The Lowly SKS

[Brother in Arms]

I thought I'd do a small thread on this semi-forgotten firearm. That was eclipsed by the ubiqoutous Kalashinkov. Despite that fact they are all over the world and in the hands of poor armys and civillians everywhere. They would definitly play a part in the Twilight war. I am going to cover several variants that would show up.





SKS 45
USSR
The standard SKS rifle used by the Soviet army until replaced by the AK-47 in 1949. Russian SKS's can be distinquished by there excellent fit and finish. They are deeply blued and often times have a reddish or brownish laquered stocks birch stocks, as well as beutifully Laminted wood stocks. All where made in the late 1940's-50's and had 20" barrels that were chrome lined and had flip out Blade type Bayonets.



Type-56
China
China has produced more SKS's than any other country and they number in the several millions. The Soviets lent assitance to set up factorys in china and by the mid 1950's they were in Production. Initially they copied the Russian design but with a few minor changes. The Chinese rifles can be distinquished by there orange colored to yellow laquered wood stocks. Which are made from a softer hardwood found in asia. The earliest rifles has blade bayonets like the Soviet type. But most had the Crusiform spike bayonet similiar to that on the M44 rifle. These rifles originally had 20" chrome lined barrels also later for the commercial market in the 1980 and 90's they made 16" "paratrooper" models and even detachable box magazine models that took AK magazines. Called the type-D and Type-M. As far as I know though only the standard Type-56 was used by the chinese military. The Majority of these rifles being in the hands of the civilian militias or home gaurds. Most of these rifless have been exported from China and are far flung across the globe. Many of which turned up in Africa, Asai and of course the U.S. Infact they are one of the more common military surplus rifles found here especially in the 1990's.


M59, M59/66 and M59/66A1
Yugo Slavia
Initially the yugoslavians made an almost exact copy of the Soviet SKS other that the rifle was stocked in beachwood and made at ZASTVA rifle factory. Then the more common models being the M59/66 was made which had an additional gas cuttoff valve and grenade launching spigot attached to the muzzle of the rifle. None of these rifles where chrome lined and the model M59/66 had phospor night nights and a ported grenade launcher. The M59/66 tritium night sights and a non ported grenade launcher. All could use standard22mm grenade used by NATO. Most of the M59/66 where updated to the 59/66a1 configuration but both types where in use.


M56
Romania
Almost identical to the soviet rifles and were made at CUGIR. These have beech hardwood stocks. For years it was unknown the romanians made the SKS they where thought to be soviet made.


July 10 rifle
Albania
A strange SKS looking something like the chinese version with spike bayonet but with extended hand gard whith huge cooling vents. It has two buttstock traps and a cocking handle like an AK. Very uncommonly seen.


East Germany, North Korea and Vietnam also made the SKS in there own versions that are unlikely to turn up.



I just thought id give you a little information on the variations on the most commonly encoutered types. Of course in Europe the Russian SKS and Yugo SKS will be the most common. Infact the Yugo SKS was used heavily during the balkan war often as rifle grenade launching device as well as a DMR or short range sniper rifle. Im sure you would be finding the SKS in the hands or maruaders as well as villagers anyone who couldn't get an AK.

Brother in Arms

[Raellus]

I've often wondered how many SKS would be encountered in the hands of WTO troops, c.2000 (in the T2KU). I used to use it as a Polish militia weapon of choice until I read somewhere that Poland only ever issued/used it as a parade weapon.

And there are so many AK variants that I doubt the Soviets would ever run out and be forced to issue surplus SKS to their deep reserve formations. I suppose the SKS could be issued to militia units in the USSR and its rebellious republics. Outside of the USSR, I wonder how many SKS would be in military service during the Twilight War.

[ArmySGT.]

1604

[James Langham]

It was still being manufactured as a hunting weapon at the start of the war.

In 2.0/2.2 there will also be stockpiles in Germany that can be issued either to stay behind parties or former East German units (although MPiKMs will be more common initially).

[Targan]

The thread title gives me a bit of a chuckle. Might be lowly in a location where there are a plethora of more modern and more powerful weapons lying about but here in Perth there was quite a bit of concern on the part of the local police a few years ago when a stash of SKS rifles were dug up in a drug dealer's back yard.

If I was staring down the barrel of an SKS I wouldn't be thinking "oh my, how lowly"!

[Webstral]

I have one Russian and one Chinese SKS. I like the rifle. It's easy to operate and easy to shoot. The recoil is bit more difficult to manage than with the M16/M4, but that's to be expected. The stock is too short for me, but that's easily enough fixed. I disassembled my first SKS (the Chinese one) without any aid because the instruction manual was in Chinese. No problem. If one understands the parts of a bolt/bolt group, then the SKS is a snap. I got both of mine for cheap in the 90's.

As a matter of interest, as many as 10 million came in before imports were halted. There were so many in Georgia when I bought my first one in 1994 that I responded to an ad in Macon which listed SKS as 1 for $99 and $90 each is you bought more than 5.

As an aside, when I was thinking of having Huachuca open up an assembly line for its own rifles, I was going to have the post manufacture its own SKS modified for 5.56. I'm on the fence about this one, though. While I remain convinced that Milgov will want to open an assembly line for the AR-18 or something very like it, Milgov in Colorado has more than six times the population base of SAMAD and vastly greater industrial resources. SAMAD may go the route of refurbishing existing weapons.

[WallShadow]

One of Mark's Rules of Life:

There is no such thing as an obsolete tool or weapon, merely obsolete thinking used in their employ.

[Brother in Arms]

targan
I only said "lowly" because people always think AK before SKS. And they don't really consider it a modern weapon. I thought I would give it a little press for a change.

Personally I have 5-6 SKS's and they have been excellent rifles. I have shot 3 deer with my chinese SKS and it killed all 3 with one shot and they didn't go far.

Also they are often more accurate than AK's but that varies. They are certianly almost as reliable as an AK. I think they would be a very common weapon especially in the balkan regions where they were used very recently. Also they show up in russia and any of its sattelite nations.

Webstral
I don't think they would produce the SKS as its far to difficult to manufacture. It's made from heavy steel forgings that are milled ( you could cast them and mill them as the chinese did later or make stamped recievers which the chinese also did but they are rare.) It just uses lots of raw material and takes a lot of time to make them. Also it requires quite a bit of skill. It's much easier to fix broken M16s or anything in the US arsenal than to make an SKS from scratch. AR-18 makes more sese but still quite difficult to manufacture things like barrels and bolts. One armorer can refurbish many many M16's in one day if they have the parts.

[Webstral]

It's much easier to fix broken M16s or anything in the US arsenal than to make an SKS from scratch. AR-18 makes more sese but still quite difficult to manufacture things like barrels and bolts. One armorer can refurbish many many M16's in one day if they have the parts.

The availability of parts is the elephant in the room. At the risk of reopening the discussion on an assault rifle assembly line in Colorado before I've finished writing a proper contribution, the issue is much more complex than putting new parts into a damaged rifle. I know you know that, Brother, but it's worth stating as much.

At some point, pre-war stocks of spare parts are going to be exhausted. Speaking in terms of cantonments, large and small, this phenomenon will affect different cantonments at different times on a per-weapon (model) basis. Like every other machine, firearms have an average rate at which their parts wear out, depending on variables like use, maintenance, climate, and so forth. All things being equal, a firearm that fires more ammunition wears out more quickly than an identical firearm firing less ammunition. One can go down the list of variables this way. The point is that firearms break down over time. Firearms being used, exposed to the elements, and subjected to poor maintenance wear out the quickest, as we all know. Some firearms are more tolerant of abuse than others, which is one of the selling points of the AK-47. We should look at the M16, though, since the M16 is the American service rifle. I’m not deliberately excluding the allies; I’m picking the weapon closest to home for me.

I agree that installing spare parts in an existing rifle is going to be much easier than fabricating a new one. The availability of spare parts isn’t inexhaustible, though. Sooner or later, someone is going to have to make more parts if the stock of M16s in a given locale is to be kept serviceable. We can quibble about the timing, but inevitably more parts have to be manufactured. This includes items like barrels and bolts.

Of course, there are other alternatives. One can swap out inoperable M16s for other rifles. In some locations, comparable rifles will be available. In other locations, comparable rifles will not be available. For a time, working M16s can be consolidated into the highest priority units. Many possibilities can be imagined, but they are all rearguard measures against the advancing decay of the stock of M16s (and other firearms) in the US.

The real issue is cost effectiveness. Assuming that one has the capability of manufacturing things like bolts and barrels, what is the relative value of the total effort expended to fabricate bolts and barrels when compared to the need? It’s easier to put numbers to the former than the latter. The total effort expended to fabricate barrels would include acquisition of materials, labor in the factory, and so forth. The need is a bit more difficult to estimate. Clearly, there’s a value to having a standard assault rifle for the troops. Obviously, combat effectiveness diminishes when the troops are using a grab bag of bolt action hunting rifles of different calibers. But how does one relate the expenditure of effort to fabricate barrels, bolts, and other parts to the needs of the troops in the field in post-Exchange America? On a case-by-case basis seems to be about the only way.

At any rate, I’m increasingly inclined to agree that having SAMAD fabricate fresh SKS probably is not plausible in 2001. The manufacturing effort probably is better invested in making spare parts for the existing stock of M16s, plus captured Mexican rifles, liberated civilian rifles, and so forth.

[ArmySGT.]

There are two Gunsmithing schools in Colorado. Both have mills and lathes.

Trinidad State has a hand operated rifling machine, while School of Trades also trains farriers so they have forges.

School of Trades would be gone in a nuke exchange with the Federal center and the Capitol less then five miles apart each.

Trinidad is pretty sparse country but is rich in natural gas and coal. The coal fired power plant there and in Raton are were shut down decades ago because they are too dirty.

Railways pass right through each. Bring in specialists in forging and casting you could have an arms industry over night. There is a barrel maker in Raton too with three powered rifling machines. Bo Clark.

Trinidad could make 81mm mortar tubes on the five 13 inch lathes, while turning down barrels and doing chambering on the twenty 10 in south bends. Three B&S lathes could be turning out precision pins. The CNC mill could be turning out all manner of parts.

Finally the skills to make a champion benchrest rifle make sub-MOA sniper rifles easily, all you need are scopes.

[B.T.]

At any rate, I’m increasingly inclined to agree that having SAMAD fabricate fresh SKS probably is not plausible in 2001. The manufacturing effort probably is better invested in making spare parts for the existing stock of M16s, plus captured Mexican rifles, liberated civilian rifles, and so forth.

Fair point.

Would the situation be very different in Europe? Yugoslavia had been one of the worlds biggest arms dealer before the civil wars. Isn't it likely, that old weapon workshops would be reopened and used for the production of the SKS?

[Panther Al]

There are two Gunsmithing schools in Colorado. Both have mills and lathes.

Trinidad State has a hand operated rifling machine, while School of Trades also trains farriers so they have forges.

School of Trades would be gone in a nuke exchange with the Federal center and the Capitol less then five miles apart each.

Trinidad is pretty sparse country but is rich in natural gas and coal. The coal fired power plant there and in Raton are were shut down decades ago because they are too dirty.

Railways pass right through each. Bring in specialists in forging and casting you could have an arms industry over night. There is a barrel maker in Raton too with three powered rifling machines. Bo Clark.

Trinidad could make 81mm mortar tubes on the five 13 inch lathes, while turning down barrels and doing chambering on the twenty 10 in south bends. Three B&S lathes could be turning out precision pins. The CNC mill could be turning out all manner of parts.

Finally the skills to make a champion benchrest rifle make sub-MOA sniper rifles easily, all you need are scopes.

If I recall right, Olympic Arms got its start in Colorado Springs, and they are capable of making every part for the M16. I know they relocated to Washington State, but what I don't know is when, and do they still have a presence in Colorado?

[95th Rifleman]

One of Mark's Rules of Life:

There is no such thing as an obsolete tool or weapon, merely obsolete thinking used in their employ.

True

Even in the 21st century the British army still train with the bayonet and have used it in combat, both in Afghanistan and Iraq. one notable example was in Afghanistan when Corporal Bradley Malone of the Royal marine commandos led a bayonet charge that broke a taliban ambush.
In Basra, Iraq, men of the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders fixed bayonest when they ran low on ammo and charged a militia position.

Even in the 21st century world of high tech and precison weaponry, the bayonet has it's place. Goes for any weapon from sticks and stones to assault rifles, all you need is courage, discipline and the will to win.

[Legbreaker]

Psychologically speaking, the bayonet at close range is the superior weapon to a rifle. There's just something about sharp and pointy cold steel presented with purpose that puts the fear of god into an opponent above and beyond even sticking a 12 gauge barrel in their face.

[WallShadow]

Re: the bayonet:

To quote Lance-Corporal Jack Jones of "Dad's Army":

"They don't like it up 'em!"

[bobcat]

Psychologically speaking, the bayonet at close range is the superior weapon to a rifle. There's just something about sharp and pointy cold steel presented with purpose that puts the fear of god into an opponent above and beyond even sticking a 12 gauge barrel in their face.

the reason is while the rifle and shotgun say "im going to kill you" the Bayonet says "im going to come over there and kill you in the most gruesome manner you can think of"

[95th Rifleman]

The bayonet takes away the faceless aspect of war. You see the guy's face, see the determination and rage as he runs towards you and it leaves you in no doubt that this bloke is going to ram his bayonet into your body and keep stabbing untill you are dead.

I think this must be the real fear aspect of the bayonet charge, seeing the other guy's face. All the propoganda bullshit fed to a soldier/insurgent to stiffen their resolve and courage just disappears there and then.

[Brother in Arms]

Bringing it all back to the SKS thats another reason they are a great rifle they usaully have an onboard bayonet so you can conserve ammunition and horribly intimidate your enemies.

(also to the about about firearm and rifle production. Lets face it the AR-15 type rifle is the number one rifle produced in this country today. Even in real 2000 there were several companies in the US with massive assembly lines producing m16 ar-15 parts. One I would consider would be Bushmaster in windham Maine. Maine faired pretty well in the twilight war. Though they would probably be making all the arms for MILGOV)

Sorry to distract from the SKS portion of this thread.

[Webstral]

Although it hardly needs saying, I ought to preface my remarks with the acknowledgement that my ideas are not canon material. That much said, coastal Maine belongs to First District (USCG) in my material. The potential to produce M16-type rifles is most welcome among the Guardians--especially since the maritime environment is hard on the pre-war stock of rifles.

If one is inclined to go with the rudimentary material of Howling Wilderness, then rifles produced in Maine conceivably could be made available to cantonments along the Atlantic seaboard.

[ArmySGT.]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/61979947/A-Guide-to-the-Drilling-Reaming-And-Broaching-a-Bolt-Action-Receiver-at-Home-Raymond-Benwood

http://www.scribd.com/doc/61744767/How-to-Build-the-Antique-Rifling-Machine-using-hand-tools

[Webstral]

Gorgeous resources. Thanks for posting those.

Years ago, I saw a book in the Loompanics catalogue for making machine tools that required no electricity. I'm kicking myself now for not having bought it. Come to think of it, I'm kicking myself for not having bought many of the books in good ol' Loompanics.

The availability of knowledge underscores the point that many things are possible in Twilight: 2000. However, as with all possibilities, means and opportunity are prerequisites. Time, manpower, resources, and know-how are all needed for many of the intriguing possibilities. One reason New America emerges as such a threat is that they do their planning. Their libraries are probably very well-stocked by late 1997. They have the tools they need to make use of the available resources and manpower. Most likely, the critical skills have been identified.

I've have tried to play up the theme of preparedness with my work. Thunder Empire is really all about laying the foundation for success. Poseidon's Rifles, on the other hand, is more about exploiting existing opportunities. Silver Shogunate is more of an effort to show what happens when the good guys don't get it together. (Though admittedly, Nevada is in a tough spot in the event of a sudden collapse of civilization.) The Black Watch in southern Vermont only survives because a survivalist cell does its homework and organizing in advance. Even then, the survivors in southern Vermont hold on by their fingertips for quite some time. When cantonments have access to the right expertise and the ability to support the work, many possibilities that today would be considered cost-ineffective become boons.

[ArmySGT.]

Signup for an account at www.scribd.com

Hundreds of manuals and books there. People put up anything and it can usually be had as a .pdf.

Hundreds of Field Manuals and Technical manuals from the U.S, British, German, and Russians are up. Some 200 years or more old, through WW2 and today.

I have many, many amazing WW2 manuals that show in detail how stuff was done.

http://www.scribd.com/haraoi_conal probably responsible for a few hundred. Seems to have access to the library at the Command and General Staff College at Ft. Leavenworth, KS.

[ArmySGT.]

ooops didn't work.

[WallShadow]

AK47 (C/V) --$100
SKS (C/V) --$250 :confused:
All else being equal, you might as well buy the AK47 if you're going to stock your militia's armory.
Which leads into another question: if you are buying weapons on the open market, say, in Krakow, how many would be available of a type, assuming average success in rolls? I realize this is at the pleasure of the GM, but what should be the limiting factors in units when the item's availability is a given. One? Five? A dozen? As many as they have cash for? The last is highly unlikely considering the somewhat limited contents of the caches of the marauders in FCOK.
I guess a die roll here and there will help. Scrounging, Gunsmithing, and other skill levels could help the player sort out the wheat from the chaff--identifying weapons that would require major repair or are actually inoperable. And other givens are the rule-defined conditions (Rare, Scarce, Common, Very Common) and the locale (major city, city, town, village, open).
Sorry for thinking out loud, but I often try to anticipate problems before I am confronted with them.

[Brother in Arms]

I think they might have added an accidental 0 to the $25! Seriously...they SKS was made in the millions by the Russians, Chinese and Yugoslavians...Poland and Romanian also made thousands of them.

I can't imagine they wouldn't be being used by Reserves and Militias in Poland. Also Polish M44 Mosin Nagant and PPSH-41, PPS-43 and RPD machine gun. This would all be old stuff that was used by the polish military after WW2 but would not be frontline stuff.

BIA

[WallShadow]

I think they might have added an accidental 0 to the $25! Seriously...they SKS was made in the millions by the Russians, Chinese and Yugoslavians...Poland and Romanian also made thousands of them.

I can't imagine they wouldn't be being used by Reserves and Militias in Poland. Also Polish M44 Mosin Nagant and PPSH-41, PPS-43 and RPD machine gun. This would all be old stuff that was used by the polish military after WW2 but would not be frontline stuff.

BIA

Brother, Sorry to disillusion you, but the PPSh, the PPS, the Moisin-Nagant are all rather along the same prices as other SMGs and Bolt-action rifles. In the Post-KaBoom world, a firearm is a firearm and therefore valuable..
What would the modern equivalent of a WWI Chauchat be, I wonder? Radom was listed or indicated on the map as one of the nuked cities: it was also a Pact armory city where weapons were manufactured (Brno in Czechoslovakia is in a similar situation). While the tools, machinery, and stocks of arms may have been slagged, what of the skilled technical personnel who may have escaped? They may be worth hunting down and setting up in a small gunsmithing colony closely allied with an ammunition source (Wojo? Or the town along the Wisla that makes reloads?)

[raketenjagdpanzer]

One of Mark's Rules of Life:

There is no such thing as an obsolete tool or weapon, merely obsolete thinking used in their employ.

I was just leafing through my favorite image dump site (I'll tell anyone who's interested via PM because it is mostly very NSFW, but anyway) and one of the images that popped up was a group of tribeswomen in Africa, all carrying various guns - the woman closest to the cameraman was toting a very operational-looking StG44. Ralph Zumbro, in Tank Sergeant, mentioned them coming up occasionally (along with Mp44s) in the hands of the VC while he was in Vietnam.

So, yeah.

[Panther Al]

I was just leafing through my favorite image dump site (I'll tell anyone who's interested via PM because it is mostly very NSFW, but anyway) and one of the images that popped up was a group of tribeswomen in Africa, all carrying various guns - the woman closest to the cameraman was toting a very operational-looking StG44. Ralph Zumbro, in Tank Sergeant, mentioned them coming up occasionally (along with Mp44s) in the hands of the VC while he was in Vietnam.

So, yeah.

Hell, I toted one in Iraq for a while. The things just keep working.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Hell, I toted one in Iraq for a while. The things just keep working.

SKS, MP44 or StG44?

[Panther Al]

SKS, MP44 or StG44?

MP44. Surprisingly, getting ammo wasn't impossible. Difficult mind, but I kept it fed for almost a month. :)

[Targan]

MP44. Surprisingly, getting ammo wasn't impossible. Difficult mind, but I kept it fed for almost a month. :)

Wow, kickin' it ole skool!

[Panther Al]

You've no idea: I talked about in another thread 'lo ago, but when they took our tanks away we started doing dismounted patrols. Since the M1 only has two rifles, its interesting to decide who gets to walk about with a pistol (OK, we dismounted the 240's, but the point remains).

Did a raid in the Fallujah weapons market, and scooped up all sorts of things - usual AK and sov bits of kit, plus a sterling, and a pair of beat up MP5's - that was more beat up then the prize of the raid. The prize was the pair of MP44's and an Iranian MG3.

Since we already scored a MP40, and we did have fritz helmets...


When higher found out about what my tank crew was walking about with, shitting a brick is a bit of understatement. God, that first year of Iraq was a ton of fun before the PC crap started and everybody went mickey mouse with a vengeance.

[Targan]

I remember when you talked about it a while ago. If higher up forced you guys to patrol on foot why didn't they just issue you extra rifles?

[Panther Al]

Same reason they wouldn't issue more ammo, or let us carry grenades: The commander didn't want us to get too aggressive and upset the locals.

Only 40mm ammo I scored was by stealing it from an MP unit, and *all* of our 5.56 and 9mm resupply came from buying or seizing it from the locals.

Actually came *this* close to getting an Article 15 because of this: the HQ unit I was attached to was hoarding some 5.56 tracer, and the scout platoons was down to about 60rds a man. So I 'accidentally' gave them a couple of cases. My Chain was about to throw the book at me till the platoon sergeants pointed out to the commander that he would have fun trying to explain to higher - for they would make sure I pushed it the max - just why I felt it was needed to steal ammo to get it to a line platoon.

[B.T.]

*Taking this a little more OT - hope you don't mind!*

Hi Panther Al,

I have heard (and read) million-zillion rumours about the reliability and the actual handling of the MP44, but I never met someone, who had live experiences with it. So, can you say something about the rifle and how it worked? Very interested in this.

[Panther Al]

Well, considering they was older than dirt, and hadn't lived in an arms room in quite a long time, rather well. Fed nicely - reasonably accurate once I tuned them in, and once they was given a good going over, reasonably reliable. Nothing world beating mind: Not as reliable as an AK, not as accurate as the M4's, but all things considered, not too bad. Honestly, I think most of the issues, minor that they was, was more age related.

There was a serious concern if they was going to be safe to fire in the first place, but - and I shit you not here - since I actually downloaded a lot of interesting things to my laptop figuring I would have lots of downtime to fiddle about with things, I had the engineering drawings of the MP44 and by using those and basic common sense knowledge I was able to make reasonably sure they would be.


And, if anyone wants copies of those drawings, let me know. I don't think its frowned on to have them as long as you don't use them?

[ArmySGT.]

Heh, buying ammo from the locals.

My MP unit bought a few RPG-7s and rockets from the locals. Using an AT-4 was going to need special permission from god.

There was talk of using them if it came down to raid and resistance was heavy.

Fortunately we never encountered heavy resistance during a raid. We always worked over 4 or more villages like we were planning raids, so the bad guys couldn't figure out where to concentrate.

I was able to scrounge quite a bit of ammo from the clearing barrels. Officers and Senior NCOs seem to get embarrassed that a live round was ejected and seldom pick them up. The other Support troops seemed to be terrified of being found with more ammunition.

From April 03-April 04 I had three (found) magazines filled with 5.56. and another 20 or so loose rounds of 9mmP.

Check points yielded every sort of AK imaginable but occasionally a Sterling or a Beretta model 12 and a Beretta M9 lost by a ARNG unit attached to our BN.

[Panther Al]

Yeah - a lot of the ammo that we didn't get form the locals was found by the clearing barrels.

Kinda sad when you think about it that front line units was forced to act in such a way just to get enough ammo that we could go out with at least one mag.

[Tegyrius]

Hell, I woulda mailed you guys some in a care package if I'd known, but there were a couple of years when Lake City was running three shifts and you still couldn't get 5.56 on the civilian market for love or money.

(Actually, I wouldn't have. ATF has enough of a file on me as it is. But it's the sentiment that counts, right? :D)

- C.

[Webstral]

Not upsetting the locals. I'm glad to see policy was not all tore up just for my rotation.

There are things you do that upset the locals that actually make them happy, and there are things you do that genuinely upset them. We really struggle to differentiate between the two. For instance, there's the presence of foreign troops in the host nation. Yes, that upsets the locals. It surely does. But when given the choice of foreign troops and anarchy, the locals will choose the foreign troops 99% of the time.

The locals want a strong police presence. Most people in a bad neighborhood wants a strong, effective police presence. The ones who don't want a strong police presence are making their living from a weak police presence. Do we care how they feel?

My NG unit had an amnesty for M16 magazines right after I joined. It was pointed out that guys were going out short of mags and ammunition. No questions would be asked when soldiers came in with magazines. One NCO brought in a duffel bag and emptied it into the bin being used to collect magazines. I just happened to be there at the time. I have to confess I was very curious to see what would happen, because the first sergeant was standing in the doorway while the duffel disgorged its considerable contents into the bin. All eyes went to the first sergeant. All he said to the soldier in question was: "Thanks for bringing those back, sergeant."

I never saw an SKS while I was in Iraq. I saw a lot of very interesting variants of the AK, but no SKS. One guy came through with a stainless steel AK-47 that had been cut down to machine pistol size and given considerable bling. I wondered how he would control the recoil once the shooting started. Still, a very sweet-looking piece.

[DigTw0Grav3s]

Maybe I'm being a stupid civvie, but why would mags for an issued rifle be contraband? Over the issued limit, or something?

[ArmySGT.]

Maybe I'm being a stupid civvie, but why would mags for an issued rifle be contraband? Over the issued limit, or something?

There not considered an expendable item. A Unit is required to have so many on hand. Now Day to Day in Garrison, or to an FTX not a big deal. No one is going to need to draw their 7 mag issue. However not every magazine gets turned in after an FTX.

Going to War. The Commander has all his pre-inspections to do and the Armory Officer will have to come up with the required number for a complete issue to a unit.

I have never been in a Unit that couldn't pull together 100% after such a call for magazines; and still NCOs and some smart E4s still came up with extras.

[Panther Al]

There not considered an expendable item. A Unit is required to have so many on hand. Now Day to Day in Garrison, or to an FTX not a big deal. No one is going to need to draw their 7 mag issue. However not every magazine gets turned in after an FTX.

Going to War. The Commander has all his pre-inspections to do and the Armory Officer will have to come up with the required number for a complete issue to a unit.

I have never been in a Unit that couldn't pull together 100% after such a call for magazines; and still NCOs and some smart E4s still came up with extras.

Same here: The only reason I think we came up 100% before our deployment is that our supply sergeant did a drug deal to have a couple of hundred mags 'appear' in his supply room.

By and large, a lot of us bought our own mags: they was generally better. Then, that wasn't a big deal. But over the last year they are cracking down hard on personally purchased equipment - and banning anything that didn't come out of the supply room according to my friends that are still in. They are not too happy about that as the stuff they buy from Ranger Joe's, Magpul, or US Cav is typically a *lot* better than issue stuff. This is damned if you do, damned if you don't: By having Joe buy his own shit, the unit saves money that could be spent on other things: however, if things worked the way they should, Joe shouldn't have too... so... *shrugs*


(No, thats not a For Real Drug Deal: its slang for doing side deals with others to get things on the down low- so higher doesn't have to know about it - and they usually don't want to!)

[HorseSoldier]

I was in theater when they announced that Magpul PMags were now banned, along with anything else that wasn't USGI. This was kind of a pain for me, since all I was using were my PMags I either bought or got issued to me when I was SOF support and a Surefire 60 rounder. A lot of guys in my unit (probably about half the NCOs and E-4s who'd been around a little while) were in the same boat, to one extent or another, and we just kind of ignored it.

We got away with that while the "ban" was in effect by virtue of being about as remote from flagpoles as you could get in A'stan and still be affiliated with Big Army. It would not surprise me at all if the flew in extra sergeants major to BAF and KAF to stand outside DFACs and MWR computer/phone centers to check people for non-issue mags.

I say ban in quotes because apparently whoever announced it got slapped down after a couple weeks and it went away. It was kind of a dumb idea, since all sorts of conventional and cool kid units have purchasing mags with unit funds for a while now and some of the banned magazines (at least PMags) have a NSN assigned to them and can be ordered through the system.

Edit to Add: The above mentioned ban is the official, Big Army one. No representation is made about any unit-level regulation invention, (mis)interpretation, etc., that individuals may be subject to. Being old enough to remember the days before universal reflective belt use, nothing can really surprise me anymore along those lines.

[James Langham]

One of the commonest tricks to acquire magazines is a thorough check of bivi areas after other units have been through. On field exercises I always used to get my advance party to do a thorough check to see what had been left behind. A couple spare always came in useful at the end of an ex when you had lost some.

Shooting competitions were another one where we seemed to end up with extra - most units wanted to get away quick (especially when it rained), we used to be the last to leave and check around again. For some reason we were never ever down magazines (having someone with OCD as your storeman is another good tip - especially when you don't tell cadets how many of the item you started with, only when they have enough to return them!).

When the SA80A2s came in, one of my ex cadets did me a favour and turned up with a carrier bag of the old A1 mags that guys in his (regular) unit no longer needed and wanted to find me a good home for until we changed to L98A2s (with A2 magazines).

Not bad knowing all these tricks and being an officer... really I just know to trust my senior NCOs to look after me!

[ArmySGT.]

I think the PMAG ban comes from the Law suit going on between the DOD (DARPA) and MagPul.

MagPul is suing the DoD for copyright infringement by using a direct copy of their anti tilt followers in the new round of issue magazines.

[Webstral]

Yes, yes. That makes Big Army sense. Prevent the troops from using equipment they find useful to satisfy the lawyers.

Life would be so much better if the lawyers all had to do a tour as an 11B before being allowed to be in a lawsuit concerning military issues.

[ArmySGT.]

I think some General thought he was going to punish Magpul.

Look into the Defense industry Company Officers.

Shocking how many have COL. (Ret), BG (Ret.), MG (Ret), LTG (Ret), or Gen. (Ret.) behind their names.

Especially when you can find they are now working for Companies for which they were the Project Officer for when Active.

[Tegyrius]

The other reasoning I've seen - take it for what it's worth - is that the ban came down because a bunch of Joes couldn't distinguish between Magpul polymer magazines (GTG) and, say, Tapco polymer magazines (crap). The intent, therefore, was to keep all polymer mags out of theatre so people wouldn't be using sub-standard/unreliable gear in combat.

Hadn't heard about the lawsuit, but now that it's been brought up, I find general officer spite an equally plausible explanation. :rolleyes:

- C.

[HorseSoldier]

Yeah, there are, sadly, always those guys -- they also are the ones who think a $100 NcStar ACOG knock off they found on eBay is a great deal and want to replace their issue AimPoint with it.

They run the most amok in units where the leadership has poor backgrounds with firearms stuff, and the easiest remedy is to just ban it if it isn't USGI. In my last unit our senior E-8 had some SOF time on his resume and reserved the right of review on anything anyone wanted to put on their weapon, so things like quality aftermarket optics and PMags were good to go. The guy who wanted to slap an eight power Chinese Leupold knock off he bought in the bazaar on his M4 and pretend he was a sniper . . . not so much.

Hadn't heard about the lawsuit, but now that it's been brought up, I find general officer spite an equally plausible explanation.

Word on the street and such is that the improved "in house" Army follower design is just the Magpul design with the bullet guide swapped to the other side of the follower. I can only assume it was dreamed up by an alumni of the same clown college as the guys who invented the godforsaken ACU camouflage pattern. Sadly like ArmySGT touched on, all of those oxygen thieves will most likely make general and then segue directly into six figure income consulting or executive jobs with the defense industry and keep right on stealing oxygen and squandering tax payer money.

[headquarters]

the reason is while the rifle and shotgun say "im going to kill you" the Bayonet says "im going to come over there and kill you in the most gruesome manner you can think of"

good investment in such an enviroment imho. Not all combat is going to " tactical" some of it is just going to be two starving guys squaring off over a moldy loaf of bread - being able to save a bullet by stabbing someone will make sense in such circumstances. All in all melee weapons will be more useful and more prolific.The bayonet is already issued and would probably be used a lot more than today . ( It is pretty much obsolete today - our unit didnt even issue them).

I suspect the club ( with / without spikes - a.k.a trench club) and the sharpened field showel would make comebacks.

[HorseSoldier]

A bayonet or just a spear would come in really handy dealing with aggressive feral dogs, as well. Lots of people who have access to a firearm in Y2K won't have access to enough ammunition to take pot shots at every dog (or pack of dogs) they run into.

[pmulcahy11b]

They are not too happy about that as the stuff they buy from Ranger Joe's, Magpul, or US Cav is typically a *lot* better than issue stuff. This is damned if you do, damned if you don't: By having Joe buy his own shit, the unit saves money that could be spent on other things: however, if things worked the way they should, Joe shouldn't have too... so... *shrugs*


+1+!

[pmulcahy11b]

(Actually, I wouldn't have. ATF has enough of a file on me as it is. But it's the sentiment that counts, right? :D)

- C.

Hmmmm...makes me wish I still had my TS clearance with three special accesses...:D

[bobcat]

back to the SKS. it would quickly be a popular weapon in the US due to the fact they've been cheap and available en-mass sinces around the 80's.(i also imagine the CD stockpiles of ww2 era weapons and ammo would also be released so the M1 carbine and chicago typewriter would also make comebacks.:D)

[Webstral]

If the intended target of the bayonet actually gets the message "I'm going to come over there and kill you, blah, blah," then the bayonet user has seriously misused the bayonet. The bayonet is for use in darkness or under conditions of very restricted lines of sight, like a trench or fighting position. Even then, the user should be following up a grenade attack. The best use of the bayonet isn't fighting. The best use of the bayonet is finishing off folks who have been stunned by the use of another weapon or who can't see the bayonet user coming.

[Adm.Lee]

If the intended target of the bayonet actually gets the message "I'm going to come over there and kill you, blah, blah," then the bayonet user has seriously misused the bayonet. The bayonet is for use in darkness or under conditions of very restricted lines of sight, like a trench or fighting position. Even then, the user should be following up a grenade attack. The best use of the bayonet isn't fighting. The best use of the bayonet is finishing off folks who have been stunned by the use of another weapon or who can't see the bayonet user coming.

I sort of disagree with the last sentence.

History seems full of examples in which one side in combat will give up a position rather than face a determined and aggressive enemy up close. It doesn't have to be with bayonets fixed, as you say, it could be grenades or just the sight of the enemy coming and coming closer. So, IMO, if the enemy gets the message that "I'm coming over there to kill you" and they aren't motivated enough to stay around, then the bayonet has done its job, whether or not it's fixed. It's the willingness to close to bayonet range (or, in reverse, the willingness to stand at that range in the face of an attack) that sometimes wins battles.

Best source for this: Paddy Griffith's "Forward into battle"

[Webstral]

It's the willingness to close to bayonet range (or, in reverse, the willingness to stand at that range in the face of an attack) that sometimes wins battles.

So the bayonet is really beside the point. It's the spirit of aggression that causes a less-committed enemy to retire. The Japanese banzai charges failed not because their bayonets weren't fixed but because the Americans were willing to stand and fight and just happened to have superior firepower.

[Legbreaker]

I sort of disagree with the last sentence.

And I'm completely in agreement with Adm.Lee.

Bayonets don't need to be inserted into flesh to be effective, in fact the best result is achieved when they're simply presented forcefully and the intended recipient up and flees. As said many, many times in the past (one quote from the old British TV show "Dads Army" springs to mind) "they don't like it up 'em!"

If on the other hand the attacker shows any reluctance at all in closing and drawing blood, it all becomes a bit of a joke. Speed and (especially) AGRESSION is key.

[Targan]

Gurkhas. Fists full of cold steel and death in their eyes. Terrifying.

[James Langham]

Most sources show that the act of fitting the bayonet is a wonderful way to concentrate the attackers' minds prior to the attack. the defenders will not have this advantage thus giving the reason that bayonet charges frequently work.

And I'm completely in agreement with Adm.Lee.

Bayonets don't need to be inserted into flesh to be effective, in fact the best result is achieved when they're simply presented forcefully and the intended recipient up and flees. As said many, many times in the past (one quote from the old British TV show "Dads Army" springs to mind) "they don't like it up 'em!"

If on the other hand the attacker shows any reluctance at all in closing and drawing blood, it all becomes a bit of a joke. Speed and (especially) AGRESSION is key.

[Legbreaker]

Most sources show that the act of fitting the bayonet is a wonderful way to concentrate the attackers' minds prior to the attack.

It certainly did for me, and for the times I was carrying the machinegun (most of the time) I had a hand axe on my webbing. :p