USS Saratoga Fate

[schnickelfritz]

Can someone point me where I could get a rundown on the fate of the USS Saratoga? Is there something that might show the fates of the various capital ships (aircraft carriers, Kirov and Iowa class, Des Moins class CA)?

Thanks!
Dave

[Legbreaker]

Actual fate or game world fate?

[RN7]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

Can someone point me where I could get a rundown on the fate of the USS Saratoga? Is there something that might show the fates of the various capital ships (aircraft carriers, Kirov and Iowa class, Des Moins class CA)?

Thanks!
Dave

http://www.topbb.com/forum/viewtopic...m=twilight2000

[Rainbow Six]

Hi Dave,

With a few notable exceptions (the USS Corpus Christi obviously, the cruiser in Satellite Down - USS Virginia iirc?), published material is fairly sparse on details of specific ships, although there are a few fairly sweeping generalisations (I don't have the exact quote but possibly the most well known one is the reference to the "last major fleet" being destroyed sometime in 1997).

Beyond that there's a few snippets here and there - the USS John Hancock is the flagship of the Omega fleet, the RDF sourcebook lists what's in the Gulf (at least for the US, can't recall for the others), the USS Tarawa is mentioned in the V2 aviation guide as still being afloat in 2000 (in the Baltic I think?). The Last Sub trilogy has a few more references (istr a largish US warship is quoted as going down off Cyprus), and there are probably a few others here and there, but it is hunting needles in haystacks...

Cheers

Dave

[Legbreaker]

Besides those RS has mentioned, and those listed in the RDF Sourcebook as being in the middle east, there are no other ships anywhere in canon.
But the world's a big place. There might be one or two more in Virgina's conditon being used in a similar manner. It's extremely unlikely any would be undamaged though, or even have more than a skeleton crew and minimal ammunition.

[schnickelfritz]

In at least one thread, the USS Saratoga was stated as having been beached somewhere on the Flodida coast. Can anyone provide details on how she ended up in that state?
Thanks!
Dave

[Legbreaker]

It's likely that is simply somebodies individual opinion - it's certainly not backed up by any of the canon material.
Chances are, if that is where you would like to place the vessel in your T2K world, it was heavily damaged by submarine or sea mines while close to the shore. Rather than have it sink to the bottom of the ocean, the captain may have chosen to beach and hope something could be salvaged.
It's also possible it (and other ships in the area) were subject to nuclear attack.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

In at least one thread, the USS Saratoga was stated as having been beached somewhere on the Flodida coast. Can anyone provide details on how she ended up in that state?

Dave,

Yes, that was RaketenJagdpanzer's personal Florida campaign:

The strikes happen pretty much as in the 1.0 background. Kennedy gets spared slightly by its bursts hitting out to sea and going off underwater due to malfunction. Patrick AFB is unharmed and becomes the keys to recovery in the area.

The I-4 corridor is pretty hosed, but Tampa/CENTCOM fallout went more southeast than northwest. Orlando and locations north and northwest did "OK", with MCO and SFB being key points for relief (what little has come).

As explained in 1.0-relevant sourcebooks, though, the Sunshine State has given rise to a lot of separatist elements which will be a problem for years to come. As I pointed out, the USS Saratoga is grounded of Port Richie, in a "maybe-someday" recoverable state. The chief concern is whether or not her reactor is safe and stable.

FL ANG units out of Jacksonville and USMC Reserve, Army Reserve and NTSC Orlando trainees are the bulk of the military presence in Florida, totaling around 2800 personnel. The Transportatiton and Paymaster reservists based out of Orlando provide the bulk of the mobility to units in Central Florida with their small number of HEMTTs, and the link between Central Florida and other regions is tenuous at best. Some transport aircraft remain, bolstered by rotary-wing and prop a/c from the USS Saratoga, and 3 functional, stored F15Ds also remain (but essentially grounded since a mere few hours' flying time worth of JP-8 remain).

SFB (Sanford International Airport) and to a lesser degree MCO (Orlando International Airport) have taken the bulk of relief flights; the surrounding environs near both airports are heavily patrolled by local militia (consisting of a great number of retired middle-aged veterans of Vietnam and Korea) aligned with both MilGov and CivGov. Unlike other areas of the country these two groups conflicts rarely involve more than catcalls, showing the international bird of peace to one another, and so on.

St. Augustine's civil government relocated to the near-indestructible fortress located in the old town. Nothing short of a demolition nuclear charge could bring the complex down and it is now the nerve center for recovery and civil government on Florida's northeast coast.

The chief damage done to Florida has been the repeated "surprise" hurricanes, although the judicious use of E2C Hawkeyes from the beached Saratoga, combined with the meteorological skills of NASA and Patrick AFB personnel have gone a long, long way to mitigating the damage by warning the remaining population centers as best they can...

The post doesn't reference how it got there, you can PM RakJgpz on how it gets there in his opinion.

Tony

[Olefin]

Troubled Waters - John Hancock and three Forest Sherman DD

Frank Frey's Kenya module of which he has posted details here saying one CG and several destroyers and frigates

Tarawa as already mentioned

The RDF fleet including a Des Moines, an assault carrier and a missile

Assumptions from canon

1) At least some escorts for the 6000 men who transited the Med to get to the RDF in Dec of 2000- the Med is a very dangerous place as per Med Cruise - and there is no way else they got to Saudi from Europe on a collection of old ships in six weeks any other way than thru the Med (RDF module)

2) the guys in Korea didnt get there by swimming (general timeline, US Army Vehicle Guide)

3) Alaska - there were US troops in the Aleutians and who raided into Russia over the Bering Strait - again they didnt swim so that means a USN presence of some sort (same as 2)

4) Yugoslavia - most likely at least a minor USN presence there to support ops (same as 2)

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

4) Yugoslavia - most likely at least a minor USN presence there to support ops (same as 2)

Well, not strictly USN. USN assets under CivGov command maybe, and maybe they refer to themselves as USN but the bulk of the USN would view them as renegades. Remember, as far as US forces go the Yugoslavia AO is a CivGov show.

[Olefin]

Actually thats an interesting question as the USN doesnt take mutiny lightly. One thing that they might be would be USN ships that were in mothballs that were being put back into operation and then crewed by men loyal to Civ Gov - i.e. older DD's and possible even the Salem's sister cruiser or cruisers.

As such they may never have officially rejoined the official USN. Either that or MilGov is giving them naval support for the operation on the basis that even though those troops arent answering to them they would rather have them in Europe and not in the US where they could be used against them.

[Targan]

Olefin, thank you for instantly brightening my mood. That may be the first post of yours with which I fully agree on every point

[Olefin]

Always glad to be of service!

[Olefin]

Oh and since not everyone may be familiar with what Frank Frey posted on Kenya using his notes plus the notes of several people who communicated with him this is what the canon would have been for his module if he had finished it and published it - and again since he wrote many of the modules I think we can agree on this being "canon" since it was to be a GDW T2000 module

TF 212
• CG 50 USS Valley Forge, one SH-2F Seasprite, (flagship)
• DDG 996 USS Chandler, one SH-2F Seasprite
• DDG 46 USS Preble
• FF 1058 USS Meyerkord, one SH-2F Seasprite
• DD 950 USS Richard S. Edwards

TF 212.1 Support Group
• T-A0 146 Kawishiwi
• AE 22 Mauna Kea
TF 212.2 Patrol Group
• PC 11 Whirlwind
• PC 12 Thunderbolt
• MCM 7 Patriot
• WMEC 725 USCGC Jarvis
• USCGC WPB 1302 Manitou

Edwards is a Forrest Sherman class that in real life was expended in 1997 as a target - here she would have been part of the other Forrest Shermans that were put back in service as mentioned in Troubled Waters (Challenge Magazine article)

While the discussion changed the names of some of the ships for better candidates the composition as to numbers in general stayed the same.

And these ships would be operational ones, not stranded or out of fuel.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

EDIT: Fixed up the post to reflect that Saratoga is not in fact a CV-N. Can't believe I made that mistake. Anyway, fixes are bolded.

It's always nice to see one's name mentioned.

My thoughts on the Saratoga being where it is were based on the idea that she'd been working the southwest Atlantic, near Florida, and had been ordered to stop convoys of Division Cuba from reaching the coast of Texas. She got into a shooutout with Soviet and Cuban surface elements and while she broke the back of Soviet Naval operations in the region and virtually destroyed the last of the "official" Cuban navy, she absorbed at least a few cruise-missile hits and near misses and was badly crippled. Realizing a ship that could maybe someday be put back in action was preferable to a ship that was a natural reef her commander beached her in the shallows off of Port Ritchie, launching all remaining a/c as she went.

For my campaign purposes, the remaining crew did an able job of damage control, and there is a contingent of Marines and a skeleton crew of sailors on-board to maintain the ship. As the ships condensers are a source of fresh water and her sickbay facilities are (despite being mostly out of supplies) essentially a pre-war quality hospital, plus her considerable machine shop facilities the sparse civilian population near her beached location welcome her presence and trade food with the crew for use of her facilities. The locals also promulgate the story that the Saratoga is a ghost ship, abandoned due to unexploded ammunition and danger of internal collapse. The crew on board maintain this illusion by leaving the outer deck and hull in seemingly poor shape, however the below-deck spaces are maintained to the best possible standards.

For hostiles who refuse to turn back, the Marines on board have full control of the CIWS systems, .50 cal. machine guns, light arms and ad-hoc rocket launchers. How long they could hold out against a dedicated assault is anyone's guess though: the ship is too tempting a target for salvage for New America to just leave alone for too long.

[Olefin]

Have only been a forum member for a couple of weeks but have been avidly reading the old posts and there is something I feel that needs to be said about the fate of the USN carrier fleet.

A lot of people in the past have gotten their panties in a ringer about any discussions where its offered that USN nuke carriers may be surviving in the late 2000 to early 2001 time period. Most have the "well its not in canon" or "then the US would rule the waves and that would ruin the game for me" kind of flavor or bring out the tired "last fleet is shattered" argument.

However think about what it means for a carrier to be surviving versus being fully operational.

A nuclear carrier could be seaworthy and useable - but not be even close to operational.

You could have inoperable catapults, comm gear destroyed or non-functional, enough props or shafts damaged that she cant operate aircraft anymore, elevators non-functional, damage to the flight deck or hangars that is beyond their ability to repair, - the list goes on and on - but still be seaworthy and able to do something - but definitely not operational as a carier with an air wing

For that matter she doesnt even have to be damaged. Consider this list:

she doesnt have an aviation gas anymore and is in an area where they are out of it - say Europe or Korea - so while the ship works great she cant do anything with her aircraft.

She has av-gas but she is out of weapons and cant get more where she is-

she is at a dock, ready to go, but her reactor is out of fuel

Because of battle losses and spare part issues she doesnt have any operational aircraft left

Now does that mean they are useless - definitely not - but not as carriers anymore. A nuclear fueled ship like that would make a terrific troop or cargo transport (think of how much stuff you can put in her hangar decks) and if just carrying men she could bring several thousand men at once

A ship like that is hardly ruling the waves - especially considering most of them only have some light AA guns and would have to be retrofitted with better guns to defend themselves or they would be sunk by the first ship that has a gun bigger than 76mm they run into - but is still useful and still around for the day when the US gets avgas or can make the repairs

So does Belleau Wood being the last active carrier in the world mean that they are all sunk or damaged badly - not at all -

But if the Stennis is hauling passengers because its catapults are out of order and they cant get the parts then she is still around, still in commission - but definitely not operational as a carrier anymore

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

My thoughts on the Saratoga being where it is were based on the idea that she'd been working the southwest Atlantic, near Florida, ...

For my campaign purposes, the remaining crew did an able job of damage control, and there is a contingent of Marines and a skeleton crew of sailors on-board to maintain the reactor.

If you want the reactor to be working, best change the name of the ship: CV-60 is an oil-burner.
USS Enterprise, Nimitz, Eisenhower, Vinson, T.Roosevelt, Washington, Stennis were the CVNs of 1995. R. Reagan wasn't even laid down until 1998.

Interesting: IRL USS Harry S Truman was launched 7 Sep 96, commissioned 25 July 98. In a T2k world, I surely think the Navy was able to speed her commissioning and deployment? She's under construction at Newport News, an obvious target for a Soviet nuke. Even if not finished, the reactor would be a great thing to have for rebuilding around Norfolk!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

If you want the reactor to be working, best change the name of the ship: CV-60 is an oil-burner.
USS Enterprise, Nimitz, Eisenhower, Vinson, T.Roosevelt, Washington, Stennis were the CVNs of 1995. R. Reagan wasn't even laid down until 1998.

DOH. D TO THE OH. I'll...fix that...

Interesting: IRL USS Harry S Truman was launched 7 Sep 96, commissioned 25 July 98. In a T2k world, I surely think the Navy was able to speed her commissioning and deployment? She's under construction at Newport News, an obvious target for a Soviet nuke. Even if not finished, the reactor would be a great thing to have for rebuilding around Norfolk!

It now makes Norfolk a lot more sensible as the final destination of TF34: assuming you're going with a canon "Going Home", the first place the soldiers see is a town with electricity (well, some, at least in the port facilities) and light industry and maybe (just maybe) they think "Hey, things are getting better" instead of "Hey, we're being thrown off the ship into a postapocalyptic wasteland, let's mutiny right now and go Mad Max on Norfolk."

[Legbreaker]

A mobile, nuclear powered carrier, even without planes isn't possible.
With the ability to carry thousands of troops and tens of thousands of tonnes of cargo, it's a massive game changer and Omega would have been a completely different kettle of fish. The US wouldn't need the German fuel to get their troops home - just half a dozen Atlantic crossings and a couple of months would have done the job. The ship could transport a full Brigade or more all around the US coastline, reinforcing areas under pressure from the Mexicans. Russians and NA. The Korean units could be brought home, fuel could be transported from the middle east and elsewhere and essentially, the US would rule the waves.

[Olefin]

No Legbreaker its not a game changer - its a ship used as a transport but one they wont risk too much because basically it needs escorts or its dead meat - along with everyone on it

And Omega was not a gradual evac for a darn good reason - no one wanted to take their turn and believe that MilGov would be back - once those ships showed everyone wanted on

So could they have used a carrier like that for an operation like that or to get the 6000 men to the Middle East - yes for sure

plus remember even if you get avgas and planes - at best you have one or two nuke carriers left in commission - and no one is ruling the waves of an entire planet with one or two nuke carriers with very limited planes and avgas and weapons

even as cargo ships - yes they can keep trade going - but they are still essentially one or two ships - and its a long long way from the East Coast to Kenya or the Middle East or Korea without the two canals in operation

so you get a few trips per year at most out of them - and depending on what ship it is they may not have that much fuel left on board for their reactors

So does it change Omega or the RDF reinforcement - no it doesnt - and in the end it may explain why there was plenty of room or where the US got the fuel to go all the way to the Middle East with those 6000 men - who for all we know came from Norfolk after Omega arrived (nothing in the RDF says they came straight to the RDF from Europe -i.e. they could have come via Norfolk)

the canon still works and in fact it works better and closes several holes - especially if the carrier isnt part of TF 34, instead its a different TF going to the RDF with the 6000 men

[Olefin]

On and Leg - with the forces that are canon the US is still most likely going to rule the waves - especially if the Texas module results in the players ending up controlling that oil rig and the US getting a ton of av gas - with that in hand you can kiss Mexican and Soviet control of a lot of Texas goodbye - and then the US will have plenty of oil for its fleet

three cruisers, a dozen destroyers and frigates and a carrier and an SSN isnt bad to start with - and I doubt anyone with the possible exception of France could match that anytime soon

and the timing for that is after the events of Troubled Waters (i.e. it will take a few months to get enough oil pumped to really have avgas to attack) - and dont quote Howling Wildnerness or Kidnapped - frankly those modules should be relegated to the status of Bobby is taking a shower on Dallas for a year fantasies of a New American leader and replaced with better modules or scenarios

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

and the timing for that is after the events of Troubled Waters (i.e. it will take a few months to get enough oil pumped to really have avgas to attack) - and dont quote Howling Wilderness or Kidnapped - frankly those modules should be relegated to the status of Bobby is taking a shower on Dallas for a year fantasies of a New American leader and replaced with better modules or scenarios

Look, if you want to throw Howling Wilderness and Kidnapped out the window for any campaigns you're running that's fine for you but you're talking like that's a given for any right-thinking T2Ker and I think that's a bit unreasonable. I'd be more likely to ignore the Eastern European Sourcebook or City of Angels (and I won't be ignoring them either). You clearly have lots of experience in RPG forum discussions and you seem to be a good debater but its not very effective to mix and match the way you have in the post I've quoted above. First you're arguing pretty effectively for modifying canon info then in the next sentence you're trying to reinforce your position by saying that two entire modules shouldn't even be factored into the discussion (and saying it in a tone that suggests it should be obvious to everyone).

"... replaced with better modules or scenarios"? Maybe GDW could've done a better job with Howling Wilderness and Kidnapped and a bunch of other modules and sourcebooks but they didn't. Those are what we have. If you're going to argue your points on those angles perhaps you should re-write Howling Wilderness, offer it for perusal, garner some support for it in the T2K community and then maybe you can act like it's a fait accompli.

[Olefin]

Actually those two modules, as I have stated, is what killed the campaign we were playing in - as I have said before our GM saw Kidnapped as nothing but a party killer and Howling Wildnerness as a "lets kill the US off and turn the game into Mad Max" - and as a result the people playing the game lost interest in continuing on in that kind of environment - and you can see that they wrote themselves into a dead end at GDW as well - one reason I think they returned to Europe was that those two modules killed off the American campaign

so lets go back to Europe where at least civilization has a chance to survive

oh and the Eastern European sourcebook isnt in the original version of the game so we didnt even use it - and City of Angels wasnt bad if you gave the Mexicans actual equipment they would use instead of Sov equipment - basically our GM was going to throw out what they had and substitute equipment from the Texas module - which was a lot of fun and made sense

and its just not me who considers those two modules as being campaign killers - have talked to others who after they saw those modules basically either rebooted their campaigns back in Europe and just ignored Omega to stay in Europe, or who choose to go to the RDF and just circular filed their US modules - all comes down to what you want to play - and if I wanted to play Aftermath I would have played that game - and thats what Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped did

as for factoring in the discussion - the Texas module, if the players win, gives the US the oil they need to finally beat the Mexicans - but that doesnt matter since the whole US basically collapses and dies -

you come home and fight in Texas, beat the New Americans in the Ozarks, help restore order in NY, get the last nuke sub back - and all of it is for nothing once GDW decided to kill off the US - so yes those who loved the game have the right to complain when the creators decide to chuck it all down the can and turn it into Mad Max and have basically the whole US Army fall apart and disappear. Now that doesnt mean everyone has to do that - but reading the board (and I have read most of the posts since I found it) the vast majority agree with that opinion of those two modules

its the same opinion that Chico and the DC Working Group came to in their very entertaining posts - but again its an opinion

however I stand by what I said that the idea of the destroyed US fleet with almost nothing left doesnt stand the test of what GDW put in the canon - there is more than enough left to still be probably a match for the French or a close second

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

and its just not me who considers those two modules as being campaign killers - have talked to others who after they saw those modules basically either rebooted their campaigns back in Europe and just ignored Omega to stay in Europe, or who choose to go to the RDF and just circular filed their US modules - all comes down to what you want to play - and if I wanted to play Aftermath I would have played that game - and thats what Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped did

That's what you say they did but I don't see it that way. My last campaign certainly wasn't killed off by the contents of Howling Wilderness.

Originally Posted by Olefin

however I stand by what I said that the idea of the destroyed US fleet with almost nothing left doesnt stand the test of what GDW put in the canon - there is more than enough left to still be probably a match for the French or a close second

If that's the case why do you feel this burning need to beef it up? When I read your alternative timeline post describing TWO! USN nuclear powered carriers being part of the Omega fleet I laughed out loud.

[Olefin]

Yes - one that is damaged and cannot operate aircraft anymore because it only has two screws that can work and other damage (its basically a big slow transport ship with a flight deck) and one that is operational but as will be seen has about 12 operational aircraft and only enough weapons to arm them for a very few missions

Sounds like the US will be ruling the seas again with those two carriers, huh?

ha ha ha

so is this forum one where people act rude if they dont like what others say? Didnt notice that in the new members rules and guidelines

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

so is this forum one where people act rude if they dont like what others say? Didnt notice that in the new members rules and guidelines

So you think that was rude huh? Since your arrival on this forum I have, for the first time in more than a year, reassessed my desire to be a part of this forum. If the tone of this place continues in the direction you've been taking it I'm almost certainly going to take a break and go and find something more enjoyable and less depressing to do with my time.

[Olefin]

if that is your desire then it is - and frankly a forum that doesnt have room for new ideas or concepts isnt much of a forum - especially considering how wide open Twilight 2000 is (keep in mind that most of the world was never touched by the canon modules as to details so there are literally endless possibilities)

and if my opinion about two modules (one that after reading most of the posts here is shared by a lot of current and former members including the DC working group) and that the canon as they were written led to the game turning a corner, that in my opinion, it shouldnt have makes you leave the forum, then it does

that is not my desire, nor was it my intention

But seeing the US Army turned into just another group of marauders, especially when their country needs them desperately and their are foreign troops on US soil just makes no sense (and that doesnt matter if they are following MilGov or CivGov) - nor does it make sense once you read the Return to Europe modules and see what appears to be a recovering Europe while the US is destroyed - oh and it really doesnt matter if the uber drought lasts only two years versus the implied ten in the modules

the 90 percent of the remaining population who would be dead wouldnt care much

and as I have said - it also makes most of the rest of the modules make no sense since Reset, the nuclear scientists, and the oil from that off shore rig in Texas all are dead plot ends when the rest of the country dies

however without those two modules all the rest of them work as a cohesive canon and campaign of survival and recovery and rebuilding

with them anyone in the US basically is playing Aftermath after the spring of 2001

and while Aftermath is a great game its not Twilight 2000

again my opinion

oh and keep in mind Targan - canon is what you make of it and how it rolls - in my campaign the Return to Warsaw module would never have been run - not because we didnt want to go back to Europe but because during the original module one of our guys shot the Baron and killed him - so that part of the canon would have never occured if we had gone back

same for White Eagle - we gave the Madonna to Stark in Krakow since we did Black Madonna first due to the roads we took escaping - so there goes the Priest and his forces gathered around the Madonna

thus by our very actions we played fast and loose with the canon just by playing the game

[Medic]

Olefin and Targan, I suggest you both calm down - I'm not a mod here nor do I try to claim to be one, but really - I think there's room for the both of you here without the need to bicker.

Yes, Olefin has different ideas than those of the GDW and many participants here, but since others have been allowed to post their alternate timelines here, I don't see anything wrong with this thread.

Then again, Targan is well within his rights to express his opinion and it should be taken as such. Disagreeing with something or someone isn't exactly rude and I'd rather not see this turn in to a flamewar and arguing about who has the bigger virtual you-know-what.

If you ask me, The original idea was that the world as we know it ceases to exist. Nations no longer mean that much, especially with the U.S. divIded between the CivGov and MilGov. There for, I sincerily doubt, there'd be any carriers floating, since all it takes to sink one is a nuclear tipped torpedo and with the knowledge I have about the Soviet-built submarines, the Kilo-class for an example is something that can deliver just that being so quiet, it can nearly hump a whale and get away with it without the whale even noticing. But this is not saying, you can not run your own version of the story nor discuss about it in here, Olefin - on the contrary. You just have to accept the fact, not all of us are always going to agree with you on all your ideas. No-one agrees with all my ideas either, but it is their perogative.

Thank you and sorry for any hurt feelings or inconvenience.

[Olefin]

Dont worry Medic - I have had a lot more garbage thrown at me before on other forums and I have a thick skin.

And notice I said the words my opinion a lot - i.e. its an opinion

Frankly if others have super thin skins or cant handle anyone who has ideas different than theirs or hey are set in concrete and their only answer to everything is "canon!!!" well then they shouldnt be on a public forum - especially one like Twilight 2000 that has a canon that is full of holes and problems that you can drive an M1 tank thru it.

Which is what I thought we were doing here - i.e. keeping the game alive and in part filling in the areas that are missing and/or revising what is wrong or mistaken or that needs revision (like for instance the Mexicans having Soviet equipment in City of Angels)

Looks like some people cant handle that - and thats too bad.

[Fusilier]

I don't think it's your idea or opinions - it's your delivery.