Pirates of the Visutula

[Judge Holden]

I've finally wrangled my players into accepting Old Adam's proposal. Problem is I grew up playing this game when I was very young and probably having some very foolish notions of what can or cannot be done on the ol Wisla Krolowa in 'real life'.

So, my questions are:
Can I tow an amphibious vehicle? I know the barge gets pushed, but could you tow an amphibious vehicle behind the tug? Specifically the Canadian forces Cougar fighting vehicle (codename: MILF)
What can be mounted on the barge, large gun/vehicle wise?
Could you build a raised guard tower like emplacement on the barge?
How many tons of sheet metal can you armor up the bridge wheelhouse with before it just rolls over and sinks?

[Cdnwolf]

Ohhh great another Canuck...

To help you visualize the tug and the barge check out this thread...

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=3990

[Targan]

Steel-hulled tugs have a lot of mass below the waterline. I'm wildly speculating but I reckon you could easily have 10% of a tug's mass added to the upper superstructure without causing instability. In addition, the Wisla Krolowa is operating on a river, not the open ocean, so there's not much in the way of swell to have to deal with.

[kcdusk]

I'd say preparing the barge and tugs for travel down this hostile river environment is half the fun of the module!

What kind of ideas do the players have? Can they resource them in terms of finding the items, transporting them back, building modifications, holding back local scavengers, bartering for hard to get items, and any other timing factors (is the river rising or falling? is there an enemy force on the way that means the PCs will need to prioritise what 3 jobs get done ...).

[Jason]

Ahhh yes, outfitting the Tug is fun. I remember my players freaking out when they realized there were 20k rounds for the pair of Dshk MG's. There was a lot of recon by fire in that campaign.

I also remember a group that mounted a 120mm mortar on the forward deck because they struggled to get anything else. One of the first encounters where the tug takes fire from the shore and a character with low heavy weapons skill took a ranging shot on a sandbagged bunker and rolled a 1 (v2.2) Bullseye! Good times.

[Adm.Lee]

I'd think you could tow a Cougar, but I doubt that any vehicle is watertight over a long time, and it would need bailed or pumped out often.

I'm no expert, but I'm sure a vehicle could be put into a river barge, using ramps or a crane. I'm not so certain about it being able to fire over the sides, but if you've got the timber, you could build a platform in the barge to lift the vehicle high enough.

Per wikipedia: "Barges are used today for low-value bulk items, as the cost of hauling goods by barge is very low. Barges are also used for very heavy or bulky items; a typical barge measures 195 by 35 feet (59.4 m × 10.6 m), and can carry up to about 1500 tons of cargo."

When I ran this mod a long time ago, one of my parties was babying an M1, and I let them move it into the barge. (The main gun had no ammo, but the turret-top MGs were usable, and the threat of the main gun was certainly useful.)

Again, with timber and sandbags or scrap metal (plenty of that in Nowy Huta?), I think you could build a fortification on a deck on the barge.

[Raellus]

When I ran P.o.V., my players got their hands on a Vasilek automortar. It proved to be the ideal heavy weapon for the tug. It was compact enough that it could be mounted either fore or aft (or placed on the barge)- my group placed it on the foredeck. It's not too big and recoil isn't going to damage the tug's deck. It works in both direct and indirect fire modes. It can be fed from magazines or drop fed like a conventional mortar and it uses relatively common 82mm ammo. With HEDP rounds, it can defeat light armor, and WP rounds are great for creating an instant smokescreen or setting stuff on fire.

IMHO, the module gives the PCs way too much 12.7mm ammo. My group steamed all the way from Krakow to the Baltic and never came close to running out, even though I'd occassionally "lose" rounds or inflate the round count after a firefight. I highly recommend scaling it way back.

Another nice little weapon system for the tug is an AGL like the Soviet AGS-17 Plamya (30mm) or American Mk.-19.

Regarding the Cougar, I would think that towing it would swamp it. You've got a choppy wake from the tug's screws and dragging the APC at high speeds might run its nose down, making the swamping problem worse.

[kato13]

Regarding the Cougar, I would think that towing it would swamp it. You've got a choppy wake from the tug's screws and dragging the APC at high speeds might run its nose down, making the swamping problem worse.

The cougar should have sump pumps (the LAV-25 which is based on the chassis has 2), but running them would either require the engine to be running, or drain the battery. The barge could hold it easily, so I agree with the others, it should probably go there.

Offloading it without a crane might be problematic due to weight distribution issues. Might want to do that only when run aground or in very shallow waters.

It is so funny where this games takes me research wise. When the week started the likelihood that I would be reading Barge Stability documents from New Zealand was probably pretty small ;)

http://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/Publications-and-forms/Commercial-operations/Shipping-safety/Barge-stability-guidelines.pdf

[Judge Holden]

Thanks for the help guys, I hadn't thought about the fact that the Cougar would get swamped or that amphibious vehicles likely leak a bit (this one has had an RPG through the side already so the patch job probably isn't the finest).

Thanks for the PDF on Barge Stability as well, it gives me some ideas for what might happen in a rainstorm since the barge is only partially covered with wood, and I imagine it must get fairly waterlogged when the rain starts to come down unless the Team thinks of putting pumps or something on it to drain the water.

While looking at weapon systems I came across the 30mm ASP which some light internet research revealed is a gas operated weapon. What does this entail -what type of gas does it use? I'm sure its' not gasoline, so I'm imagining metal 'bottles' like a welder uses. How often would you have to top these off?
http://www.combatreform.org/asp30britisharmydismounted.jpg

[AcesandEights]

Maybe just a gas-operated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas-operated) reload via piston.

This 30mm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_mm_automatic_cannon_2A42#Platforms) is gas-operated in such a fashion, as far as I can tell. It may even be a vehicle mounted relative of your ASP 30mm.

[Raellus]

Right, gas-operated means that the gasses from the discharging ammunition are used to drive the function, as is the case with many automatic weapons. No external fuel source (other than fresh cartridges) is necessary.

[Cdnwolf]

;) Its Bean powered!!

[Targan]

IMHO, the module gives the PCs way too much 12.7mm ammo. My group steamed all the way from Krakow to the Baltic and never came close to running out, even though I'd occassionally "lose" rounds or inflate the round count after a firefight. I highly recommend scaling it way back.

I'd happily stick with the ammo count described in the module, but it's the Twilight War right? So one in every three or two in every three rounds fails to fire. Then watch the fun as the players try to decide which character/s gets the fun job of visually inspecting each of those 20,000 rounds and delinking the ones they think are duds. And even then there's no guarantee that they won't have constant misfires during every firefight. Good times.

While looking at weapon systems I came across the 30mm ASP which some light internet research revealed is a gas operated weapon. What does this entail -what type of gas does it use? I'm sure it's not gasoline, so I'm imagining metal 'bottles' like a welder uses.

This is how gas operated firearms work: Gas-operated reloading. We also have at least one gunsmith on this forum who I'm sure is thoroughly well versed in gas operated firearms.

I've always found the American use of the word "gas" to describe petrol as being kind of odd. Petrol's not even a gas when it's burned in an internal combustion engine, it's a fine mist. I guess it must have originally been an abbreviation of "gasoline". Here in Australia if you have a vehicle that needs "gas" it would be one that runs on LPG or CNG. Way to go mangling a perfectly good language, Americans! :D

[Bullet Magnet]

Way to go mangling a perfectly good language, Americans! :D

Hey, don't give us all the credit! You people outside the States already think we're too cocky, so why add to it? ;) After all, we're just part of a "global community" now, so we must all share in this.

[kato13]

I've always found the American use of the word "gas" to describe petrol as being kind of odd. Petrol's not even a gas when it's burned in an internal combustion engine, it's a fine mist. I guess it must have originally been an abbreviation of "gasoline".
....

Way to go mangling a perfectly good language, Americans!

Actually it might be more proper to blame the brits (at least for the name gasoline)

Gasolene was first used in an advert in the British newspaper, the Hampshire Telegraph & Sussex Chronicle in 1863. The first use of gasoline to be found in America is in an 1864 Act of Congress which declared a tax on the oil.

it looks like a corruption of Cazeline named after British importer John Cassell. A Dublin shopowner had a counterfeit version named the same, which when challenged he added a slash to the C (making it a G)

http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2012/04/the-origin-of-gasoline/

[Judge Holden]

Since I need to play the role of Old Adam: which is more logical for me? - to press on through the night and try to run the river 24 hours a day using spotlights and/or nightvision goggles and IR spotlights?, or do I play it safe and only travel during daylight?

If I only travel in the daytime do I try to stop at towns for the night, or do I park the tug and barge somewhere midstream and send ashore a landing party to hunt and such? Do I park it ashore for the night?

Of course all decisions are up the the PCs its their plans that will decide what happens - I just want to be able to provide some logical suggestions from that salty dog Old Adam.

[Jason]

Old Adam knows the river like the back of his hand, so I imagine he has some idea where it is safe to go ashore as opposed to sleeping midstream. I would not imagine that Adam would approve of trying to sail at night, which seems very irresponsible.

[Raellus]

Is wrecking the tug worth getting to Warsaw quicker? That's the decision that you'll have to make as Adam.

Travelling at night is going to be more dangerous. It'll be harder to spot obstacles. Using the tug's lights to mitigate this danger is going to make her a conspicuous target in the dark, another risk to consider. NVGs are a compromise, but if you've ever used them, you'll know depth and peripheral vision are somewhat compromised making it difficult to pick out obstacles. The monochrome sight picture presented by most military NVGs also makes it difficult to pick out subtle differences in terrain. I would think that this would be even more pronounced for moving water. And then there's the issue of eye strain from prolonged usage of NVGs. As a GM, I would increase the frequency of observation checks and random obstacle rolls if/when the party travelled at night. My players made the decision fairly early on not to travel far or fast at night.

The next major decision you need to make is what the local conditions are in the regions that the tug will be passing through. I tried to mix it up. A few areas were relatively safe, others were empty, many were controlled by enemy forces or bandits, some were home to x factor groups- neither obviously friendly nor openly hostile to the PCs. This created a lot of variety and kept things unpredictable which, to my mind is a good thing. I think that my players mostly enjoyed it as well. This will take some work on your part. The module provides some decent details on the game world between Krakow and Warsaw, but since I knew that a lot of my players had already played P.o.t.V., I made some minor but significant changes to the module materials in order to keep my campaign fresh and suspenseful.

To do determine how much Adam knows about local conditions, you'll have to decide how often Adam has travelled the Vistula in the months leading up to the adventure. If it's been a few weeks or months since his last trip, local conditions could have changed. A town that used to be safe & friendly might not be overrun by vicious marauders. When I played Adam, he hadn't travelled the river since he'd lost his last tug, a period of (IIRC) a few months. He could give the PCs intel, but it was by no means fresh. This gave the players some leads, but they still had to proceed with caution lest circumstances had changed. I played Adam as cautious and tried not to pull any blatant bait and switch moves on my group.

Good luck and have fun.

[Targan]

Since I need to play the role of Old Adam: which is more logical for me? - to press on through the night and try to run the river 24 hours a day using spotlights and/or nightvision goggles and IR spotlights?, or do I play it safe and only travel during daylight?

If I only travel in the daytime do I try to stop at towns for the night, or do I park the tug and barge somewhere midstream and send ashore a landing party to hunt and such? Do I park it ashore for the night?

I'd have a small boat scouting ahead of the tug wherever possible, maybe not all the time in the day but definitely at night if travel after dark was required.

[Judge Holden]

Sorry about the sizing issues on these deckplans im on a tablet and im kinda rusty.
This is what the team came up with. They traded a T80 tank, a flatbed tractor trailer, a troop truck and a nearly empty diesel tanker truck. All the vehicles were stolen from the Army of Silesia.
The chopper is also stolen, obviously from Krakow but it only has fumes left in the tanks.

Question - can an anti tank missile target the tug, or better yet the barge emplacements? Most of my knowlege comes from BF3 so i picture it needing to lock onto a specific target profile and water might mess this up?

[rcaf_777]

Can you post a bigger image?

[Raellus]

Question - can an anti tank missile target the tug, or better yet the barge emplacements? Most of my knowlege comes from BF3 so i picture it needing to lock onto a specific target profile and water might mess this up?

Absolutely. Wire-guided systems like the TOW, MILAN, SPIGOT, etc. require the missile to be steered to the target by the operator. All he/she has to do is keep the tug in the crosshairs and the missile will do the rest. Laser-guided systems too. Fire and forget ATGMs simply require the operator to lock on to the target, moving or stationary. If a Javelin can track a tank, it can track a river tugboat.

[Judge Holden]

Can you post a bigger image?
here we go

[Cdnwolf]

One little problem with your setup...

The barge is essentially a steel shell divided into four compartments
by bulkheads. One end is covered by wooden planking,
but most of the deck material has long since been stripped
by scavengers searching for firewood

If you remove the bulkhead you will weaken the hull structure of the barge.

I am wondering since the ZU-23-2 weighs 2,094 lbs. would that force down the front end of the barge too much when it is being pushed?

[dragoon500ly]

A 120mm mortar on the forecastle :naughty:

Just a couple of problems....and the big one is recoil!

Hull and deck plating on a civilian ship is simply not that thick, more along the lines of maybe 1/2-inch thickness...at most. It simply cannot handle the recoil forces of a major caliber weapon without a lot of reinforcement of the deck and hull structure.

[Rockwolf66]

While looking at weapon systems I came across the 30mm ASP which some light internet research revealed is a gas operated weapon. What does this entail -what type of gas does it use? I'm sure its' not gasoline, so I'm imagining metal 'bottles' like a welder uses. How often would you have to top these off?
http://www.combatreform.org/asp30britisharmydismounted.jpg

Well here is more data on it.

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3643.html

[Cdnwolf]

A 120mm mortar on the forecastle :naughty:

Just a couple of problems....and the big one is recoil!

Hull and deck plating on a civilian ship is simply not that thick, more along the lines of maybe 1/2-inch thickness...at most. It simply cannot handle the recoil forces of a major caliber weapon without a lot of reinforcement of the deck and hull structure.

What if he uses a man portable one? Less accurate of course... and isn't the power of the recoil in a mortar expended outward?

[Targan]

Well here is more data on it.

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3643.html

And it needs to be remembered that although IRL the ASP-30 wasn't adopted as a standard NATO weapon, it was in the T2K timeline, at least by the USMC in V1. Personally I think it's a terrific weapon system and I'm surprised it didn't enter widespread use.

[rcaf_777]

While looking at weapon systems I came across the 30mm ASP which some light internet research revealed is a gas operated weapon. What does this entail -what type of gas does it use? I'm sure its' not gasoline, so I'm imagining metal 'bottles' like a welder uses. How often would you have to top these off?

In case of weapon systems the term "gas operated" refrers to how the weapons cycles through a belt of ammo. Some large guns like the M2 50 Cal uses recoil, ie the force of round going off to cycle the next round. In this case gas gas operate refere to gases cause by the round firing are used to force the bolt back and chamber another round. This is how most modern assault rilfes work.

Have cleaned guns that just recoil and gas recoil is perfered as gas operated tend to leave a lot of carbon on the parts which may lead to jamming.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

One little problem with your setup...

The barge is essentially a steel shell divided into four compartments
by bulkheads. One end is covered by wooden planking,
but most of the deck material has long since been stripped
by scavengers searching for firewood

If you remove the bulkhead you will weaken the hull structure of the barge.

I am wondering since the ZU-23-2 weighs 2,094 lbs. would that force down the front end of the barge too much when it is being pushed?

Barges are quite buoyant so in regards to the 1000 or so kilograms of the ZSU-23-2, it's not enough weight to push the front down. You can see these sorts of river barges in Europe with cranes, excavators or other plant machinery (many of them weigh in excess of 15,000kg) parked at one end with little impact on the buoyancy of the barge.

[dragoon500ly]

Its the old equal and opposite reaction thing. The force necessary to push a mortar bomb out 3-4,000 meters results in the baseplate being punched in to the ground.

I've witnessed the results of a 4.2-inch mortar crew firing a chain of 30 bombs...and then requiring the crew about an hour of digging to recover the baseplate when everything was finished.

Thoses decks are thin, unless there is major reinforcement, it would not take a large number of rounds to starting bending the plates!

[Judge Holden]

Okay, thanks for the info on recoil - i was just going with the 800 kg weapon limit on the forward hatch.
What about the Vasilek 82mm on the back hatch, is that a no go as well?

The chopper is nuzzled down with the main body in between bulkheads and the tail boom and folded back blades hang over into the next one.
Stacked up a ton of wood on either side, covered it up with camo tarp.

The zu 23-2 is permanently mounted in a pt boat type open turret.

[simonmark6]

A 120mm mortar might be workable with some jury-rigging. For instance:
The CWS experimented with mortars mounted on landing craft, including the LCIs (Landing Craft Infantry) and LCTs (Landing Craft Tank). It took the view that mortars could support an amphibious assault in the crucial period of an invasion, after the naval and air bombardment let up so that troops could land. Mortars could not be placed directly on the bottom of landing craft since there was no way to keep the recoil from kicking mortars backward when the piece was fired. In addition, the terrific pounding might damage the bottom of the vessel. Technicians rigged an oblong wooden frame, filled with a mixture of sand and sawdust, on the floor of the craft. A thick slab of wood (several sheets of plywood) grooved to take the bottom Y-spade of the baseplate, sat on top of the sand-sawdust filling. The Amphibious Training Command, Camp Carabelle, Florida, to which CWS sent the firing platform, saw the utility of the device and asked the service to design a standard model. [Vol. II, pp. 136-7]

This passage talks about mounting 4.2 inch mortars on Higgins Boats. Such a rig could be used to mount a 120mm mortar on the deck. There should be lots of bracing below decks as she's an ice-breaker and will have lots of reinforcements.

[ChalkLine]

Wisla Kralowa - Using Bunker Fuel

As many of you may know the use of coal/wood for the Vistula Queen has never sat well with me. I grew up among merchant seamen and when I chatted about that vessel's conversion system the general consensus of the engineers and shipwrights I talked to was "it would be easier to build a new vessel".

However, many soviet-era ships used what we call here in Australia "bunker fuel". Bunker fuel is a heavy very low grade oil from the very bottom of the fuel distillation process. It's of no use to vehicles smaller than a locomotive, you can't run a tank or truck on it. It needs to be heated up to 65–120 °C (149–248 °F) to be used and at cold temperatures it congeals into a kludgey, tarry goo. It was used in may places, primarily heavy industry and power generation. It's also extremely polluting which is why it's been largely phased out in many places but it still soldiers on in Russia for instance. It's notoriously horrid stuff to deal with and gets everywhere when being handled, which of course adds to the notorious "Post Apocalyptic Suck".

Now, rather than just brewing up fuel or cutting down trees having a heavy fuel oil used for the Vistula Queen actually adds to the game rather than takes away from it. Limiting options isn't such a bad thing as long as the GM let's the players have multiple choices. So rather than just blithely sailing down the Wisla the players now have to seek out sources of fuel for the tug giving the GM ready-made hooks for scenarios. Looting deserted towns is fun and crawling through abandoned factories or power plants (coal power plants use bunker fuel to get the combustion going) lets the players meet different situations than the usual 'settlement-with-a-problem' or armed mooks.

First off the players are going to need intel. Either the NPCs can have prior knowledge of the area or the PCs can interact with NPCs while scouting. Having one or two Boghammars/gunboats snooping along the river lets the PCs do this. Then they find out if the fuel is either on the river or inland. If on the river the PCs can simply clear the location, secure the resource and then bring the tug up to pump the fuel aboard after heating it.
If it's inland this then requires a dedicated tanker, and I'd be inclined to have them search out a tanker-trailer before leaving. A work truck towing this trailer would be a useful utility vehicle for the game and the truck could come in handy if the players also need to do any other repair, rebuilding or construction jobs in the game (and they should!)
Remember this stuff needs heating before it can be pumped out and recovered and the area it is found in may need repair or rebuilding before it can be heated up. This not only allows more encounters while this noisy process is undertaken but also allows the PCs to interact a bit with the environment such as scrounging.

This fuel gives the GM a little bit more narrative control. The PCs can have a hard limit put on their mobility, the GM can add a little tension as fuel stocks run low and it also forces the PCs to get out and look around more. A whole micro-campaign can be built just finding a good amount of fuel that opens up movement.

Here's some ideas to finish up with:
- Some NPC group has recognised the fuel's worth and has already recovered it when the PCs arrive to secure it. They can trade, negotiate or secure the fuel via violence/stealth.
- The facility storing the fuel has suffered an airstrike and is dangerous because of contamination, hazardous ruins, unexploded ordnance or a combination of these things. The PCs must deal with the dangers using their skills.
- A fuel source is now being used by a community of civilians and their militia and they are planning to use the fuel to kickstart a bit of light industry and at the very least for heating during the upcoming bitter winter. Who's need is greater?
- The PCs find some fuel but it is contaminated and requires a specialist chemist, an engineer and specialist distilling gear to clean.
- An NPC group is also running a ship and needs the same fuel, they might be in a race with the players to secure stocks. When the PCs negotiate somewhere this group might attack or try and outbid the PCs, if the PCs are too strong they might tip off nearby OPFOR units to the PC's presence. This group can be fleshed out and be great recurring rivals. Maybe some times they come to the player's aid if the player's are outmatched in exchange for sharing?

[rcaf_777]

Pretty sure it can also be used as heating oil?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_oil

Which means is would in more demand thank you might think

[wolffhound79]

this thread help me. Thank you guys.

[rcaf_777]

What the tug and barge could be too