalination plant. I looked at the area for a 2013 module that never happened, and IIRC, there are no natural sources of fresh water in the Keys.

- C.

Actually, there's one: it's a Blue Hole in the middle of Big Torch Key. It is naturally filtered fresh water. I can picture that as being VERY hotly contested...

Adm.Lee

04-25-2012, 09:53 PM

Aha! I was wondering if Key West NAS was viable as a MilGov outpost. I wanted something to serve as an initial base for a PC group to go out and survey the Gulf Coast. If there's nothing on the Florida peninsula, that would be a good a place as any.

OTOH, I like using a wrecked carrier as a base. She could still serve as a barracks. If at least one generator could be fueled, then there could be power for lights, radios, desalinization. What European veteran wouldn't volunteer for a billet that promised showers and clean sheets whenever they finished a mission?!

There's over 5 thousand bunks there, plus tools and plenty of space (hangar & flight decks) for briefings, rehearsals, exercise, whatever. She could be the static mooring base for a cloud of smaller boats and even some light freighters.

EDIT: I just got off my Google-butt and looked up Fort Jefferson-- holy carp, that's a long way from land! 'Twould be really secure from those New America fellers, at least as long as they could get food & fuel from somewhere on the mainland. I'm seeing a flotilla of (ex-civilian) sailboats run by the USN and perhaps USCG, running about the Gulf, picking up and delivering supplies, messages and people. The faux-Constitution would be a real prize for that, given her relatively big size.

raketenjagdpanzer

04-26-2012, 11:43 AM

Adm.Lee

04-26-2012, 10:01 PM

Re: fuel problem: yes, but I'm not talking about putting all the boilers on line to drive the ship, maybe just one (or two, running one at a time?) of them, converted to alcohol, like everything else out there. Just enough to run some of the generators and distillers and the like. If we believe in the power of methanol, there's a whole lot of plants to get chopped up over on the Florida mainland!

EDIT: now that I'm positing a big ship as an instant barracks, did Mobile and the BB Alabama get hit? That's a plenty stable place to live, too.

Targan

04-27-2012, 03:33 AM

I wonder whether kelp beds and sea grass meadows could be a viable source of biomass for the production of alcohol fuels in coastal areas? Or to kick it even more old school, could it be harvested and dried or even scavenged pre-dried from the shoreline and used as-is in wood and coal-fired boilers?

Two-thirds of our planet is covered with water and in shallow coastal seas there are huge amounts of aquatic vegetation. In some parts of the world there are free-floating "islands" of kelp. The reason that the mention of Florida triggered this line of thinking for me is that I know that manatees are found around Florida's coast and manatees are "sea cows". Where you find manatees you will surely find sea grass meadows.

Adm.Lee

04-28-2012, 09:21 AM

Well, as far as drying the kelp, the Sara's going to have a big ol' flight deck not doing anything else... It's either that or a big garden!

raketenjagdpanzer

04-28-2012, 09:33 AM