Poland After OMEGA

[Raellus]

I'm currently reading Rising '44 (by Norman Davies) about the valiant but doomed efforts of the AK (Polish Home Army) to liberate Warsaw ahead of the advancing Soviet Army in the late summer of 1944 and it's inspired me to try to steer the player group in my campaign towards helping the Poles whether the storm and regain their independence in the wake of the American's withdrawal from Europe (ie OMEGA).

I'm learning that the Poles have a long history of vigorously opposing occupying armies, especially those from the East, and I can't see them rolling over and allowing dozens of Soviet divisions, some of which have gone rogue, to camp out on their territory indefinitely. I think that many Poles would want to get them out as soon as possible but it's a pretty complicated proposition.

The [loyal] Polish armed forces are clearly outnumbered by the Red Army forces in Poland. Significant Polish forces are no longer under centrallized control (the Krakow ORMO, the Margrave of Silesia's forces, etc.). The Soviets presumably still have nuclear weapons and might be tempted to use them to close their back door should they decide on a general withdraw from Polish territory (especially if "loyal" Polish Army units become rebellious).

Working in the Poles' favor, the Soviets might want to bring some (or, less likely, all) of their divisions back to the Motherland to deal with the various separatist and marauder elements already operating on home soil. Perhaps the Soviets could be persuaded to leave peacefully.

There seem to be a lot of interest "macro"-level, strategic gaming opportunities in Poland, post-OMEGA: uniting Polish factions (this may be a good time to explore the Black Madonna, if it's not been addressed earlier), negotiating with independent Polish, Soviet, and German units. Fighting marauders and hostile foreign forces. General rebuilding operations. It seems like a rich, dangerous, Byzantine setting for all kinds of RPing fun.

I'm not very familiar with Polish canon after OMEGA. Return to Warsaw seems like a rehash of Ruins... . White Eagle appears to deal mostly with Poland south of Krakow. Perhaps some of the questions I've raised are already addressed by these "Return to Poland" modules. None of them appear to deal with the activities of the various Soviet Armies still listed as being on Polish soil as of late summer, 2000.

What is your take on post-OMEGA Poland?

[rcaf_777]

I image Poland being devided after a formal ceasefire is signed, with small units of Marine have FOB along a DMZ with a few units of Army troop UK and US training a new Polish Army the New West Poland would the free Polish legions and the Krakow ORMO, and the Margrave of Silesia's forces. Krakow would become a new Captial and Polish Government in Exile would set up a government

[pmulcahy11b]

There's some fanfic (can't remember which site) about an operation that takes place after OMEGA. It's pretty decent. If no one can find the site, let me know; I'm pretty sure I downloaded the whole thing to my hard drive at some point, and hopefully, the author won't object to my posting it on my site.

[kato13]

Wouldn't the "Return to Europe" series cover some of this. I never played through it so I don't remember any details.

[Abbott Shaull]

I had the Warsaw but don't remember what was mention. One thing I do remember what was left of the Soviet Army was by all practically purpose melting away as an organized army following orders from Stavka and Theater Commanders.

There were areas under the control of the Polish Free Congress. Most regions where what was left of the Polish First, Second, and First Tank Armies had various militias reinforced, many of them working with the PFC other going independent for the time being waiting to see who to support. The Soviet supported government was still Lublin, but they controlled on the city. Some of the best organized areas were those under the control of the 14th MRD and their feudal state that was set up there and the 8th MRD and it City-State of Krakow.

While those areas that had Soviet troops station or such as areas east of Krakow and south of Lublin had marauder problems. Other units were on the move back to their homelands in the Soviet Union. Some units had stayed put either setting up their own feudal states/petty dictatorship or absorbing into the local militia. By this time there were few Soviet units in Eastern Europe who were accepting orders. If they were, they more interested in preserve what limited forces they had than waste lives.

Just some thoughts.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by kato13

Wouldn't the "Return to Europe" series cover some of this. I never played through it so I don't remember any details.

Not really. Like I said, Return to Warsaw is basically Ruins of Warsaw Part II and White Eagle deals with southern Poland. Bear's Den is set in the Ukraine. There's not much about northern Poland were Polish units predominate or western Poland where there are numerous Soviet units (as of 07/00). I haven't looked very closely at Castle by the Sea yet, though.

Maybe I missed a module somewhere. That's why I asked. I'm also wondering if any forumites out there have worked anything up for post-Omega Poland.

Paul, anything you can share would be much appreciated.

[simonmark6]

I haven't got my modules to hand, but there are some clues to the situation in Poland that might help:

1) White Eagle: Free Polish Partisans are fighting the paranoid King of Silesea, there are a few clues to the state of Southern Poland;
Filipowicz is becoming an egomanical despot
There are independant forces in Czecoslovakia that are looking at Krakow and Silesia greedily
There's been a coup in Krakow and it's looking more fragile than ever, it's suggested that Krakow may soon fall into either chaos or to enemy forces
2) The ruins of Warsaw: The continuing existance of the Black Baron as a threat to peacful citizens suggests that there are few organised forces policing theland. The fact that the Black Baron could last a hard winter without the Northern Polish and Soviet forces crushing him suggests that units in the north are not interested in or able to aid recreation.
3) The Bear's Den: the Ukraine is making a bid for independance and is also threatened by a Pro-Nato unit in the Caucuses.
If the Soviets want to maintain internal security, they are probably pulling units back to deal with this. I'd make the Ukraine a major theatre in the Summer of 2001, returning Ukranian deserters would swell the Bear's army and Soviet forces from Poland, Russia and Roumania would be fighting to retake the Ukraine and establish lines of communication between the Motherland and the Ploesti oilfields.
This potential conflict might start to empty of organised Soviet units and allow Poles to reassert themselves somewhat.
4) Eastern European Sourcebook
The 8-ball division are trapped in the Baltic States and ae likely to get tangled up with these States' attempts to stay independent of the Soviets. Again, if the Soviets decide they want the Baltic States back, this would draw forces from Poland.
5) Survivor's Guide to the UK
In the summer of 2001, the UK are planning their own OMEGA but they also plan to bring their heavy gear home with them. If they succeed, this leaves the Germans facing the Poles pretty much on their own. With the French on German territory, I can't see the Germans taking offensive actions against the Poles, but if the same adventurers that started the war are still in command I could be completely wrong....
6) Howling Wastelands
The drought that effectively kills of the USA results in bumper crops in the UK and Europe, this will help recovery in the long run.

So, looking at all the clues and basing assumptions (which could be totally spurious and incorrect), I'd suggest that as the Americans and British leave, the Soviets will withdraw their organised divisions from Poland to deal with internal issues, fighting marauders, regaining the Ukraine and Baltic States. This would leave Poland with breathing space and growing crops to start recovery.

The problem is, which Poland? There lies the rich roleplaying environment that Rae craves. I think it's more than feasible and also a very interesting scenario.

[Legbreaker]

Poland in 2001 is a desolate, war ravaged and almost unpopulated wasteland by and large.
Poland more than any other country suffered from the front crossing it twice, uncounted nukes spattered all over, depredation by marauders, disease, famine, and just about everything else imaginable.
According to the East Europe Sourcebook (EES) the prewar population stood at 38,300,000. In mid 2000 it's down to barely 9,000,000 - a decrease to just 23.5% of 4 years before. 735,000 (about 8%) of these live in the remains of the major cities. Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Poland and EES, we can work out on average cities have a population just under 10% of prewar.
From The Black Madonna we know that 2.9 million of these casualties were in Silesia - a staggeringly high percentage of the whole countries deaths. Again looking at the above sources, we can work out 80% of the population in Silesia lives in the three largest centres leaving the countryside with a population density of about 1.6 per square kilometre, or 4 per square mile (down from a prewar rural figure of 81 per sq km - 210 per sq mile).

So, as can be seen in the south, there must be a lot of bodies still laying about unburied - it's not like there's too many people around to take care of them all!

The situation is certainly better in most other parts of the country, but with a greater population density probably comes greater problems in the form of marauders. When in areas not directly under the influence of a powerful faction of some kind, lawlessness is likely to prevail.

To put it into T2K 2.0 terms, Silesia could be considered Devastated while in other areas the default might be Terrorised. It's doubtful that there'd be many regions that could be classified as Organised or Independant outside the range of the nearest machinegun.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Poland more than any other country suffered from the front crossing it twice, uncounted nukes spattered all over, depredation by marauders, disease, famine, and just about everything else imaginable.

Front crossing it twice? At least four times, possibly more.

[Legbreaker]

Nato attacked across it in 1996/97 and was pushed back in late 1997.
Other than some minor local activity, most of the action in 1998 appears to have taken place to the south and not in Poland.
1999 saw the front lines staying relatively stable and in 2000 nothing much happened until the summer offensives.

It's hard to say that US XI Corp alone "crossed" the country - only the US 5th ID and 8th ID really made any headway.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

According to the East Europe Sourcebook (EES) the prewar population stood at 38,300,000. In mid 2000 it's down to barely 9,000,000 - a decrease to just 23.5% of 4 years before. 735,000 (about 8%) of these live in the remains of the major cities.

IIRC, that death toll is, percentage-wise, worse than the Black Plague of the Middle Ages!

[Legbreaker]

Somehow I tend to think uncounted nukes fired off at anything even vaguely worthwhile would have a greater impact on population than a simple disease....

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Somehow I tend to think uncounted nukes fired off at anything even vaguely worthwhile would have a greater impact on population than a simple disease....

At the risk of getting us OT, the Black Death of the mid-14th century was no "simple" disease. Most modern scholars believe it was actually two diseases, Bubonic Plague and, later, the much more deadly Pneumonic Plague. Some people have postulated that it was actually neither but instead a hemoragic fever of some sort, much like Ebola.

Furthermore, medieval folks had no idea what caused it, maving prevention and treatment alomst impossible.

[Adm.Lee]

This is a campaign I'd wanted to play/run, 'cause I always wanted to see who would emerge on top in Poland. The first run of Poland modules actually hooked me on Polish history, it's now habit for me to root for the Poles whenever possible.

I've stared at the "Return" modules long and hard, but by the time they came out, my group had long dispersed, and soon the end of the Cold War drained away the enthusiasm. "White Eagle" seemed the best starting place for such a campaign. When reading "Black Madonnna" the possibility of a King touched a romantic nerve. Then I read about him going nuts-- oh, well. The sentimental favorite would seem to be the People's Army, with the Black Madonna, gaining the power of Krakow and the trade league there to win. Even if they could defeat the King and keep the Czechs at bay, would they then be strong enough to hold off the rest?



IMO, what would happen is that political groups would build around some cores, like Krakow, Silesia, and whatever local powers rose up, including marauders. Warlords would be the common term, and their power base would be their wartime commands, plus any foreign mercenaries they could get their hand on.

The Soviets would melt away as a threat on their own, I think. Some divisions had already started to melt away as men deserted, I could easily see a lot of men just deserting to try to go home. Small or large bands of these could become mercenaries for whoever wanted to rule an area. Some Soviet generals might decide to become warlords, like their Polish counterparts. Any Soviet forces still listening to orders, or higher HQs, would likely walk out sooner or later, as the NATO threat to the homeland diminishes.

Given that neither side retains much capability to mount a real ground-gaining offensive, and about half of the Americans and nearly all of the British are leaving the Continent in the winter of '00, NATO is at least as crippled as the Soviets. It certainly would seem unable to press all the way to the Soviet border. Were I a Soviet front commander, I would say, "job done," and go home.

Hmm-- here's a thought. One or more Soviet higher-ups get the idea to talk cease-fire with the Germans, say, a Front commander. If he can tell the troops around him, "I've ended the war, let's go home!" he would be fantastically popular with "his boys." And with the local Poles, whom he could badger for a one-time gift of food and fuel, to enable their withdrawal. But not with any KGB hard-cases, if there are any left. That sounds like a game-- the PCs are NATO (or German or Polish) operatives tasked to keep Marshal Popularov alive, at least until he goes far away.

Anyway, as I see, Poland is depopulated, both sides' armies are going home, so the new Poland will coalesce around several centers, that will have to jockey for position against one another. Foreign mercenary soldiers will be important, as local men might be preferred to settle on the land. Some of the mercenaries could be paid off in land, as well, after a suitable term of service (5 years? 10? If they live that long).

Edit: I'm probably going to be thinking on this again for a while today, time to break out the maps again!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

At the risk of getting us OT, the Black Death of the mid-14th century was no "simple" disease. Most modern scholars believe it was actually two diseases, Bubonic Plague and, later, the much more deadly Pneumonic Plague. Some people have postulated that it was actually neither but instead a hemoragic fever of some sort, much like Ebola.

Furthermore, medieval folks had no idea what caused it, maving prevention and treatment alomst impossible.

I vaguely remember seeing on one of the science or history channels that the "Black Death" may have been as many as five diseases with similar symptoms, including both bubonic and pneumonic plague.

[Raellus]

I'm with you, Adm. Lee. I really want to play out how Poland responds to the NATO withdrawal from its territory in the wake of Omega.

On one hand, the Soviets have some very compelling reasons to pull out of Poland. On the other, the Russians have an almost atavistic fear of Germany and I can't see them giving up their claims to a "buffer state" (i.e. Poland) against a reunited Deutschland.

Things are a mess in southern Poland, what with the "King" of Silesia and a fiercely independent Krakow. Northern Poland looks like a better candidate for the seat of a resurgent Polish nation-state. In N. Poland, there are many more Polish military units than Soviet ones. If there was some sort of anti-Soviet movement in the general staff (in not the civilian national government), I can see the recovery and reconstruction of post-war Poland beginning there.

But, before that can happen, individual units' loyalties would need to be determined/secured, the Soviet forces still in northern Poland would have to be dealt with, either diplomatically or by force, and various rogue or marauder groups would need to be brought to heel. Soviet Baltic Front (Malbork) and Reserve Front (Lublin) HQs are relatively isolated and are ripe for Polish army- instigated coups. But, in my mind, the Poles would have to be very careful not to pose too great a threat to the Soviets, lest they resort to the nuclear option.

Also, German quiescence would need to be secured in order to prevent interference from that side.

It seems like a really fertile setting for a more diplomatic style campaign. I'm not sure that a lot of T2K player groups would really go in for that sort of thing. I know that most of my players start getting bored when I try to insert too much diplomacy. For good or for bad, it seems like combat and survival is truly the heart of T2K.

[Rainbow Six]

Interesting thread...I read Rising 44 in 2003 when I was working in Warsaw...great book, slightly surreal reading it in the City where it happened...

If you haven't seen it there's a write up of Poland on the etranger 2300 site...it briefly mentions the immediate aftermath of the Twilight War...here's the link...

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dh...oland/JBPA.htm

A few random thoughts...

I totally concur with the view put forward that several different factions will emerge, each with its own power base, and each supported by foreign mercenaries as well as Polish troops. I also agree that it would probably make for more of a diplomatic campaign rather than a hack n slash...

I tend to think that the Germans aren't going to be in any condition to make an offensive move against Poland for decades...I think the Germans will have enough on their plate defending their borders, dealing with marauder groups inside their own country and the French presence in the Rhineland. So unless Poland threatens Germany, I don't see Germany threatening Poland any time soon.

The Soviets are undoubtedly a bigger problem, although I agree with Adm Lee and think that problem may diminish over time as units simply begin to disintegrate. I also think there may be a fair number of Soviet units on Polish soil who will be happy to stay put, and in doing so may possibly form local defence militias. I think it's possible that they may also enter into alliances, not only with the Poles but also possibly XI Corps in the north.

(What I'm thinking here is that a Soviet unit may be quiet comfortable billeted in a Polish town several hundred kilometres from Theatre HQ; the area may be relatively free of marauders, the Soviets have a good relationship with the locals who are providing them with food and other services, several of the Soviets may have become nvolved with local women, and then they receive orders to move to the Ukraine to fight the separatist forces there. How many units are going to simply ignore these orders, stay put, and gradually go native? I think quite a few; one Zampolit can hardly force a whole Company to move, and if he presses the issue too much then he risks a bullet in the back of the head).

Re: King Julian, he has to be a prime candidate for assasination I think. Any faction that can successfully kill him and replace him with their own man (or woman) has gained over de facto control of Silesia. If they can manage to blame another faction for the assasination, then that's an added bonus. I think that might some potential for a campaign, and is able to utilise the material already published by GDW for background.

Even killing him and not managing to replace him would be a partial success, as without him as a figurehead the armed forces under his command might disperse of their own accord.

I also wouldn't rule out French interference....when our group played Black Madonna all those years ago, we had Julian receiving "advice" from two DGSE agents who had been parachuted into Silesia. One was killed, one disppeared, to become the group's nemesis, returning from time to time.

As I said, just a few random thoughts...

[pmulcahy11b]

Based on that thread link you posted, here's another random thought -- the NCO and Officer-making process shows heavy US influence. Which in many ways does make sense to me, as a lot of US forces stayed behind in Poland after Op Omega.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Based on that thread link you posted, here's another random thought -- the NCO and Officer-making process shows heavy US influence. Which in many ways does make sense to me, as a lot of US forces stayed behind in Poland after Op Omega.

Agreed.

I think it makes a huge amount of sense for XI Corps to attempt form an alliance with Polish forces in the north after Omega. if nothing else, it may be a way for them to eventually get back to North America.

[simonmark6]

Looking at the 2300AD stuff, I am going to make a few guesses about how things go in the immediate future of Southern Poland.

1) Fillipowicz loses, either from pressures within and teh Polish partisans or from Krakow conquering him. The most fun RPwise would be for PCs to make the partisans successful enough to gain backing from Krakow and at some point Filipowicz is whacked.

2) Either the Czechs get their house in order and neutralise the rouge General or he is bought off/rubbed out.

3) This leaves an interesting campaing for the forces of Krakow to take out the deserters around Stoala Wola (sp?) who aren't likely to be absorbed or go away.

4) That would leave Krakow in a solid position with a good agricultural base and a platform for industrial restoration.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I think it makes a huge amount of sense for XI Corps to attempt form an alliance with Polish forces in the north after Omega. if nothing else, it may be a way for them to eventually get back to North America.

It might make sense in today's political and social climate, but Poland is still at war with Nato in 2000...

One cannot forget that Germany, backed up by Nato was seen by many eyes as the aggressor. After 4 solid years of war and Poland reduced to nothing more than rubble (and much of the damage done by NATO in the 1997 withdrawal as they threw nukes at the Pact forces), forgiveness and brotherhood are likely to be VERY rare virtues in the Polish people.

It is highly likely Polish troops may well be even more fanatical in driving out Nato than the Soviets ever were! It's just fortunate that the Germans and Poles are, at least in the lead up to Omega, at seperate ends of the border, otherwise there might be a few more mushroom clouds (figuratively speaking).

[Raellus]

That's a good point, Legbreaker. By 2000, Poland's been fighting NATO for three years. There's likely to be a lot of bad blood.

I think the Germans are only in Poland to keep the Soviets at arms length. If the Soviet threat was lessened somehow (withdrawal, disintegration, defeat), I don't think the Germans would necessarily feel the need to stick around. There's plenty for them to do back in the Fatherland.

Who knows how the Poles would approach the situation? If they do so pragmatically, then the Germans might be allowed to go in peace or even to stay in western Poland for a period of time. If the Poles chose to act emotionally, then fighting with NATO would probably continue. I just don't see that there is that much to gain from attacking NATO when there are bigger threats on Polish soil (marauders of various nationalities, Soviet units). I seriously doubt Germany would attempt offensive ops against Poland. There seems to me that there is much more to gain by both sides agreeing to at least a cease-fire, if not some sort of active cooperation.

Canon seems to suggest that the Germans are pulling back to and consolidating on German soil while most of the Americans are pulling out of Europe entirely during OMEGA. As several posters have pointed out, France is bigger threat/preoccupation for Germany than Poland is.

Of course, this all hinges on the Soviet question. If there isn't a significant Soviet pull out and/or collapse in Poland, then the Germans aren't likely to budge from Polish soil.

Prior to WWII, there were three attitudes held by Poles. In general, those living in the western part of Poland viewed the Germans as a bigger threat and were more likely to advocate cooperation with the Soviets. In the east, the exact opposite was true. And then, many Poles suscribed to the "doctrine of two enemies", and prefered to treat both with suspicion (if not outright hostility) and to keep both at arm's length. I can see these same ideas/attitudes prevalent in the Poland of 2000.

@Rainbow Six

I also believe that the French would be trying to exert their will in Poland. In my campaign, one of the PCs is a FFL direct action team member who was sent to Poland to find and recover the Black Madonna. The idea was to acquire a powerful religious symbol linking Catholic France and Catholic Poland which would give the French some sort of leverage in the political future of the post-war Poland.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I think the Germans are only in Poland to keep the Soviets at arms length. If the Soviet threat was lessened somehow (withdrawal, disintegration, defeat), I don't think the Germans would necessarily feel the need to stick around.

Go back and examine the cause of the war in Europe. Depending on the version, 7 ethnic Germans in the Polish Army were ordered to do something they objected to - In V1 I think it was being assigned to the Soviet-Chinese front, while in 2.0 and 2.2 it involved issues a little closer to home.

The Poles didn't like these 7 men disobeying their orders, and (rightfully in my mind) punished them for it - they were after all members of the UN recognised government of the country.

What was the German response to this essentially lawful act by the Poles? Invade a sovereign nation already preoccupied with a war on the other side of the world.

This might not be the whole story, but it's enough that many Poles will see clear comparisons to 1939 and earlier. One also has to remember that Poland is a fairly new country. Until relatively recently, Poland has been split up amongst it's neighbours, fought over countless times and generally been treated with complete distain. This historical chaos and repression doesn't just fade away into distant memory, especially when it's relived time and again by it's neighbours invading it.

Poland, while an ally in WWII, was badly treated by the west after the war (even during it I beleive in some cases). Nato grew out of the western allies and so it's probable a clear connection can be seen by many older Poles. Germany, their historical enemy joining Nato as a full member could well have been seen as a further slap in the face to those who'd suffered under the Nazi regime. The Soviets might not have been saints, but they were the ones in comtrol of the media since 1945. Propaganda against the west would only increase distrust and general loathing...

So why would the Germans remain in Poland? That's a question I can't answer without spending a lot more time on research. The fact that they are there would probably continue to drive Polish efforts to expel them while inflicting as much damage as they possibly could (not much really since the Poles have limited military resources left in comparison).

The US withdrawal and handover of heavy equipment to the Germans might well taint the US in the eyes of the Poles also. Their may well be less of them about, but handing over tanks, etc to their historical enemies isn't going to sit very well with them...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It might make sense in today's political and social climate, but Poland is still at war with Nato in 2000...

Is Poland still at war with anyone by 2000? Politically, officially maybe yes, but militarily? I think not.

[Legbreaker]

I don't think it's written anywhere in canon that the war officially ends on any front. Even over in China, which was nuked back to the stone age quite early on, the war still "officially" rages.

While the ability of the various participants to continue is questionable, historical influences can't be ignored. The past 4 years of warfare in Europe will have created and increased a lot of bad blood - I can see a large number of war crimes and atrocities being committed by all sides (torture, prisoner executions, etc) as "payback" for issues both real and imagined.

The situation in Yugoslavia in the early to mid 90's is similar to the way I see much of Europe in T2K. Everyone with a grudge, no matter how minor, is probably going to pick up the nearest weapon and do something about it. With the lack of effective government and political systems (a mixed blessing IMO), it's not like laws will be enforced and "legal" punishments on perpetrators carried out.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well there are couple things. The western one third of today Poland was once part of Germany before WWII. Also well as part of East Prussia that the Soviet claim as part of their prize after WWII.

Then you add into account that Poland for centuries was an occupied nations that have surrounded her for centuries. Before the Soviets it was the Prussians, Russians, and Austrians who had carved up Poland before WWI over the years. At time when Sweden was what we would call a super power by today standards, they to were an occupying nation of present day Poland.

After the war many of the of the Eastern European countries like Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Bulgaria, portions of Yugoslavia, and portions of Romania wouldn't be in to much of hurry to accept help from any of the former allies and enemies since they had been subject to occupation. Places like Hungary and Austria wouldn't be much better off since they were both at one time the power behind many of the occupations over the years.

No I see Poland going through a period where who ever finally comes to control over most of what is/was Poland would be very interested in keeping Germany, Austria, Hungary, and the Soviet Union off balance for some time to come. More so than the Soviet Union and Germany would want each other.

What the Polish have going for them is the only country who left standing who may want to help them is the French. Again how much would they trust the French if at all. The Poles in general would accept what limited foreign troops, especially if they aren't in control of the militia they are part of.

[Legbreaker]

That's a good point about the Poles possibly accepting French aid - it's been a while since French soldiers tromped over Poland (back in Napoleons day I think).
However, would France be even remotely intested in helping Poland? What's in it for them...?

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That's a good point about the Poles possibly accepting French aid - it's been a while since French soldiers tromped over Poland (back in Napoleons day I think).
However, would France be even remotely intested in helping Poland? What's in it for them...?

Two things...
1. Any country that stands in between them and Soviet that able to cause them a headache if they should ever get ready to drive west again would be a good thing for them. Even if the Soviets could bypass them they would like an ally to help or in most cases to go down with them.

2. With Poland gaining strength, both France and Poland could keep a eye on Germany and the like to make sure they don't get strong enough to attack either of them.

France is in a very unique position where it can help other nations who could be in position to keep others at disadvantage for some time to come. It not in great shape, but it still for lack of better term it is now the super power in the t2k timeline.

[Cdnwolf]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Interesting thread...I read Rising 44 in 2003 when I was working in Warsaw...great book, slightly surreal reading it in the City where it happened...

I think a better read would be Mila 18 by Leon Uris about the ghetto uprising.. and the background history of the real reason the Uprising failed...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

France and Poland have history that the Poles remember as being good for Poland, this may motivate them to initiate and/or accept talks with France especially with France playing no part in NATO operations.

Both links below discuss the effect Napoleonic France had on the formation of the Polish national identity.
http://www.questia.com/googleScholar...cId=5001340286
http://www.poland.gov.pl/Napoleonic,...and,,7288.html
The fact that their anthem specifically names Napoleon Bonaparte as showing them the way to victory is an indicator of the influence the Poles believe he had on their quest for nationhood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_Is_Not_Yet_Lost The Polish national anthem