Aircraft In 2000

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

With only a couple of years for the major combatants to gear up for total war, there wouldn't be nearly enough replacements to fill the gaps left by the casualties.

Besides that which was necessary for prosecution of the war in China, the Pact had very little "gearing up". Besides the minimal amount of preparation over a very short space of time by Germany, NOBODY in the west was even thinking about war, let alone preparing for it.
This from both 2.0 & 2.2:

From the very beginning, this is a "come as you are" war; neither side is adequately prepared. The German Army has just finished a period of very rapid growth and rebuilding, many of its units being equipped with tanks and vehicles which have sat idle in warehouses for four or five years. The Poles and Soviets are at the end of several years of very limited military spending capped by a war in the east which has drawn off much of their best equipment already.

V1.0 could well be different given we know next to nothing prior to 1995 from canon sources. My guess is the cold war just rolled on and there wasn't the drawing down of forces seen in the early 90's IRL and in 2.x.

Even so, the west had little reason to see war in Europe coming so why would they prepare for it? Sure they may well be supplying China, however it's very unlikely anyone would be providing China with the best they have available for fear of the Pact getting their hands on it and reverse engineering.
In V1.0 EVERYONE was kept in the dark about the coming reunification of Germany, except those handful of people actually involved in the talks.
In 2.x we see Germany activating reservists in 1995, but that alone does not justify production of new equipment and canon specifically states in the quote above where the vehicles, etc are coming from. It's not until June 1996 that secret talks are commenced with German ethnic organisations within Poland, and the rest of the world sees nothing more than posturing and minor border clashes until the 27th of July 1996 to indicate war is coming.

Note border friction is a daily event world wide. Some borders are obviously a lot quieter than others, but some are downright deadly (take Korea as an example). The world doesn't mobilise and ramp up production based on friction.

Getting back to the topic of aircraft, I read a short story years ago (can't remember the author or more than general details) about a future where corporate wars were the only way to settle disputes, takeovers, etc. Technology was restricted to pre 1900 (I think) with black powder weapons predominant, no vehicles, and certainly no aircraft. Often the "war" would be won without a shot being fired as the larger company could afford to amass a larger mercenary army and essentially guarantee victory.
Our hero chose to join the smaller side, promising victory to the board of directors by use of an undisclosed advantage in return for a massive reward when he delivered.
His plan? Using something like a hang glider (the first one in history flew just before the tech cut off date - a fact only a handful of people knew) as an observation and command and control post. It would allow his side to spot the enemy much sooner and manoeuvre to greater effect, thereby negating the enemy's greater numbers.

This short story highlights the impact effective reconnaissance and superior intelligence has in war. Air power of any sort greatly aids in the rapid and efficient gathering of battlefield information and so any commander worth his rank will move heaven and earth to maintain even one prop driven light plane if they possibly can. Even a hot air balloon is better than nothing (although you wouldn't catch me volunteering for that duty as a slow moving aerial target!!!).

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Well, once wrested from the Mexican/Cuban forces, Davis Monthan AFB is going to be a treasure trove for a rebuilt USAF - acres of A1 Skyraiders and other prop a/c, for example, to cobble together working ships out of. Of course matters like fuel are a different issue altogether.

[Mohoender]

Is there a way to find out what types of aircrafts were there between 1990-1995? Looking at google map today, I still saw plenty of F4, 1 F100 and a couple F111...

I don't care if they are/were in flying order or not, we already discussed that but the scenario of a Franco-Belgian comic going by the title of "Dawn Patrol" (Buck Danny by Charlier & Hubinon) would perfectly fit in.

In the original scenario the heroes (3 USN pilots) are kidnapped by a former nazi sub-commander to locate a lost submarines. The action takes place in the early 1950's with the USN pilots operating from V45 "Valley Forge" and flying F9 Panther. They are brought to a Pacific island where dozens of US aircraft had been left over since WW2. They find a TBF Avenger and put it back in flying conditions using spare parts from other left over aircrafts.

I could perfectly imagine to have an inspired playing scenario taking place at Davis Monthan AFB with PCs looking for aircrafts to achieve a given mission.

This had been the first comic book I read back in 1977-1978. Wander why I hang up around this forum? I guess, I'll be careful to what comic book I'll be giving my daughters.

[pmulcahy11b]

When I was a GM, I played fast and loose with aircraft availability, but in "real" t2K, you may have some ultralights, gyrocopters, things like the occasional Piper Cub or Pilatus PC-6, and very rarely, more modern aircraft like the larger helicopters or perhaps some light jet aircraft or heavier prop-driven aircraft. They would not be as common as in my GM universe I had when I was GMing.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

When I was a GM, I played fast and loose with aircraft availability, but in "real" t2K, you may have some ultralights, gyrocopters, things like the occasional Piper Cub or Pilatus PC-6, and very rarely, more modern aircraft like the larger helicopters or perhaps some light jet aircraft or heavier prop-driven aircraft. They would not be as common as in my GM universe I had when I was GMing.

we tried our hand at it - it is quite fun but rules need to be tweaked somewhat to get meaningful duels in the sky.

In our game the players started out re-developing old WWI aircraft using whatever parts and materials could be made or scrounged. This led to a niece little air war that rapidly escalated into more WWII -ish stuff as General Pain reinvented the "Not-Jager Programme" - the emergency fighter program with jets etc .

They still have a few aircraft left ( how are the mighty fallen) of various types..

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Oh, I should mention "my" view of Orlando in T2k has the local MilGov cantonment forces with a couple of flyable helos. Loooots of avgas around the area, not a bunch of qualified pilots or flyable a/c. Some folks from Embry-Riddle made it to Orlando and helped the local authorities get two flying.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Oh, I should mention "my" view of Orlando in T2k has the local MilGov cantonment forces with a couple of flyable helos.

Write us something. We've been a little dry lately.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Well, once wrested from the Mexican/Cuban forces, Davis Monthan AFB is going to be a treasure trove for a rebuilt USAF - acres of A1 Skyraiders and other prop a/c, for example, to cobble together working ships out of. Of course matters like fuel are a different issue altogether.

That's a big maybe, IMHO. Those planes would need a lot of maintainance to become airworthy again. It's not like dusting off the Red Barchetta in the garage and firing it up for a Sunday drive. Parts may or may not be an issue (seems like a perfect scenario for cannibalization but I'm pretty sure that most electrical components are removed from the airframe before storage) but finding skilled aircraft mechanics probably would be. It also assumes that the Mexican military hasn't done anything with the aircraft either. They could have tried to resurrect some of them and/or they could have trashed them.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Raellus

That's a big maybe, IMHO. Those planes would need a lot of maintainance to become airworthy again. It's not like dusting off the Red Barchetta in the garage and firing it up for a Sunday drive. Parts may or may not be an issue (seems like a perfect scenario for cannibalization but I'm pretty sure that most electrical components are removed from the airframe before storage) but finding skilled aircraft mechanics probably would be. It also assumes that the Mexican military hasn't done anything with the aircraft either. They could have tried to resurrect some of them and/or they could have trashed them.

Assuming they didn't trash them, if they get any more than a few flying they'd crush the already crippled US forces once and for all. Total air supremacy courtesy of a couple of flights of Skyraiders or AC47s pretty much dooms the US.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Total air supremacy courtesy of a couple of flights of Skyraiders or AC47s pretty much dooms the US.

That's a bit extreme, although no doubt C.L. Chennault would agree with you wholeheartedly. Assuming that "a couple of flights" adds up to four or so aircraft, each of which generates a sortie a day over the long haul (this is Twilight: 2000), then this amounts to four opportunities to attack US troops with one aircraft once per day. This does not amount to a Mexican ability to overrun and occupy the continental United States or anything remotely like it. A handful of CAS aircraft certainly would be powerful force multipliers for the Mexicans. However, I don't think even a zealous zoomie would say that a small package of even the legendary A-1 would completely upset the balance of power across 1500+ miles of what passes for front from 1998-2001.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Webstral

That's a bit extreme, although no doubt C.L. Chennault would agree with you wholeheartedly. Assuming that "a couple of flights" adds up to four or so aircraft, each of which generates a sortie a day over the long haul (this is Twilight: 2000), then this amounts to four opportunities to attack US troops with one aircraft once per day. This does not amount to a Mexican ability to overrun and occupy the continental United States or anything remotely like it. A handful of CAS aircraft certainly would be powerful force multipliers for the Mexicans. However, I don't think even a zealous zoomie would say that a small package of even the legendary A-1 would completely upset the balance of power across 1500+ miles of what passes for front from 1998-2001.

There certainly wouldnt be any significant results in the short run - no blitz tactic could be employes due to only 4-5 CAS prop a/c. But in the longer run, being able to strike with semi impunity the war would turn against the US loyalists still holding out. ( In this specific scenario - bear in mind - forces are mostly scattered about with few concentrated forces). Taking out smaller posts /units one at the time will as the seasons pass lead to posts being evacuated as attack draws nigh. Standing your ground is not an option to most when it will lead to a no-gains sacrifice.

all in my humble opinion. As for airwar - making AA weapons has always been the traditional countertactic against air superiority. Any thoughts on make shift AA weapons ? Could a missile be made in a garage that homes in on its target ? The Germans did it in 1945 and they had to develop it from scratch.

http://www.luft46.com/missile/x-4.html

Given access to modern plans - and electronics - could you make SAMs in T2K ? I think it is as plausible as refurbishing WWII planes and attacking the enemy. Using a jet that burns a ton of fuel were a prop plane that use 100 liters doesnt make sense imho. Air superiority isnt measured by the cold war standards in T2K is my 2 cents- more like WWI.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Given access to modern plans - and electronics - could you make SAMs in T2K ? I think it is as plausible as refurbishing WWII planes and attacking the enemy. Using a jet that burns a ton of fuel were a prop plane that use 100 liters doesnt make sense imho. Air superiority isnt measured by the cold war standards in T2K is my 2 cents- more like WWI.

Well, the upshot is that in the event that someone brings a small number of a/c to the CONUS to use as local air supremacy they're going to find themselves up against a fusillade of AA fire once they become a known threat. I have been told that equipping the AH64 for AIM-9 use is a "simple" field modification. In that spirit I could see ad-hoc SAM vehicles being cobbled together using Sidewinders and 2.5 ton trucks and improvised launch rails. Nothing fancy, mind you, just one guy with a pair of headphones and a firing switch, listening for the "growl" while sitting in the truck cab, with a rack of 'winders pointed downrange towards the FEBA.

Plus stocks of Redeyes, Stingers, etc. that might still be on hand in the US.

Worse (for the enemy a/c) you take a situational (although admittedly non-canon) thing like my "Florida JMC" where they have two working helos and couple that with ad-hoc missile usage and there's a serious threat for enemy a/c. Not in the sense that a Bell Jetranger would be trying to dogfight a Skyraider, mind. I could just see one coordinating with ground forces, hiding behind a building or hills, then when the guys on the ground call for it, popping out, getting a lock, and firing off whatever missiles, then popping back down. Hopefully the enemy's so confident of their own air supremacy and not expecting to get bounced like that they won't see it coming.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

(Here there bee snippinge)
Getting back to the topic of aircraft, I read a short story years ago (can't remember the author or more than general details) about a future where corporate wars were the only way to settle disputes, takeovers, etc. Technology was restricted to pre 1900 (I think) with black powder weapons predominant, no vehicles, and certainly no aircraft. Often the "war" would be won without a shot being fired as the larger company could afford to amass a larger mercenary army and essentially guarantee victory.
Our hero chose to join the smaller side, promising victory to the board of directors by use of an undisclosed advantage in return for a massive reward when he delivered.
His plan? Using something like a hang glider (the first one in history flew just before the tech cut off date - a fact only a handful of people knew) as an observation and command and control post. It would allow his side to spot the enemy much sooner and manoeuvre to greater effect, thereby negating the enemy's greater numbers.

I'll see your hang-glider and raise you...kites! South Asian/Indian fighting kites have been on record for centuries. AND...the United States Signal Corps used huge box kites at the end of the 19th century for Meteorological and Communications purposes. Surely one large enough for a (hopefully parachute-equipped) observer could be built?

[bash]

I can't see a reason former first world powers wouldn't have some operational aircraft post-TDM. In the US there are literally thousands of private small aircraft sitting on the tarmac or in hangars of hundreds of municipal airports. These are besides the military aircraft not destroyed in combat or nuclear strikes. Even the magic EMPs of T2K aren't going to destroy every single electronic component in every one of these aircraft.

Aircraft rendered completely unusable from the EMPs will be canabalized to provide spares/repairs for other aircraft. Small aircraft would be some of the highest priority equipment any power bloc (MilGov, CivGov, etc) would want to control. I'd even say aircraft would be higher priority than heavy armor, tanks are well and good but aerial recon gives a huge advantage to even a light infantry force.

Avgas for planes wouldn't be any more of a problem than fuel normally is in T2K, after all somehow Diesel engines can run on alcohol.

Avgas and gasoline can be made from syngas with some processing, synthetic avgas has actually been a thing for years in civil aviation, the FAA allows up to (IIRC) 50% natural/synthetic avgas blends. Synthetic fuel was heavily used by Germany in WWII and chemical plants that made it were primary targets for allied bombing. So avgas would be something larger powers could end up making in bulk. Not commercial aviation is practical bulk production but enough to perform aerial recon and high value transport.

At the local cantonment level I think kites and balloons would definitely be used if not ultralight planes or paramotors in some places. Kites and balloons could be used for aerial photography, weather stations, or to loft radio repeaters to extend UHF/VHF comms.

I don't think what air power anyone can field would be used in front line combat very often though. With no armor or defensive systems repurposed civilian aircraft wouldn't want to get anywhere near enemy ground forces. They'd prefer nice safe high altitude missions.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by bash

Avgas for planes wouldn't be any more of a problem than fuel normally is in T2K, after all somehow Diesel engines can run on alcohol.

T2K has a few smallish diversions from real world physics and chemistry to make the game playable. The fuel issue is one of them, radiation half life is another.
Sure, IRL they don't make a huge amount of sense, but seen in the light this is essentially an alternate reality with slightly different scientific "rules", it all fits nicely into place.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

T2K has a few smallish diversions from real world physics and chemistry to make the game playable. The fuel issue is one of them, radiation half life is another.
Sure, IRL they don't make a huge amount of sense, but seen in the light this is essentially an alternate reality with slightly different scientific "rules", it all fits nicely into place.

and another is the fact that there are no ethanol blends of fuel and that the energy that they are using for ethanol and methanol is significantly lower than in reality - i.e. the difference between reality and what the game says they can is pretty large

[bash]

The main point I was making is the rules as written do not talk about biodiesel, dieselhol, or anything else. In the game world the alcohol goes from still to fuel tank and engine runs. So if we're operating in that world, avgas for small planes is no more difficult to produce than alcohol for our game world Diesel engines.

So talking about aircraft in the T2K world, the issue is more one of physical supply of planes, pilots, and airstrips than one of fuel for same. Powers like MilGov would make aircraft maintenance/refurbishment a crash program IMO. Per liter of fuel a Cessna with a radio and pair of binoculars would make a great force multiplier and better (again IMO) than trying to field heavy armor.

A couple working Hueys or Jetrangers would be a huge boon in the field. Thinking about it helicopters might even be a bigger priority than light planes as they have many of the same capabilities with added capability of air mobile infantry.

[swaghauler]

The designers of Twilight2000 didn't have a real understanding of fuel or fuel types other than perhaps some small research in their local library. In their defense, the internet didn't really exist when they wrote Twilight2000.

The Issues are;

Methanol alone does NOT have sufficient power to be used as a fuel. It simply lacks energy. It can be used to "cut" alcohol, gas or biodiesel/diesel, which WILL reduce that engine's power. A ratio of 10% methanol to 90% fuel will allow the "stretching" of an existing fuel supply. Cutting more than 20% Methanol into the fuel can result in reliability issues.

Ethanol is stated as having roughly HALF the power of gasoline. NOTHING could be farther from the truth. Alcohol actually has MORE POWER than gasoline but it burns hotter and, more importantly, FASTER than gasoline. This faster burn rate contributes to LOWER MILEAGE than gas but there is MORE POWER while you have a fuel supply. This is why Top Fuel Dragsters and performance racers all use an alcohol-based fuel system. The higher temps will cause the catastrophic failure of gaskets and hoses and eventually the piston rings and springs. However, any new vehicle rated for E85 CAN HANDLE alcohol.

The original Gasahol is a 50/50 mix of gas and Ethanol and you will see a significant reduction in MPG (up to 40%) but only a minor reduction in power for ground vehicles. Using Gasahol in Light Aviation IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER! Ethanol is known for water contamination issues and putting it into a carburated aircraft where the pilot controls the fuel flow/mix like a Cessna or Moonie (the two types I'M most familiar with) will probably result in carb stalls or carb intake icing at higher altitudes (where the cold air will gel the fuel and cause the water bound to the Ethanol to form ice crystals in the fuel lines). Power will also be SIGNIFICANTLY reduced compared to the high Octane ratings in AVGAS. Stalls will be common when attempting to maneuver under power, especially at high bank angles where fuel flow may "lean out" due to gravity. Standard High Test ground fuels will fare even worse. As a substitute for AVGAS, certain High Test Gasolines (97+ Octane) can be used with a bottle of special additives BUT it may result in reduced top speed AND altitude ceiling. This additive is commonly found at smaller US airports in order to support private and bush pilots who may fly into places where AVGAS is hard to get. Mixing High Test and Ethanol would be a NO GO in any smart General Aviation pilot's handbook.

The uninformed idea of AVGAS being needed for ALL Aircraft in Twilight2000 also needs to be addressed. This is NOT CORRECT. even the US Army's light aviation (based on the Cessna) is a TURBOPROP aircraft. ALL General Aviation Turboprop aircraft use Jet A fuel. The military turboprops use JP8. This fuel is less explosive and more uniform in its burn rates than AVGAS. In addition, a year before the First Gulf War, the Army started pushing a concept called "One Fuel Forward" where they only used ONE FUEL TYPE for all equipment and vehicles. That fuel was JP8. Yes, we began putting JET FUEL in diesel trucks in 1990. The initial issue was clogged fuel filters because the detergents in the JP8 "washed out" the contaminants from older fuels used before it. The second issue was that not all issued equipment used diesel fuel. The Army still had batches of older equipment that required MOGAS (gasoline). By the time of the Twilight War, diesel use would be "universal" and so would JP8. Any pilot would only need to look as far as the nearest tanker with "prewar" fuel production in it to find JP8 Jet Fuel. Civil aviation (which normally uses Jet A) can use JP8 as well. Fuel really won't be the issue for military aviation that GDW made it out to be.

Another issue is Biodiesel and Diesel being different fuels. The game has diesel engines using alcohol which is a questionable move. The diesel engines should be using Biodiesel made with Ethanol. Contrary to the opinions of an uninformed minority, there is NO DIFFERENCE in fuel economy OR power between the two. In fact, most diesels can run on FUEL OIL/HOME HEATING OIL. The fuels we were using in the 4/92nd and 475th prior to the JP8 were diesel in name only. You could lube a chassis with some of it. Virgin Airlines also proved that with sufficient detergents added, Biodiesel CAN BE USED BY JETS. They flew using highly-refined BIOWILLY'S (owned by Willy Nelson) without incident. In addition, most Jet Fuels are just highly refined Kerosene. With the right additives, Kerosene can be used to operate jet or turboprop aircraft. Anyone with Chemistry can formulate those additives.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by bash

Avgas for planes wouldn't be any more of a problem than fuel normally is in T2K, after all somehow Diesel engines can run on alcohol.

According to The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel, it can be done either by mixing vegetable oil with the alcohol at levels of 5-20% to lubricate the injectors or by making a "diesohol" of 80% alcohol and 20% diesel. In both cases, it has to be anhydrous and is incredibly moisture-sensitive. I've also read about a system that's not moisture sensitive, but it requires a lot more modification. That one uses a small amount of diesel (as little as 5%) and injects high-proof alcohol from a second tank.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

That one uses a small amount of diesel (as little as 5%) and injects high-proof alcohol from a second tank.

That's likely the method most mechanics use in T2K, substituting something else (vegetable oil perhaps) for the small amount of diesel.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That's likely the method most mechanics use in T2K, substituting something else (vegetable oil perhaps) for the small amount of diesel.

I don't think vegetable oil will work. Most plant oils tend to have high autoignition temperatures (406C for cooking oil, 424C for canola, 435C for olive). Kerosene (which can be distilled from the liquid obtained from heating shale or coal) is at 220C, closer to diesel's 256C.

[Legbreaker]

Biodiesel is generally made from vegetable oil. https://www.thoughtco.com/make-biodi...ble-oil-605975

[rcaf_777]

Another Option strange that no one as talked about UAV