The Lowly SKS

[Brother in Arms]

I thought I'd do a small thread on this semi-forgotten firearm. That was eclipsed by the ubiqoutous Kalashinkov. Despite that fact they are all over the world and in the hands of poor armys and civillians everywhere. They would definitly play a part in the Twilight war. I am going to cover several variants that would show up.





SKS 45
USSR
The standard SKS rifle used by the Soviet army until replaced by the AK-47 in 1949. Russian SKS's can be distinquished by there excellent fit and finish. They are deeply blued and often times have a reddish or brownish laquered stocks birch stocks, as well as beutifully Laminted wood stocks. All where made in the late 1940's-50's and had 20" barrels that were chrome lined and had flip out Blade type Bayonets.



Type-56
China
China has produced more SKS's than any other country and they number in the several millions. The Soviets lent assitance to set up factorys in china and by the mid 1950's they were in Production. Initially they copied the Russian design but with a few minor changes. The Chinese rifles can be distinquished by there orange colored to yellow laquered wood stocks. Which are made from a softer hardwood found in asia. The earliest rifles has blade bayonets like the Soviet type. But most had the Crusiform spike bayonet similiar to that on the M44 rifle. These rifles originally had 20" chrome lined barrels also later for the commercial market in the 1980 and 90's they made 16" "paratrooper" models and even detachable box magazine models that took AK magazines. Called the type-D and Type-M. As far as I know though only the standard Type-56 was used by the chinese military. The Majority of these rifles being in the hands of the civilian militias or home gaurds. Most of these rifless have been exported from China and are far flung across the globe. Many of which turned up in Africa, Asai and of course the U.S. Infact they are one of the more common military surplus rifles found here especially in the 1990's.


M59, M59/66 and M59/66A1
Yugo Slavia
Initially the yugoslavians made an almost exact copy of the Soviet SKS other that the rifle was stocked in beachwood and made at ZASTVA rifle factory. Then the more common models being the M59/66 was made which had an additional gas cuttoff valve and grenade launching spigot attached to the muzzle of the rifle. None of these rifles where chrome lined and the model M59/66 had phospor night nights and a ported grenade launcher. The M59/66 tritium night sights and a non ported grenade launcher. All could use standard22mm grenade used by NATO. Most of the M59/66 where updated to the 59/66a1 configuration but both types where in use.


M56
Romania
Almost identical to the soviet rifles and were made at CUGIR. These have beech hardwood stocks. For years it was unknown the romanians made the SKS they where thought to be soviet made.


July 10 rifle
Albania
A strange SKS looking something like the chinese version with spike bayonet but with extended hand gard whith huge cooling vents. It has two buttstock traps and a cocking handle like an AK. Very uncommonly seen.


East Germany, North Korea and Vietnam also made the SKS in there own versions that are unlikely to turn up.



I just thought id give you a little information on the variations on the most commonly encoutered types. Of course in Europe the Russian SKS and Yugo SKS will be the most common. Infact the Yugo SKS was used heavily during the balkan war often as rifle grenade launching device as well as a DMR or short range sniper rifle. Im sure you would be finding the SKS in the hands or maruaders as well as villagers anyone who couldn't get an AK.

Brother in Arms

[Raellus]

I've often wondered how many SKS would be encountered in the hands of WTO troops, c.2000 (in the T2KU). I used to use it as a Polish militia weapon of choice until I read somewhere that Poland only ever issued/used it as a parade weapon.

And there are so many AK variants that I doubt the Soviets would ever run out and be forced to issue surplus SKS to their deep reserve formations. I suppose the SKS could be issued to militia units in the USSR and its rebellious republics. Outside of the USSR, I wonder how many SKS would be in military service during the Twilight War.

[ArmySGT.]

[James Langham]

It was still being manufactured as a hunting weapon at the start of the war.

In 2.0/2.2 there will also be stockpiles in Germany that can be issued either to stay behind parties or former East German units (although MPiKMs will be more common initially).

[Targan]

The thread title gives me a bit of a chuckle. Might be lowly in a location where there are a plethora of more modern and more powerful weapons lying about but here in Perth there was quite a bit of concern on the part of the local police a few years ago when a stash of SKS rifles were dug up in a drug dealer's back yard.

If I was staring down the barrel of an SKS I wouldn't be thinking "oh my, how lowly"!

[Webstral]

I have one Russian and one Chinese SKS. I like the rifle. It's easy to operate and easy to shoot. The recoil is bit more difficult to manage than with the M16/M4, but that's to be expected. The stock is too short for me, but that's easily enough fixed. I disassembled my first SKS (the Chinese one) without any aid because the instruction manual was in Chinese. No problem. If one understands the parts of a bolt/bolt group, then the SKS is a snap. I got both of mine for cheap in the 90's.

As a matter of interest, as many as 10 million came in before imports were halted. There were so many in Georgia when I bought my first one in 1994 that I responded to an ad in Macon which listed SKS as 1 for $99 and $90 each is you bought more than 5.

As an aside, when I was thinking of having Huachuca open up an assembly line for its own rifles, I was going to have the post manufacture its own SKS modified for 5.56. I'm on the fence about this one, though. While I remain convinced that Milgov will want to open an assembly line for the AR-18 or something very like it, Milgov in Colorado has more than six times the population base of SAMAD and vastly greater industrial resources. SAMAD may go the route of refurbishing existing weapons.

[WallShadow]

One of Mark's Rules of Life:

There is no such thing as an obsolete tool or weapon, merely obsolete thinking used in their employ.

[Brother in Arms]

targan
I only said "lowly" because people always think AK before SKS. And they don't really consider it a modern weapon. I thought I would give it a little press for a change.

Personally I have 5-6 SKS's and they have been excellent rifles. I have shot 3 deer with my chinese SKS and it killed all 3 with one shot and they didn't go far.

Also they are often more accurate than AK's but that varies. They are certianly almost as reliable as an AK. I think they would be a very common weapon especially in the balkan regions where they were used very recently. Also they show up in russia and any of its sattelite nations.

Webstral
I don't think they would produce the SKS as its far to difficult to manufacture. It's made from heavy steel forgings that are milled ( you could cast them and mill them as the chinese did later or make stamped recievers which the chinese also did but they are rare.) It just uses lots of raw material and takes a lot of time to make them. Also it requires quite a bit of skill. It's much easier to fix broken M16s or anything in the US arsenal than to make an SKS from scratch. AR-18 makes more sese but still quite difficult to manufacture things like barrels and bolts. One armorer can refurbish many many M16's in one day if they have the parts.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

It's much easier to fix broken M16s or anything in the US arsenal than to make an SKS from scratch. AR-18 makes more sese but still quite difficult to manufacture things like barrels and bolts. One armorer can refurbish many many M16's in one day if they have the parts.

The availability of parts is the elephant in the room. At the risk of reopening the discussion on an assault rifle assembly line in Colorado before I've finished writing a proper contribution, the issue is much more complex than putting new parts into a damaged rifle. I know you know that, Brother, but it's worth stating as much.

At some point, pre-war stocks of spare parts are going to be exhausted. Speaking in terms of cantonments, large and small, this phenomenon will affect different cantonments at different times on a per-weapon (model) basis. Like every other machine, firearms have an average rate at which their parts wear out, depending on variables like use, maintenance, climate, and so forth. All things being equal, a firearm that fires more ammunition wears out more quickly than an identical firearm firing less ammunition. One can go down the list of variables this way. The point is that firearms break down over time. Firearms being used, exposed to the elements, and subjected to poor maintenance wear out the quickest, as we all know. Some firearms are more tolerant of abuse than others, which is one of the selling points of the AK-47. We should look at the M16, though, since the M16 is the American service rifle. I’m not deliberately excluding the allies; I’m picking the weapon closest to home for me.

I agree that installing spare parts in an existing rifle is going to be much easier than fabricating a new one. The availability of spare parts isn’t inexhaustible, though. Sooner or later, someone is going to have to make more parts if the stock of M16s in a given locale is to be kept serviceable. We can quibble about the timing, but inevitably more parts have to be manufactured. This includes items like barrels and bolts.

Of course, there are other alternatives. One can swap out inoperable M16s for other rifles. In some locations, comparable rifles will be available. In other locations, comparable rifles will not be available. For a time, working M16s can be consolidated into the highest priority units. Many possibilities can be imagined, but they are all rearguard measures against the advancing decay of the stock of M16s (and other firearms) in the US.

The real issue is cost effectiveness. Assuming that one has the capability of manufacturing things like bolts and barrels, what is the relative value of the total effort expended to fabricate bolts and barrels when compared to the need? It’s easier to put numbers to the former than the latter. The total effort expended to fabricate barrels would include acquisition of materials, labor in the factory, and so forth. The need is a bit more difficult to estimate. Clearly, there’s a value to having a standard assault rifle for the troops. Obviously, combat effectiveness diminishes when the troops are using a grab bag of bolt action hunting rifles of different calibers. But how does one relate the expenditure of effort to fabricate barrels, bolts, and other parts to the needs of the troops in the field in post-Exchange America? On a case-by-case basis seems to be about the only way.

At any rate, I’m increasingly inclined to agree that having SAMAD fabricate fresh SKS probably is not plausible in 2001. The manufacturing effort probably is better invested in making spare parts for the existing stock of M16s, plus captured Mexican rifles, liberated civilian rifles, and so forth.

[ArmySGT.]

There are two Gunsmithing schools in Colorado. Both have mills and lathes.

Trinidad State has a hand operated rifling machine, while School of Trades also trains farriers so they have forges.

School of Trades would be gone in a nuke exchange with the Federal center and the Capitol less then five miles apart each.

Trinidad is pretty sparse country but is rich in natural gas and coal. The coal fired power plant there and in Raton are were shut down decades ago because they are too dirty.

Railways pass right through each. Bring in specialists in forging and casting you could have an arms industry over night. There is a barrel maker in Raton too with three powered rifling machines. Bo Clark.

Trinidad could make 81mm mortar tubes on the five 13 inch lathes, while turning down barrels and doing chambering on the twenty 10 in south bends. Three B&S lathes could be turning out precision pins. The CNC mill could be turning out all manner of parts.

Finally the skills to make a champion benchrest rifle make sub-MOA sniper rifles easily, all you need are scopes.

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Webstral

At any rate, I’m increasingly inclined to agree that having SAMAD fabricate fresh SKS probably is not plausible in 2001. The manufacturing effort probably is better invested in making spare parts for the existing stock of M16s, plus captured Mexican rifles, liberated civilian rifles, and so forth.

Fair point.

Would the situation be very different in Europe? Yugoslavia had been one of the worlds biggest arms dealer before the civil wars. Isn't it likely, that old weapon workshops would be reopened and used for the production of the SKS?

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

There are two Gunsmithing schools in Colorado. Both have mills and lathes.

Trinidad State has a hand operated rifling machine, while School of Trades also trains farriers so they have forges.

School of Trades would be gone in a nuke exchange with the Federal center and the Capitol less then five miles apart each.

Trinidad is pretty sparse country but is rich in natural gas and coal. The coal fired power plant there and in Raton are were shut down decades ago because they are too dirty.

Railways pass right through each. Bring in specialists in forging and casting you could have an arms industry over night. There is a barrel maker in Raton too with three powered rifling machines. Bo Clark.

Trinidad could make 81mm mortar tubes on the five 13 inch lathes, while turning down barrels and doing chambering on the twenty 10 in south bends. Three B&S lathes could be turning out precision pins. The CNC mill could be turning out all manner of parts.

Finally the skills to make a champion benchrest rifle make sub-MOA sniper rifles easily, all you need are scopes.

If I recall right, Olympic Arms got its start in Colorado Springs, and they are capable of making every part for the M16. I know they relocated to Washington State, but what I don't know is when, and do they still have a presence in Colorado?

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

One of Mark's Rules of Life:

There is no such thing as an obsolete tool or weapon, merely obsolete thinking used in their employ.

True

Even in the 21st century the British army still train with the bayonet and have used it in combat, both in Afghanistan and Iraq. one notable example was in Afghanistan when Corporal Bradley Malone of the Royal marine commandos led a bayonet charge that broke a taliban ambush.
In Basra, Iraq, men of the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders fixed bayonest when they ran low on ammo and charged a militia position.

Even in the 21st century world of high tech and precison weaponry, the bayonet has it's place. Goes for any weapon from sticks and stones to assault rifles, all you need is courage, discipline and the will to win.

[Legbreaker]

Psychologically speaking, the bayonet at close range is the superior weapon to a rifle. There's just something about sharp and pointy cold steel presented with purpose that puts the fear of god into an opponent above and beyond even sticking a 12 gauge barrel in their face.

[WallShadow]

Re: the bayonet:

To quote Lance-Corporal Jack Jones of "Dad's Army":

"They don't like it up 'em!"

[bobcat]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Psychologically speaking, the bayonet at close range is the superior weapon to a rifle. There's just something about sharp and pointy cold steel presented with purpose that puts the fear of god into an opponent above and beyond even sticking a 12 gauge barrel in their face.

the reason is while the rifle and shotgun say "im going to kill you" the Bayonet says "im going to come over there and kill you in the most gruesome manner you can think of"

[95th Rifleman]

The bayonet takes away the faceless aspect of war. You see the guy's face, see the determination and rage as he runs towards you and it leaves you in no doubt that this bloke is going to ram his bayonet into your body and keep stabbing untill you are dead.

I think this must be the real fear aspect of the bayonet charge, seeing the other guy's face. All the propoganda bullshit fed to a soldier/insurgent to stiffen their resolve and courage just disappears there and then.

[Brother in Arms]

Bringing it all back to the SKS thats another reason they are a great rifle they usaully have an onboard bayonet so you can conserve ammunition and horribly intimidate your enemies.

(also to the about about firearm and rifle production. Lets face it the AR-15 type rifle is the number one rifle produced in this country today. Even in real 2000 there were several companies in the US with massive assembly lines producing m16 ar-15 parts. One I would consider would be Bushmaster in windham Maine. Maine faired pretty well in the twilight war. Though they would probably be making all the arms for MILGOV)

Sorry to distract from the SKS portion of this thread.

[Webstral]

Although it hardly needs saying, I ought to preface my remarks with the acknowledgement that my ideas are not canon material. That much said, coastal Maine belongs to First District (USCG) in my material. The potential to produce M16-type rifles is most welcome among the Guardians--especially since the maritime environment is hard on the pre-war stock of rifles.

If one is inclined to go with the rudimentary material of Howling Wilderness, then rifles produced in Maine conceivably could be made available to cantonments along the Atlantic seaboard.

[ArmySGT.]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/61979947/A...aymond-Benwood

http://www.scribd.com/doc/61744767/H...ing-hand-tools

[Webstral]

Gorgeous resources. Thanks for posting those.

Years ago, I saw a book in the Loompanics catalogue for making machine tools that required no electricity. I'm kicking myself now for not having bought it. Come to think of it, I'm kicking myself for not having bought many of the books in good ol' Loompanics.

The availability of knowledge underscores the point that many things are possible in Twilight: 2000. However, as with all possibilities, means and opportunity are prerequisites. Time, manpower, resources, and know-how are all needed for many of the intriguing possibilities. One reason New America emerges as such a threat is that they do their planning. Their libraries are probably very well-stocked by late 1997. They have the tools they need to make use of the available resources and manpower. Most likely, the critical skills have been identified.

I've have tried to play up the theme of preparedness with my work. Thunder Empire is really all about laying the foundation for success. Poseidon's Rifles, on the other hand, is more about exploiting existing opportunities. Silver Shogunate is more of an effort to show what happens when the good guys don't get it together. (Though admittedly, Nevada is in a tough spot in the event of a sudden collapse of civilization.) The Black Watch in southern Vermont only survives because a survivalist cell does its homework and organizing in advance. Even then, the survivors in southern Vermont hold on by their fingertips for quite some time. When cantonments have access to the right expertise and the ability to support the work, many possibilities that today would be considered cost-ineffective become boons.

[ArmySGT.]

Signup for an account at www.scribd.com

Hundreds of manuals and books there. People put up anything and it can usually be had as a .pdf.

Hundreds of Field Manuals and Technical manuals from the U.S, British, German, and Russians are up. Some 200 years or more old, through WW2 and today.

I have many, many amazing WW2 manuals that show in detail how stuff was done.

http://www.scribd.com/haraoi_conal probably responsible for a few hundred. Seems to have access to the library at the Command and General Staff College at Ft. Leavenworth, KS.

[ArmySGT.]

ooops didn't work.

[WallShadow]

AK47 (C/V) --$100
SKS (C/V) --$250
All else being equal, you might as well buy the AK47 if you're going to stock your militia's armory.
Which leads into another question: if you are buying weapons on the open market, say, in Krakow, how many would be available of a type, assuming average success in rolls? I realize this is at the pleasure of the GM, but what should be the limiting factors in units when the item's availability is a given. One? Five? A dozen? As many as they have cash for? The last is highly unlikely considering the somewhat limited contents of the caches of the marauders in FCOK.
I guess a die roll here and there will help. Scrounging, Gunsmithing, and other skill levels could help the player sort out the wheat from the chaff--identifying weapons that would require major repair or are actually inoperable. And other givens are the rule-defined conditions (Rare, Scarce, Common, Very Common) and the locale (major city, city, town, village, open).
Sorry for thinking out loud, but I often try to anticipate problems before I am confronted with them.

[Brother in Arms]

I think they might have added an accidental 0 to the $25! Seriously...they SKS was made in the millions by the Russians, Chinese and Yugoslavians...Poland and Romanian also made thousands of them.

I can't imagine they wouldn't be being used by Reserves and Militias in Poland. Also Polish M44 Mosin Nagant and PPSH-41, PPS-43 and RPD machine gun. This would all be old stuff that was used by the polish military after WW2 but would not be frontline stuff.

BIA

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

I think they might have added an accidental 0 to the $25! Seriously...they SKS was made in the millions by the Russians, Chinese and Yugoslavians...Poland and Romanian also made thousands of them.

I can't imagine they wouldn't be being used by Reserves and Militias in Poland. Also Polish M44 Mosin Nagant and PPSH-41, PPS-43 and RPD machine gun. This would all be old stuff that was used by the polish military after WW2 but would not be frontline stuff.

BIA

Brother, Sorry to disillusion you, but the PPSh, the PPS, the Moisin-Nagant are all rather along the same prices as other SMGs and Bolt-action rifles. In the Post-KaBoom world, a firearm is a firearm and therefore valuable..
What would the modern equivalent of a WWI Chauchat be, I wonder? Radom was listed or indicated on the map as one of the nuked cities: it was also a Pact armory city where weapons were manufactured (Brno in Czechoslovakia is in a similar situation). While the tools, machinery, and stocks of arms may have been slagged, what of the skilled technical personnel who may have escaped? They may be worth hunting down and setting up in a small gunsmithing colony closely allied with an ammunition source (Wojo? Or the town along the Wisla that makes reloads?)

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

One of Mark's Rules of Life:

There is no such thing as an obsolete tool or weapon, merely obsolete thinking used in their employ.

I was just leafing through my favorite image dump site (I'll tell anyone who's interested via PM because it is mostly very NSFW, but anyway) and one of the images that popped up was a group of tribeswomen in Africa, all carrying various guns - the woman closest to the cameraman was toting a very operational-looking StG44. Ralph Zumbro, in Tank Sergeant, mentioned them coming up occasionally (along with Mp44s) in the hands of the VC while he was in Vietnam.

So, yeah.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I was just leafing through my favorite image dump site (I'll tell anyone who's interested via PM because it is mostly very NSFW, but anyway) and one of the images that popped up was a group of tribeswomen in Africa, all carrying various guns - the woman closest to the cameraman was toting a very operational-looking StG44. Ralph Zumbro, in Tank Sergeant, mentioned them coming up occasionally (along with Mp44s) in the hands of the VC while he was in Vietnam.

So, yeah.

Hell, I toted one in Iraq for a while. The things just keep working.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Hell, I toted one in Iraq for a while. The things just keep working.

SKS, MP44 or StG44?

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

SKS, MP44 or StG44?

MP44. Surprisingly, getting ammo wasn't impossible. Difficult mind, but I kept it fed for almost a month.