The Soviet Cuba Division

[rcaf_777]

Dose anybody have any info on this formation, all I have been able to find is a few reports saying about 2600 troops were left as advisors after the cuba missile crisis.

On another note I think that any Soviet equipment and troops would sent back to Europe before the war started to replace loses of equipment of those lost from the war with China.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well I think it was the imagination of the GDW. Also about what equipment, I don't think they updated much of it. Wonder if the Cuban would liberate the equipment for themselves...

[sglancy12]

Even the original GDW materials refers to the Division Cuba as just an ad hoc amalgamation of the Soviet advisers marooned in Cuba after the nuclear strikes of 1997-1998. It self-designated itself "Division Cuba." In real life, there was never a unit designated "Division Cuba."

Of course, that always seemed to suggest to me that the Division Cuba that found itself marooned in San Antonio would have been made up of a majority of troops older than the typical Soviet recruit and far more technically competent. With all that talent available, San Antonio might have more services working than any other city in Texas.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Abbott Shaull]

Unlike the US and many of allies. Many of the Soviet Technical advisors are civilians and not military trained...

Yes, I remember the unit just adopted the name, but still a very small division even compared by Soviet pre-war standards...

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Wonder if the Cuban would liberate the equipment for themselves...

I would think yes if you go with the statement made in the game. Cuba wanted to get rid of the Soviets in hope of remaining neutral. Then, arming them is their best option to get rid of them. However, I wonder where these T-80s come from?

[Canadian Army]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

However, I wonder where these T-80s come from?

Maybe they were part of this lot:
"In late 1993 Russia signed a contract with the People's Republic of China for the sale of 200 T-80U MBTs for evaluation. For unknown reasons only 50 were delivered." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-80#Pe...ublic_of_China)

[Mohoender]

Interesting good point

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Canadian Army

Maybe they were part of this lot:
"In late 1993 Russia signed a contract with the People's Republic of China for the sale of 200 T-80U MBTs for evaluation. For unknown reasons only 50 were delivered." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-80#Pe...ublic_of_China)

Makes one wonder how the T-80 export model fared against the "home-consumption" model in the Sino-Soviet clash?

[Olefin]

An interesting link that could bring some light on what the division might have been composed of

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-09-...1_soviet-union

"MOSCOW — President Mikhail S. Gorbachev announced Wednesday that he has decided to begin withdrawing Soviet troops from Cuba, winding down a 32-year military alliance with the Western Hemisphere's only Communist regime.

Secretary of State James A. Baker III hailed the move as "a very substantial gesture" that would help Gorbachev win economic aid from the West.

"We will soon begin discussions with the Cuban leadership about the withdrawal of the Soviet training brigade in Cuba," Gorbachev told reporters at the Kremlin after meeting with Baker for more than two hours. He said he expects that the brigade will leave Cuba in the "near future."

Gorbachev said the Soviet Union has about 11,000 military personnel in Cuba. Other officials said the training brigade he mentioned included fewer than 3,000, or about one-fourth of the total."

it goes on to say

"The withdrawal of the training brigade announced by Gorbachev would still leave as many as 8,000 Soviet troops on the island, including a motorized rifle brigade of about 3,000 and an unknown number of military intelligence personnel.

Gorbachev's figure of 11,000 for Soviet troop strength in Cuba was significantly higher than most Western estimates, which run from 7,700 to 9,000.

The Soviet military uses Cuba as a major base for electronic eavesdropping on the United States and Latin America, as a facility for resupplying submarines that patrol the U.S. coast and as a landing point for Backfire bombers. It is unclear from Gorbachev's remarks whether those functions would be affected by his cut"


Another link I found is this http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...ollapsing-cuba

It mentions the following: " In September Gorbachev announced that the Soviet Union would pull its 11,000-man military brigade out of Cuba—a figure subsequently explained to include 3,000 combat troops, 3,000 signal intelligence personnel, 3,500 military advisers and some civilians in military-related roles"


So at the very least you are looking at a 3000-3500 man training brigade and a motorized rifle regiment of 3000 men along with those manning the eavesdropping facility (3000 strong) and the naval personnel that manned the resupply facility for a total of 11,000 men.

That, combined with withdrawn personnel from various embassies in the area and possibly KGB and GRU personnel who were in Cuba would make for enough manpower for sure for a division.

If you look at what is written about them in the Texas module you can see they had a mix of BTR-70's and BMP's, with the BTR-70's being more prevalent which suggests it was a BTR Motorized Rifle Regiment and not a BMP one. Also what is interesting is that unless they were heavily reinforced by the Cubans with tanks, a MRR only has about 41 total tanks - a single tank battalion with an extra tank in the HQ section. Given what they had left it would mean they had only lost 26 tanks taking on the 49th which doesn't sound that realistic given the composition of the 49th. Most likely that means the Cubans reinforced them with tanks from their own units, thus resulting in the mix of tanks they have left - i.e. mostly T-72 or T-80 but also could be types the Cuban Army was equipped with.

So if you base its composition on historical information:

One Motorized Rifle Regiment - 3000 men with one tank battalion and three BTR battalions (which would have some BMP's as well) - the one on duty in Cuba

One Motorized Rifle Regiment - again about 3000 strong, most likely being the training personnel - armed with Cuban material - most likely a mix of BMP-1's and BTR-60's along with a tank battalion of T-62's

One Tank Battalion - another 40 or so tanks, again most likely Cuban T-62's or T-54/55 - 165 men

Recon Battalion and Engineering Battalion - around 350 men each

Artillery Regiment, SAM Regiment, various other support battalions - most likely formed from the signal and support troops in Cuba - about 3600 men or so if they were formed at full strength

One Helicopter Squadron of about 18 helicopters with at least some surviving to 2001, most likely heavy on attack helos, probably reinforced by captured American civilian helicopters (as mentioned in the Texas module the Soviet commander was hoping to use the fuel to get his attack helicopters back into operation) - maybe 200 men

Add it up its about 11,000 men - which matches what Gorbachev said was there in 1991

Plust that gives the Soviets around 120 tanks of various types at the start - which gives them more than enough to engage the 49th with a real possibility of victory when you add in the BTR's and BMP's that are with them

[RN7]

According to Red Star-Lone Star.

As of late summer 2000 Soviet Division Cuba had 3,000 men and 15 operational tanks (mostly T-80's & T-72's) with some other AFV (mostly BTR-70's and BMP variants).

Soviet forces attacking Brownsville: (230 men, 3x BMP, 8x BTR-70, 2x ZSU-30, 9x Jeeps, 6x Trucks)

Soviet forces attacking Port Isabel: (120 men, 4x BTR-70, 5x Jeeps, 2x Trucks, 2x Fuel Tankers)

It likely that the Soviets have also captured or acquired a number of US and Mexican military and light vehicles and some artillery as well.

[Abbott Shaull]

More than likely, but I don't see the Cubans letting the Soviet leave with 'their' toys. Mostly the Soviets retained operational control over Anti-Air Missile Batteries and Aviation assets that were loaned out. Same thing naval vessel they invariably loan out to their 'brothers-in-arms'.

[rcaf_777]

I found a DIA report online can't post in on here due bandwidth, this is what I was able to come up with

Soviet Forces Cuba

The Soviet Forces have been in Cuba since shortly before the Cuba missiles, the soviet the main purpose of the soviet troops in Cuba is provide a technical assistance to Cuba forces, engage in signal intelligence, provide a symbolic show of force to the US that the USSR is ready to defend Cuba. With a one Motorized Rifle Brigade, this unit is more defensive force rather than a combat unit capable of conducting operations beyond Cuba. Given it size and equipment it would take a build up of equipment and transport aircraft before this unit could sent outside of Cuba, signs of which would observed by the US

Motorized Rifle Brigade (1x Tank Battalion, 3x Motorized Rifle Battalions) 2600
Cuban Military Advisory Group - 2000
Cuban Civilian Advisory Group - 8000
Lourdes Signals Intelligence Facility (See Below) 1500
Total Troops: 14,100

Bases
Lourdes Signals Intelligence Facility: The Lourdes Signals Intelligence facility, located near Havana, Cuba, was the largest facility of its kind operated by the KBG, outside of the U.S.S.R. Located less than 100 miles from Key West, the facility covered 28 square miles. The facility is staffed by over 1,500 KGB, GRU, Cuban DGI, and Eastern Bloc technicians, engineers and intelligence operatives.

I way I see it, once the war gets really going most of troops and modern equipment in Cuba leave for China or European Fronts. The Soviet do send replacements but they are thrid class troops, too old or medical unfit for combat.

The US attacks (conventional) airfeilds that can take Bear Bombers, as well as the Naval Bases, and the Lourdes Signals Intelligence Facility, which scares Fidel to point where he breaks with the Soviets. He knows he will not survie an american invasion, and with the Soviets occuppied eles where he can only offer a token defensive.

I can also see the Soviets no longer providing oil or any cash to prop up Cuba, so I see them try to build an alliance with left nations in centeral or south america

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Soviet Forces Cuba

Motorized Rifle Brigade (1x Tank Battalion, 3x Motorized Rifle Battalions) 2600
Cuban Military Advisory Group - 2000
Cuban Civilian Advisory Group - 8000
Lourdes Signals Intelligence Facility (See Below) 1500
Total Troops: 14,100

Well, considering that by the late Summer of 2000 the Soviet Division Cuba was whittled down (according to the scenario Red Star/Lone Star and the Soviet Vehicle Guide) to 3,000 men, 15 operational tanks and a number of AFVs, I suppose that those numbers are not a terrible starting point.

Being stuck in the continental US, there might be fewer desertions since there's no way to just walk back to Minsk. Plus, they're in Texas, where neck-tie parties are an institution. Surrendering to the Texans might go badly for the Soviets.

Plus, the unit sounded like it performed fairly well during the invasion of Texas, with more casualties caused by partisan snipers after the occupation of San Antonio rather than by the US 49th Armored Division in 1999.

However, this is an ad hoc division, formed from those forces marooned in Cuba. Except for the Motor Rifle Brigade, none of these individuals have worked together as a coordinated unit. The military advisers may be extremely skilled individuals, but they are not operating as companies or battalions. Maybe while the unit was marooned, the Soviets could have taken some time and prepared their non-combatants by having the military advisers train the non-combatants as line infantrymen between 1995 and 1998.

The big question is whether they'd have enough gear to field close to 8,000 men. For my part the inclusion of T72s suggests that the Cuban gave the soviets some gear as part of the deal to get them to leave the island. Aren't T72s the export version of the T64? Soviets would have had a problem with logistics since none of their Pact standard gear is compatible with the gear the Mexican Army is packing in 1998.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by sglancy12

Aren't T72s the export version of the T64?

Only kind of. In many ways the T-72 is more advanced than the T-64, in some ways less advanced. Armor sloping and turret silhouette are also a bit different.