Aircraft In 2000

[Top-Break]

Just wondering if there are any thoughts on the number and availability of aircraft in T2K.

My guess is that between combat losses, lack of fuel, spare parts, and the effects of EMP, most combatants are lucky to have even a handful of operational aircraft.

Those that are left are probably held as part of a strategic reserve.

I would expect most combatants to have at least a handful of fast movers (F-16s, F-15s, F/A-18s, Tornados, MiGs and Sukhois, ETC) tasked with front-line reconnaissance due to the loss of sattelite capability.

There's also a possibility that most major combatants have a few heavy-lifters still operational. All those civilian airliners and cargo planes that no longer have any supplies of fuel might come in handy.

Any thoughts or comments?

[95th Rifleman]

Those old WW2 museums will be emptied. in the UK, Duxford has several air-worthy aircraft that are old enough to be immune to the effects of EMP. They would make excelelnt COIN aircraft for dealing with UK-based marauders.

[natehale1971]

I had an electonics tech tell me this once... If you knew the EMP was on it's way, there is a way to prepare yourself for it. Namely detaching the power leads to the electrical system and turning the thing on so that all of the 'juice' has been drawn out of the electical device. once that's done, switch it off position.

He told me that if you pull all the batteries out of your equipment (CD/tape players, boomboxes, laptops) or pulled the power plugs out of electonics, or detached the electrical systems.. the EMP can pass without getting blown. This came from the A-bomb tests... that inert electonics were not effected, only those with a 'vampire' surge or fully turned on was blown out.

And looking back, it makes sense of One of the things on the Ike (USS Dwight D. Eisenhower, CVN69... horah! that magic number) that all of us were trained to do by the shakedown teams Gitmo, and that was to pull batteries out of all our electonics when we weren't using them.

IF the military had spareparts on the shelves, yes it would be time consuming (and rely heavily on the stockpiles)... but you'd still be able to get through them.

Did anyone else get training to pull batteries out of electronics when they were not in use? It took my friends and family nearly 6 years to break me of that particular habit, right after i had done it to the TV Remote.

[ChalkLine]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I had an electonics tech tell me this once... If you knew the EMP was on it's way, there is a way to prepare yourself for it. <snip interesting post for brevity>

This is true but you have to remember that if the vehicle is large enough the wiring in it acts like an antenna. It will build up enough charge to sap your electronics even if unhooked.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

But from the 1980s on most Western military vehicles, ships and aircraft had some sort of electromagnetic shielding in recognition of the fact that EMP was a consideration on the battlefield.
Even civilian aircraft have some protection against EMP because they have to be able to withstand lightning strikes directly hitting the aircraft.

[Webstral]

The RDF Sourcebook, which covers the Persian Gulf region, gives an idea of what the authors thought might be possible in an area with enough oil left for military and possibly industrial purposes. How often the aircraft fly is rather another matter. I've been told that modern combat aircraft burn through parts the way an alcoholic burns through a liquor cabinet. My reading on the subject generally supports this idea, although the alcoholic bit might be an hyperbole.

Parts for older aircraft may be easier to fabricate than parts for modern aircraft, but there won't be any assembly lines for P-51 parts. I don't know enough about supporting aircraft like the ones in the Confederate Air Force[1] to make a realistic assessment of how hard it would be for a major cantonment like Colorado to support obsolete aircraft. I don't know how many would be available, even to a major cantonment.


1 For those not familiar with the Confederate Air Force, a brief overview is provided here: http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/b17/con...eairforce.html

[Raellus]

A Marine helicopter (CH-53) aircrewman told me at an airshow that it takes about 50 man-hours of maintainence for every 1 hour of flight time to operate a CH-53.

I just don't see many operational aircraft in most parts of the world c. 2000. Aside from a few isolated regions, fuel availability would be a significant hindrance to air ops. Modern manufacturing is an oxymoron in 2000, and spares would come only from cannibalizing other aircraft.

Look at the airforce of nearly any failed state- you might see a couple old turboprop transports and one or two jet fighter bombers still operational out of an original force of dozens or hundreds of both types. No spares and/or poor maintainance means an imminent end to air ops.

And then there's the early years of the war. I think that the modern battlespace- especially over Europe during the height of the Cold War- would be extremely hazzardous to most aircraft types. Attrition rates would be really high while production, even before the exchange, would be fairly low. It takes a lot longer to build an F-16 than it did to build a P-51. With only a couple of years for the major combatants to gear up for total war, there wouldn't be nearly enough replacements to fill the gaps left by the casualties. Once the exchange begins, aircraft manufacture would come to an abrupt end.

This means that by 2000, the surviving airfleets would have been operating for about 3 years with no replacement aircraft, few new spares, dwindling supplies of cannibalized spares, a trickle of jet fuel, and probably only the bare minimum of maintainance.

[Webstral]

I agree with your assessment, Rae. Even Milgov would struggle to keep a couple of C-130s in the air, useful as the ability to airlift critical personnel might be. I'll resist the temptation to use this as an opportunity to repeat everything I've written about airships and the saving grace PCs can deliver to Milgov as a result of developments in Airlords of the Ozarks.

[Targan]

Welcome to the boards, Top-Break. There are a couple of threads regarding aircraft and airships in T2K listed in the Thread Map (which itself is a sticky thread near the top of the list). Take a look in the segment of the thread map Equipment; Aircraft/Naval http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=773#equip_an . There is also the Aircraft Rules thread http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=220 . I'm sure there have been other discussions a while back on aircraft that aren't listed in the Thread Map, too. Also, there have been extensive discussions in the past about EMP. One from the Thread Map: Vehicles and EMPs http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=267 .

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Webstral

(SNIP)
I'll resist the temptation to use this as an opportunity to repeat everything I've written about airships and the saving grace PCs can deliver to Milgov as a result of developments in Airlords of the Ozarks.

To be honest, I think the supercoolers/refrigeration units used by the original owners to keep their helium supply liquid might prove useful in separating out air gases by differential distillation, unless I misinterpreted the text.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

With only a couple of years for the major combatants to gear up for total war, there wouldn't be nearly enough replacements to fill the gaps left by the casualties.

Besides that which was necessary for prosecution of the war in China, the Pact had very little "gearing up". Besides the minimal amount of preparation over a very short space of time by Germany, NOBODY in the west was even thinking about war, let alone preparing for it.
This from both 2.0 & 2.2:

From the very beginning, this is a "come as you are" war; neither side is adequately prepared. The German Army has just finished a period of very rapid growth and rebuilding, many of its units being equipped with tanks and vehicles which have sat idle in warehouses for four or five years. The Poles and Soviets are at the end of several years of very limited military spending capped by a war in the east which has drawn off much of their best equipment already.

V1.0 could well be different given we know next to nothing prior to 1995 from canon sources. My guess is the cold war just rolled on and there wasn't the drawing down of forces seen in the early 90's IRL and in 2.x.

Even so, the west had little reason to see war in Europe coming so why would they prepare for it? Sure they may well be supplying China, however it's very unlikely anyone would be providing China with the best they have available for fear of the Pact getting their hands on it and reverse engineering.
In V1.0 EVERYONE was kept in the dark about the coming reunification of Germany, except those handful of people actually involved in the talks.
In 2.x we see Germany activating reservists in 1995, but that alone does not justify production of new equipment and canon specifically states in the quote above where the vehicles, etc are coming from. It's not until June 1996 that secret talks are commenced with German ethnic organisations within Poland, and the rest of the world sees nothing more than posturing and minor border clashes until the 27th of July 1996 to indicate war is coming.

Note border friction is a daily event world wide. Some borders are obviously a lot quieter than others, but some are downright deadly (take Korea as an example). The world doesn't mobilise and ramp up production based on friction.

Getting back to the topic of aircraft, I read a short story years ago (can't remember the author or more than general details) about a future where corporate wars were the only way to settle disputes, takeovers, etc. Technology was restricted to pre 1900 (I think) with black powder weapons predominant, no vehicles, and certainly no aircraft. Often the "war" would be won without a shot being fired as the larger company could afford to amass a larger mercenary army and essentially guarantee victory.
Our hero chose to join the smaller side, promising victory to the board of directors by use of an undisclosed advantage in return for a massive reward when he delivered.
His plan? Using something like a hang glider (the first one in history flew just before the tech cut off date - a fact only a handful of people knew) as an observation and command and control post. It would allow his side to spot the enemy much sooner and manoeuvre to greater effect, thereby negating the enemy's greater numbers.

This short story highlights the impact effective reconnaissance and superior intelligence has in war. Air power of any sort greatly aids in the rapid and efficient gathering of battlefield information and so any commander worth his rank will move heaven and earth to maintain even one prop driven light plane if they possibly can. Even a hot air balloon is better than nothing (although you wouldn't catch me volunteering for that duty as a slow moving aerial target!!!).

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Well, once wrested from the Mexican/Cuban forces, Davis Monthan AFB is going to be a treasure trove for a rebuilt USAF - acres of A1 Skyraiders and other prop a/c, for example, to cobble together working ships out of. Of course matters like fuel are a different issue altogether.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

(Here there bee snippinge)
Getting back to the topic of aircraft, I read a short story years ago (can't remember the author or more than general details) about a future where corporate wars were the only way to settle disputes, takeovers, etc. Technology was restricted to pre 1900 (I think) with black powder weapons predominant, no vehicles, and certainly no aircraft. Often the "war" would be won without a shot being fired as the larger company could afford to amass a larger mercenary army and essentially guarantee victory.
Our hero chose to join the smaller side, promising victory to the board of directors by use of an undisclosed advantage in return for a massive reward when he delivered.
His plan? Using something like a hang glider (the first one in history flew just before the tech cut off date - a fact only a handful of people knew) as an observation and command and control post. It would allow his side to spot the enemy much sooner and manoeuvre to greater effect, thereby negating the enemy's greater numbers.

I'll see your hang-glider and raise you...kites! South Asian/Indian fighting kites have been on record for centuries. AND...the United States Signal Corps used huge box kites at the end of the 19th century for Meteorological and Communications purposes. Surely one large enough for a (hopefully parachute-equipped) observer could be built?