Well we had less kit in the 90's mate!

No grenadiers as the GL36 didn't come into service till the Afghan war.

All we had where the L85, L86 and Gimpy along with the LAW80 and Milan for anti-tank work.

So would the Canadians and ANZACS send their troops as full Brigdes or Divisions as their Expeditiationary Forces who'd be used as full commands of their own?

As i said earilier I was thinking of African Rifles being one of the units like the Brigade of Gurkhas being part of the Commonwealth of Nations personnel recruited for fleshing out the British Armed Forces.

Would it be easier for the biggest expansions of the British Army to have come through the Territorial Army units?

Yeah the Canadians and ANZACs woud have their own divisons/brigades and their own command linked in with british high command they way they operated back in WW1 and WW2.

The TA where established with future, emergency expansion in mind so yeah, they would do the lion's share of wartime expansion, but only in wartime.

If your talking about peactime expansion due to the threat of the Russian bear then it would be done the old fashioned way (slowly) as recruitment is stepped up and battalions formed organicly before being split offfrom parent regiments to form their own regiment (like I mentioned with the 9th/12th lancers).

The inherent beuty of the regimental system is it is surprisingly easy to expand as it is to cut down, all you need are numbers and time.

This is the only notes that i've been able to find on a British Platoon organization... is it right?

British Army Platoon:
2Lt/Lt <>, Platoon Commander
Sgt./SSgt. <>, Platoon Sergeant
<>, Singnaller
<>, Mortar man
Section:
Cpl. <>, Section/Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Automatic Rifleman
Pte. <>, Rifleman
Pte. <>, Designated Marksman
LCpl. <>, Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Automatic Rifleman
Pte. <>, Rifleman
Pte. <>, Designated Marskman
Section:
Cpl. <>, Section/Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Automatic Rifleman
Pte. <>, Rifleman
Pte. <>, Designated Marksman
LCpl. <>, Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Automatic Rifleman
Pte. <>, Rifleman
Pte. <>, Designated Marskman
Section:
Cpl. <>, Section/Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Automatic Rifleman
Pte. <>, Rifleman
Pte. <>, Designated Marksman
LCpl. <>, Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Automatic Rifleman
Pte. <>, Rifleman
Pte. <>, Designated Marskman

Highly unlikely in my opinion - as 95th Rifleman has said, Commonwealth countries are all independent nations and would be unlikely to commit organised military units to serve under British command, although individuals can serve, again as mentioned by 95th Rifleman.

IRL Hong Kong garrison at the end of the 80's consisted of one British Battalion and approx three - four Gurkha Battalions. To put a stronger garrison in HK you'd have to take them from elsewhere....robbing Peter to pay Paul so to speak. Your best option here would be Gurkhas. I'd recommend looking at the British Army oder of battle on the Etranger website (specifically the 6th Division) for a good example of how to raise additional Gurkha Battalions.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dh...al/BritA2K.htm

That's about right for a modern platoon, aye. in the 90's we'd have no genadiers and no desigated marksmen as that is a relatively recent introduction into British platoons.

I think we had 4 section platoons back in the 90's and one of them was a support section with the gimpy while the other 3 sectons would have L86's as their SAW equivalent. Today the Minimi is used for most SAW use.

This would also probably be the cheapest option, so that would make it a winner with the politicians...

how many personnel were in the support sections for supporting the gimpys?

So alot of Gurhka's and Territoral Army units would make the expansion of the British Army from 1992 to the start of the Euro-Soviet War in 2003 or so then. :)

A support section was the same size as a regular section, just they had gimpys instead of L86's.

generaly the support section would cover an advance or retreat while the rifle sections would do the old leapfrog.

Was it something like this?

Support Section:
Cpl. <>, Section/Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Machinegun Gunner
Pte. <>, Rifleman / Assistant Machinegun Gunner
Pte. <>, Rifleman / Ammo Bearer
LCpl. <>, Fire Team Leader & Grenadier
Pte. <>, Machinegun Gunner
Pte. <>, Rifleman / Assistant Machinegun Gunner
Pte. <>, Rifleman / Ammo Bearer

Would he rank of the Singaller and Mortar Man be Cpl. or Sgt?

It's a possibility...

Do you have a rough idea of how many Divisions you want to end up with or how many locations you want to deploy British troops in?

So far my notes have this...

British Forces Europe
- 1st UK Army (British Army of the Danube): Southern Europe/Balkans
- 2nd UK Army (British Army of the Rhine): Northern Europe
British Forces Americas
- 6th UK Army (British Army of the Amazon): Central & South America
British Forces Africa
- 5th UK Army (British Army of the <>): Africa
British Forces Far East
- 7th UK Army (British Army of the <>): Asia & the Pacific Rim
British Forces Near East
- 8th UK Army (British Army of the Euphrates): The Middle East
British Forces Gibraltar
British Forces Hong Kong
British Forces Brunei
British Forces Cyprus
Sovereign Base Area Akrotiri
Sovereign Base Area Dhekelia
British Forces Falkland Islands
British Forces Caribbean

Wow...that's...big...

Yes... they look very big.

The British Army of the Rhine is the largest single concentration of British Armed Forces outside of the UK.

The British Army of the Thames is the parent organization of all British Army units assigned to the British Isles. They are working at trying to keep the peace and rebuild the country and keep the British Forces out in the field supplied.

The British Army of the Danube is a single Corps that had been sent to reinforce Yugoslavia after they had declared to support NATO, but after Yugoslavia was dismantled by Med Alliance and Warsaw Pact... they are now going to push into Austria and Slovenia (their governments have already unified in all but name) so they can cut off the Italians and link up with the British Army of the Rhine.

The British Army formation in Africa is a single Corps that is built around a British Division supported by several brigades/divisions that are drawn from a coalition of African Commonwealth nations. They started the war in Kenya... trying to reinforce it from being surrounded on all sides by hostile forces.

The British Army of the Amazon is focused heavily on working alongside the US Southern Command fighting in Central and South America... and doing the island fighting campiaign in the Caribbean. They were assigned to reinforce the British Overseas Territories and Dependencies, but brought under a single unified command after the Havana Pact declared war on the UK.

The British Army of the Euphrates is a single Corps level formation that was centered around British Forces in the Middle East supporting USCENTCOM Operations. it's units from the British Army of the Euphrates that recovers evience of the incident that sparked the Sino-Soviet War, and the reason why the Beijing Pact launching a massive offensive against their Western Allies.

The British Army formation in Asia and the Pacific Rim has alot of Aussies and New Zealanders... in fact the bulk of the force is drawn from the Australian Army. Debated with the commander of the 7th UK Army having been a senior Australian officer.

The other forces are the same size as the garrisons that exist IRL, possibly with some reinforcements to account for the fighting... like British Forces Gibraltar (due to Spain being part of the Med Alliance), British Forces Hong Kong (after the Beijing Pact turns against it's western allies) and British Forces Cyprus (thanks to Greece pushing the Med Alliacne into War with NATO over their issues with Turkey)...

British Forces Europe
- 1st UK Army (British Army of the Danube): Southern Europe/Balkans
- 2nd UK Army (British Army of the Rhine): Northern Europe
- 3rd UK Army (British Army of the Thames): British Isles
British Forces Americas
- 6th UK Army (British Army of the Amazon): Central & South America
British Forces Africa
- 5th UK Army (British Army of the <>): Africa
British Forces Far East
- 7th UK Army (British Army of the <>): Asia & the Pacific Rim
British Forces Near East
- 8th UK Army (British Army of the Euphrates): The Middle East
British Forces Gibraltar
British Forces Hong Kong
British Forces Brunei
British Forces Cyprus
- Sovereign Base Area Akrotiri
- Sovereign Base Area Dhekelia
British Forces Falkland Islands
British Forces Caribbean

I am sure Leg can comment better on this but... Australian and NZ armed forces would be involved allies, not subordinates. This is engrained after the experiences of WWII.

Even with my limited knowledge, I would feel 99% confident in saying "regular Aus and NZ forces would not join a shooting war in Europe". (Specialist units like SAS might be different.) Regulars might replace British units in the Far East so that those units can go elsewhere, though.

My 2c,
Andrew

Thanks - I wrote that!

Any questions regarding kit please ask.

Support section would only be present in light role infantry units. Mechanised units add a second sergeant to the mix to command the vehicles when the infantry dismount.

NCOs above would not be grenadiers.

Rifle grenades were on issue prior to the GL being issued.

Also being short of numbers the sergeant often had to carry the 51mm.

Signaller and mortar man were usually privates.

it's not likely but in Korea they did form part of the Commonwealth Division (which also included Belgians under its command!). The 7th COULD become a Commonwealth Division.

As I recall, from the last time I saw an official orbat of one, a Manoeuvre Support Section should be five men strong. Of course, last time I deployed we didn't use a separate MS Section, instead the Sergeant had the 60mm mortar (replacing the 51) and every section had a GPMG in the delta fireteam if they were patrolling dismounted.

Section Commander with rifle and 51mm mortar
Gunner with GPMG
No.2 with rifle
Gunner with GPMG
No.2 with rifle

Oh, and the British forces tend not to use the term Fireteam/Section/Platoon Leader, but prefer the term Fireteam/Section/Platoon Commander.

HSF
 

Nate,

the HSF were formed as an extra Coy for TA units. They were distinct in their role however, being home defence only regardless of attached unit role. It would be easy to expand these to full Bns relatively easily (e.g. HSF Coy 3 WFR becomes 6WFR - 4 is reserved for TA [and has probably reformed] and the 5th Bn was a cadet unit). As all members in the Coy pre-expansion were ready trained it should be easy to expand provided you don't mind lower standards across the unit. Where you will suffer is logistically with the need for kit (as basic as uniforms but especially heavier weapons). For basing you can use the existing TA centres (supplemented by local cadet huts which are more widespread).

Regarding reforming units, I can't think of a modern example, instead you are more likely to add extra Bns to existing units.

In fact, digging out some old notes, the orbat for an infantry platoon was as follows:

Platoon HQ
Platoon Commander with L85
Platoon Sergeant with L85 and 51mm mortar
Signaller with L85

Rifle Section x3
Section Commander with L85
Rifleman with L85
LSW Gunner with L86
Rifleman with L85
Fireteam Commander/Section 2iC with L85
Rifleman with L85
LSW Gunner with L86
Rifleman with L85

Some units had an MS Section as previously outlined, others had GPMGs in the rifle sections. Officially, however, platoon weapons were L85, L86 and LAW80 only. The LMG (Minimi) and UGL didn't start to come in seriously until the early 2000s.

Oh, and Corporals and Lance-Corporals shouldn't be acting as grenadiers where the UGL is present. They have other things to focus on.

The Commonwealth is not a military organisation in any shape or form, just as (to make a comparison) neither is OPEC or Francophonie.

Absolutely agree.

I seem to remember the subject of troops from Commonwealth countries taking part in the Twilight War under UK command coming up a couple of times before...

With the exception of a handful of British overseas territories, none of whom - with all due respect - have significant military forces, Commonwealth countries are Independent States who would decide for themselves whether to go to War or not. The days of Empire, when the Dominions would send their troops to fight - and die - for the mother country are long, long gone. Australia, New Zealand, etc, would be under no obligation to declare War on anyone just because the UK has.

ANZAC troops backfilling for British troops to allow the British to be deployed elsewhere is a possibility. During the Falklands War the Royal New Zealand Navy deployed a Frigate to the Caribbean to allow the Royal Navy warship usually stationed there to join the Task Force.

Wasn't Korea under UN auspices? That might make a difference...

Also, one has to bear in mind that the Canadian and ANZAC regular militaries are, relatively speaking, not that large. For example, Canada, which had its own commitments as a NATO member, had I think (going from memory) somewhere in the region of twelve Regular Infantry Battalions at the end of the Cold War, while I seem to recall a recent discussion about Australian troops in Korea where it was suggested that the most the Australians would be able to send overseas without compromising their own security would be a Brigade Group?

In the lead up to WW2 "conscription" started in March 1939. The Compulsory Military Service Act was passed on 7 February 1939, it basically was based on the old Militia concept and eventually 30,000 men, called Militiamen, were called up for training. In September 1939 the Armed Forces (Conditions of Service) Act came into effect which merged the regular army, the army reserve, the TA, & the Militiamen into one organization, the British Army. This was needed because of the chaotic recruiting situation during WW1 where the regular army, the TF, & the New Armies all had seperate recruiting entities.

Rainbow is absolutely correct, the British Armed Forces of the late '80's early '90's were struggling to man all the units that they had, nevermind expanding. I will get into it further when I get home as I'm on my mobile with such issues as the MARILYN Report & Options for Change.
Hey Nate you might also want to check out our earlier discussion and links on the forum its a good head start

British TO&E info (split from British Army Equipment...

Thank you for all the info! it's helping alot.

Australians and New Zealand troops taking over the majority of the positions in the Far East and Near East formations would be possible then... While their special operations and other specialists COULD provide support for the British Forces Europe. My original idea was that Austrialians had provided peace keeping troops in Cyprus... and when the Greeks launched an attack on them. Thus triggering their declaration of war, and being part of the British Army of the Danube (the force enaged against the Med Alliance in the Balkans).

The Australians and New Zealand troops in Africa was going to have been Peacekeepers trying to help with the situation in Botswana (sp) where the Congo Pact was sponsoring a rebellion that really distablized the country. And deal with the large numbers of Africans of European descent fleeing from Congo Pact countries.

With the recruitment of Gurkhas would allow for a quick influx of personnel.. and with the fact that post-Black Winter there was a growing fear of the Soviets for several years among the population. Especial when pundits were talking about the fact that NATO just didn't have the manpower to have interviened on short notice.

The US Army built up as well... the addition of the 11th (Air Assault) Infantry Division and 17th (Airborne) Infantry Division are examples of rapid response forces.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/22561111/Home-Guard-Manual

http://www.scribd.com/doc/28652417/B...ome-Guard-1941

http://www.scribd.com/doc/37190816/T...-POCKET-MANUAL

Thank you ArmySGT!

Even factoring these possibilities in - and they are only possibilities - remember the Australians are going to want to retain some (probably the majority) of their troops for home defence and the entire regular New Zealand Army is currently a reinforced Brigade Group (it may have been larger in 1990) - I still think finding the numbers that you're looking for to meet all of those deployments would be a big challenge. Whether we like it or not, the UK is not a Global Superpower and hasn't been for a number of years.