I did this very exercise about a week or two ago on paper, at least as far as they'd gotten by October - November. I'll email it to you when I get a chance.
Most units are shown to be in almost the same locations as at 01JUL00. Taking it a bit further, those units mentioned in the Return series are shown to have moved very little - no more than about 100km.
By November I would think most units not already in cantonments would be looking around seriously for somewhere to shelter over winter. Any move would likely have to wait until spring 2001.

True, regarding unit locations. My map will also include unit "loyalty" info as well. What has changed by winter 2000 is that many units are either no longer accepting orders from higher HQ or are still loyal but unwilling to take offensive action. A few seem to have hunkered down with plans to become a particular locality's permanent militia.

This info will be helpful in charting out how Poland might look further on down the line.

My focus has been on charting unit loyalties and strengths leading up to summer of 2000. If I can track that and their positions, I can judge what Pact commanders might have thought about the possible offensive options available to them and come up with a plan that might actually have worked (if Nato hadn't jumped first).

Cool. My focus is more on Poland after the bulk of the NATO forces pull out.

Yeah I realized that after I had written it bit.

The PFC was formed in 1997 when NATO moved into Poland. Lot of the members of this government were the remains of the Polish Government in Exile that has/was based in London since WWII even though it was recognized as such since the end of WWII due to treaties, IIRC. It one of the those things if you not specifically looking for it, was easy to overlook.

Either way it was an organization that NATO propped up and inserted inside Poland during the Offensive and it remained in Poland after the withdraw being supported by NATO and their special operation units and intel networks. I don't think they worked well with the Germans though. As for working with French, it will be 50-50 chance especially if I am correct and they were based in London.

So basically the PFC is little more than a Nato propaganda tool, or puppet at best....

Wikipedia has a page on the Polish Government in Exile. Must confess that whilst I was aware it had existed during WW2, I'd no idea it carried on after the end of the War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_government-in-exile

Sounds like it was a fairly low key organisation even during the Cold War...

On another matter, anyone given any thought to what influence the Pope might play? IRL John Paul II didn't die until 2005, so may still be alive in the T2K timeline - I've always liked the idea of him being offered sanctuary in either France or Switzerland.

I'd have thought that having the support of John Paul II would be a huge boost for any faction in Poland. Even those who don't have any support (such as King Julian) might claim that they did have the Pope's backing as a way to increase their popularity.

Presumably it wouldn't be too difficult to produce forged letters, get a tame Priest, dress him in Cardinal's robes and produce him to the people, where he says that he has come from wherever the Pope happens to be with a message from the Holy Father recognising Julian (or whoever) as the legitimate ruler of Poland...

Pope John Paul II
 

Where he is depends on the Italian government, mostly. A pope going into France has a really, really bad precedent (look up anti-pope, Avignon, etc.), but Switzerland is possible, if he felt he had to leave Rome. It doesn't seem like something he would do, though.

I do agree, having the Pope's (or even a Cardinal's) blessing would be HUGE for a Polish ruler-to-be. Someone missing from Krakow would be the Archbishop there-- in the days of the monarchy, the Primate would stand in for the King between the death of one and the election of the next.

Given the anti-Communist stance of the Polish Church, I suspect once the war started, the Polish government cracked down on the church pretty hard, driving the hierarchy and parish priests into hiding or prison. I bet many of the warlords emerging (Julian, Krakow, PFC, etc.) would re-open churches as soon as possible, to gain loyalty of the people.


Re: the Polish Free Congress: I didn't think there was anything linking them to the WW2 Government in Exile, but I could be wrong. Given the relative power levels and living conditions of France and Britain in 2000-01, it could be easy for the French to win some or all of the London element to come to Paris.

Perhaps the Pope spoke out actively against Poland's involvement in the USSR's war against China or supported Polish exiles after the war began in Europe. Perhaps the Soviet government pressed newly allied Italy to turn the Polish pope over or perhaps the church hierarchy feared a KGB or GRU assassination plot, either aided or abetted by the Italian government. Perhaps the KGB approached some cardinals who wanted to depose the Pope and install someone more to their liking and promised to help get him out of the way. Either way, the Pope and his aides decided it would be safer to move their operations to neutral Switzerland.

Back to U.S. XI Corps. Why do you think SACEUR gave up hope of recovering them during OMEGA? I understand that XI Corps may have had good reason to stay put but those divisions represent significant combat power and it seems odd that the architects of Omega would just write them off.

Could the XI Corps have expressed CivGov sympathies? Could their "abandonment" have been a political move?

The presence of the Polish Free Congress in nearby Pila could be a clue. MilGov was essentially abandoning the PFC to its own devices. What if CivGov made the PFC an offer of direct assistance. Perhaps CivGov saw an opportunity to maintain a military presence in Europe. XI Corps plus the Polish forces loyal to the PFC could create a relatively powerful, pro-western, pro-CivGov enclave in NW Poland- an American bridgehead in Europe, of sorts.

WWIII is a mess.

It's a conflict involving far more than just two sides. For example, just because Italy is fighting Nato doesn't mean they're allied to the Soviets and in fact I wouldn't be suprised if Pact forces and the Italians were put into the same room, there'd be bloodshed (or at least harsh words).

This is one of the issues facing Nato when they chose to run the Greek blockade and deliver badly needed supplies to Turkey in 97. Suddenly the war in central Europe was on two fronts against two seperate and essentially unassociated enemies.

Don't forget his health -- by (IRL) 2000, John Paul IIs Parkinson's Syndrome was quite advanced, though being hidden as much as possible by his colleagues. There could actually be a return to the Europe of days past, when armed conflict broke out over who was or would be Pope, and more than one person claiming to be Pope, each with their own screaming, gun-waving followers.

I'm working on my operational map for Poland during the winter of 2000-2001 again and I thought I'd resurrect this thread instead of starting another.

Going Home states that "The XI Corps was cut off from higher headquarters after the Pact counteroffensive of July, and has remained in its positions out of necessity rather than by choice. It has been written off by USAEUR. The XI US Corps HQ staff is currently wintering in Kolobrzeg, Poland, along with the remnants of the 50th US AD. As of the beginning of the adventure, word of the evacuation has just arrived. Most of the Corps' personnel will decide to remain in place rather than risk the journey to Bremerhaven." (Going Home, p. 14)

This suggests that powerful Pact forces stand between XI Corps and Bremerhaven prior to and during Operation Omega. However, no Pact forces in Going Home or any other canonical source list any Pact forces in that area. It's a straight shot from Kolobrzeg west into Germany, with absolutely no enemy forces standing in the way.

What gives? Where and what is the ghost PACT army that's standing in the way of XI Corps and Bremerhaven? Is there another explanation for XI Corp's decision to stay behind in Poland instead of participating in the evacuation?

I have a slightly non-canonical explanation (see the embedded post quote above) but I'm wondering what if ya'll can come up with another plausible explanation.

The German III Corps offensive, specifically what happened to XI Corps is one of my pet projects. :D
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=354 has a long and detailed discussion.

My comments reposted above are about the most logical explaination I've been able to come up with - terrain is the main enemy although some Pact presence in the form of patrols (in addition to the lack of necessary equipment and materials) prohibits XI Corp from trying to rebuild crossing points.
Individuals and small units (up to say plattoon size) can be transfered back and forth by sea, but to evacuate the Corps would require many months and the abandonment of all heavy equipment (anything that can't be manhandled onto a small boat).

Travel by land would require a unit to push south as far as Berlin (perhaps even beyond) and almost certainly into contact with hostile forces. XI Corp also doesn't have the fuel, nor ammunition required to mount any sort of serious offensive action to clear their path.

One current trend in discourse around these parts would point to the Corps HQ being staffed with an overabundance of brass, the majority of whom of course could not be reasonably expected to find their own assholes with both hands and a flashlight.

I really believe it was all due to the timing of things. Remember it was already late June maybe even July when this went to hell for the XI Corps. Given it location in Poland, and being that they were no longer in contact with NATO lines. Maybe the higher commands realized that the XI Corps had other more pressing issues. Like securing food and shelter for the troops until plan to extract them could be developed and acted upon.

The NATO had been caught completely by surprise how fast the the Soviets were able to move the 22nd Cavalry and 4th Guards Tank Armies. At this time when they were closing in on the 5th Mechanized Division it was only then that the XI Corps Commander faced a hard chose. The 5th was too far south and out on it own. The 8th had equally went out on it own. As the Third German Army and III German Corps started to pull back. The Corps commander was left with hard choice. If he withdrew it would mean 3/4 of his command would be either destroyed or isolated.

If he broke contract with the III German Corps and consolidated the remains of his Corps and hope bits and pieces of the 5th and 8th would make their way back to the Corps. At about this time from NATO Supreme Commander on down to at least Corps level HQs realized the 4th Guards Tanks Army, may have been for something else. The 22nd Cavalry Army well it could be debated either way if they were part of the planned offensive or if they meant to do other operations.

What many Divisional and Corps/Army Commanders had already knew on both sides was any extensive Offensive would led to units effective fighting themselves into non-existence. For NATO the break down wasn't as complete, but with the lot of the Fourth US Army deciding to stay put to help the Germans. While other units had decided to stay in parts of Germany for other reasons.

On the Pact side you see several Front HQ and Army HQ ceasing to exist as they were absorbed into Division. Those that still existed had very few units still responding to them. The exception were units in Austria that really didn't get into the fighting during the Spring/Summer, and those few units of the 4th Soviet Guard Tank Army. Many of the Soviet Divisional Commanders if not higher HQ Commanders were already making plans to go home come in 2001. Much like the US Army, Europe and the UK Army of the Rhine had decide after the 2000 Offensive. They realize continuing the war just because no one was willing to give the order to quit.

For the Soviet Divisional Commanders it was hard decision. Either they can withdraw and lose control of their combat force as bits and pieces split off to do their own thing. Or stay put and try to rebuild where ever they were and use what they could do to help rebuild in their locality as part of new emerging governments.

I see the US XI Corps Commander has to worry about moving heavy equipment and once they got back to NATO lines, how would they NATO Command fit the units. At best his unit would be push to some area that wasn't prepared for the Corps. Worse his command would be split up, since he lost 2 Division.

Either way if he made it back to NATO lines he would lose his job, even if events happen so fast that everything was out of his control when it was realized the Soviet were mounting a major counter-offensive. So I think it was the fact he was looking to save what was left of his combat forces. He knew that if he stay where he was he could get the Corps organized and set up for the coming winter. If he did it correctly and not alienate the local Polish population he may be able to keep things together and working with them improve everyone situation.

Many of the Polish units that had declared for the Polish Free Congress had only done so after the fighting had settled down. Those that had remain loyal to the Pact probably had done so due to the closeness of Soviet commands, yet again many of the Soviet commands were crumbling too. Even a Division of the 22nd Cavalry Army had defected en-mass during the counter-offensive.

By July 2000 almost everyone realize that fighting the old war was pointless. They all had started to think about either rebuilding where they were or making their way home. The only place where the fighting was still going on limited was the Middle East. Even there it still small affair of raids. The Third Army wasn't in no shape to push the Soviet Armies out of Iran. By the same token the Soviet Front in Iran line of communication threatened at best due to various mutinies along their supply line knew their was very little they could do. They were in the same position of the US XI Corps. It was better to consolidate and hope for improvement.

Damn. You totally beat me to the punch Cynic. Now all I can do is pretend to be smart by commenting on your smartness.

Nice catch about the Polish National Anthem mentioning Napoleon. That's news to me.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

Thank you for the compliment :)
Basically I'm a trivia whore :p I like accumulating all those random bits and pieces of information and while I can't usually give specific details like exact dates and so on, I remember enough info to use it as a 'head start' into the topic (particularly useful as a quick leap for doing a web search) or to see some of the links from the various smaller things into the 'big picture'.

In addition to being cut off by terrain and (potential) Pact forces, I'll stick to my opinion that the XI US Corps leadership is influenced by the Polish Free Congress representatives that are with them. The PFC is still trying to win over nearby Polish forces, despite their failure to do much before the offensive. In addition, the "loss of contact" implies to me that after the III German Corps broke contact, the Americans lost faith in their higher-ups. If we further assume some kind of communications breakdown (loss of radios or codes or whatever), then they are truly out of contact.

Where they are, the remainder of XI Corps can try to make the best of a bad situation. Every other NATO unit that's tried to leave their position (5th Mech, 8th Mech, even III Corps) has been driven back or swallowed up by the Pact forces all around. I can certainly see why they want to hunker down for the foreseeable future.

Yeah then throw into the account that the UK and other US units are leaving front line positions after things settle down so to evacuate home. It would be enough to make any Commander to think twice about stirring up a hornet nest again. No sense of giving the Soviet any more reason to move more units.

I don't see the PFC being much of an influence on the XI Corp at all. What can they really offer the Corp that they either don't have already, or can simply reach out and take?

They're stronger together. An adversarial relationship will only harm both parties. Their respective territories are adjacent if not overlapphing. They are both hostile to the Soviets and their lackeys. It would be quite odd, IMHO, if they chose not to work closely together.

I don't buy the "geography" explanation. As the crow flies, the XI is really not all that far from Bremerhaven. Quite a few of the American units listed as "in transit" to the evac point are travelling much greater distances (from Austria, for example) in order to get there. Even if the various river bridges between the Kolobrzeg region and Bremerhaven were down, the XI should include adequate engineer and bridging units to get the bulk of the Corps' men, if not its vehicles, across. I don't see hanging on to their AFVs as being an issue as OMEGA dictates that they be left behind anyway. They could simply be driven to the nearest uncrossable river and scuttled.

Furthermore, the Danish Jutland division somehow made it home. They were listed as being in NW Poland with the XI Corps in the summer but, by Going Home, they have successfully made the journey back to Denmark. Didn't some German units attached to or working alongside the XI Corps also return to German after the failure of the summer offensive? If they can make it that far W, why can't the remainder of the Corps?

There's got to be some other factor/s keeping the XI Corps en situ during OMEGA.

This is an interesting point, Abbott, and one that I hadn't considered. There may some merit to it. I wondering though, would the Corps commander risk the remainder of his command being stranded indefinitely in Poland in the hope that the bulk of the 5th and 8th IDs return? By the time the OMEGA orders are issued, he must have received enough intel to have reached the conclusion that the 5th was all but annihilated. The 8th might be in better shape, but why strand several divisions to wait for only one? Once again, there's got to be something else going on.

It might be a bit of an intellectual copout, but perhaps all of the factors identified so far are in play. Perhaps a more holistic explanation incorporating geography, fraternity, politics, and logistics is in order.

Another idea- forgive me if it's been mentioned previously- supporting the notion that XI Corps' decision to stay in Poland is, at least in part, voluntary is that XI Corps has invested so much time and energy into developing its cantonments in NW Poland, that many of the men have put down roots there and simply don't want to leave. Assuming the various components of XI Corps have been stationed/operating in NW Poland since at least the Spring of 2000, it's possible that there's a sense of belonging/ownership has developed. Perhaps, when given the choice between a long and difficult forced march west, over difficult terrain (geography), to face a long and dangerous ocean voyage back to a devastated country that many of them haven't seen in 2-3 (or more) years, or a relatively safe, well supplied cantonment in a place they've lived and fought in for nearly as long, many men decided on the latter option. Perhaps some of the men have married local women and possibly even started families there?

If the men of XI Corps feel that they have a personal stake in NW Poland, then it stands to reason that they cooperate with the PFC and those former PA units loyal to it.

Rae,

I would agree, the military benefits are obvious. An ally would at least protect your flank, if nothing else. The PFC needs all the friends it can get, and XI Corps are natural allies.

Politically, there are benefits for the PFC, if they can work out a polite fiction the XI Corps is there at their behest and that they retain sovereign control over the combined territory. This is much how foreign recognition enhances the legitimacy of a government.

On XI Corp's side, they would actually derive some benefit themselves from the arrangement. If nothing else, they are less likely to be treated as hostile occupiers. (Not impossible but at least less likely.) They would have translators at the least, at best if the PFC administers their territory on behalf of the Free Polish government they wouldn't have to take that responsibility on themselves. At least at the time of "Going Home", XI Corps is not planning on staying permanently so there's little to gain by exercising direct controlling Polish territory if there's someone willing to administer it for them.

I think you'd at least see direct liaisons between HQs with the exchange of officers, with regular communications established.

Tony

The point about the Danes is a good one, however I believe that can be explained fairly simply.

The Danes were held in reserve by the XI Corps and were therefore further west at the time the Corp came under threat of being cut off. The bulk of the Corp was in fact spread out over a very wide area - the 5th ID down to the southeast, 8th disappeared over the eastern horizon and the 2nd Marines stretched over the Vistula delta.
If you follow my assessment of the offensive, the entire Corps was short on fuel due to loss of shipping capacity in the Baltic (this loss of shipping also helps explain why the Corps can't be evacuated by sea).

The Danes however were probably the link unit between the US/Canadians and the Germans. They were able to squeeze back into Germany before the route was cut by the advancing Pact forces - the remainder of the Corp too crippled by the fuel shortage to move fast enough (and the Marines still spread across numerous rivers).

Although crippled by the lack of fuel, the XI Corps still posed enough of a challenge defensively to deter the Pact forces from pressing against their enclave in an attempt to push them into the sea - the XI Corp still possessed much of the ammunition, food and other stores gathered over the preceeding months, even years for their intended offensive operations.

It makes sense, and I'm tempted to buy in, but, who are these advancing Pact forces? Where did they go? Why aren't they still between the remainder of XI Corps (the "trapped" bits) and Bremerhaven when OMEGA gets under way. There's nothing listed in that area in Going Home. If there are no enemy forces between their cantonments and Bremerhaven, why can't the elements of XI Corps just walk west? Several units in Germany are listed as legging it towards the evac point, so it's not unprecendented. A fuel shortage explains, in large part, the ultimate failure of the Summer XI Corps offensive but it doesn't explain the failure of XI Corps to evacuate northern Poland in the fall. The fuel issue, at the time Omega is unveiled, is kind of moot. Like I said before, if XI Corps is out of gas, why wouldn't it just scuttle its tanks in place and hoof it?

If the answer is enemy forces to the west, where are they? If they're not strong enough to merit a mention in any of the canonical sources, then they shouldn't be much of an obstacle to a powerful NATO Corps.

If the widely scattered 2nd MarDiv can reassemble and return to its cantonment by the time the OMEGA orders come down- fuel shortages and everything- why can't it continue west? There are hostile Pact forces at several points along the Baltic Coast and elements of the 2nd MarDiv would presumably had to have fought through a couple of those as well to reassemble at its fall cantonment. If they could do that, why couldn't the entire XI Corps break out to the west?

I really wish we could get an original developers explanation for why XI Corps stays behind in Poland.

I'm just going to say this so that we can acknowledge it and move back to the process of trying to force sense out of why XI Corps would just sit on its hands and watching TF 34 sail over the horizon.

This is a continuity error. Plain and simple.The writer claims IX Corp is cut off by Pact Forces and then failed to position any Pact Forces to do the job. Just an oversight.

Now, back to the RetCon.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

So, the RetCon is to place a PACT Corps between U.S. XI Corps and German III Corps? I'm game.

There were some Polish Troops, also there may have been rumors of Soviet troops moving north which some did during the counter offensive. Granted after the bulk of the one Polish Army more or less switch sides and several of the rest of the Polish army units making the consideration.

Now the real trick is how whatever Governments reclaim control of Germany and Poland do get along. The III German Corps withdrawing wouldn't make many friends with the Poles. The Poles in all aspect wouldn't really be too friendly to the UK or the French either. They were both part of the selling them out to the Soviets, even though the French were along for the ride at that point.

So even with large Pro-NATO in northern Poland. The government would not really trust the Germans who they felt started the war to begin with. UK would be trusted but within reason, they did after all allow the Government-in-Exile to continue to function in London even after they handed Poland to the Soviets. France it saving grace is the long history of alliances at times when the Polish were free against the various common enemies (ie Germans, Austria-Hungarian Empire, Russia) in the pass and they pulled out of the NATO and didn't actively take part in the what they would of seen as the German led invasion during WWIII.

As for the French being able to provide aid, well they will certainly have agents all over Europe. Them and Isreal will have several agents at the various large power centers in Central and Eastern Europe trying to make sure that only the ones they supported would eventual rule over these regions.

As for real physical help, for Poland at least they will stay away at least Northern Poland. Southern Poland would be pretty much cut off from formal help from the French, unless the France would be willing to use their Air Force to send aid. Two reason with troop on the Rhine region of Germany and not being in NATO, these two countries are more or less in undeclared war. France is in no position to slug it out with a weaken German Army and lay claim to more devastated areas.

Not only that the French would be interested in standing up the other Baltic State and other regions of Europe back on the path of stabilization. For nothing else to make sure they don't have to spread out their already spread out force.

The XI Corps, at least the Canadians, 50th AD and 2nd Marines, is still a very strong formation. Writing off that firepower isn't somethng ANYONE is going to do lightly, even if it's preventing large scale evacuation.
As I've proposed, some transportation is available between XI Corps and the remainder of Nato, which would allow the transfer of individuals between them. Some from XI may wish to go home, while, as we know from Going Home, many other US troops chose, for various reasons, to stay - these people may choose to move into XI Corps AO.

The thought may be that with approximately 1/4 of US manpower staying in Europe, a second evacuation may occur in the following months. While waiting for this to be organised, XI could have been distilling fuel for a breakout to the south and west, taking with them absolutely TRUCKLOADS of vehicles, ammunition and other stores, all vital to either the Germans, or US recovery.

I do agree that there should be a Pact blocking force in place. I agree that the lack of such is either an oversight, misprint, or misinformation. The players should NEVER know exactly where the enemy is unless they've personally laid eyes on them. Leaving an obvious gap on the BYB map (and in the other books) could be construed as a part of this vagueness.

It is my personal belief that the map of unit locations in the 2.x book, cannot be taken as gospel - a fair indication perhaps, but I believe that during writing of all versions, the developers were a little pressed for time and this is one of the things they overlooked.

I believe those other than the XI Corps have chosen to stay. Of course, there will be this unit or that missed the boat, but for the large part units like the one Brigade from the 44th Armor Division and 11th Armor Cavalry Regiment stayed for various reason. One was to get power plant operation and set up their own kingdom if not use it as resource for the coming 'power' struggles, while the other returned to the region it was deployed before the war (which didn't make sense in the overall picture of things, but hey it was their story) that some in the unit still had ties too. The rest of the units of the US 7th and 4th Army and the other Corps that had been attached to a German Army that had stayed had done so in order to help the Germans rebuild.

If there was 2nd evacuation it would for the US XI Corp assuming that Northern Poland did stay with NATO.

As for the Corps staying, these units have learned what the Armies of Centuries past had already known. Once summer has past, it was time to start to preparing winter quarters. This would include setting up a Corps Supply Base, Divisional Supply, and Brigade/Regimental Supply Bases and then setting up the various Battalions, Squadrons, Companies, and Troops in an array to control the Corps XI as well as train local militia and police units.

IF the Corps decide to move, there was no way know for sure they would make it. No one in Germany would of been able to absorb and the pain in ass to realign units to give XI Corps a part of the line or place it in reserve. It would mean the Corps would have to start from scratch if they were placed in reserve and pissing off the local population when they realize their food stores would have to be shared with their new neighbors. Or much worse the Corps and the units they displace would have to build up, not from scratch, but the confusion during this time would lend itself where units would be more prone to Pact attack/raids.

I think it was probably the hardest choice that was made with the Supreme Commander, US Army, Europe Commander, and US XI Corps Commander and their HQs already having access these questions. Not know how loyal the newly NATO flagged Poles would be and if they would mind the units they had previous been fighting month ago would let their former enemy free passage too. Beside the unknown of the fighting effectiveness of the Soviet units moved north to replace the Polish units that were fighting the 3rd German Army during the offensive and the run away 5th and 8th US Mechanized Divisions.

A second evac would indeed have to be aimed mainly at extracting the XI Corp, however those units which stayed to assist in rebuilding would surely find a berth available also.
A second evac would be much smaller than Omega and require a lot less resources. It's also presumable that the Nato commanders acknowledged the war was effectively over in September/October 2000 or else they probably wouldn't have authorised Omega. By Spring 2001, there may be enough Pact units withdrawn to allow XI Corp a decent chance too.

Scott,

Part of the retcon could be that XI Corps feared there were PacWar forces in between them and Bremerhaven. Given the state of intelligence gathering, it's possible that they mistook the position of real PacWar forces or the blocking force is completely imaginary.

Tony

This is probably a bit out of the box, but from time to time I've thought about the possibility of XI Corps "catching a lift" with the BAOR when it returns to the UK.

My thinking (which I haven't gone into in any great detail as it's not something that I would use myself*) is something along the lines of HMG offering space to XI Corps on the ships sent to bring the BAOR back to the UK (possibly with whatever AFV's and heavy equipment they can get to Bremerhaven); the British might even be able to send ships right into the Baltic to pick them up.

In return for this XI Corps would then assist HMG in restoring order in the UK (and considerable assistance that would be - it would I think virtually double the manpower available to HMG). The last part of the deal would involve HMG supplying transport for XI Corps to ultimately return to the US (and Canada) some time towards the end of 2001 (Of course I'm sure anyone that wanted to stay in the UK would be made quite welcome...). Again, this would be with whatever AFV's etc they had brought with them from Europe, so there is a long term benefit there for (presumably) Milgov. Also saves Milgov having to arrange a second evacuation.

So...really just a random thought...XI Corps get a ride home courtesy of the British Government late in 2001 in exchange for six months of peacekeeping in the UK..

(*Main reason I wouldn't use it as I think that having such a large body of reasonably well equipped and experienced troops available would heavily tilt the balance of power in favour of HMG and mean that law and order would be restored much quicker, which I don't think would be conducive to decent RP'ing opportunities - for example I don't think the Duke of Cornwall or any of the separatist Governments would stand much of a chance against them)

Although XI Corp have their backs solidly against the ocean, there simply aren't any port facilities in the area capable of handling them, even today. Throw in several years of warfare and nukes, and....

For the XI Corp to go anywhere, it has to be by land, at least in the initial stages.

That is the entire point by Spring or early Summer 2001 there may be enough withdrew/faded away/change sides from in between the German III Corps and the US XI Corps?

Then the next question is how much of the of the forces left in this area are Pro-NATO and if they would it be more productive to keep the XI Corps there to keep their portion of Poland stabilized long enough for the for NATO friendly government in Poland to take control of their region.

With the US and UK largely out of the fight. What is left of NATO on the main land have to turn their attention toward rebuilding and consolidating. I am sure there would be number of troops who would want to leave for home in the XI Corps, but I don't see Germany, Danish, Sweden, or any other government that was still left in NATO in 2001 being willing to support such a move. As a whole what remains of NATO would be disappointed in both the US and UK for their leaving them high and dry. Not many of the Governments could blame the US or UK doing so.

What real value would the US and/or the UK would get out of the XI Corps even if they were able to withdraw the remains of the Corps including the the remains of the II MEF which would have collapse upon the 2nd Marine Division. I am sure the remains of the various elements of German, Polish, and Danish Governments would love to keep the XI Corps in their region to help rebuild.

I've said before that I personally think that as soon as the BAOR comes home the game is up for most if not all of the separatist and marauder elements in the UK - quantitively and qualitively I don't think they are any match for the BAOR. The only question is how long they can hold out (and how much damage they inflict on HMG whilst doing so).

XI US Corps (or even a relatively small part thereof) would be an immense force multiplier. I'm not suggesting thay a combined BAOR / XI Corps would "pacify" the country in six months, but XI Corps' presence could (I think) significantly reduce the time that it takes HMG to get large parts of the country back under control.

I don't doubt it, however what the UK Government might - and it is a very big might - be able to offer that others cannot is an eventual way home to North America. We know from canon that the UK has sufficient shipping to withdraw two Divisions with equipment at some point in time and also has access to North Sea oil, so there is a possibility that eventually those who want to go home can do so. And as I mentioned previously, there's an added benefit to the US Government inasmuch as they eventually get more troops home, possibly with AFV's and heavy equipment without having to arrange the evacuation themselves - the British do everything for them.

Like I said, it is a totally random, and in some ways totally "out there" idea, and there are problems - Leg pointed out the lack of suitable ports on the Baltic, which simply never crossed my mind...but maybe it could work...

It can, if the nearby Pact units to the East are still mechanized and mobile. There doesn't have to be anyone blocking them in the West.

If they hoof it out on foot, leaving their heavy armor behind, then the Pact units nearby won't have a hard time running them down, outmanuevering them, and simply using superior (one sided now) firepower.

XI Corps can be fixed in place, unable to move, because if they do they won't be able to break contact and will be ultimately overwhelmed. Their armour and artillery would be like a double edged sword - keeping them alive but helplessly trapped at the same time.

Intel gathering in 2000 is definitely not what it was in early '97, but XI Corps should have enough recon assets (LRS companies, ad-hoc LRRP units, and elements of the 116th ACR) to determine that significant enemy forces aren't blocking the route west.

Granted, precedent does exist for massive intel failures in the Twilight War (i.e. the "misplaced" Pact Corps that destroys 5th ID), but that's a slightly different situation. The 5th was plunging deep behind enemy lines and at least a couple of the units that smashed it were thought to be in the Ukraine or thereabouts. In the case of XI Corps, were talking about much shorter distances and an area essentially behind friendly lines. The XI Corps commander would have to be paralyzed by fear in order not to do anything to at least determine ground truth in the AO before making such a far reaching decision (i.e. to stay put in NW Poland indefinitely).