British TO&E info (split from British Army Equipment...)

[Rainbow Six]

Guys, you may have seen this already, but in the event that you haven't you might find it interesting. It's a fairly detailed toe for various British Army units of Battalion size and equivalent and covers the periods before and after Options for Change.

http://orbat.com/site/toe/toe/uk/uk_toe.pdf

Cheers

Dave

[Louied]

Hey Rainbow, check out Tanknet. Myself and a couple of others are trying to piece together the BAOR ORBAT circa 1989.

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.p...c=13130&st=120

Also

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.p...1&#entry709865

and

http://www.parliament.the-stationery...t/80609w03.htm

Search for my posts there under LouieD

[dude_uk]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

On the subject of books, can anyone recommend any on the Territorial Army pre Options for Change.

I can recommend this one by bob peedle. Highly informative. Covers all arms of the T.A and defines when and where each unit was supposed to go.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Encyclopaedi...1556008&sr=1-2

Hey Rainbow, check out Tanknet. Myself and a couple of others are trying to piece together the BAOR ORBAT circa 1989.

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.p...c=13130&st=120

Also

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.p...1&#entry709865

and

http://www.parliament.the-stationery...t/80609w03.htm

Search for my posts there under LouieD

Those are some great links Louie! Well done and thank you on you for getting a full ORBAT for the Royal army ordnance corps! Thats been giving problems for ages about who goes where and what units there were.

Most books from the 80's don't go into much detail (or at all) for the combat service support arms during the cold war.

Do you have one on the Royal Army Medical corps?

[Louied]

dude uk,

I also have a pretty detailed listing for the Royal Corp of Transport, alot of it gleaned from this book which is excellent

http://www.amazon.com/British-Army-T...1605762&sr=1-1

and from this listing (it has some minor mistakes, i will post an updated version this weekend)

Regiments_Royal_Corps_Transport.doc

Unfortunately I have nothing on the RAMC.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by dude_uk

Most books from the 80's don't go into much detail (or at all) for the combat service support arms during the cold war.

Do you have one on the Royal Army Medical corps?

Dude, I just came across this link that might be of interest to you

http://british-army-units1945on.co.uk/RAMC.aspx

Same site also has an orbat for BAOR major units from 1945 right through to 2010.

http://british-army-units1945on.co.uk/Orbats.aspx

[dude_uk]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Dude, I just came across this link that might be of interest to you

http://british-army-units1945on.co.uk/RAMC.aspx

Thank you for the link. Informative but not quite as clear. I recently Obtained a history of RAMC corps but that was not particular clear either. I might have to contact the regimental museum for answers. The History of the RMP 'Redcaps' was not much use either.

The Cheshires and the Royal Hampshires are listed in the Challenge article on Canada as spending the War in Canada alog with two German Battalions.

Are there any other challenge article's concerning British Forces?

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by dude_uk

Are there any other challenge article's concerning British Forces?

I don't think so, but can't be certain.

[Rainbow Six]

Thanks Dude, have ordered a copy of Bob Peedle's book through amazon.

Louie, I've used the Tanknet orbat as the framework for my attempt to put together a Global orbat for the British Army in T2K circa 01 June 2000. The work that everyone involved has done on is awesome...well done.

One question about the Hansard material that I'm not too clear on...when it references milan platoons, e.g. 5/8 Kings, does anyone know if that means that the entire Battalion deployed to the BAOR Brigade listed or was it only the Milan platoon, with the rest of the Bn going elsewhere?

[Louied]

From what I've read (based upon the 5 Queen's, from their history in 'Soldiers of the Queen') while assigned to those brigades they were under the opcom of their respective division. I believe the Milan Plt.'S would definetly be needed to supplement the AT capability of the brigades meanwhile the rifle co's would be used to act as defence plt.'s for various HQ ( forward, stepup, & rear) while also guarding keypoints such as bridges. Also some incosistencies appear in the Hansard as. 1 Y&C which is actually the 1 Bn. Yorkshire Vol.'s ( the original announced name was to be the Yorkshire & Cleveland Vol's but that name was scrubbed @ formation & moved into parentheses as a bn. title). Also according to a RGJ journal I have 4 RGJ was assigened to 12 Ard Bde.

[Louied]

As for the RAC, I have correspondence from the RAC museum which was kind enough to send me the planned deployment of it's regiments for 1992 (pre-Options). I also was able to obtain a copy of th SOHB for 1988. BAOR was supposed to consist of 12 ard. rgt.'s. 3 Type 43 w/ Challenger 1, one of these rgt.'s was actually a type 57 but had it's 4th sqd. In Berlin w/ Chieftains and the one other was one of the Household Calvary Rgt.'s, which in '89 was The Blues & Royals (the two Household Calvary Rgt.'s apparently only manned 3 sqd.'s, w/ the 4th assigned to the Mounted Rgt. In a ceremonial role). 9 Type 57, 4 w/ Challenger 1 & 5 w/ Chieftain. The Chieftains were due to be replaced with what eventually became Challenger 2 but the UK still had a large stock of Chieftains (IIRC close to 900) along with a substantial number of Centurions w/ 105mm guns (sveral of these had been & were being converted to AVRE, I'll look up the exact # when I get home. The ard. rgt. @ Hildesheim is listed as under 22 Ard. Bde., however it might have reverted to corps control to defend Hildesheim with the PRG (Para Rgt. Grp., the 3 TA Para Bn.'s. I'm still working on confirmation of this). Additionally there was an ard. rgt. @ Tidworth tasked to provide a Chieftain sqd. to UKMF, its other sqd.'s provided support to the Demo Sqd. @ Warminster & manned the Ard. Recce. Sqd in Cyprus. Some publications indicate that it was planned for the WHOLE rgt. to support UKMF in the 90's, again waiting for confirmation. Lastly there was a rgt. Listed as Ard. But supported the RAC Centre @ Bovington & manned the Training Rgt. @ Catterick. The amendment to the SOHB (I only have one page !!!) For the 90's shows an ard. Rgt. Coming over to BAOR under 19 Inf. Bde., I believe this rgt. Would have been in that role. The SOHB also calls for a four sqd. Ard. Delivery Rgt., which I believe would have been a composite unit.

[Rainbow Six]

Louie, thanks for the clarification on the Milan Platoons...that makes perfect sense.

By my count RAC in 1989 had nineteen Regiments (not including the HCMR). Taking that number into the start of the Twilight War I came up with this for the RAC at the start of the War:

Recce Regts (CVR(T))
Five (one for each of the three Armoured Divisions, plus one for 5th Abn Bde and one for 1st Mech Bde. 5th Abn Bde Regt has one Sqn assigned to 3 Cdo Bde, whilst 1st Mech Bde Regt has one Sqn going to the AMF(L) and (as this is for a T2K setting) one Sqn going to the Middle East Field Force.

MBT Regts (in my T2K timeline a mix of Chally 1 and Chally 2)
Twelve, which matches what you have exactly (porbably because as I mentioned the tanknet orbat is my framework!).

4th Arm Bde - 2 (Includes Berlin Sqn)
6th Arm Bde - 1
7th Arm Bde - 2
11th Arm Bde - 1
12th Arm Bde - 1
20th Arm Bde - 2
22nd Arm Bde - 2
33rd Arm Bde - 1

That makes seventeen, which leaves two Regts - the one assigned to the 1st Mech Bde at Tidworth and the one split between Catterick and Bovington. I hadn't seen a reference to that Regiment going to 19th Bde before - going by Graham Watson and Richard Rinaldi's book on the BAOR I thought 19th Bde at that point consisted of three Infantry Bns and no armour (although it does list a Recce Regt as coming under the Bde's command sometime around the start of the 1990's).

I don't have any definite info on where the Tidworth Regt deployed. Again looking at this strictly from a T2K perspective, I opted to have the Recce Troop in Cyprus (UN duties in Nicosia), one Sqn in Waminster (in a demo role) and one Sqn at BATUS in Canada, with the remainder going to Germany with the rest of 1st Bde.

Thanks again for the info...you've obviously done a shedload of work on this, and I appreciate you sharing it with us.

Cheers

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Recce Regts (CVR(T))
Five (one for each of the three Armoured Divisions, plus one for 5th Abn Bde and one for 1st Mech Bde. 5th Abn Bde Regt had one Sqn assigned to 3 Cdo Bde, whilst 1st Mech Bde Regt had one Sqn going to the AMF(L) and (as this is for a T2K setting) one Sqn going to the Middle East Field Force.

I'm not questioning your info or anything, but weren't there one or two Armd Recce regiments assigned as Corps level assets (one for either just I Corps or a second for II Corps as well)?

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I'm not aware of there being any Recce Regts being assigned to Corps level in the real World British orbat (although I may be mistaken).

The canon T2K orbat does have two Recce Regts assigned to each Corps as of the summer of 2000, and I will be sticking with that. I put an edit in (which may have been after you posted), but just to clarify my previous post referred to how I think things might have looked at the start of the War...the end of the War (or at least summer 2000) will look different...

You're probably right. I can't remember where I got that from, probably one of my old Global Balance books or something. I might even just be thinking of the Twilight orbat too. Just thought I'd ask. Thanks.

[Louied]

Rainbow, you are correct, there were 5 Ard. Recce Rgt.'s. The two in BAOR were designated as Ard.Recce Rgt.'s (BAOR Tracked). Though under command of the 1st & 4th Ard. Div.'s in war they came under command of the Corps & fought the covering force battle to screen the deployment of 1st Corps & find/fix the axis of advance of 3rd Shock Army (this is all info I received via several people in the know on Tanknet). A few TA bn.'s (listed as Corps troops in the Hansard) might also have been tasked to assist. 3rd Ard. Div. had an Ard.Recce Rgt.(UK tracked) based in peacetime @ Wimbish, as its Div. Recce since it was assigned as the Corps (& actually the NORTHAG) counterattack div. The 3rd IRL appeared to have been completely Challenger/Warrior equipped (at least planned for)by the early '90's. I was also informed via Tanknet, to think of BAOR planning on fighting a similiar battle to Alam Halfa ( I think I spelled it right) using the less mobile TA Inf. & Saxon equipped Inf. To channel the Soviets and break up their attack allowing the highly mobile Challenger/Warrior equipped bde.'s to attack them piecemeal. This defensive scheme further reminds me of the German defences during Goodwood with heavily defended AT locales attritting the British Armour attacking toward the ridge.

[Louied]

Ok, back home. Sorry if the previous posts look cluttered i sent them from my mobile. For the 1990-91 time period i have the following #'s for the the RAC :

Challenger1 = 450
Chieftain = 830
Centurion = 50(converted to AVRE) with another 570 in store

These are the CFE totals acoording to The Military Balance.

Again as for the Ard. Recce Rgt.'s, two are in BAOR, one in Wimbish to reinforce BAOR (serving as Div. Recce), one @ Tidworth to UKMF (one sqd. goes to AMF(L)) & finally the Household Cavalry rgt. @ Windsor (2 tracked Sqd.'s, one each to 5 Abn. Bde & 3 Cdo. Bde with the 3rd Fox equipped Sqd. to stay as Home Defence).

Ard. Recce Rgt.(Tracked BAOR)
48 Scimitar, 16 Striker, 16 Spartan
Ard. Recce Rgt.(Tracked UK)
24 Scimitar, 24 Scorpion, 16 Striker, 15 Spartan
Ard. Recce Rgt.(UK)
32 Scorpion, 16 Fox, 15 Spartan

The two yeomanry rgt.'s assigned to 2nd Inf. Div. (The Royal Yeomanry & Queen's Own Yeomanry) had 80 Fox & 20 Spartan in four sqd.'s. According to The Tank: Journal of The Royal Tank Regimernt Feb. 1990 they were being used as a mobile AT element to support the Corps rear area.

For what its worth in the T2k timeline there seems to be a build up to war so IMC I've slightly expanded the regular & TA. As a prime example I re-raised 5 RTR.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Louied

finally the Household Cavalry rgt. @ Windsor (2 tracked Sqd.'s, one each to 5 Abn. Bde & 3 Cdo. Bde with the 3rd Fox equipped Sqd. to stay as Home Defence).

Where, presumably, they would have joined up with the Windsor based Guards battalion to provide security for the Royal Family when the nukes started hitting the UK?

Do you have any thoughts on the Foot Guards? I'm going with eight Battalions (2 Bns each for the Grenadiers, Coldstreams, and Scots, plus 1 Bn each of Welsh and Irish). As best as I can tell some of them would have stayed in the London area, so I've ended up with one at Wellington barracks (security duties in the London area), one at Windsor (ready to get the Royal Family and other VVIP's out of the area when the s**t hits the fan), and one at Pirbirght (in a reserve role ready to support the other two if required), but am undecided as to whether or not to place another one in Greater London (or elsewhere in the UK)...

Originally Posted by Louied

For what its worth in the T2k timeline there seems to be a build up to war so IMC I've slightly expanded the regular & TA. As a prime example I re-raised 5 RTR.

Yeah, I've found it tricky to meet all the commitments of a T2K orbat without raising new units...personally I've re raised 41 Commando RM and two Gurkha Bns (2nd Bns for the 6th Queen Elizabeth's Own and 7th Duke of Edinburgh's Own), all for service in Hong Kong, and even then have found it impossible to form a full 6th Infantry Division, so in my T2K World Hong Kong only gets a reinforced Brigade.

I think others have looked at the Regiments that lost their 4th Bn during the 60's and 70's...the Queen's Regiment, the Light Infantry, and the Royal Anglians iirc?

BTW, mods if you feel this thread is drifting too far from its original title, I don't mind if you want to split the posts about the orbat into a new thread...

[dude_uk]

Originally Posted by Louied

dude uk,

I also have a pretty detailed listing for the Royal Corp of Transport, alot of it gleaned from this book which is excellent

I have that book too, very detailed but once again thank you for another compiled list.

You mention the staff officers hanbook '88, anyway to get a hold it? What sort of document is it? Its supposed to cover all units of the British army?

Currently over the Christmas holiday's (if I get a chance!) to I'm going try to get ORBATS for the Royal signals, RAMC and the RMP at least partially done. I have managed to get the Royal pioneer corps done and will write up a list if you are interested?

As for new units, I have re-raised 4th battalion 'Queens, Royal fusiliers and Light infantry. Its the only way to make the numbers work. Both 6th Air mobile (Really 24th air-mobile) the Berlin Brigade and the 6th division are listed without their composite units.

The following regular units are however missing from the UKSG orbat

1st and 2nd Scots Guards
1st Grenadier Guards
1st Irish Guards
1st Coldstream Guards
The Royal Hampshire Regiment
The Worchester and Sherwood Foresters Regiment
The Cheshire Regiment

1st King Edward VII's Own Gurkha Rifles (The Sirmoor Rifles)
1st and 2nd 6th Queen Elizabeth's Own Gurkha Rifles
1st and 2nd 7th Duke of Edinburgh's Own Gurkha Rifles


One thing that is not considered by the twilight team and one thing only considered by myself until recently, is how many units or battalions are going to cease to exist by 2000? The nuclear strikes on NATO forces in Eastern Europe and the attacks on the UK mainland surely a few battalions or regiments would be destroyed as effective fighting units? The British army likes to pride itself on the fact that as long as someone wears the cap-badge the regiment exists, but against an ICBM?

[Louied]

Rainbow, IIRC correctly there were the following special tasked bn's

Royal Duties- an Inf. Bn. & Ard. Recce Sqd. For the Queen & Royal Family escort/protection
A Bn. To secure art treausres & gold reserves
A Bn. To support HM's customs & border security (rounding up suspected Soviet agents & persons deemed to threaten security)
A Bn. For escort/protection of HM's govt.

IMC I have the Guards, King's, Queen's, & Prince of Wales's Div.'s add two bn.'s each the Scottish & Light Div. one each (according to Beevor in 'Inside the British Army', in 1990 the Scottish & King's Div.'s were the best recruited while the Queen's & Light were the worst)
As for the Gurkhas they are an almost limitless well (I have the figures @ home of how many apply just for the British Army each year, IIRC it's close to 10,000)

When I get home I will post my infantry ORBAT & my rationale behind it.

Dude UK, I will take whatever you have ! I do have a copy of the History of the RPC 1945-1990 & would like to compare notes. As for the SOHB, please PM me.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Louied

Rainbow, IIRC correctly there were the following special tasked bn's

Royal Duties- an Inf. Bn. & Ard. Recce Sqd. For the Queen & Royal Family escort/protection
A Bn. To secure art treausres & gold reserves
A Bn. To support HM's customs & border security (rounding up suspected Soviet agents & persons deemed to threaten security)
A Bn. For escort/protection of HM's govt.

Thanks Louie...sounds to me like that would take care of four Guards Bns at the start of the War...I guess one could argue that one of those Bns could perhaps be sent to Europe sometime in the spring of 97 if it was felt there was a greater need for them there...or could stay in the UK.

[Rainbow Six]

The Cheshires and the Royal Hampshires are listed in the Challenge article on Canada as spending the War in Canada alog with two German Battalions. Personally I've always thought it's a bit unlikely that so many troops from two major belligerent nations would stay in Canada but I suppose one can justify it by saying there were shipping shortages or such like...

I have nuked a few units in my work...most of the London based Guards Bn for a start (in my T2K World 2nd Bn, Grenadiers; I "saved" one Company, who were with the Queen at Sandringham when London was nuked)...also one of the regular Bns assigned to 2nd Inf Bde, who caught it when Dover and Folkestone were hit...the resident Gibraltar Bn...a second Guards Bn in the 1998 strikes (the Windsor based Bn, 1st Coldstreams imT2KW). Also several of the home defence TA Bns...3rd Cheshires and 4RRW but there may be others, and that's just the Infantry...

I've also amalgamated several Bns...for example 3rd and 4th Yorks, who both take a pasting in the 1998 strikes amalgamated into one Bn, (which is reinforced by Italian POWs held at Catterick and judged to be pro NATO). I've also amalgamated several of the 2nd Inf Dvn's TA Bns, e.g. 5 and 7 RAR.

[dude_uk]

Originally Posted by Louied

Dude UK, I will take whatever you have ! I do have a copy of the History of the RPC 1945-1990 & would like to compare notes.

I believe that is the same book that I got my info from what i could tell (There might be errors, don't have the book).

Royal Pioneer corps ORBAT

UKLF

23 group (I.e. Battalion) Pioneer
Group HQ
127 (Tancer) Company (Independent?)
206 Company
518 Company
522 Company

Training
‘C’ Training Company depot

Territorial Army
34 coy (v)
68 coy (v)

British army of the Rhine

Rheindahlen military base security force (company strength)

70 Company
144 Company
(NOTE: 70 and 144 originally with 8 RCT regiment as Protection group transferred to security duties within BOAR in 1988)

1st British Corps
1(Br) Corps ‘170’ defence company

1st armoured Division
Division defence and employment platoon
7th Armoured Brigade defence employment platoon
12th Armoured Brigade defence employment platoon
22nd Armoured Brigade defence employment platoon

3rd armoured Division
Division defence and employment platoon
15th Armoured Brigade defence employment platoon
49th Armoured Brigade defence employment platoon

4th armoured Division
Division defence and employment platoon
11th Armoured Brigade defence employment platoon
20th Armoured Brigade defence employment platoon
19th Infantry Brigade defence employment platoon

Note: Defence employment platoon is (1 officer 24 men)

[Rainbow Six]

Guys, attached spreadsheet is part of what I'm working on.

It'll take me a while to finish off the whole thing (I'm still working on the Regular Artillery, RE, and R Signals as well as the TA) but comments / feedback / questions welcome.

Couple of quick notes

1. I haven't pinned down specific locations / subordinations for the UK based units yet.

2. My 5th Dvn is formed mainly from units pulled back from residential tours of NI and other UK postings, including the School of Infantry Demo Bn. I have it forming at Catterick during 1997, remaining in the UK until summer 1998, during which it was responsible for internal security / disaster relief in NE England, before deploying to Germany from Newcastle.

3. I have created a couple of new Brigades - 10th Inf and 29th. I've also presumed there will be some movement of Bdes within the Divisions following the arrival of the 5th and the formation of II Corps. Main changes are 1st Bde coming under command of 2nd Dvn, replacing 24th Bde who become Corps Troops, and one of the new Bdes (10th) replacing 19th Bde in the 4th Dvn, with 19th Bde becoming Corps Troops.

4. I haven't thought about what to do with 5th Abn Bde yet.

5. Units in italics do not exist IRL

Cheers

[natehale1971]

Could someone post how a British Commonwealth Platoon is set up? (ie the positions in it... i know how a squad is set up, but not the entire platoon) I need the information for some of the fan-fiction that I'm writing.

[Legbreaker]

The Australian Plattoon of the period is as follows:

9 man sections which are split into three man groups:

Scout group
No 1 Scout (rifle)
No 2 Scout (rifle)
Section commander (corporal) (rifle)

Gun Group
No 1 gunner (GPMG)
No 2 gunner (assistant) (rifle)
Section 2IC (Lance Corporal) (rifle)

Rifle Group
No 1 Rifleman (Rifle + GL)
No 2 Rifleman (Rifle + LAW)
No 3 Rifleman (Rifle)

Three Sections per plattoon plus a four man PHQ made up of:

Platoon Commander (2nd or 1st Lt) (rifle)
Platoon Sergeant/2IC (rifle)
Signalman (Rifle + manpack radio)
Runner (Rifle) - usually the next Private to be promoted to Lance Corporal

Note that occasionally 10 or even 11 man sections are used (VERY rarely) and the additional men added to the Rifle Group.

[Louied]

Guys thought you might be interested in this:

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/featur...new_page_1.htm

Which is where i got this:

The Ministry of Defence War Book in the mid-1960s also assigned four battalions for “special Government War Book measures –

1. Special duties towards the Royal Family.
2. Special duties for central government
3. Security of gold reserves and art treasures.
4. Aid to HM Customs and the police in seizing enemy ships and aircraft.�

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-State-W...1777536&sr=8-1

A great book which also talks about the "War Book"

[natehale1971]

Does the British Army & other Commonwealth Armies not include an 'organic' field medic as part of the Platoon?

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The Australian Plattoon of the period is as follows:

9 man sections which are split into three man groups:

Scout group
No 1 Scout (rifle)
No 2 Scout (rifle)
Section commander (corporal) (rifle)

Gun Group
No 1 gunner (GPMG)
No 2 gunner (assistant) (rifle)
Section 2IC (Lance Corporal) (rifle)

Rifle Group
No 1 Rifleman (Rifle + GL)
No 2 Rifleman (Rifle + LAW)
No 3 Rifleman (Rifle)

Three Sections per plattoon plus a four man PHQ made up of:

Platoon Commander (2nd or 1st Lt) (rifle)
Platoon Sergeant/2IC (rifle)
Signalman (Rifle + manpack radio)
Runner (Rifle) - usually the next Private to be promoted to Lance Corporal

Note that occasionally 10 or even 11 man sections are used (VERY rarely) and the additional men added to the Rifle Group.