Alternate British Armed Forces stuff...

[natehale1971]

This is some of what I'm working on... An expansion of the British Armed Forces for a world that the Cold War never ended, and progressed into our world of day (kind of like a more serious version of Archer, that will be the backdrop for the Twilight War game I want to run).

I've been working on alot of things for the British Army.

Right now, this is what i have about the Home Guard that was organized after the Territorial Army was mobilized when the Twilight War had gotten started. I'm guessing at what weapons, vehicles and equipment that the Home Guard would be equipped with... basicly having them wearing old-style pre-DPM battle dress uniforms (going with them wearing them for service dress and combat dress). I saw them using old weapons, apcs and tanks that were still in strategic stockpiles.


British Home Guard

The British Government began organizing a modern Home Guard as Territorial Army units were being activated for their immediate mobilization for deployment overseas, along with the reestablishment of many of the disestablished & disbanded units of the past decades for expanding the Regular Army. The Home Guard

The British Home Guard units were equipped with weapons, vehicles and equipment that were issued from the strategic stockpiles. Home Guard units wore khaki battle dress uniforms that had been retired after the adoption of the modern DPM battle dress.

The British Home Guard would use the same ranks as the British Army, with the highest rank being that of either General or Lieutenant General (or even Major General)... I don't know yet. The Home Guard is suppose to be their to help protect the home front with part-time soldiers under the direction of both the British Army and the Police Force.

I was thinking of the name used for the rank of Private being Warder, but i don't know yet.

L1A1 SLR 7.62mm assault rifle
FV214 Conqueror main battle tank
FV4007 Centurion main battle tank


I'm also coming up with fictional vehicles that are based on some actual concepts as well.. like unmanned aerial vehicles, and a fifth generation fighter... an updated harrier jumpjet for the British aircraft carriers.

The British Defense Industry was increased to provide export sales to commonwealth states... with the collapse of the EU proposals, and growth of various competing military alliances (Med Alliances, Congo Pact, Beijing Pact, Havana Pact, ect) they had alot of people who'd be buying from them.

BAE Systems Corax unmanned aerial vehicle
BAE Systems Phoenix reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicle
BAE Systems <> high endurance reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicle
BAE Systems Fury high endurance unmanned combat aerial vehicle
Zephyr
BAE Systems <> unmanned combat aerial vehicle


Royal Ordnance
Royal Ordnance Factory
Royal Small Arms Factory (Enfield)
Birmingham Small Arms Company

Vickers Defense Systems
Westland Helicopters

British Aerospace Systems / BAE Systems

BAE Systems Land and Armaments
BAE Systems Surface Fleet Solutions
BAE Systems Global Combat Systems Munitions


Hawker Siddeley Group
Hawker Siddeley Aviation (HSA): Aircraft division
Hawker Siddeley Dynamics (HSD): Guided missiles & Space Technology.



Royal Navy ranks:
O-12: Admiral of the Fleet (Adm of the Fleet)
O-11: Fleet Admiral (FAdm)
O-10: Admiral (Adm)
O-9: Vice Admiral (VAdm)
O-8: Rear Admiral (RAdm)
O-7: Commodore (Cdre)
O-6: Captain (Capt)
O-5: Commander (Cdr)
O-4: Lieutenant Commander (Lt Cdr)
O-3: Lieutenant (Lt)
O-2: Sub-Lieutenant (SLt)
O-1: Midshipman (Mid) / Acting Sub-Lieutenant (ASL)
OR-9: Warrant Officer One (WO1)
OR-8: Warrant Officer Two (WO2)
OR-7: Chief Petty Officer (CPO)
OR-6: Petty Officer (PO)
OR-4: Leading Rating or Leading Seaman (LH)
OR-2: Able Rating or Able Seaman (AB)
OR-1: Ordinary Rating Ordinary Seaman (ORD)

Royal Marine ranks:
O-10: General (Gen)
O-9: Lieutenant General (Lt-Gen)
O-8: Major General (Maj-Gen)
O-7: Brigadier (Brig)
O-6: Colonel (Col)
O-5: Lieutenant Colonel (Lt Col)
O-4: Major (Maj)
O-3: Captain (Capt)
O-2: Lieutenant (Lt)
O-1: Second Lieutenant (2Lt)
OR-9: Warrant Officer One
OR-8: Warrant Officer Two
OR-7: Color Sergeant (CSgt)
OR-6: Sergeant
OR-4: Corporal
OR-3: Lance Corporal
OR-1: Marine (Mne)


British Army ranks:
O-12: Marshal of the British Army
O-11: Field Marshal (FM)
O-10: General (Gen)
O-9: Lieutenant General (Lt-Gen)
O-8: Major General (Maj-Gen)
O-7: Brigaider (Brig)
O-6: Colonel (Col)
O-5: Lieutenant Colonel (Lt Col)
O-4: Major (Maj)
O-3: Captain (Capt)
O-2: Lieutenant (Lt)
O-1: Second Lieutenant (2Lt)
OR-9: Warrant Officer One
OR-8: Warrant Officer Two
OR-7: Staff Sergeant (SSgt) / Color Sergeant (CSgt)
OR-6: Sergeant (Sgt)
OR-4: Corporal (Cpl) / Bombardier
OR-3: Lance Corporal (LCpl) / Lance Bombardier
OR-1: Private (Pte)


Royal Air Force ranks: I debated on the rank of Senior Air Chief Marshal for the O-11 rank... but it didn't really seem to fit. Any suggestion would be apprecated.
O-12: Marshal of the Royal Air Force (MRAF)
O-11:
O-10: Air Chief Marshal (Air Chf Mshl)
O-9: Air Marshal (Air Mshl)
O-8: Air Vice Marshal (AVM)
O-7: Air Commodore (Air Cdre)
O-6: Group Captain (Gp Capt)
O-5: Wing Commander (Wg Cdr)
O-4: Squadron Leader (Sqn Ldr)
O-3: Flight Lieutenant (Flt Lt)
O-2: Flying Officer (Fg Off)
O-1: Pilot Officer (Plt Off) / Acting Pilot Officer (APO)
OR-9: Warrant Officer (WO) / Master Aircrew (MAcr)
OR-7: Chief Technician (Chf Tech) / Flight Sergeant (Flt Sgt)
OR-5: Technician (Tech) / Sergeant (Sgt)
OR-4: Corporal (Cpl)
OR-3: Senior Aircraftman or Senior Aircraftwoman (SAC) / Lance Corporal (LCpl)
OR-2: Leading Aircraftman or Leading Aircraftwoman (LAC)
OR-1: Aircraftman or Aircraftwoman (AC)


Regimental Corporal Major (Regimental Sergeant major)

Staff Corporal (Staff Sergeant)
Corporal of Horse (Sergeant)
Lance Corporal of Horse (Lance Sergeant /Corporal)
Lance Corporal

Airtrooper (Atpr)
Bugler (Bgr)
Craftsman (Cfn)
Drummer (Dmr)
Fusilier (Fus)
Gunner (Gnr)
Guardsman (Gdsm)
Highlander (Hldr)
Kingsman (Kgn)
Marine (Mne) Bandsman ()
Musician (Mus)
Piper (Ppr)
Ranger (Rgr)
Rifleman (Rfn)
Sapper (Spr)
Signaller (Sig)
Trooper (Tpr)
Trumpeter (Tptr)

[95th Rifleman]

Home guard would make sense in time of war.

The TA would be the first called up and slotted into regular battalions, after that concsription would kick in so it's entirely possible for a WW2-style homeguard to be formed from old men and young lads.

I was thinking of women, would they be subject to conscription? It's an interesting point in the modern world where so many branches and services are open to women. It would make sense to conscript women aswell and use them in as many non-combat roles as possible, thus freeing men for front-line combat duty.

[natehale1971]

The British Unified Combatant Commands...

I've been hunting to find out if the British Armed Forces has anything like the United States Unified Combantant Commands, and haven't found anything yet.. So I came up with something along these lines...


British Forces Europe
British Forces Americas (North, Central & South America)
British Forces Africa
British Forces Far East (Asia & Pacific Rim)
British Forces Near East (Middle East)
British Forces Gibraltar
British Forces Hong Kong
British Forces Brunei
British Forces Cyprus
British Forces Falkland Islands
British Forces Caribbean (or would it be British Forces Jamica?)


British Army
-Regular Army
-Territorial Army
-Home Guard

Royal Navy
-Royal Navy Reserve
-Royal Marines

Royal Air Force

[natehale1971]

Home guard would make sense in time of war.

The TA would be the first called up and slotted into regular battalions, after that concsription would kick in so it's entirely possible for a WW2-style homeguard to be formed from old men and young lads.

I was thinking of women, would they be subject to conscription? It's an interesting point in the modern world where so many branches and services are open to women. It would make sense to conscript women aswell and use them in as many non-combat roles as possible, thus freeing men for front-line combat duty.

Yes... Conscription would inculde women. in a way I was thinking that by volunteering for service in the Home Guard, it could allow for women to not get drafted for the Regular or Territorial Army. Especially those who are single mothers.

[95th Rifleman]

In a major war the territorial army would cease to exist.

The terrirtorials would be folded into the regular army. The terrirtorials are a purely peacetime construct. Very different from the US national guards.

[natehale1971]

Even after having been folded into the Regular Army, would they still have the title as having original been Territorial Army units? Ie... the (TA) after their name? Or is that removed?

In the US we have the Regular Army, the Army National Guard and Conscripts that are brought together to create the Army of the United States (AUS).

On our dogtags the service number would be followed up with RA for regular army, ARNG for National Guard and AUS for drafted personnel. is there anything like that for the British dogtags?

[Rainbow Six]

The Home Service Force (HSF) would fill the role of the Home Guard. In the event of a major War it would probably be expanded and recruitement criteria probably relaxed to include those who didn't have prior military service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Service_Force

[95th Rifleman]

Nope, goes back to the Regimental system.

Most TA units are a battalion of a regular Regiment, I'll give you an example.

The Rifles

The Rifles have 5 regular battalions, 1st Btn is a commando unit, 2nd and 3rd are light infantry, 4th is mechanised and 5th is Armoured.

In the british army a mechanised Btn uses older APCs while Armoured infantry use the Warrior IFV.

The Rifles have two TA Btns 6th and 7th.

When the brown stuff hits the rotary air cooling device, the 6th and 7th will be folded into the regular Btns and will just become regular infantry.

TA are essentilay part-time regulars who share the regimental identity of their parent unit. It's a very different system to the US natonal guards.

[Rainbow Six]

To be fair, during the Cold War the TA had slightly different roles. Looking purely at the Infantry there were iirc - (I'm doing this from memory and while my boss isn't looking) forty one TA Infantry battalions. Fourteen were slated for home defence, whilst the remainder were allocated a BAOR reinforcement role - Cold War plans called for virtually the entire 2nd Infantry Division to be formed from Territorials. They would have fought as organised Battalions (their role iirc was to defend the rear areas and supply lines).

However since the end of the Cold War the TA have served primarily to reinforce Regular units, much as 95th Rifleman has outlined with the Rifles. For example most regular units serving in Afghanistan at the moment will have TA soldiers who have volunteered to serve on an individual basis, so a TA Paratrooper who is nominally part of the 4th Battalion (the TA's only remaining Para Bn) would be attached to one of teh Regular Para Battalions for a tour on Afghanistan.

[95th Rifleman]

To be fair, during the Cold War the TA had slightly different roles. Looking purely at the Infantry there were iirc - (I'm doing this from memory and while my boss isn't looking) forty one TA Infantry battalions. Fourteen were slated for home defence, whilst the remainder were allocated a BAOR reinforcement role - Cold War plans called for virtually the entire 2nd Infantry Division to be formed from Territorials. They would have fought as organised Battalions (their role iirc was to defend the rear areas and supply lines).

However since the end of the Cold War the TA have served primarily to reinforce Regular units, much as 95th Rifleman has outlined with the Rifles. For example most regular units serving in Afghanistan at the moment will have TA soldiers who have volunteered to serve on an individual basis, so a TA Paratrooper who is nominally part of the 4th Battalion (the TA's only remaining Para Bn) would be attached to one of teh Regular Para Battalions for a tour on Afghanistan.

Good point, well made. I'm thinking from today's perspective.

In either case when a TA soldier is called up in time of war to either reinforce an existing regiment or form a new one, he'll cease to be TA.

Assuming the British army didn't get raped by defence cuts i suppose we'd have to look at an organisatiom morelike the 80's than the last 10 years.

[Rainbow Six]

Assuming the British army didn't get raped by defence cuts i suppose we'd have to look at an organisatiom morelike the 80's than the last 10 years.

Yep...the way I see it Nate's going for a continued Cold War with a strengthened British Army. Possibly one where there's still a Strategic Defence Review circa 1990 but it increases rather than decreases Army numbers.

[perardua]

The RAF has the Royal Auxiliary Air Force as its closest equivalent to the TA. I also struggle to believe that there would be a surplus of khaki uniforms floating about in a warehouse somewhere in the 90s as compared to the enormous number of DPM items produced over the years. I imagine that the majority of the WW2 style battledress would have been disposed of by that point. It might make more sense for the regular forces and better equipped reserve units to be wearing CS95, at least in the early stages of the war, and the rest of the reserves and the Home Guard to be wearing older version of DPM dress. Alternatively, you could always stick the Home Guard in OG lightweights as the Army moves towards wearing CS95 as their working dress and stops issuing barracks dress.

[Rainbow Six]

I also struggle to believe that there would be a surplus of khaki uniforms floating about in a warehouse somewhere in the 90s as compared to the enormous number of DPM items produced over the years. I imagine that the majority of the WW2 style battledress would have been disposed of by that point. It might make more sense for the regular forces and better equipped reserve units to be wearing CS95, at least in the early stages of the war, and the rest of the reserves and the Home Guard to be wearing older version of DPM dress.

Agreed.

Perhaps HSF troops could be issued DPM jackets with OG trousers?

[perardua]

And puttees?

[Rainbow Six]

And puttees?

Why not! :D

There's actually a useful article on the Twilight 2000 wiki about British uniforms...

http://twilight2000.wikia.com/wiki/British_Uniform

And on that note I better get back to work!

[natehale1971]

Yep...the way I see it Nate's going for a continued Cold War with a strengthened British Army. Possibly one where there's still a Strategic Defence Review circa 1990 but it increases rather than decreases Army numbers.

Exactly... The Black Winter that saw the Soviet Forces in Eastern Europe opening a massive can of whop-ass that was used to kick the Soviet Bloc back in line really scared the shit out of everyone... the surprise and swiftness that the Soviet forces had mobilized and carried out their operation had occuried in such a way that NATO wasn't really sure what was happening until it was too late.

Thus the NATO forces remained at full strength and developed force increases instead of decreases.

Hong Kong never was turned over to the PRC, the Treaty of Nanking that gave Hong Kong in perpetuity and the discovery of a wartime treaty between the UK and both sides of the Chinese Civil War that not only reinforced this, but gave the UK some more territory around Hong Kong (and opened up the possiblities of other concession areas throughout China that would have been brokered by the British with what ever government would be ruling China).

Now that i know that Territorial Army units are Light Infantry and Motorized Infantry units... I can understand better what's happening.

reestablishiment of disbanded (or just the creation of new) mechanized infantry, armoured and cavalry units might be a big thing during the expansion of the British Armed Forces.

[95th Rifleman]

Now that i know that Territorial Army units are Light Infantry and Motorized Infantry units... I can understand better what's happening.


Not exactly.

The Rifle's TA are light and motorised because that is the Rifle's main battle role.

Every Regiment's TA unit is roughly the same as their parent Regiment. Artillery TA are trained gunners, Cavalry TA are trained tankers etc.

[natehale1971]

I was picturing the Home Guard having a look of paramilitary (well, armed police) instead of the regular British Army. That's why i was going with the pre-DPM battle dress being issued from the stockpiles along with civilian articles.

I was seeing the Home Guard helping the Police with keeping the peace... especially dealing with anti-war riots that would be breaking out after the implimentation of the Draft on a very wide scale that included women. But the legislation would give women the ability to join the Home Guard to escape the draft (with preference to single mothers for such actions).

Also Consiencious Objectors wouldn't be getting out of serving in some kind of uniformed capacity... be it in the Home Guard or as a member of a construction battalion who'd be tasked with building, repairing and clearing areas that had been attacked.

[natehale1971]

Not exactly.

The Rifle's TA are light and motorised because that is the Rifle's main battle role.

Every Regiment's TA unit is roughly the same as their parent Regiment. Artillery TA are trained gunners, Cavalry TA are trained tankers etc.

Ah. thanks for the clarification.

when a TA unit is activated into a RA unit, they'd be deployed overseas, but how long would it take for them to be deployed? Would additional units that were being established/mobilized be classed as TA or just a new RA unit as it transititions during training?

[Rainbow Six]

Question - when did you plan to implement conscription? Before the War starts (and if so, how many years) or after it has started?

[natehale1971]

Question - when did you plan to implement conscription? Before the War starts (and if so, how many years) or after it has started?

Conscription starts about the same time as the US and Canadians instituted it... shortly after NATO throws in support for the two German states in evicting the Soviets right after the Czechoslovak forces invaded Southern Germany and pretty much attacked the US forces in Bavaira... thus, the OFFICIAL start of the Europ-Soviet War (though many observers and commentators consider the DNVA Putsch and the West German Bundeswehr handling the eviction as the start of the Euro-Soviet War).

the nuclear exchanges in Europe and North America isn't for a year and half after that.

[Sanjuro]

Highest rank in all three Armed services is O-11;
RAF- Marshal of the RAF
RN- Admiral of the Fleet
Army- Field Marshal
Even at Second World War manning levels, these proved sufficient to cover all the required posts.
At current levels, these ranks are not necessary- promotion to O-11 tends to be a reward for long service as an alternative to retirement. The current Chief of Defence Staff is a General; his juniors as Chief of the General Staff, Chief of the Air Staff and First Sea Lord are all also O-10s.
Congratulations at finding all those variants on the rank of Private; there were some in there even I'd forgotten! (along with others I only recognise from Afghanistan casualty lists).
I would concur with the other posters about khaki uniforms- DPM for Home Guard is more likely, along with '58 pattern webbing seems more likely.

[Sanjuro]

when a TA unit is activated into a RA unit, they'd be deployed overseas, but how long would it take for them to be deployed? Would additional units that were being established/mobilized be classed as TA or just a new RA unit as it transititions during training?
TA units tasked to BAOR would be available within 2 weeks or so from a standing start- this could be expected to be less if there was a period of tension before the war started. A difference in quality is apparent for about 6 weeks of war use- after that TA units are indistinguishable from regulars.
During WW2 regular recruitment actually ceased- all new recruits were considered to be Hostilities Only personnel, subject to demob at the end of the war; for example the RAF stopped recruiting before WW2 started, and passed recruiting to the RAFVR. Royal Auxiliary Air Force units traditionally handled their own recruitment- they also were folded into the RAF as just another unit for the duration of the war.
I believe that before WW1 the TA had an organisation more like the US State National Guards, (hence the name Territorial) but that they were changed to their modern form as part of the Army reforms under Field Marshal Lord Roberts VC (Bobs, as Kipling called him).

[natehale1971]

I know... please remember this is an alternate setting and that the addition of the O-12 rank was something that was used in as ranks that were held by the Prime Minister, Defense Minister and Monarch since they took active roles in the actual military planning.

Prince William and Prince Harry take a very active role in the armed forces... In fact, in this setting Prince Harry would prove himself to be an exceptionally gifted when it comes to military strategy and logistics planning. Prince William bascily became the centre of morale boosting activties, while Harry was seen as a the Fighting Man's Prince... sort of like Bradley was seen as the "Fighting Man's General" during the Second World War.

I've actually written up the Defense Staff... and while the O-11 and O-10 ranks were used for them, it was the fact that the Prime Minister and Royals had held a military rank before the outbreak of the war. and some of the non-military personnel were treating them as if they had no actual experience. And thus the creation of the wartime ranks.

Highest rank in all three Armed services is O-11;
RAF- Marshal of the RAF
RN- Admiral of the Fleet
Army- Field Marshal
Even at Second World War manning levels, these proved sufficient to cover all the required posts.
At current levels, these ranks are not necessary- promotion to O-11 tends to be a reward for long service as an alternative to retirement. The current Chief of Defence Staff is a General; his juniors as Chief of the General Staff, Chief of the Air Staff and First Sea Lord are all also O-10s.
Congratulations at finding all those variants on the rank of Private; there were some in there even I'd forgotten! (along with others I only recognise from Afghanistan casualty lists).
I would concur with the other posters about khaki uniforms- DPM for Home Guard is more likely, along with '58 pattern webbing seems more likely.

[95th Rifleman]

reestablishiment of disbanded (or just the creation of new) mechanized infantry, armoured and cavalry units might be a big thing during the expansion of the British Armed Forces.

Technicly no disbanded unit is removed from the rolls. It takes some act of great shame or treason for that to happen. So older regiments would just be rebuilt, given the old regimental name and designation and sent forth.
This helps to create a sense of history in a new regiment.

Also regiments previously amalgamated can be expanded and restored to their original colours. An example would be the 9th/12th Lancers (one of our recon regiments), they could be expanded and restored as two seperate regiments, the 9th lancers and the 12th lancers.

A long term rebuilding project would focus on restoring previously almagamated regiments before building new ones as it's easier to expand a current unit and then split it than it is to build from scratch.

[Rainbow Six]

Conscription starts about the same time as the US and Canadians instituted it... shortly after NATO throws in support for the two German states in evicting the Soviets right after the Czechoslovak forces invaded Southern Germany and pretty much attacked the US forces in Bavaira... thus, the OFFICIAL start of the Europ-Soviet War (though many observers and commentators consider the DNVA Putsch and the West German Bundeswehr handling the eviction as the start of the Euro-Soviet War).

the nuclear exchanges in Europe and North America isn't for a year and half after that.

OK...

I have to say that in my opinion without conscription any expansion of the British Army at the end of the 80's / start of the 90's is going to be relatively modest...the military were struggling to keep the units that they had at full strength without raising any new ones. There are various proposed orders of battle for a T2K British military (including one of mine! :)) most of which add in a couple of Infantry Battalions - extra Gurkha Battalions are also a popular option on the basis that 1) the Gurkhas always have more applicants than they have places for and 2) it would be a less expensive option for the British Government. Likely candidiates for "resurrection" (again I'm going from memory) were the 4th Battalion, Royal Anglian Regiment (which existed until around 1975), 4th Battalion, Queen's Regiment, and 4th Battalion, Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (as others have already stated I think it's much more likely for existing Regiments to get additional Battalions rather than new formations being raised - tradition and all that...)

Another option would be to add one (or more) TA Armoured Regiments with MBT's, probably Chieftains that would otherwise have been placed in storage (IRL there were five TA Armoured Regiments at the end of the Cold War, none of which were equipped with heavy armour - two were earmarked for the BAOR (2nd Infantry Division) and were equipped primarily with the Fox armoured car and three of which were earmarked for Home Defence and (iirc) equipped primarily with Land Rovers.

During the Cold War the BAOR's strength was four Divisions - 1st, 3rd, and 4th Armoured, all of which were Regular Army Divisions consisting of approximately six - seven armoured Regiments (one Recce and the others MBT) and six infantry Battalions equipped with the Warrior. Additional TA Battalions would be added in time of War (most TA Bns would go to the 4th Dvn, which (I think) was the reserve Division. The other Division was the 2nd Infantry which consisted of one regular Infantry Brigade (24th) in an Airmobile role and two TA Infantry Brigades.

Now, that said, taking on board the fact that this is an alternate setting you could possibly look at adding another Division to the regular order of battle, possibly to serve as some sort of strategic reserve with a mix of armour, airborne, and light / mech Infantry...kind of likethe old Field Forces that existed before the BAOR was restructured at the start of the 80's. You could then form another Division (in addition to the Strategic Reserve Division) after the fighting has started (much the way GDW did with their 5th Division) to give you six Divisions in Europe.

[natehale1971]

95th Rifleman...

I have a quesiton...

Would the British Army use Commonwealth Nations Units to help flesh out Divisions and Corps? The Reason I ask, is that the Canadian Army and Austrialian Army sent troops to Europe prior to the fighting in the Far East and Near East needed troops to be sent there as well...

How would they be used as Brigades (to round out a division) or Divisions (to round out Corps)? Or would they be a seperate command?

[natehale1971]

I like the idea of extra Gurkha battalions, because that would definately be what would be happening. in fact it was one of the things I was thinking of since the begining.

I had thought of other units like the rebirth of the African Rifles that would be a unit similar to the Gurkha's... just drawn from the African Commonwealth states.

As well as units drawn from the other various commonwealth states... due to the extension and expansion of the Cold War, the British Commonwealth of Nations became alot more than a social club. The British Defense Industry got a major boost in the arm by selling hardware to those memberstates to counter the growth of the Med Alliance, Congo Pact, Havana Pact, Beijing Pact, and Baghdad Pact. Each of those alliances grew because the Soviets became the cut-rate weapons suppliers of the world, while no longer providing economic support for revolutions (they left that to the PRC.. the Sino-Soviet War was a completely unexpected war that shouldn't have happened, but when it did... it took EVERYONE by surprise).

One of the things that the British Armed Forces to remember, is that they still have Hong Kong as a Garrison... and have to put forces there after things turn sour with the Beijing Pact when North Korea launches an attack on South Korea and Japan... lot's of things that happen without people understanding why until much later. :)


OK...

I have to say that in my opinion without conscription any expansion of the British Army at the end of the 80's / start of the 90's is going to be relatively modest...the military were struggling to keep the units that they had at full strength without raising any new ones. There are various proposed orders of battle for a T2K British military (including one of mine! :)) most of which add in a couple of Infantry Battalions - extra Gurkha Battalions are also a popular option on the basis that 1) the Gurkhas always have more applicants than they have places for and 2) it would be a less expensive option for the British Government. Likely candidiates for "resurrection" (again I'm going from memory) were the 4th Battalion, Royal Anglian Regiment (which existed until around 1975), 4th Battalion, Queen's Regiment, and 4th Battalion, Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (as others have already stated I think it's much more likely for existing Regiments to get additional Battalions rather than new formations being raised - tradition and all that...)

Another option would be to add one (or more) TA Armoured Regiments with MBT's, probably Chieftains that would otherwise have been placed in storage (IRL there were five TA Armoured Regiments at the end of the Cold War, none of which were equipped with heavy armour - two were earmarked for the BAOR (2nd Infantry Division) and were equipped primarily with the Fox armoured car and three of which were earmarked for Home Defence and (iirc) equipped primarily with Land Rovers.

During the Cold War the BAOR's strength was four Divisions - 1st, 3rd, and 4th Armoured, all of which were Regular Army Divisions consisting of approximately six - seven armoured Regiments (one Recce and the others MBT) and six infantry Battalions equipped with the Warrior. Additional TA Battalions would be added in time of War (most TA Bns would go to the 4th Dvn, which (I think) was the reserve Division. The other Division was the 2nd Infantry which consisted of one regular Infantry Brigade (24th) in an Airmobile role and two TA Infantry Brigades.

Now, that said, taking on board the fact that this is an alternate setting you could possibly look at adding another Division to the regular order of battle, possibly to serve as some sort of strategic reserve with a mix of armour, airborne, and light / mech Infantry...kind of likethe old Field Forces that existed before the BAOR was restructured at the start of the 80's. You could then form another Division (in addition to the Strategic Reserve Division) after the fighting has started (much the way GDW did with their 5th Division) to give you six Divisions in Europe.

[95th Rifleman]

95th Rifleman...

I have a quesiton...

Would the British Army use Commonwealth Nations Units to help flesh out Divisions and Corps? The Reason I ask, is that the Canadian Army and Austrialian Army sent troops to Europe prior to the fighting in the Far East and Near East needed troops to be sent there as well...

How would they be used as Brigades (to round out a division) or Divisions (to round out Corps)? Or would they be a seperate command?

Dude, stop scaring me! I was about to write about commonwealth when I read the above. :p

ok, we wouldn't get any Canadians or ANZACs, they are independent nations with their own militaries who serve alongside the british.

However there are severaly countries who send men (and women) to the UK to serve directly in UK regiments. I live in the town of Bicester which is the garriosn town for the 23rd Pioneer regiment. A large percentage of these lads are Fijian with some carribean, St Lucian and african lads aswell as the usual mix of Brits.

I can imagine a stepped up program to recruit for these overseas countries would go alongside an expansion of the Uk forces.

[natehale1971]

How are British Platoons Organized..?

I guess what I am asking, is... What are the positions in the platoon?

Can someone write it out for me in a format that is similar to this?

US Army Platoon Organization (emergency wartime organization)
Section One:
1LT/2LT <name>, Platoon Commander
SGT <name>, Plt Cmdr Radio-Telephone Operator
SGT <name>, Combat Field Medic
SGT <name>, Fire Team Leader
SPC <name>, Grenadier
PFC <name>, Automatic Rifleman
PV2 <name>, Rifleman
SPC <name>, MG Gunner
PFC <name>, MG Assist. Gunner
PV2 <name>, MG Ammo Bearer
SPC <name>, Designated Marksman
Section Two:
SFC <name>, Platoon Sergeant
SPC <name>, Plt Sgt Radio-Telephone Operator
SPC <name>, Combat Field Medic
SGT <name>, Fire Team Leader
SPC <name>, Grenadier
PFC <name>, Automatic Rifleman
PV2 <name>, Rifleman
SPC <name>, MG Gunner
PFC <name>, MG Assist. Gunner
PV2 <name>, MG Ammo Bearer
SPC <name>, Designated Marksman
Section Three:
SSG <name>, Squad Leader
SPC <name>, Radio-Telephone Operator
SPC <name>, Combat Field Medic
SGT <name>, Fire Team Leader
SPC <name>, Grenadier
PFC <name>, Automatic Rifleman
PV2 <name>, Rifleman
SPC <name>, MG Gunner
PFC <name>, MG Assist. Gunner
PV2 <name>, MG Ammo Bearer
SPC <name>, Designated Marksman
Section Four (Indirect Fire Support Section):
SSG <name>, Squad Leader
SPC <name>, Radio-Telephone Operator
SPC <name>, Combat Field Medic
SPC <name>, Designated Marksman
SGT <name>, Mortar Gunner
PFC <name>, Mortar Assistant Gunner
SPC <name>, Mortar Gunner
PFC <name>, Mortar Assistant Gunner
SPC <name>, Mortar Gunner
PFC <name>, Mortar Assistant Gunner
PV2 <name>, Mortar Ammo Bearer
Sniper Section:
SGT <name>, Spotter
SPC <name>, Sniper
PFC <name>, Flanker

[95th Rifleman]

Well we had less kit in the 90's mate!

No grenadiers as the GL36 didn't come into service till the Afghan war.

All we had where the L85, L86 and Gimpy along with the LAW80 and Milan for anti-tank work.

[natehale1971]

Dude, stop scaring me! I was about to write about commonwealth when I read the above. :p

ok, we wouldn't get any Canadians or ANZACs, they are independent nations with their own militaries who serve alongside the british.

However there are severaly countries who send men (and women) to the UK to serve directly in UK regiments. I live in the town of Bicester which is the garriosn town for the 23rd Pioneer regiment. A large percentage of these lads are Fijian with some carribean, St Lucian and african lads aswell as the usual mix of Brits.

I can imagine a stepped up program to recruit for these overseas countries would go alongside an expansion of the Uk forces.

So would the Canadians and ANZACS send their troops as full Brigdes or Divisions as their Expeditiationary Forces who'd be used as full commands of their own?

As i said earilier I was thinking of African Rifles being one of the units like the Brigade of Gurkhas being part of the Commonwealth of Nations personnel recruited for fleshing out the British Armed Forces.

Would it be easier for the biggest expansions of the British Army to have come through the Territorial Army units?

[95th Rifleman]

So would the Canadians and ANZACS send their troops as full Brigdes or Divisions as their Expeditiationary Forces who'd be used as full commands of their own?

As i said earilier I was thinking of African Rifles being one of the units like the Brigade of Gurkhas being part of the Commonwealth of Nations personnel recruited for fleshing out the British Armed Forces.

Would it be easier for the biggest expansions of the British Army to have come through the Territorial Army units?

Yeah the Canadians and ANZACs woud have their own divisons/brigades and their own command linked in with british high command they way they operated back in WW1 and WW2.

The TA where established with future, emergency expansion in mind so yeah, they would do the lion's share of wartime expansion, but only in wartime.

If your talking about peactime expansion due to the threat of the Russian bear then it would be done the old fashioned way (slowly) as recruitment is stepped up and battalions formed organicly before being split offfrom parent regiments to form their own regiment (like I mentioned with the 9th/12th lancers).

The inherent beuty of the regimental system is it is surprisingly easy to expand as it is to cut down, all you need are numbers and time.

[natehale1971]

Well we had less kit in the 90's mate!

No grenadiers as the GL36 didn't come into service till the Afghan war.

All we had where the L85, L86 and Gimpy along with the LAW80 and Milan for anti-tank work.

This is the only notes that i've been able to find on a British Platoon organization... is it right?

British Army Platoon:
2Lt/Lt <>, Platoon Commander
Sgt./SSgt. <>, Platoon Sergeant
<>, Singnaller
<>, Mortar man
Section:
Cpl. <>, Section/Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Automatic Rifleman
Pte. <>, Rifleman
Pte. <>, Designated Marksman
LCpl. <>, Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Automatic Rifleman
Pte. <>, Rifleman
Pte. <>, Designated Marskman
Section:
Cpl. <>, Section/Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Automatic Rifleman
Pte. <>, Rifleman
Pte. <>, Designated Marksman
LCpl. <>, Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Automatic Rifleman
Pte. <>, Rifleman
Pte. <>, Designated Marskman
Section:
Cpl. <>, Section/Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Automatic Rifleman
Pte. <>, Rifleman
Pte. <>, Designated Marksman
LCpl. <>, Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Automatic Rifleman
Pte. <>, Rifleman
Pte. <>, Designated Marskman

[Rainbow Six]

I had thought of other units like the rebirth of the African Rifles that would be a unit similar to the Gurkha's... just drawn from the African Commonwealth states.

Highly unlikely in my opinion - as 95th Rifleman has said, Commonwealth countries are all independent nations and would be unlikely to commit organised military units to serve under British command, although individuals can serve, again as mentioned by 95th Rifleman.

One of the things that the British Armed Forces to remember, is that they still have Hong Kong as a Garrison... and have to put forces there after things turn sour with the Beijing Pact when North Korea launches an attack on South Korea and Japan... lot's of things that happen without people understanding why until much later. :)

IRL Hong Kong garrison at the end of the 80's consisted of one British Battalion and approx three - four Gurkha Battalions. To put a stronger garrison in HK you'd have to take them from elsewhere....robbing Peter to pay Paul so to speak. Your best option here would be Gurkhas. I'd recommend looking at the British Army oder of battle on the Etranger website (specifically the 6th Division) for a good example of how to raise additional Gurkha Battalions.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/Historical/BritA2K.htm

[95th Rifleman]

That's about right for a modern platoon, aye. in the 90's we'd have no genadiers and no desigated marksmen as that is a relatively recent introduction into British platoons.

I think we had 4 section platoons back in the 90's and one of them was a support section with the gimpy while the other 3 sectons would have L86's as their SAW equivalent. Today the Minimi is used for most SAW use.

[Rainbow Six]

Would it be easier for the biggest expansions of the British Army to have come through the Territorial Army units?

This would also probably be the cheapest option, so that would make it a winner with the politicians...

[natehale1971]

That's about right for a modern platoon, aye. in the 90's we'd have no genadiers and no desigated marksmen as that is a relatively recent introduction into British platoons.

I think we had 4 section platoons back in the 90's and one of them was a support section with the gimpy while the other 3 sectons would have L86's as their SAW equivalent. Today the Minimi is used for most SAW use.

how many personnel were in the support sections for supporting the gimpys?

[natehale1971]

This would also probably be the cheapest option, so that would make it a winner with the politicians...

So alot of Gurhka's and Territoral Army units would make the expansion of the British Army from 1992 to the start of the Euro-Soviet War in 2003 or so then. :)

[95th Rifleman]

how many personnel were in the support sections for supporting the gimpys?

A support section was the same size as a regular section, just they had gimpys instead of L86's.

generaly the support section would cover an advance or retreat while the rifle sections would do the old leapfrog.

[natehale1971]

A support section was the same size as a regular section, just they had gimpys instead of L86's.

generaly the support section would cover an advance or retreat while the rifle sections would do the old leapfrog.

Was it something like this?

Support Section:
Cpl. <>, Section/Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Machinegun Gunner
Pte. <>, Rifleman / Assistant Machinegun Gunner
Pte. <>, Rifleman / Ammo Bearer
LCpl. <>, Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Machinegun Gunner
Pte. <>, Rifleman / Assistant Machinegun Gunner
Pte. <>, Rifleman / Ammo Bearer

Would he rank of the Singaller and Mortar Man be Cpl. or Sgt?

[Rainbow Six]

So alot of Gurhka's and Territoral Army units would make the expansion of the British Army from 1992 to the start of the Euro-Soviet War in 2003 or so then. :)

It's a possibility...

Do you have a rough idea of how many Divisions you want to end up with or how many locations you want to deploy British troops in?

[natehale1971]

It's a possibility...

Do you have a rough idea of how many Divisions you want to end up with or how many locations you want to deploy British troops in?

So far my notes have this...

British Forces Europe
- 1st UK Army (British Army of the Danube): Southern Europe/Balkans
- 2nd UK Army (British Army of the Rhine): Northern Europe
British Forces Americas
- 6th UK Army (British Army of the Amazon): Central & South America
British Forces Africa
- 5th UK Army (British Army of the <>): Africa
British Forces Far East
- 7th UK Army (British Army of the <>): Asia & the Pacific Rim
British Forces Near East
- 8th UK Army (British Army of the Euphrates): The Middle East
British Forces Gibraltar
British Forces Hong Kong
British Forces Brunei
British Forces Cyprus
Sovereign Base Area Akrotiri
Sovereign Base Area Dhekelia
British Forces Falkland Islands
British Forces Caribbean

[Rainbow Six]

Wow...that's...big...

So far my notes have this...

British Forces Europe
- 1st UK Army (British Army of the Danube): Southern Europe/Balkans
- 2nd UK Army (British Army of the Rhine): Northern Europe
British Forces Americas
- 6th UK Army (British Army of the Amazon): Central & South America
British Forces Africa
- 5th UK Army (British Army of the <>): Africa
British Forces Far East
- 7th UK Army (British Army of the <>): Asia & the Pacific Rim
British Forces Near East
- 8th UK Army (British Army of the Euphrates): The Middle East
British Forces Gibraltar
British Forces Hong Kong
British Forces Brunei
British Forces Cyprus
Sovereign Base Area Akrotiri
Sovereign Base Area Dhekelia
British Forces Falkland Islands
British Forces Caribbean

[natehale1971]

Yes... they look very big.

The British Army of the Rhine is the largest single concentration of British Armed Forces outside of the UK.

The British Army of the Thames is the parent organization of all British Army units assigned to the British Isles. They are working at trying to keep the peace and rebuild the country and keep the British Forces out in the field supplied.

The British Army of the Danube is a single Corps that had been sent to reinforce Yugoslavia after they had declared to support NATO, but after Yugoslavia was dismantled by Med Alliance and Warsaw Pact... they are now going to push into Austria and Slovenia (their governments have already unified in all but name) so they can cut off the Italians and link up with the British Army of the Rhine.

The British Army formation in Africa is a single Corps that is built around a British Division supported by several brigades/divisions that are drawn from a coalition of African Commonwealth nations. They started the war in Kenya... trying to reinforce it from being surrounded on all sides by hostile forces.

The British Army of the Amazon is focused heavily on working alongside the US Southern Command fighting in Central and South America... and doing the island fighting campiaign in the Caribbean. They were assigned to reinforce the British Overseas Territories and Dependencies, but brought under a single unified command after the Havana Pact declared war on the UK.

The British Army of the Euphrates is a single Corps level formation that was centered around British Forces in the Middle East supporting USCENTCOM Operations. it's units from the British Army of the Euphrates that recovers evience of the incident that sparked the Sino-Soviet War, and the reason why the Beijing Pact launching a massive offensive against their Western Allies.

The British Army formation in Asia and the Pacific Rim has alot of Aussies and New Zealanders... in fact the bulk of the force is drawn from the Australian Army. Debated with the commander of the 7th UK Army having been a senior Australian officer.

The other forces are the same size as the garrisons that exist IRL, possibly with some reinforcements to account for the fighting... like British Forces Gibraltar (due to Spain being part of the Med Alliance), British Forces Hong Kong (after the Beijing Pact turns against it's western allies) and British Forces Cyprus (thanks to Greece pushing the Med Alliacne into War with NATO over their issues with Turkey)...

British Forces Europe
- 1st UK Army (British Army of the Danube): Southern Europe/Balkans
- 2nd UK Army (British Army of the Rhine): Northern Europe
- 3rd UK Army (British Army of the Thames): British Isles
British Forces Americas
- 6th UK Army (British Army of the Amazon): Central & South America
British Forces Africa
- 5th UK Army (British Army of the <>): Africa
British Forces Far East
- 7th UK Army (British Army of the <>): Asia & the Pacific Rim
British Forces Near East
- 8th UK Army (British Army of the Euphrates): The Middle East
British Forces Gibraltar
British Forces Hong Kong
British Forces Brunei
British Forces Cyprus
- Sovereign Base Area Akrotiri
- Sovereign Base Area Dhekelia
British Forces Falkland Islands
British Forces Caribbean

[atiff]

Yeah the Canadians and ANZACs would have their own divisions/brigades and their own command linked in with British high command they way they operated back in WW1 and WW2.

I am sure Leg can comment better on this but... Australian and NZ armed forces would be involved allies, not subordinates. This is engrained after the experiences of WWII.

Even with my limited knowledge, I would feel 99% confident in saying "regular Aus and NZ forces would not join a shooting war in Europe". (Specialist units like SAS might be different.) Regulars might replace British units in the Far East so that those units can go elsewhere, though.

My 2c,
Andrew

[James Langham]

Why not! :D

There's actually a useful article on the Twilight 2000 wiki about British uniforms...

http://twilight2000.wikia.com/wiki/British_Uniform

And on that note I better get back to work!

Thanks - I wrote that!

Any questions regarding kit please ask.

[James Langham]

Was it something like this?

Support Section:
Cpl. <>, Section/Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Machinegun Gunner
Pte. <>, Rifleman / Assistant Machinegun Gunner
Pte. <>, Rifleman / Ammo Bearer
LCpl. <>, Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Machinegun Gunner
Pte. <>, Rifleman / Assistant Machinegun Gunner
Pte. <>, Rifleman / Ammo Bearer

Would he rank of the Singaller and Mortar Man be Cpl. or Sgt?

Support section would only be present in light role infantry units. Mechanised units add a second sergeant to the mix to command the vehicles when the infantry dismount.

NCOs above would not be grenadiers.

Rifle grenades were on issue prior to the GL being issued.

Also being short of numbers the sergeant often had to carry the 51mm.

Signaller and mortar man were usually privates.

[James Langham]

I am sure Leg can comment better on this but... Australian and NZ armed forces would be involved allies, not subordinates. This is engrained after the experiences of WWII.

Even with my limited knowledge, I would feel 99% confident in saying "regular Aus and NZ forces would not join a shooting war in Europe". (Specialist units like SAS might be different.) Regulars might replace British units in the Far East so that those units can go elsewhere, though.

My 2c,
Andrew

it's not likely but in Korea they did form part of the Commonwealth Division (which also included Belgians under its command!). The 7th COULD become a Commonwealth Division.

[perardua]

As I recall, from the last time I saw an official orbat of one, a Manoeuvre Support Section should be five men strong. Of course, last time I deployed we didn't use a separate MS Section, instead the Sergeant had the 60mm mortar (replacing the 51) and every section had a GPMG in the delta fireteam if they were patrolling dismounted.

Section Commander with rifle and 51mm mortar
Gunner with GPMG
No.2 with rifle
Gunner with GPMG
No.2 with rifle

[perardua]

Oh, and the British forces tend not to use the term Fireteam/Section/Platoon Leader, but prefer the term Fireteam/Section/Platoon Commander.

[James Langham]

Nate,

the HSF were formed as an extra Coy for TA units. They were distinct in their role however, being home defence only regardless of attached unit role. It would be easy to expand these to full Bns relatively easily (e.g. HSF Coy 3 WFR becomes 6WFR - 4 is reserved for TA [and has probably reformed] and the 5th Bn was a cadet unit). As all members in the Coy pre-expansion were ready trained it should be easy to expand provided you don't mind lower standards across the unit. Where you will suffer is logistically with the need for kit (as basic as uniforms but especially heavier weapons). For basing you can use the existing TA centres (supplemented by local cadet huts which are more widespread).

Regarding reforming units, I can't think of a modern example, instead you are more likely to add extra Bns to existing units.

[perardua]

In fact, digging out some old notes, the orbat for an infantry platoon was as follows:

Platoon HQ
Platoon Commander with L85
Platoon Sergeant with L85 and 51mm mortar
Signaller with L85

Rifle Section x3
Section Commander with L85
Rifleman with L85
LSW Gunner with L86
Rifleman with L85
Fireteam Commander/Section 2iC with L85
Rifleman with L85
LSW Gunner with L86
Rifleman with L85

Some units had an MS Section as previously outlined, others had GPMGs in the rifle sections. Officially, however, platoon weapons were L85, L86 and LAW80 only. The LMG (Minimi) and UGL didn't start to come in seriously until the early 2000s.

Oh, and Corporals and Lance-Corporals shouldn't be acting as grenadiers where the UGL is present. They have other things to focus on.

[Fusilier]

The Commonwealth is not a military organisation in any shape or form, just as (to make a comparison) neither is OPEC or Francophonie.

[Rainbow Six]

I am sure Leg can comment better on this but... Australian and NZ armed forces would be involved allies, not subordinates. This is engrained after the experiences of WWII.

Even with my limited knowledge, I would feel 99% confident in saying "regular Aus and NZ forces would not join a shooting war in Europe". (Specialist units like SAS might be different.) Regulars might replace British units in the Far East so that those units can go elsewhere, though.

My 2c,
Andrew

Absolutely agree.

I seem to remember the subject of troops from Commonwealth countries taking part in the Twilight War under UK command coming up a couple of times before...

With the exception of a handful of British overseas territories, none of whom - with all due respect - have significant military forces, Commonwealth countries are Independent States who would decide for themselves whether to go to War or not. The days of Empire, when the Dominions would send their troops to fight - and die - for the mother country are long, long gone. Australia, New Zealand, etc, would be under no obligation to declare War on anyone just because the UK has.

ANZAC troops backfilling for British troops to allow the British to be deployed elsewhere is a possibility. During the Falklands War the Royal New Zealand Navy deployed a Frigate to the Caribbean to allow the Royal Navy warship usually stationed there to join the Task Force.

it's not likely but in Korea they did form part of the Commonwealth Division (which also included Belgians under its command!). The 7th COULD become a Commonwealth Division.

Wasn't Korea under UN auspices? That might make a difference...

Also, one has to bear in mind that the Canadian and ANZAC regular militaries are, relatively speaking, not that large. For example, Canada, which had its own commitments as a NATO member, had I think (going from memory) somewhere in the region of twelve Regular Infantry Battalions at the end of the Cold War, while I seem to recall a recent discussion about Australian troops in Korea where it was suggested that the most the Australians would be able to send overseas without compromising their own security would be a Brigade Group?

[Louied]

In the lead up to WW2 "conscription" started in March 1939. The Compulsory Military Service Act was passed on 7 February 1939, it basically was based on the old Militia concept and eventually 30,000 men, called Militiamen, were called up for training. In September 1939 the Armed Forces (Conditions of Service) Act came into effect which merged the regular army, the army reserve, the TA, & the Militiamen into one organization, the British Army. This was needed because of the chaotic recruiting situation during WW1 where the regular army, the TF, & the New Armies all had seperate recruiting entities.

Rainbow is absolutely correct, the British Armed Forces of the late '80's early '90's were struggling to man all the units that they had, nevermind expanding. I will get into it further when I get home as I'm on my mobile with such issues as the MARILYN Report & Options for Change.
Hey Nate you might also want to check out our earlier discussion and links on the forum its a good head start

British TO&E info (split from British Army Equipment...

[natehale1971]

Thank you for all the info! it's helping alot.

Australians and New Zealand troops taking over the majority of the positions in the Far East and Near East formations would be possible then... While their special operations and other specialists COULD provide support for the British Forces Europe. My original idea was that Austrialians had provided peace keeping troops in Cyprus... and when the Greeks launched an attack on them. Thus triggering their declaration of war, and being part of the British Army of the Danube (the force enaged against the Med Alliance in the Balkans).

The Australians and New Zealand troops in Africa was going to have been Peacekeepers trying to help with the situation in Botswana (sp) where the Congo Pact was sponsoring a rebellion that really distablized the country. And deal with the large numbers of Africans of European descent fleeing from Congo Pact countries.

With the recruitment of Gurkhas would allow for a quick influx of personnel.. and with the fact that post-Black Winter there was a growing fear of the Soviets for several years among the population. Especial when pundits were talking about the fact that NATO just didn't have the manpower to have interviened on short notice.

The US Army built up as well... the addition of the 11th (Air Assault) Infantry Division and 17th (Airborne) Infantry Division are examples of rapid response forces.

[ArmySGT.]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/22561111/Home-Guard-Manual

http://www.scribd.com/doc/28652417/British-Home-Guard-1941

http://www.scribd.com/doc/37190816/THE-HOME-GUARD-POCKET-MANUAL

[natehale1971]

Thank you ArmySGT!

[Rainbow Six]

Thank you for all the info! it's helping alot.

Australians and New Zealand troops taking over the majority of the positions in the Far East and Near East formations would be possible then... While their special operations and other specialists COULD provide support for the British Forces Europe. My original idea was that Austrialians had provided peace keeping troops in Cyprus... and when the Greeks launched an attack on them. Thus triggering their declaration of war, and being part of the British Army of the Danube (the force enaged against the Med Alliance in the Balkans).

The Australians and New Zealand troops in Africa was going to have been Peacekeepers trying to help with the situation in Botswana (sp) where the Congo Pact was sponsoring a rebellion that really distablized the country. And deal with the large numbers of Africans of European descent fleeing from Congo Pact countries.

With the recruitment of Gurkhas would allow for a quick influx of personnel.. and with the fact that post-Black Winter there was a growing fear of the Soviets for several years among the population. Especial when pundits were talking about the fact that NATO just didn't have the manpower to have interviened on short notice.

The US Army built up as well... the addition of the 11th (Air Assault) Infantry Division and 17th (Airborne) Infantry Division are examples of rapid response forces.

Even factoring these possibilities in - and they are only possibilities - remember the Australians are going to want to retain some (probably the majority) of their troops for home defence and the entire regular New Zealand Army is currently a reinforced Brigade Group (it may have been larger in 1990) - I still think finding the numbers that you're looking for to meet all of those deployments would be a big challenge. Whether we like it or not, the UK is not a Global Superpower and hasn't been for a number of years.

[95th Rifleman]

The two biggest problems with an expansion of the Uk armed forces are money and men.

After WW2 Britain stopped being a dominant power, we steadily lost our empire and our industry and by the 90's had sod all left. Building new factories costs money that the treasury doesn't have, training and equiping new regiments costs money, upgrading the RAF costs shedload and don't get me started on the costs of rebuilding the Royal navy.

Britain is a democracy, how are you going to sell all this to the British people? We where not scared of the reds the way Americans where back in the cold war. We had our own problems with the IRA and public opinion was pretty much along the lines of let the rest of the UN deal with things, why should we get dragged into it?

Manpower is an issue aswell, the 90's where a relatively good time for the UK. The job market was on the up and we'd come out of the recession of the 80's.

[Rainbow Six]

The two biggest problems with an expansion of the Uk armed forces are money and men.

After WW2 Britain stopped being a dominant power, we steadily lost our empire and our industry and by the 90's had sod all left. Building new factories costs money that the treasury doesn't have, training and equiping new regiments costs money, upgrading the RAF costs shedload and don't get me started on the costs of rebuilding the Royal navy.

Britain is a democracy, how are you going to sell all this to the British people? We where not scared of the reds the way Americans where back in the cold war. We had our own problems with the IRA and public opinion was pretty much along the lines of let the rest of the UN deal with things, why should we get dragged into it?

Manpower is an issue aswell, the 90's where a relatively good time for the UK. The job market was on the up and we'd come out of the recession of the 80's.

Completely agree with the above. IMO if you want to get a substantially expanded Army (i.e. more than than a few Battalions) you're going to have to look at some seriously out of the box thinking and / or some significant divergences from the Real World timeline to make it work. Some form of conscription in the early 90's would probably do the job from the point of view of the manpower, but I'm not sure that would be a particularly plausible option without some sort of major World event happening to justify it. Also that wouldn't address the financial issues.

[simonmark6]

When adding Gurkhas to the ORBAT, it would be useful to remember that they are a finite resource. According to my incomplete research, during the 1990s, the following armies had this sort of number of Gurkhas:

UK: c5000
India: c50000
Nepal: c 5000

That's 60000 troops from an ethnic population of 3,500,000 at best. Whilst there is great competition for places in the British Army, about 60 applicants for every position, the supply might run out if there was a massive recruitment drive, even assuming that all 60 applicants were suitable anyway.

Several battalions, maybe even a division's worth of troops, would be possible maybe but after that the recruitment might start dropping off, especially if India was increasing its forces too.

As for finding manpower for other regiments, the UK has a quota of troops from overseas used to fill its ranks. This is about 10%, if this was waived in the early Nineties and the UK had a sort of "Squaddy Windrush", you might find the manpower from the Caribbean, Fiji and several African nations. Again, there are limits to how many would join but it could fill the ranks.

If you went this route, you'd need to skew UK character creation somewhat as between 10 and 20 per cent (maybe more) would have a more exotic background language than a Celtic Fringe one. Other issues could arise depending on where these foreign troops were stationed. In Europe they might be classed as mercenaries by the Soviets and treated badly. In Africa, it might lead to more desertions when the war ground down as African born troops could decide to go home and look after their families.

Elsewhere, foreign troops could be among the most loyal as their unit would be the only home they had left.

[atiff]

Even factoring these possibilities in - and they are only possibilities - remember the Australians are going to want to retain some (probably the majority) of their troops for home defence and the entire regular New Zealand Army is currently a reinforced Brigade Group (it may have been larger in 1990)

For reference about NZ overseas commitments:

In 1991, we contributed very little manpower to the Coalition

In 1994, we contributed one company group to UNPROFOR in the former Yugoslavia (actually placed under British command)

In 2000-2002, we contributed heavily to the mission in East Timor. At peak, there were over 1,000 NZ servicemen and women in East Timor, our largest deployment since Korea. We were with our good Aussie buddies. I remember at the time in NZ it felt like everyone was going and it really stretched resources; many Territorials got called up and sent. This was of course essentially in our own back yard.

Currently, all arms, I think we have about 8,000 active personnel, with around 2,000 reserves. The army has about 4,500 active and almost all of the reserves.

[dude_uk]

It comes down to it now and is it did back then and has done since the end of the second world war: Money. Or Rather Britain's lack of it. Attempting to create further forces in the gap of 1989-1995 which the normal twilight timeline allows is to play with, is quite hard to do.

The suppression of eastern Europe uprising's and the Gulf war might get you a few battalions from a political stand point. But financial reasoning is harder to find. General Hackett in his The Third world war justifies the creation of Britain's II corps by the government not supporting the creation of channel 4.:D

The Sino-Soviet war probably drums up quite a few sales in the arms and aerospace industries and perhaps some more from the middle east from the Israelis and friendly Arabs but would that be enough?

Going with the Canon take on things. A Second Corps for Europe (Thereby a creating an army group) A division for the Far East (Mostly infantry), A brigade for the middle east and then a smattering of a Battalion or lower garrisons in the few remain colonial outposts is about it :(

MARILYN Report

What was this Louie?

[Louied]

In 1988/89 the MOD came out with the MARILYN Report "Manning And Recruitment In The Lean Years of the Nineties" forecaste the forthcoming decline in the 18-22 male demographic in the UK. Between 1990-2000 it was estimated that this demographic group would fall from 2,229,000 in 1990 to 1,788,000 in 2000, about a 19.8 % reduction if my math is correct. The report discussed how the British Army would cope with this and apparently gave some suggestions. I tried to contact the MOD, the NAM, & the PRO for a copy but apparently it's still under the 30 year rule.

[dude_uk]

In 1988/89 the MOD came out with the MARILYN Report "Manning And Recruitment In The Lean Years of the Nineties"

Interesting, I think its mentioned in Antony Beevors Inside the British army. Of course two things happened. The Cold war ended and this reduced the size of the army. and also it turned out that the fears over the lack of baby making in the '70's did not materialise. How much of this was down to immigration or not improving fact checking of birth statistics, I am not sure.

What's Next on the Agenda Louie? You were working on an ORBAT?

[James Langham]

Interesting, I think its mentioned in Antony Beevors Inside the British army. Of course two things happened. The Cold war ended and this reduced the size of the army. and also it turned out that the fears over the lack of baby making in the '70's did not materialise. How much of this was down to immigration or not improving fact checking of birth statistics, I am not sure.

What's Next on the Agenda Louie? You were working on an ORBAT?

Bear in mind the Commonwealth SOldier Programme probably helped - 10% of the British ARmy now come from this.

[Louied]

I've been tardy posting the ORBAT. Hopefully this weekend since I'll be riding out Hurricane Irene I'll have time to send the draft out. I have to thank Rainbow for all his ideas, insight, and overall outstanding help as it fleshed itself out. I am also working on the IRL ORBAT of BAOR for June 1989, with all attached TA units. I've pretty much have everything down just a matter of typing it in. The only part that might still be "in progress" is the RE section. The official history of the RE vol. XII was supposed to be out this year covering 1980-2000 but it was put back to 2012. Also planning on (in the long term) doing a lineage book on TA units from 1908-2008.

[natehale1971]

Does the British Armed Forces still recruit from the Commonwealth nations? not recuirt troops to the Canadian Army, or Austrialian Army or Kenyan Army... but recruit them for the British Army itself?

the reason I am asking, is that we know that the British recruits the Ghurkhas... couldn't the British also be using a similar program to recruit from the Commonwealth states?

Recruits would gain dual citizenship status (Citizenship from their home country and British Citizenship) for their service?

[Brother in Arms]

Rainbowsix wrote:

"Perhaps HSF troops could be issued DPM jackets with OG trousers?"

Peradua wrote:

"and puttees?"

I say bring back puttees they are the shit....They look hard core especially with the DPM uniform. They are way cooler than the gaitors the Royal marines wore during the falklands.

(Sorry thats all I have to add to this thread.)

[Fusilier]

Does the British Armed Forces still recruit from the Commonwealth nations? not recuirt troops to the Canadian Army, or Austrialian Army or Kenyan Army... but recruit them for the British Army itself?

the reason I am asking, is that we know that the British recruits the Ghurkhas... couldn't the British also be using a similar program to recruit from the Commonwealth states?

The recruiting numbers are capped at 10%. Raising that would be difficult.

[natehale1971]

The recruiting numbers are capped at 10%. Raising that would be difficult.

How so? what caused the capping the number at 10%?

So far this is the outline of the OOB of the British Army for what i'm doing. Divisions aren't completely manned... some might only have 2 Brigades and divisional support personnel.

I British Corps (British Army of the Rhine)
- 1st Armoured Division
- 2rd Infantry Division
- 3nd Armoured Division
II British Corps (British Army of the Rhine)
- 4th Armoured Division
- 5th Infantry Division
- 6th Division
III British Corps (British Army of the Thames)
- Home Guard Division (England)
- Home Guard Division (Scotland)
- Home Guard Division (Wales)
- Home Guard Division (Northern Ireland)
IV British Corps (British Army of the Euphrates)
- 7th Division
- 8th Division
V British Corps (British Army of the <>) Asia & Pacific Rim
- 9th Division
VI British Corps (British Army of the Nile) Africa
- 10th Division
VII British Corps (British Army of the Amazon)
- 11th Division
VIII British Corps (British Army of the Danube)
- 12th Division

[Tombot]

Exactly... The Black Winter that saw the Soviet Forces in Eastern Europe opening a massive can of whop-ass ...

That reminded me of something:
(Since were having several british-themed threads right now)

http://www.blackwinter.freeservers.com/

(Did not check the archives on this). I liked that novel, and had some alternate stuff about BAOR, a british recongroup, and so on.
Did any of you read this, and maybe used it for a game somehow ?

I liked the notion of parts of BAOR planning their own "Going Home" from the city of Hamburg in early 2001, and expecting a hostile reception by the british army in southern england, because BAOR didnt retreat early, as ordered before.

[natehale1971]

I loved it. It gave me the inspiration to star myown T2k novella. :)

[Louied]

Agree with Fusilier, not likely to raise the cap in peacetime. I believe the main reasons are that it would seem to be an army of "mercenaries" & it would let the government be more inclined to use the army when the troops & their families are not voters !!!
However once the balloon goes up all bets are off. If you read any of Patrick Delaforce's books you see that the British Army had many other nationalities. IIRC some that spring to mind are an American who enlisted in 1940 that was an Officer in the Hant's by '44. A number of Belgians in Bn.'S of the KRRC & RB. What really struck me was what seemed a whole Recce Plt. Of Eastern Europeans (I forgot which regiment).
As for the Commonwealth Rhodesian, South African, Australian, & New Zealanders served in RAF squadrons. While Irish from the Republic enlisted in their thousands for all 3 services.
Besides remember a couple of years ago when the POW suggested a Sikh regiment but was shot down by the PC crowd.

[Tombot]

I loved it. It gave me the inspiration to star myown T2k novella. :)

Thats cool Nate. When is it done ? Come on man, show it - and bring some of your
art along, as well! (Wanna read more good T2k stuff!)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Does the British Armed Forces still recruit from the Commonwealth nations? not recuirt troops to the Canadian Army, or Austrialian Army or Kenyan Army... but recruit them for the British Army itself?

the reason I am asking, is that we know that the British recruits the Ghurkhas... couldn't the British also be using a similar program to recruit from the Commonwealth states?

Recruits would gain dual citizenship status (Citizenship from their home country and British Citizenship) for their service?

Quick answer: No
The Ghurkas are a special case, it's a hold-over from the days of the British East India Company and just as much a reward for Ghurka loyalty as it is for any military benefit to the UK.

As I understand it, the UK does not actively seek recruits from former British Commonwealth nations but they are not discouraged from applying.
Any personnel recruited from Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Fiji, Kenya, Hong Kong or any other former British Empire nation/protectorate for the British military would join as a member of the British forces but as individuals joining the British military, not as large groups and certainly not as distinct units like the Ghurkas do.

Like New Zealand, Australia would be very unlikely to take over from British Far East and Near East formations. We simply do not have the manpower.
We had less than 20 million people as of 2006 for a standing army of approximately 30,000 personnel with approximately 17,000 reservists. So from that 47,000 you're probably realistically looking at approximately 12,000 actual combat personnel.

Unless there was a direct (and directly Australian) military/political need for Australian forces to relieve British forces in the Far East/Near East, it would be highly unlikely to occur no matter what else was happening on the world stage - we have too small a military with too large a country and too small a population for raising the taxes required for such an expansion.

Recruiting to enlarge the military would face all the problems that are being discussed for the British military in this thread but Australia faces a worse situation because we have a far larger country to cover and one of the longest coastlines of any nation on the planet (we're ranked 7th in the world being beaten by Japan, the Philippines, Russia, Greenland, Indonesia and Canada in the number one position).

A lot of our revenue is raised from exports. Once worldwide trade is impacted by a global war and we can no longer safely make money from shipping goods to other countries, we would have drastically less money available for enlarging our military.

The military could be enlarged by aggressive recruiting but like any Western nation, there are too many needs for personnel in civilian occupations and so the recruit base is going to be very small to start with and funding would have to come from elsewhere in the budget, something certain to make it unpopular with the civilian population. And with less money available we would have even less chance to build up the higher tech side of the military e.g. armoured, air defence and so on.

[Fusilier]

How so? what caused the capping the number at 10%?

In addition to the good answers given above, I think it also has to do with foreign employment. All governments are like this. I mean just the other day I was reading how people were upset that Obama was driving around in custom bus that was manufactured in Canada. Why employ foreigners when people at home live on welfare and can't get a job? I think some criticism would come from that angle.

Checking into it, another reason seems to be people worried about diluting the military, and thus potentially endangering the customs and traditions of the service. It can also be see as embarrassing - "We need foreigners to man our ranks" kinda deal.

And finally, in my experience, the idea of arming foreigners is the last thing a government allows (impossible for people without citizenship to own firearms for example). This mostly applies to civilians, but I think it can extend to the military as well.

I guess my point is, it would be a hard sell by politicians who want to be reelected to deal with the many criticisms of opening up the military to foreigners.

[James Langham]

In addition to the good answers given above, I think it also has to do with foreign employment. All governments are like this. I mean just the other day I was reading how people were upset that Obama was driving around in custom bus that was manufactured in Canada. Why employ foreigners when people at home live on welfare and can't get a job? I think some criticism would come from that angle.

Checking into it, another reason seems to be people worried about diluting the military, and thus potentially endangering the customs and traditions of the service. It can also be see as embarrassing - "We need foreigners to man our ranks" kinda deal.

And finally, in my experience, the idea of arming foreigners is the last thing a government allows (impossible for people without citizenship to own firearms for example). This mostly applies to civilians, but I think it can extend to the military as well.

I guess my point is, it would be a hard sell by politicians who want to be reelected to deal with the many criticisms of opening up the military to foreigners.

I plan to include a large number of Irish nationals that travel north to join the British Army who are in a huge moral dilemma when the South invades the North... Those in the UK are likely to be interred but those in Germany (or further afield) may have the option of still fighting.

[dude_uk]

I've been tardy posting the ORBAT. Hopefully this weekend since I'll be riding out Hurricane Irene I'll have time to send the draft out. I have to thank Rainbow for all his ideas, insight, and overall outstanding help as it fleshed itself out. I am also working on the IRL ORBAT of BAOR for June 1989, with all attached TA units. I've pretty much have everything down just a matter of typing it in. The only part that might still be "in progress" is the RE section. The official history of the RE vol. XII was supposed to be out this year covering 1980-2000 but it was put back to 2012. Also planning on (in the long term) doing a lineage book on TA units from 1908-2008.

A complete UK ORBAT for twilight? Will it Include all those hard to find support units pre options? I shall look forward to this coming bank holiday weekend.:D

I am still working on my complete UK ORBAT for June 1997 amongst other things.Doing the artillery at the moment and trying to work out if i get away without raising any more artillery units.

[James Langham]

A complete UK ORBAT for twilight? Will it Include all those hard to find support units pre options? I shall look forward to this coming bank holiday weekend.:D

I am still working on my complete UK ORBAT for June 1997 amongst other things.Doing the artillery at the moment and trying to work out if i get away without raising any more artillery units.

Great minds think alike, still working on mine...

Currently I have it at January 2001 before I start amalgamating and re-rolling units.

Can anyone see any new niches for units? I have converted some units to NBC and added rehabilitation and demobilization units.

[natehale1971]

With how bad things are... demobilization might not be the best course of action right away. From what i've been told, Regiments in the British Army are drawn from various UK regions. Having these units 'garrisoning' their home town areas might allow for the reconstruction to go much faster with more central planning.

[dude_uk]

Can anyone see any new niches for units? I have converted some units to NBC and added rehabilitation and demobilization units.

Training cadres? Regiments becoming responsible for own their own training?

Certain areas are going to need garrisons.

But of course the main thing once you have pacified all the marauders, outlaws and 'false presidents' is having them helping in the fields to bring the harvest in. Or would the army be exempt to keep morale high?.

[James Langham]

With how bad things are... demobilization might not be the best course of action right away. From what i've been told, Regiments in the British Army are drawn from various UK regions. Having these units 'garrisoning' their home town areas might allow for the reconstruction to go much faster with more central planning.

Being realistic, can the UK afford all of the troops? Certain units are not going to be necessary - electronic warfare, much of the artillery, air defence and heavy artillery for example. Also many service personnel are going to be unfit for service (blinded, missing limbs, etc) - these can be demobilized into jobs they are capable of. Some servicemen/women can also be converted into civil servants.

How many troops do you really need? Until you reach Scotland (and possibly Wales) you are not going to meet significant conventional forces. A better model might be part time soldiers protecting their local area behind your borders with rapid response troops (similar to the late Roman Empire). I would also guess that non-violent methods would be the preferred option for reunification (e.g. trade, bribery (e.g. well if you join us we will need an MP until we can sort elections...), better standards of living). Very much the Roman or ink blot methods of gaining control.

Whilst at the start of the war troops would be very tied to locations, after four years of war this will be FAR less important when assigning troops (compare 1917 and 1944).

It helps that I partially envisage a Roman type demobilization - here's your land now go farm and protect it...

[Rainbow Six]

Great minds think alike, still working on mine...

Currently I have it at January 2001 before I start amalgamating and re-rolling units.

Can anyone see any new niches for units? I have converted some units to NBC and added rehabilitation and demobilization units.

REME and Signals bods could be formed into salvage teams...so could surplus RAF and RN personnel.

Pioneer Corps would probably need to be expanded as well...

[Rainbow Six]

Until you reach Scotland (and possibly Wales) you are not going to meet significant conventional forces...

Unless the Scots and the Welsh form a Celtic alliance and invade England first...:D

[James Langham]

Unless the Scots and the Welsh form a Celtic alliance and invade England first...:D

Being Welsh... :-)

Not enough troops to do it (even with the Welsh having the Gurkha Coy from Brecon - that may confuse a few characters when they meet them!).

[James Langham]

REME and Signals bods could be formed into salvage teams...so could surplus RAF and RN personnel.

Pioneer Corps would probably need to be expanded as well...

There is (or at least was) actually a REME unit with salvage in mind - I have expanded this.

[Rainbow Six]

Being Welsh... :-)

Not enough troops to do it (even with the Welsh having the Gurkha Coy from Brecon - that may confuse a few characters when they meet them!).

Cymru am Byth...;)

[natehale1971]

That's pretty much what i'm talking about... yes you'd move troops from being artillery, or electonic warfare, or what ever... and have them move over to a Home Guard like set up where they would focus the bulk of their time and efforts on rebuilding the country and community.

The 'organization' that the military would be providing would be more along the lines of, "We need to build <insert item here> at <insert location here>, and you and your Home Guard Platoon/Company/Battalion is assigned to make sure that it happens."



Being realistic, can the UK afford all of the troops? Certain units are not going to be necessary - electronic warfare, much of the artillery, air defence and heavy artillery for example. Also many service personnel are going to be unfit for service (blinded, missing limbs, etc) - these can be demobilized into jobs they are capable of. Some servicemen/women can also be converted into civil servants.

How many troops do you really need? Until you reach Scotland (and possibly Wales) you are not going to meet significant conventional forces. A better model might be part time soldiers protecting their local area behind your borders with rapid response troops (similar to the late Roman Empire). I would also guess that non-violent methods would be the preferred option for reunification (e.g. trade, bribery (e.g. well if you join us we will need an MP until we can sort elections...), better standards of living). Very much the Roman or ink blot methods of gaining control.

Whilst at the start of the war troops would be very tied to locations, after four years of war this will be FAR less important when assigning troops (compare 1917 and 1944).

It helps that I partially envisage a Roman type demobilization - here's your land now go farm and protect it...

[James Langham]

The Home Service Force (HSF) would fill the role of the Home Guard. In the event of a major War it would probably be expanded and recruitement criteria probably relaxed to include those who didn't have prior military service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Service_Force

Here is the list of HSF Companies (and the odd platoon) I have been able to find complete with locations where I have found these. Note that the plan was for every TA Battalion or equivalent to form a HSF Coy.

HSF
E (HSF) (Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry) Squadron The Royal Wessex Yeomanry – Old Sarum
D (HSF) The Queen's Own Mercian Yeomanry - Telford
1 Company, Honourable Artillery Company – London
2 Company, Honourable Artillery Company – London
A (HSF) Battery, 103 Air Defence Regiment, Royal Artillery (V) – Liverpool, St Helens, Widnes)
F Company, 1 52nd Lowland Volunteers – Ayr – to RAS
G Company, 1 52nd Lowland Volunteers – Dumfries – to RAS
5 Company, 2 52nd Lowland Volunteers – Edinburgh – to RAS
Z Company, 1 51st Highland Volunteers – Perth/Kirkaldy/Dundee – to RAS
Y Company, 2nd 51st Highland Volunteers – Elgin/Inverness/Stornowray/Wick/Kirkwall – to RAS
X Company, 2nd 51st Highland Volunteers – Aberdeen/Lerwick/Peterhead/Laurencekirk – to RAS
W Company, 3rd 51st Highland Volunteers – Stirling/Dumbarton/Grangemouth – to RAS
St Lucia Company, 6th Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (Newcastle upon Tyne)
E (HSF) Company, 4th (V) Battalion King's Own Royal Border Regiment
E (HSF) Company, 5th/8th Battalion The Kings Regiment
H (York and Lancaster) (HSF) Company 4th Battalion the Yorkshire Volunteers – Doncaster/Rotherham/Barnsley
G (HSF) Company 4th (V) Battalion The Devonshire and Dorset Regiment (1st Rifle Volunteers)- Plymouth
E (HSF) Company, 2nd The Wessex Regiment (Rifle Volunteers) – Reading/Maidenhead/Winchester/Portsmouth
E (HSF) Company, 3 (V) Battalion the Royal Regiment of Wales– Cardiff/Brecon - to Welsh government
F (Nottinghamshire HSF) Company, 3rd (V) Battalion, The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment –
Worksop/Mansfield/Beeston
G (Derbyshire HSF) Company, 3rd (V) Battalion, The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment – Derby/Chesterfield
E (HSF) Company, 6th (Somerset and Cornwall) Battalion, The Light Infantry (V) – Bath
F (HSF) Company, 6th (Somerset and Cornwall) Battalion, The Light Infantry (V) – Truro
E (HSF) Company, 7th (Durham) Battalion, The Light Infantry (V) – Bishop/Auckland/Hordon/Washington
348 Signal Squadron (HSF) Inns of Court and City Yeomanry (The Devils' Own)
18 Platoon, (HSF) 6 Coy, 5th (V) Battalion, Royal Anglian Regiment
218 (HSF) Squadron, Royal Corps of Transport (Hull)
300 (HSF) Squadron, Royal Corps of Transport (East Yorkshire)
A (HSF) Bty 103 AD Regiment, Royal Artillery (V)
5 Coy (HSF) 10th (V) Battalion, The Parachute Regiment
13 Platoon, (HSF) H Coy, 3rd Battalion Yorkshire Volunteers
(HFS) 4th (V) Battalion, Royal Green Jackets
(HFS) 5th (V) Battalion, Royal Green Jackets
(HFS) 6th (V) Battalion, Royal Green Jackets
(HFS) 7th (V) Battalion, Royal Green Jackets

Edit - Ignore any references to RAS above, that's from my campaign.

[natehale1971]

okay...

looking at the Home Service Force in my campaign... that would make up the bulk of the "British Army of the Thames" who'd be running training centres and the like. Having the HSF (or 'Home Guard' as many would be calling them) being made up of disabled or aged veterans who'd be at their core. One of the ideas I had for the Home Guard was that they would be recruiting single parents who are of draft age.

Would this actually give a reason for the recall orders for the British Army of the Rhine when things get out of hand back home.

with what you've already shared with me, the growth of the British Army before the start of the Euro-Soviet War would have been into the Territorial Army, and with some new battalions of Ghurkas. But what would it take for the government to raise the cap on the the recuirtment of commonwealth nationals into the British Army from 10% to 15-20% during the years before the outbreak of the Euro-Soviet War?

Esp. with the growth of threats around the globe... and the British Armed Forces being asked by the UN to provide Peacekeepers, would this be something that would cause people to join the British Army? or kind of make them not want to join?

[James Langham]

okay...

looking at the Home Service Force in my campaign... that would make up the bulk of the "British Army of the Thames" who'd be running training centres and the like. Having the HSF (or 'Home Guard' as many would be calling them) being made up of disabled or aged veterans who'd be at their core. One of the ideas I had for the Home Guard was that they would be recruiting single parents who are of draft age.

Would this actually give a reason for the recall orders for the British Army of the Rhine when things get out of hand back home.

with what you've already shared with me, the growth of the British Army before the start of the Euro-Soviet War would have been into the Territorial Army, and with some new battalions of Ghurkas. But what would it take for the government to raise the cap on the the recuirtment of commonwealth nationals into the British Army from 10% to 15-20% during the years before the outbreak of the Euro-Soviet War?

Esp. with the growth of threats around the globe... and the British Armed Forces being asked by the UN to provide Peacekeepers, would this be something that would cause people to join the British Army? or kind of make them not want to join?

Bear in mind that in the UK at present with a major war going on recruitment is at a peak. It seems as if a war results in increased volunteers in the UK. IRL Army popularity started to rise from a low in the 1970s with the Falklands in 1982 and has increased ever since with each war. The TA currently has it's best ever public opinion as people now see it as no longer a separate "Dad;s Army" or drinking club but a vital part of the now integrated army. The major lowering of the Irish security threat has also resulted in a higher profile as there is less requirement to change out of uniform. It is this popularity that has fueled recruiting.

[simonmark6]

Being Welsh... :-)

Not enough troops to do it (even with the Welsh having the Gurkha Coy from Brecon - that may confuse a few characters when they meet them!).

Agreed, most people see the Welsh nation in Tw2K as being ultra-isolationist and thus fairly unlikely to launch an invasion of its own. That said, I'd expect them to have occupied a defensive line that included the Severn and the Dee (I think that's the river that runs next to Chester) as this gives them a solid barrier to refugees for the majority of the border. If they did this, they'd only have an open land pass of about 50km to defend rather than 300+.

Given that border and the reconstruction needed in South Wales, the WVNA is going to be spread very thinly and not attacking anyone in the foreseeable future.

[Rainbow Six]

Sorry, I was being a little tongue in cheek last night...I wouldn't expect the Welsh (or the Scots) to come charging over the border either...

[simonmark6]

No, it would be an interesting scenario, but unlikely. If the situation persisted for enough years for the Scots to get really organised however, I bet they'd be tempted to try for a land grab on the North of England.

[Rainbow Six]

That's been tried before! It never ends well!!!! :D

Seriously, I think it would take years for Scottish separatists to be in any position to be a serious threat to England and by that time I'd imagine the entire BAOR would be back in the UK and working on restoring HMG's control. I don't see the Scots being able to take on the BAOR and win, so we'd lose. Again. ;)

With regard to Wales though, I certainly agree that there could be some WNVA troops in England for the reasons that you mentioned...in my alternative piece I placed a detachment of Welsh troops in Oswestry in Shropshire.

[simonmark6]

Oh, yes!

I'd agree entirely but it never stopped people before. I was also envisaging a time several years into the future, long after the BAOR came back. On the whole, once the BAOR return England will start to recover but the unit can only do so much at a time.

If I was an aggressive Scottish or Welsh leader that wanted to destabilize England I'd either be trying to develop or trade for cheap anti-tank weapons to distribute like sweeties to the seccesionists(sp?)in England, the more heavy kit they take out, the less left to reassert claims on the Celtic Fringe.

The most likely result though is a peaceful rejoining of the union with greater powers of self-determination for Scotland and Wales.

[Rainbow Six]

If I was an aggressive Scottish or Welsh leader that wanted to destabilize England I'd either be trying to develop or trade for cheap anti-tank weapons to distribute like sweeties to the seccesionists(sp?)in England, the more heavy kit they take out, the less left to reassert claims on the Celtic Fringe.

That's a really good point which had never occurred to me before...

The most likely result though is a peaceful rejoining of the union with greater powers of self-determination for Scotland and Wales.

Totally agree.

[James Langham]

No, it would be an interesting scenario, but unlikely. If the situation persisted for enough years for the Scots to get really organised however, I bet they'd be tempted to try for a land grab on the North of England.

A more crafty plan would be inviting the independent towns on the border to come over and gradually spread (Berwick on Tweed would be a prime candidate).

[simonmark6]

Might work although the deep rooted history of border clashes in the Cheviots might work against it. It would depend on what the Scottish Government had to offer, sometimes sheer bloody mindedness trumps common sense, sadly.

[Top-Break]

I would expect the Home Service Force to be organised into regional defence regiments along the same lines as the Ulster Defense Regiment.

England Defense Regiment

Wales Defense Regiment

Scotland Defense Regiment

Likewise, I would also expect to see the consolidation of various police departments into paramilitary "Constabularies" along the lines of the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

Royal English Costabulary

Royal Welsh Constabulary

Royal Scottish Constabulary

Just a thought.

[natehale1971]

Thank you! i'll definately be using that...

This is what i have so far for the British OOB for my campaign. Any suggestions for what battalions would go where?

British Forces Europe
-1st UK Army (British Army of the Danube): Southern Europe/Balkans
--VIII UK Corps
---12th Division
---13th Division
-2nd UK Army (British Army of the Rhine): Northern Europe
--I UK Corps
---1st Armoured Division
---3rd Mechanized Division
--II UK Corps
---2nd Infantry Division
---4th Armorured Division
-3rd UK Army (British Army of the Thames):
--III UK Corps
---HSF Division (England)
----England Defense Regiment
----Royal English Constabulary
--HSF Division (Scotland)
----Scotland Defense Regiment
----Royal Scottish Constabulary
--HSF Division (Northern Ireland)
----Ulster Defense Regiment
----Royal Ulster Constabulary
-HSF Division (Wales)
----Wales Defense Regiment
----Royal Welsh Constabulary
British Forces Americas
-6th UK Army (British Army of the Amazon): Central & South America
--VII UK Corps
---10th Infantry Division
British Forces Africa
-5th UK Army (British Army of the Nile): Africa
--VI UK Corps
---8th Armoured Division
---7th Infantry Division
British Forces Far East
-7th UK Army (British Army of the Pearl): Asia & the Pacific Rim
--V UK Corps
---9th Infantry Division
British Forces Near East
-8th UK Army (British Army of the Euphrates): The Middle East
--IV UK Corps
---11th Armoured Division 'The Black Bull'
---6th Infantry Division
British Forces Gibraltar
British Forces Hong Kong
British Forces Brunei
British Forces Cyprus
-Sovereign Base Area Akrotiri
-Sovereign Base Area Dhekelia
British Forces Falkland Islands
British Forces Caribbean

[Rainbow Six]

This is what i have so far for the British OOB for my campaign. Any suggestions for what battalions would go where?

The British Army currently operates a system called "Arms -Plot" under which Battalions constantly move around between different postings after a set period of time (usually two - three years, but can be shorter or longer), so in theory you can more or less have any Battalion assigned anywhere you please. I think pretty much the only requirement would probably be to have several Guards battalions based in London.

For example, 1st Battalion, Royal Regiment of Fusilers (to pick a random Battalion) could spend three years in Germany as armoured infantry then redploy to Cyprus for two years in a light infantry role then go to Northern Ireland, etc, etc.

Armoured and Artillery Regiments also rotate, albeit to a lesser extent as there were fewer places they were deployed to.

(It should be noted that Arms-Plot has been deemed to be an inefficient process, so it is in the process of being phased out).

[RN7]

Does the British Armed Forces still recruit from the Commonwealth nations? not recuirt troops to the Canadian Army, or Austrialian Army or Kenyan Army... but recruit them for the British Army itself?

the reason I am asking, is that we know that the British recruits the Ghurkhas... couldn't the British also be using a similar program to recruit from the Commonwealth states?

Recruits would gain dual citizenship status (Citizenship from their home country and British Citizenship) for their service?

Until recently low unemployment in Britain led to the British armed forces, and the army in particular, having difficulty in meeting its recruitment targets. The current economic problems that the UK and the rest of the western world is having has probably made a career in the British Army a more attractive offer for many young Britons.

As recently as 2008 volunteers from the Commonwealth accounted for nearly 7% of the British Army's manpower, with soldiers from 42 different countries represented in the Army. The Gurkhas are the largest source, but there are also many volunteers from Fiji, Jamaica and some African countries. There are also recruits from developed Commonwealth countries such as Australia, Canada, NZ and South Africa, especially in the special forces community. The Gibraltar Regiment also recruits from the local population, and there are still many Irish recruits from south of the border in the British Army's Irish units and throughout the British Army and the other services.

[natehale1971]

Yeah. whenever unemployment rates rises... you see the youth joining the armed forces because it's the only open 'starting jobs' that they think they will be able to find. While there is some evidence of that... it's at times to just be the 'easiest' road that they would see.

The truth of the matter is that they can create their own business if they are enterprising enough... i've seen it first hand. My dad went from doing six different part time jobs (and running himself into the ground) to being a General Contractor who built an amazing house on the side of a mountain that could survive pretty much anything that happened.

Using a rise in unemployment rates can definately be tied into the timeline i'm working on... Even with the UK producing weapons and equipment for many of the Commonwealth nations around the globe, unemployment outside of the defense and related industres could easily push men and women into the armed forces.