Mechanized Squad Changes

[kalos72]

So I have found many different numbers as to the size of a squad of Infantry in the US. Are squads designed around the vehicle intended to carry them?

IE - M2A3 carries a 7 man squad vs an LAV-25 carries an 8 man squad?

That must suck logistically no?

[Eddie]

No, they're not.

In the Army, all squads are 9 men, they might just get broken into multiple tracks.

In the Marines, they're 13 strong (3 fire teams and a squad leader), and I assume they get broken up across multiple vehicles as well.

[kalos72]

Ok so then if the squad is 9 men, the M2A3 carries 7, that means each squad needs 2 M2A3 to carry them? Or are they considered crew of the vehicle as well when mounted?

7 as passengers
2 as crewman (gunner and...)

Side note: That Fort Know PDF you linked to me, perhaps I am missing something there but doesn't page B-20 or 89 of the Adobe show only 7?

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Ok so then if the squad is 9 men, the M2A3 carries 7, that means each squad needs 2 M2A3 to carry them? Or are they considered crew of the vehicle as well when mounted?

7 as passengers
2 as crewman (gunner and...)

No, they're not part of the crew. Crew consists of the driver, gunner and the Bradley Commander.

The three dismount squads will divide amongst the four tracks in the platoon based on mission and experience and skill levels of the NCOs more than anything else. You don't want to put a weak team leader in the track without the squad leader if you can avoid it, but that is where the art of leadership trumps the science of it.

Side note: That Fort Know PDF you linked to me, perhaps I am missing something there but doesn't page B-20 or 89 of the Adobe show only 7?

Just to make sure we're on the same page, you have the FEB 08 dated version, yes? On page B-20 I have the IBCT Rifle company.

You're talking about the section in the top right hand corner, (X9) Rifle Squad Para 03, right?

Rewrite that in your brain to be:

9 x Rifle Squads, Paragraph 03 (of the official MTOE document)

6 x SSG 11B3G (SQUAD LEADER) C
3 x SSG 11B3O (SQUAD LEADER) C
9 x SGT 11B2O (FIRE TEAM LEADER) C
9 x SGT 11B2G (FIRE TEAM LEADER) C
18 x SP4 11B1O (AUTO RIFLEMAN) SAW
18 x SP4 11B1O (GRENADIER) C
18 x PFC 11B1O (RIFLEMAN) C

The G behind the numbers means they're Ranger tabbed without Airborne.

Add the 6 + 3 + 9 + 9 + 18 + 18 + 18 = 81. 81/9 = 9 man squads.

The color-coding is not to insult your intelligence. A Major sat me and my four fellow company commanders down and gave us a class on how to read an MTOE at my last unit. It's not an easy thing to grasp. This one is easier than a pure document though, the Armor School made it a lot easier for people with this product.

[boogiedowndonovan]

Eddie has far more experience, but I found these two pdfs in the ToE yahoo group

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/

first one is ToE for a Bradley infantry battalion under force 21 structure. (could be the same pdf that Eddie sent you already)

the second pdf is a ToE for M113 infantry battalion.

as far as LAV-25s, are you referring to real world USMC LAV-25 battalions, or the T2k world LAV-25 battalions that are assigned to the 9th Motorized and the Light Infantry Divisons?

the USMC guys (jester, et al) can go into better detail regarding USMC LAVs.

Not sure how a squad would break down in a T2k Army LAV equiped unit. Maybe similar to how they break down for Bradleys (1 fireteam per LAV plus crew)

[Eddie]

That BFV (XX1).pdf looks fairly accurate, but there are some things I'd be careful about. It looks like it dumbs down some things and is a little inaccurate with a couple others. Scouts are 11-series, not 19-series, something else multiplied the squad leader by 4, but it'll work for your purposes, I think, kalos. Besides, you just want a guide, right? Or you can continue using the Fort Knox Special.

[kalos72]

Holy crap that color coding makes it SO much easier...lol. Now it makes sense. :P

The copy I have is June 07...but it gives me alot more information then I had before. Thanks.

I can get any of those links from Yahoo...and I will be dammed if I get an account just to view them.

Thanks guys...

[Eddie]

No problem. Happy to help.

[Eddie]

Another thing to consider, you keep saying M2A3, but the A3 wasn't around in time for the Twilight War. I don't know if you're fudging it or if the modules accelerated it, but just something to think about as well. It would have still been the M2A2 (ODS) version.

((Coincidentally, I just graduated from the M2A2 (ODS) Mechanized Leader's Course in July, and the M2A3 Mechanized Leader's Course 13 AUG. 3rd ID still haven't received their A3s yet.))

[kalos72]

I was using that as a vehicle carrying 7 men instead of the Stryker's 9. Would the total number of vehicles assigned to the platoon change based on the type of vehicle?

The M113 holds 11...meaning you would only need 3 to carry 3 squads.

Or would you bump the number of squads perhaps?

[Eddie]

Remember, you chastised me for remembering the setting. Now it's my turn for you to do the same.

I would say that both would be reduced but personnel needs drive equipment needs.

You really don't want to drop a squad below 7. It's possible to do it, but problematic to say the least. 7-11 is a good number, with 9 being ideal. If you can't reach that minimum, start consolidating bodies. If you go over, start adding more squads.

As far as vehicles, I told you that I had 28 assigned and 20-22 present at any given time...what I left out was that I had 3 ICV Strykers, 3 ATGM Strykers, 1 FSV Stryker, 1 MRAP, and 2 Humvees assigned to my platoon.

At any given time, we'd only roll in 3 vehicles, preferably the ICVs, barring special circumstances. Next in priority was the FSV, then the MRAP, then the ATGMs. The Humvees never left the main FOB, much less our JSS.

[kalos72]

Assuming I still had 9 man squads then....

One unit using Styker's...
One unit using M113...

I am using Styker's to make it easier for me to follow on your PDF... :P

[HorseSoldier]

I don't know if you're fudging it or if the modules accelerated it, but just something to think about as well. It would have still been the M2A2 (ODS) version.

Or even A-Zero Bradleys, which would have probably been a big part of the fleet if we hand't seen a post-Cold War draw down in force strength, I suspect.

The M113 holds 11...meaning you would only need 3 to carry 3 squads.

Here's a link to FM7-7 which is the field manual for M113 mechanized infantry under the mid-80s MTOE's which would probably have been in effect for any units still equipped with 113s for actual infantry use during the Twilight War.

It is different than FM7-7J which covered the Bradley mech infantry platoon and squad in some ways, owing to the different capabilities of the two vehicles (including seating).

Basically, under the J series (most recent MTOE at the time) organization, and M113 squad was nine men, including a two man vehicle crew. Under the earlier H series organization the squad had two extra guys -- a dedicated M60 MG team.

[Legbreaker]

I can remember squeezing 14 men with full packs, etc into the back of an Australian M113. With the addition of a small one man turret, practical seat capacity is reduced to just nine very close friends. Those five extras made it extremely "cosy".

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Eddie

Another thing to consider, you keep saying M2A3, but the A3 wasn't around in time for the Twilight War. I don't know if you're fudging it or if the modules accelerated it, but just something to think about as well. It would have still been the M2A2 (ODS) version.

The designations in the T2K vehicle guides might well be in error compared to current real world designations. I'm no expert and could be completely wrong though. One example that stands out in my memory is the T2K M1A2 Abrams "Giraffe", a vehicle that was never fielded in RL (in terms of that unmanned main gun turret). There ended up being an M1A2 in RL didn't there? Just a very different looking vehicle.

[HorseSoldier]

Yes, the real M1A2 doesn't look anything like the T2K Giraffe with the remote turret.

The evolution of the Bradley in T2K versus real life is an interesting one, since Desert Storm experience generated a lot of improvements, and depending on the timeline used that war doesn't even happen. (Though I suppose whatever fictional military experience the US military had in the T2K timeline leading up to the war itself might have suggested similar improvements -- god knows anyone who ever climbed in the back of an original pattern infantry Brad could have pointed out the seating arrangement had obviously been designed by a graduate of a reputable clown college . . .)

[Gamer]

god knows anyone who ever climbed in the back of an original pattern infantry Brad could have pointed out the seating arrangement had obviously been designed by a graduate of a reputable clown college .

Your giving them too much education credit

[Abbott Shaull]

One thing that hasn't been pointed out. The difference between M2 and M113 Mech Battalions was the M113s were suppose to support the troops form the rear and not be in the middle of the fire fight. While the M2 were made with the mind set they would move forward with the troops.

I can understand the confusion. 28 seats for dismounts in M2 platoon as oppose to the old M113 where there 36 seats for dismounts. There was a similar issue when the Marine purchased the LAV-25 in that it had 7 dismounts too. The new Strykers ICV have gone back to 9 seats...

If you were to use the M2 Mechanized Platoon as in V1 from what the GDW had access to the M2 Platoon would be organized into 2 strong squads or three week squads depending on the organization used from unit to unit. Also remember while mounted the Platoon Leader and Plt Sgt would each command a Bradley with one of them having E-5 who would jump into the commander seat when the dismounts left the Bradleys, while one of them would take command of the dismount element.

One thing to remember is regardless of the vehicle, in theory the dismount element would have access to M60/M240 and anti-tank weapons as well as ammo stored aboard for the M4/M16s/M249s. The ICV/IFVs were in theory to add their firepower and to help make up lack of man-power of organized weapon squad on foot.

Since 2003 I believe lot of stuff has been standardized much more so than before due day in and day out operations in Iraq. Which helps since before Desert Shield/Storm it was largely theory and with 100 hours of practice it was hard to figure what work and didn't with the M2 Platoon organization. Also in 2003 they had realized the both in the Army and Marine Corps, that Mechanized units would have to rely on more vehicle than what was in the standard platoon.

With the Marine Corps, it depends the LAV-25 units would be spread out like M2 unit, but this was more of recon/rapid reaction force type unit. The Marine Corps also had the Amphibious Assault vehicles in which they could carry Squad plus in them, and they were used in the pushed to Baghdad. There were stories of Company Command being in HMMWVs and 2 or 3 of these vehicles and other HMMWVs being used to carry Platoons of the rifle company. One commander recounted how in one fire fight his driver panic and turned the HMMWV where his side of the HMMWV was expose to enemy fire....

[HorseSoldier]

One commander recounted how in one fire fight his driver panic and turned the HMMWV where his side of the HMMWV was expose to enemy fire....

It is a rare, wise, and skilled junior enlisted soldier who has the presence of mind to ensure there's an officer between himself and hostile fire . . .

[copeab]

When an APC is disabled, does the crew become part of the infantry squad? I believe this was the practice in the US during WWII. If a halftrack was knocked out, the crew dismounted one of the MGs (a tripod was normally carried as cargo for such a situation) and fight along with the soldiers the halftrack had been carrying. What is the SOP for modern APC crews?

(On a related note, on most WWII tanks the coaxial gun could be dismounted from the tank and used by the crew away from it (again, a tripod was carried))

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by copeab

What is the SOP for modern APC crews?

A Mech Infantry and Stryker Infantry organization is significantly different.

In a Mech Infantry Platoon, the Bradley Commanders are the four senior most men in the Platoon: the PL, the PSG, and the two Section Sergeants (both senior E6s). If a vehicle is unusable, then that guy should take command, but let the Squad Leader of the dismounts lead his squad. "Hey, take your squad and secure that," as opposed to "SSG X, I need you, Y, Z, and A to go and establish a base of fire while B, C, and D do that."

In a Stryker unit, the Vehicle Commander is the dismounted Squad Leader, the PL, or the PSG depending on the truck. MTOE says that the Gunner is the Vehicle Commander, but they're usually an E5 or a Corporal (rarely a Specialist, but that's a very, very senior E4 in those cases). So if the vehicle is rendered inoperable, then the VC is already the guy in charge on the ground and there should be no conflicts with just incorporating that gunner and driver into the dismounts.

[HorseSoldier]

That BFV (XX1).pdf looks fairly accurate, but there are some things I'd be careful about. It looks like it dumbs down some things and is a little inaccurate with a couple others. Scouts are 11-series, not 19-series, something else multiplied the squad leader by 4

I was out of the conventional/Big Army world for the past while, but when did the scout platoon in a mech infantry battalion stop being 19Ds?

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I was out of the conventional/Big Army world for the past while, but when did the scout platoon in a mech infantry battalion stop being 19Ds?

Since at least 2006 when I switched to the O side of the house.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Eddie

Since at least 2006 when I switched to the O side of the house.

Basically about the time when each Brigade started to organize Cavalry Squadron using personnel from unit that had been re-flagged from the Infantry and Armor units. When they went from Brigade to Unit of Action, and onto new Combat Brigade Teams system.

One has to do something with the spare Infantrymen that one milling around...lol

[pmulcahy11b]

How did the already-present 19Ds react to being reflagged as Infantry? I remember they had a lot of pride about being sort of special units of Armor.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Basically about the time when each Brigade started to organize Cavalry Squadron using personnel from unit that had been re-flagged from the Infantry and Armor units. When they went from Brigade to Unit of Action, and onto new Combat Brigade Teams system.

One has to do something with the spare Infantrymen that one milling around...lol

Makes sense. 2004-8 was when I was a support guy in an SF unit, and now up here in the AK ARNG we don't have any infantry battalions at all (much less mech) and I'm in some Corps level asset Cavalry unit whose exact mission seems a tad bit nebulous down at the section sergeant level.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

How did the already-present 19Ds react to being reflagged as Infantry? I remember they had a lot of pride about being sort of special units of Armor.

They didn't get reflagged, they just got reassigned to a RSTA or to an Armor unit.

[Abbott Shaull]

It was one of those thing such as in the 82nd and 101st Divisions for example one or more Infantry Battalions were flagged to Cavalry Squadron (RSTA)... When this happen the Scout Platoons of the Infantry were slowly replace the 19 series troops with 11 series troops and the 19 moved to the Cavalry Squadron. Conversely the 11 series troops from the former Infantry Battalion turn Cavalry Squadron were move Infantry units either as regular rifle man or one who had on the job training as scout for the Infantry Battalion Scout Platoon.

One has to remember when the US Army went from Pre-2003 organization to one of Unit of Action and then update Brigade Combat Team concept. The Cavalry Squadron for each Brigade was mix bag of Infantry and Armor Battalion that had been re-flagged and newly activated Squadrons. While in some units like the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team and other Separate Brigades the Cavalry Troop either expanded (173rd) or a unit was re-flagged. In many cases at times there were more 11 series filling slot that were 19 series slots or units were short of the 19 series personnel to fill slots.

One of the reasons why it took almost 5 years that on paper the Army said had been done in 3 years. It part of the reason why reading the Order of Battle for some of the CBTs seem more cobbled together than the Divisions that fought in Desert Storm....

Then one has to remember that there have been Armor and other units who have be re-tasked to operate as Motorized Infantry or Foot Infantry while over too. I remember Armor units going over to perform road patrol in HMMWV and Artillery units that would during the day give fire support and at night the same unit would be conducting foot infantry patrols.

With the units in Iraq many of the units have equipment over the TO&E due to the broad range of missions the unit maybe called upon to perform. One of the nice things is that at Platoon and Company level the units have more men, vehicle and equipment than they would before 2003. On the down-side there steep learning curve...

[waiting4something]

Conserning the LAV-25's in the Marines the only guys that rode in them was their scouts to my knowledge. Marine infantry rifle companies rode in Am Tracs. How many guys you can fit in a Am Trac's is a good question. Usually it's how many you can cram in there plain and simple. It's not just your squad sometimes you may also get attachments too. Inside the the vehicle you have 3 benches one port, one starboard, and one between them in the center. You also have floor on either side of the center bench.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yes, the going off from information provided form the vehicle guide and what from various sources of the media. There are sundry things such as this I don't claim to be an expert on, thanks for the information.

In vehicle guide it listed as much like the Mech Battalions, and the Marine Division had Recon Battalions. Thanks for point out that is mainly used as scout for the Rifle Regimental HQs and Divisional HQ within the Division.