Mechanized Squad Changes
 

So I have found many different numbers as to the size of a squad of Infantry in the US. Are squads designed around the vehicle intended to carry them?

IE - M2A3 carries a 7 man squad vs an LAV-25 carries an 8 man squad?

That must suck logistically no?

No, they're not.

In the Army, all squads are 9 men, they might just get broken into multiple tracks.

In the Marines, they're 13 strong (3 fire teams and a squad leader), and I assume they get broken up across multiple vehicles as well.

Ok so then if the squad is 9 men, the M2A3 carries 7, that means each squad needs 2 M2A3 to carry them? Or are they considered crew of the vehicle as well when mounted?

7 as passengers
2 as crewman (gunner and...)

Side note: That Fort Know PDF you linked to me, perhaps I am missing something there but doesn't page B-20 or 89 of the Adobe show only 7?

No, they're not part of the crew. Crew consists of the driver, gunner and the Bradley Commander.

The three dismount squads will divide amongst the four tracks in the platoon based on mission and experience and skill levels of the NCOs more than anything else. You don't want to put a weak team leader in the track without the squad leader if you can avoid it, but that is where the art of leadership trumps the science of it.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, you have the FEB 08 dated version, yes? On page B-20 I have the IBCT Rifle company.

You're talking about the section in the top right hand corner, (X9) Rifle Squad Para 03, right?

Rewrite that in your brain to be:

9 x Rifle Squads, Paragraph 03 (of the official MTOE document)

6 x SSG 11B3G (SQUAD LEADER) C
3 x SSG 11B3O (SQUAD LEADER) C
9 x SGT 11B2O (FIRE TEAM LEADER) C
9 x SGT 11B2G (FIRE TEAM LEADER) C
18 x SP4 11B1O (AUTO RIFLEMAN) SAW
18 x SP4 11B1O (GRENADIER) C
18 x PFC 11B1O (RIFLEMAN) C

The G behind the numbers means they're Ranger tabbed without Airborne.

Add the 6 + 3 + 9 + 9 + 18 + 18 + 18 = 81. 81/9 = 9 man squads.

The color-coding is not to insult your intelligence. A Major sat me and my four fellow company commanders down and gave us a class on how to read an MTOE at my last unit. It's not an easy thing to grasp. This one is easier than a pure document though, the Armor School made it a lot easier for people with this product.

Eddie has far more experience, but I found these two pdfs in the ToE yahoo group

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/

first one is ToE for a Bradley infantry battalion under force 21 structure. (could be the same pdf that Eddie sent you already)

the second pdf is a ToE for M113 infantry battalion.

as far as LAV-25s, are you referring to real world USMC LAV-25 battalions, or the T2k world LAV-25 battalions that are assigned to the 9th Motorized and the Light Infantry Divisons?

the USMC guys (jester, et al) can go into better detail regarding USMC LAVs.

Not sure how a squad would break down in a T2k Army LAV equiped unit. Maybe similar to how they break down for Bradleys (1 fireteam per LAV plus crew)

That BFV (XX1).pdf looks fairly accurate, but there are some things I'd be careful about. It looks like it dumbs down some things and is a little inaccurate with a couple others. Scouts are 11-series, not 19-series, something else multiplied the squad leader by 4, but it'll work for your purposes, I think, kalos. Besides, you just want a guide, right? Or you can continue using the Fort Knox Special.

Holy crap that color coding makes it SO much easier...lol. Now it makes sense. :P

The copy I have is June 07...but it gives me alot more information then I had before. Thanks.

I can get any of those links from Yahoo...and I will be dammed if I get an account just to view them. :(

Thanks guys...

No problem. Happy to help.

Another thing to consider, you keep saying M2A3, but the A3 wasn't around in time for the Twilight War. I don't know if you're fudging it or if the modules accelerated it, but just something to think about as well. It would have still been the M2A2 (ODS) version.

((Coincidentally, I just graduated from the M2A2 (ODS) Mechanized Leader's Course in July, and the M2A3 Mechanized Leader's Course 13 AUG. 3rd ID still haven't received their A3s yet.))

I was using that as a vehicle carrying 7 men instead of the Stryker's 9. Would the total number of vehicles assigned to the platoon change based on the type of vehicle?

The M113 holds 11...meaning you would only need 3 to carry 3 squads.

Or would you bump the number of squads perhaps?

Remember, you chastised me for remembering the setting. Now it's my turn for you to do the same.

I would say that both would be reduced but personnel needs drive equipment needs.

You really don't want to drop a squad below 7. It's possible to do it, but problematic to say the least. 7-11 is a good number, with 9 being ideal. If you can't reach that minimum, start consolidating bodies. If you go over, start adding more squads.

As far as vehicles, I told you that I had 28 assigned and 20-22 present at any given time...what I left out was that I had 3 ICV Strykers, 3 ATGM Strykers, 1 FSV Stryker, 1 MRAP, and 2 Humvees assigned to my platoon.

At any given time, we'd only roll in 3 vehicles, preferably the ICVs, barring special circumstances. Next in priority was the FSV, then the MRAP, then the ATGMs. The Humvees never left the main FOB, much less our JSS.

Assuming I still had 9 man squads then....

One unit using Styker's...
One unit using M113...

I am using Styker's to make it easier for me to follow on your PDF... :P

Or even A-Zero Bradleys, which would have probably been a big part of the fleet if we hand't seen a post-Cold War draw down in force strength, I suspect.

Here's a link to FM7-7 which is the field manual for M113 mechanized infantry under the mid-80s MTOE's which would probably have been in effect for any units still equipped with 113s for actual infantry use during the Twilight War.

It is different than FM7-7J which covered the Bradley mech infantry platoon and squad in some ways, owing to the different capabilities of the two vehicles (including seating).

Basically, under the J series (most recent MTOE at the time) organization, and M113 squad was nine men, including a two man vehicle crew. Under the earlier H series organization the squad had two extra guys -- a dedicated M60 MG team.

I can remember squeezing 14 men with full packs, etc into the back of an Australian M113. With the addition of a small one man turret, practical seat capacity is reduced to just nine very close friends. Those five extras made it extremely "cosy".

The designations in the T2K vehicle guides might well be in error compared to current real world designations. I'm no expert and could be completely wrong though. One example that stands out in my memory is the T2K M1A2 Abrams "Giraffe", a vehicle that was never fielded in RL (in terms of that unmanned main gun turret). There ended up being an M1A2 in RL didn't there? Just a very different looking vehicle.

Yes, the real M1A2 doesn't look anything like the T2K Giraffe with the remote turret.

The evolution of the Bradley in T2K versus real life is an interesting one, since Desert Storm experience generated a lot of improvements, and depending on the timeline used that war doesn't even happen. (Though I suppose whatever fictional military experience the US military had in the T2K timeline leading up to the war itself might have suggested similar improvements -- god knows anyone who ever climbed in the back of an original pattern infantry Brad could have pointed out the seating arrangement had obviously been designed by a graduate of a reputable clown college . . .)

Your giving them too much education credit :D

One thing that hasn't been pointed out. The difference between M2 and M113 Mech Battalions was the M113s were suppose to support the troops form the rear and not be in the middle of the fire fight. While the M2 were made with the mind set they would move forward with the troops.

I can understand the confusion. 28 seats for dismounts in M2 platoon as oppose to the old M113 where there 36 seats for dismounts. There was a similar issue when the Marine purchased the LAV-25 in that it had 7 dismounts too. The new Strykers ICV have gone back to 9 seats...

If you were to use the M2 Mechanized Platoon as in V1 from what the GDW had access to the M2 Platoon would be organized into 2 strong squads or three week squads depending on the organization used from unit to unit. Also remember while mounted the Platoon Leader and Plt Sgt would each command a Bradley with one of them having E-5 who would jump into the commander seat when the dismounts left the Bradleys, while one of them would take command of the dismount element.

One thing to remember is regardless of the vehicle, in theory the dismount element would have access to M60/M240 and anti-tank weapons as well as ammo stored aboard for the M4/M16s/M249s. The ICV/IFVs were in theory to add their firepower and to help make up lack of man-power of organized weapon squad on foot.

Since 2003 I believe lot of stuff has been standardized much more so than before due day in and day out operations in Iraq. Which helps since before Desert Shield/Storm it was largely theory and with 100 hours of practice it was hard to figure what work and didn't with the M2 Platoon organization. Also in 2003 they had realized the both in the Army and Marine Corps, that Mechanized units would have to rely on more vehicle than what was in the standard platoon.

With the Marine Corps, it depends the LAV-25 units would be spread out like M2 unit, but this was more of recon/rapid reaction force type unit. The Marine Corps also had the Amphibious Assault vehicles in which they could carry Squad plus in them, and they were used in the pushed to Baghdad. There were stories of Company Command being in HMMWVs and 2 or 3 of these vehicles and other HMMWVs being used to carry Platoons of the rifle company. One commander recounted how in one fire fight his driver panic and turned the HMMWV where his side of the HMMWV was expose to enemy fire....

It is a rare, wise, and skilled junior enlisted soldier who has the presence of mind to ensure there's an officer between himself and hostile fire . . .

When an APC is disabled, does the crew become part of the infantry squad? I believe this was the practice in the US during WWII. If a halftrack was knocked out, the crew dismounted one of the MGs (a tripod was normally carried as cargo for such a situation) and fight along with the soldiers the halftrack had been carrying. What is the SOP for modern APC crews?

(On a related note, on most WWII tanks the coaxial gun could be dismounted from the tank and used by the crew away from it (again, a tripod was carried))

A Mech Infantry and Stryker Infantry organization is significantly different.

In a Mech Infantry Platoon, the Bradley Commanders are the four senior most men in the Platoon: the PL, the PSG, and the two Section Sergeants (both senior E6s). If a vehicle is unusable, then that guy should take command, but let the Squad Leader of the dismounts lead his squad. "Hey, take your squad and secure that," as opposed to "SSG X, I need you, Y, Z, and A to go and establish a base of fire while B, C, and D do that."

In a Stryker unit, the Vehicle Commander is the dismounted Squad Leader, the PL, or the PSG depending on the truck. MTOE says that the Gunner is the Vehicle Commander, but they're usually an E5 or a Corporal (rarely a Specialist, but that's a very, very senior E4 in those cases). So if the vehicle is rendered inoperable, then the VC is already the guy in charge on the ground and there should be no conflicts with just incorporating that gunner and driver into the dismounts.

I was out of the conventional/Big Army world for the past while, but when did the scout platoon in a mech infantry battalion stop being 19Ds?

Since at least 2006 when I switched to the O side of the house.

Basically about the time when each Brigade started to organize Cavalry Squadron using personnel from unit that had been re-flagged from the Infantry and Armor units. When they went from Brigade to Unit of Action, and onto new Combat Brigade Teams system.

One has to do something with the spare Infantrymen that one milling around...lol

How did the already-present 19Ds react to being reflagged as Infantry? I remember they had a lot of pride about being sort of special units of Armor.

Makes sense. 2004-8 was when I was a support guy in an SF unit, and now up here in the AK ARNG we don't have any infantry battalions at all (much less mech) and I'm in some Corps level asset Cavalry unit whose exact mission seems a tad bit nebulous down at the section sergeant level.

They didn't get reflagged, they just got reassigned to a RSTA or to an Armor unit.

It was one of those thing such as in the 82nd and 101st Divisions for example one or more Infantry Battalions were flagged to Cavalry Squadron (RSTA)... When this happen the Scout Platoons of the Infantry were slowly replace the 19 series troops with 11 series troops and the 19 moved to the Cavalry Squadron. Conversely the 11 series troops from the former Infantry Battalion turn Cavalry Squadron were move Infantry units either as regular rifle man or one who had on the job training as scout for the Infantry Battalion Scout Platoon.

One has to remember when the US Army went from Pre-2003 organization to one of Unit of Action and then update Brigade Combat Team concept. The Cavalry Squadron for each Brigade was mix bag of Infantry and Armor Battalion that had been re-flagged and newly activated Squadrons. While in some units like the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team and other Separate Brigades the Cavalry Troop either expanded (173rd) or a unit was re-flagged. In many cases at times there were more 11 series filling slot that were 19 series slots or units were short of the 19 series personnel to fill slots.

One of the reasons why it took almost 5 years that on paper the Army said had been done in 3 years. It part of the reason why reading the Order of Battle for some of the CBTs seem more cobbled together than the Divisions that fought in Desert Storm....

Then one has to remember that there have been Armor and other units who have be re-tasked to operate as Motorized Infantry or Foot Infantry while over too. I remember Armor units going over to perform road patrol in HMMWV and Artillery units that would during the day give fire support and at night the same unit would be conducting foot infantry patrols.

With the units in Iraq many of the units have equipment over the TO&E due to the broad range of missions the unit maybe called upon to perform. One of the nice things is that at Platoon and Company level the units have more men, vehicle and equipment than they would before 2003. On the down-side there steep learning curve...

Conserning the LAV-25's in the Marines the only guys that rode in them was their scouts to my knowledge. Marine infantry rifle companies rode in Am Tracs. How many guys you can fit in a Am Trac's is a good question. Usually it's how many you can cram in there plain and simple. It's not just your squad sometimes you may also get attachments too. Inside the the vehicle you have 3 benches one port, one starboard, and one between them in the center. You also have floor on either side of the center bench.

Yes, the going off from information provided form the vehicle guide and what from various sources of the media. There are sundry things such as this I don't claim to be an expert on, thanks for the information.

In vehicle guide it listed as much like the Mech Battalions, and the Marine Division had Recon Battalions. Thanks for point out that is mainly used as scout for the Rifle Regimental HQs and Divisional HQ within the Division.

Yeah from what I recall you could squeeze a Marine Platoon with attach personel in like two Am Tracks in a pinch... Three would be better to give breathing room and addition ammo load, but that goes out the window at times..

Whats this AmTrack reference...is that the PIG thing from Humber?

I know in WWII it was short for "amphibious tractor" and referred to a series of vehicles used to put troops ashore (and sometimes farther).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Vehicle_Tracked

I believe what he was referring to is this, a descendant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibious_Assault_Vehicle

This would be the vehicles question. A battalion or more said vehicle could attached to Marine Division and then the vehicles are farmed out to the Battalion as needed....

Yes, that's the thing. ;)

It's common slang for the AAVP-7 these days.

Yeah couldn't remember the what it was. One of those things when Vehicle book isn't next to the computer...

From an organizational standpoint, it would be very interesting to see what would happen if the balloon went up in a major way in one or more locations.

Webstral

Webstral, you know all to well what would happen. The idea of a Division that has trained together would fight together mentality would go out the window much faster than the 12 month it took for them to realize after Operation Iraqi Freedom...lol Task Forces that you and Eddie have mention would be the norm. Especially if we went to war with force organized in the Pre-Desert Storm way with reliance on Round-Out Brigades. Not a slam against the NG, for we all know there was no reason why some of the units had to repeat training they had only completed recently other than mistrust between Regular Army Officer and their misconception on what the train of the NG was back then.

The only Division that would be fighting as complete Division without major reorganization before they get to battle would have been the 2nd ID, 3rd MD, 8th MD, 1st AD, and 3rd AD. After those units the 82nd and 101st may be deployed intact. After that everyone unit will have so many different components than they had before the balloon went up, they wouldn't be able to tell they were the same pre-war unit. Much like that happen in 1939-1941, when a soon to be soft spoken General after being ask to send a Cadre to create a new division responded to the order with an remark he would be happy to send one, but he would need a Cadre sent to his Division to reform it. This was still when the US War Department still was calculating on making 300+ Divisions and part of the reason why only 16-18 Armor Divisions were activated out of several more that could of been, they were were suppose to have 2 Armor and 1 Mechanized Regiment of 3 Battalions. In the end only the 2nd and 3rd Armor survived that organization and the rest were formed into 3 combat command with 3 Armor and 3 Mechanized Battalions (ironically when all assets were add they looked like the Heavy Brigades of today's Army). While the other Armor Battalions were used to reinforcement to Infantry Division and to make independent Armor Battalions that would be allocated to Corps and then the Corps Commander would assigned them to individual Divisions as need.

Another thing to note, is that many of the Divisions in Europe from time to time would have Regiments and Combat Commands from other Divisions attached on the regular basis to either replace their own Regiment or Combat Commands that were not ready for combat due to loses. There were time when Division that was suppose to be in the rear for rest and refit would have one Regiment or Combat Command and the support unit there while the other Regiments or Combat Command would be detached working for someone else. Even the 82nd and 101st had extra Airborne Regiment attached to them from the start of the war. They were suppose to go to war with 2 Glider Regiments and 1 Airborne Regiment. By D-Day it was realized shortly afterward that it should be more like 1 Glider and 2 Airborne regiments. The Airborne seem the way to go since the Gliders were so iffy and some people wanted to go 3 Airborne and completely disband the glider units, but with artillery and jeep being deployed gliders only at that time, they still had function. The 506th PIR depending on the source you look at was only attached to the 101st, even though it largely ignore fact until sometime in 1945 when the 2nd Glider Infantry Regiment was finally removed and sent to Airborne school and another Airborne Regiment was attached as the 4th Infantry Regimental Combat Team for the remainder of the war.

Some other thoughts...

Here is quick look...just off the top of my head...
in Europe.

US 7th Army, Europe
197th Mechanized Brigade (7th Army Mobile Reserve)
1st Mechanized Division(-)*
4-1st Mechanized Brigdae (Aviation)
1st Mechanized Artillery Brigade
1st DISCOM
4th Mechanized Division*
4-4th Mechanized Brigade (Aviation)
4th Mechanized Artillery Brigade
4th DISCOM
5th Mechanized Division*
4-5th Mechanized Brigade (Aviation)
5th Mechanized Artillery Brigade
5th DISCOM
V Corps
3rd Armor Division
1-3rd Armor Brigade (Armor)
2-3rd Armor Brigade (Armor)
3-3rd Armor Brigade (Armor)
4-3rd Armor Brigade (Aviation)
3rd Armor Artillery Brigade
3rd DISCOM
2-5th Mechanzied Brigade(Mechanized)**
8th Mechanized Division
1-8th Mechanized Brigade (Armor)
2-8th Mechanized Brigade (Mechanized)
3-8th Mechanized Brigade (Mechanized)
4-8th Mechanized Brigade (Aviation)
8th Mechanized Artillery Brigade
8th DISCOM
1-1st Mecahanized Brigade (Armor)**
11th Armor Cavalry Regiment
11th Aviation Brigade
VII Corps
1st Armor Division
1-1st Armor Brigade (Armor)
2-1st Armor Brigade (Armor)
3-1st Armor Brigade (Mechanized)
4-1st Armor Brigade (Aviation)
1st Armor Artillery Brigade
1st Armor DISCOM
1-4th Mecahanized Brigade (Armor)**
3rd Mechanized Division
1-3rd Mechanized Brigade (Armor)
2-3rd Mechanized Brigade (Mechanized)
3-3rd Mechanized Brigade (Mechanized)
3rd Mechanized Artillery Brigade
3rd Mechanized DISCOM
2-4th Mechanized Brigade (Armor)**
2nd Armor Cavalry Regiment
12th Avaitioin Brigade
III Corps
1st Cavalry Division
1-1st Cavalry Brigade (Armor)
2-1st Cavalry Brigade (Armor)
4-1st Cavalry Brigade (Aviation)
1st Cavalry Artillery Brigade
1st Cavalry DISCOM
1-1st Mecahnized Brigade (Armor)**
3-1st Mechanized Brigade (Mechanized)**
2nd Armor Division
1-2nd Armor Brigade (Armor)
2-2nd Armor Brigade (Armor)
3-2nd Armor Brigade (Mechanized)
4-2nd Armor Brigade (Aviation)
2nd Armor Artillery Brigade
2nd Armor DISCOM
1-5th Mechanized Brigade (Armor)**
3rd Armor Cavalry Regiment