OT Gibraltar

[RN7]

Anyone been following the escalation of tension between Britain and Spain over Gibraltar.

EU law has given Spain the right to veto Gibraltar's future trade relations with the rest of the EU following Britain's withdrawal from the EU due to BREXIT, as Gibraltar has been a British overseas territory since 1713. Spain's foreign minister has said it will now not block a future Scottish EU membership bid, which will only happen if Scotland becomes independent from the rest of the UK. This of course could lead to Britain to supporting Catalan and Basque independence from Spain, and maybe Spanish territories in Morocco which lie on the other side of the Strait of Gibraltar.

Lord Howard, the former Tory leader, has said that Theresa May would go to war to defend Gibraltar’s sovereignty. He said that Theresa May would show the same resolve over Gibraltar as Margaret Thatcher did over the Falklands.

I'm just waiting for Argentina to open its big mouth about this, and then Putin and Trump to stir some more crap.

Does anyone think that Spain could take Gibraltar at the moment?

[rcaf_777]

What would Spain have to gain by taking Gibraltar?

99% of people living in Gibraltar voted in 2002 for a British Government not a Spanish one.

So what dose the Spanish Government gain from taking this rock? Maybe this is another ploy to keep the UK in the EU?

[RN7]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

What would Spain have to gain by taking Gibraltar?

99% of people living in Gibraltar voted in 2002 for a British Government not a Spanish one.

So what dose the Spanish Government gain from taking this rock? Maybe this is another ploy to keep the UK in the EU?

I believe they voted 98.7% for Britain and 1.03% for Spain, 96% also supported continued membership for Gibraltar of the EU during BREXIT. But Spain has had a techy relationship with Britain over the issue of Gibraltar since the 18th Century, and the Spanish are quite emotional over it and in fact so are the British. Even into modern times there has been a lot of border tensions between both parties over Gibraltar.

I think the EU law that now applies to Gibraltar with Spain retaining a right to veto future trade links between Gibraltar and the rest of the EU was not deliberate, and was done as an afterthought as nobody seriously expected Britain to leave the EU. But now we are here and the law is in extant and is causing a lot of political tension in Britain. The more hardline section of EU negotiators could cause Britain some trouble over this, and Spain is certainly not helping.

Lets not forget that Gibraltar is fairly important strategically, and it is a lot more important to both Britain and Spain and also much closer to Britain than the Falklands Islands.

[simonmark6]

From my reading of things, the veto is a paper tiger. As a member of the EU it has a veto on all treaties and deals before they are ratified. This happened recently when a region of Belgium held up the ratification of a trade deal with Canada. This particular veto is nothing they didn't have. Effectively it's the EU strengthening its hand for the negotiations.

As for can Spain take Gibraltar, of course it could. Whether it could keep it is another matter. It's similar to Howard saying we would defend it like we defended the Falklands. I hope that doesn't mean we're going to let the Spanish walk in and then spend inordinate amounts of money and lives to take it back. If we spend lives to have to liberate Gibrateans on the scale we did to liberate a proportionate number of Falklanders we won't have much of an army left.

It's all moot though, Spain is not going to try and retake the Rock. They may be gits about things but they aren't stupid.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

As for can Spain take Gibraltar, of course it could. Whether it could keep it is another matter. It's similar to Howard saying we would defend it like we defended the Falklands. I hope that doesn't mean we're going to let the Spanish walk in and then spend inordinate amounts of money and lives to take it back. If we spend lives to have to liberate Gibrateans on the scale we did to liberate a proportionate number of Falklanders we won't have much of an army left.

It's all moot though, Spain is not going to try and retake the Rock. They may be gits about things but they aren't stupid.

The principle difference between the Falklands and Gibraltar would be that Britain doesn't need aircraft carriers to attack Spanish forces, as the whole Iberian Peninsula is within range of RAF strike aircraft in the UK.

[simonmark6]

Originally Posted by RN7

The principle difference between the Falklands and Gibraltar would be that Britain doesn't need aircraft carriers to attack Spanish forces, as the whole Iberian Peninsula is within range of RAF strike aircraft in the UK.

That's true. Plus we could encourage our Fifth Element in Spain to flood the health care system by faking cardiac arrests all at once.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

The principle difference between the Falklands and Gibraltar would be that Britain doesn't need aircraft carriers to attack Spanish forces, as the whole Iberian Peninsula is within range of RAF strike aircraft in the UK.

As were the Falklands

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck

[unkated]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

As for can Spain take Gibraltar, of course it could. Whether it could keep it is another matter. It's similar to Howard saying we would defend it like we defended the Falklands. I hope that doesn't mean we're going to let the Spanish walk in and then spend inordinate amounts of money and lives to take it back.

Would the US be required to aid both sides due to treaty obligations? We proved to be a faithless ally in for both sides in the Falklands

Hmmm. Could this rip NATO apart, and allow Russia the chance to seize Ukraine and the Balkans in the confusion! (to relate it to T2K)
Then it nukes NATO bases in Poland and Hungary!
A rump NATO scarmbles to counter without Britain, precipitating the Twilight War!
France rebuffs a British request to allow its troops in Germany passage through France!
China seizes its chance and attacks the Russian Far East!
North Korea seizes its chance and attacks South Korea! It hits US bases in Japan with conventional warheads on missiles to diminish US airpower!
Liberal Americans, fearing Trump will trigger a massive counterstrike inviting full nuclear retaliation from Russia and China, riot in Washington, lynching Trump and his staff in the process!

(T2K17!)

Makes almost as much sense to me as the V2.2 timeline

Uncle Ted

[James Langham2]

A few random thoughts:

* In 2002 the Royal Marines accidentally invaded Spain on an exercise when they landed on the wrong beach when attacking Gibraltar

*The rock apes are actually members of the British Army with regimental numbers...

* Shameless plug for my article about Gibraltar available on this site

[unkated]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

What would Spain have to gain by taking Gibraltar?

99% of people living in Gibraltar voted in 2002 for a British Government not a Spanish one.

So what dose the Spanish Government gain from taking this rock? Maybe this is another ploy to keep the UK in the EU?

I will remind you sir, senor, that chunk of rock was part of Spain long before it was covered by an English flag.

Gain? Why, 300 years of back taxes on property would be a tidy sum for the Spanish governmental coffers, not to mention taxes on Gibraltar banking...

Plus the Spanish Navy gains the ability to close the Pillars of Hercules whenever Spain feels the need to collect a toll.

A vote? Who voted? How did Gibraltar natives of Spanish descent vote? Not British ex-pats or the children of British ex-pats - they are interlopers and their vote should not count.

If you were taking a vote in Crimea, would you allows Russian soldiers of the occupying force to vote? Of course not.

And the Rock apes - the actual apes - has anyone polled them? Wouldn't they be happier with all the pesky English military gone and all those facilities turned to an ape preserve?

Entirely (well, mostly entirely) facetiously,
Uncle Ted

[Silent Hunter UK]

Originally Posted by unkated

And the Rock apes - the actual apes - has anyone polled them? Wouldn't they be happier with all the pesky English military gone and all those facilities turned to an ape preserve?

Entirely (well, mostly entirely) facetiously,
Uncle Ted

Having visited the Rock and had one of them land on my head, I honestly don't think they care.

Also the Arabs were there first... ;-)

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter UK

Having visited the Rock and had one of them land on my head, I honestly don't think they care.

Also the Arabs were there first... ;-)

The Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Romans and Visigoths were there before the Arabs. And the Neanderthals were there before Homo sapiens sapiens!!

[RN7]

Originally Posted by unkated

I will remind you sir, senor, that chunk of rock was part of Spain long before it was covered by an English flag. Uncle Ted

Its been a British territory for longer than the United States has existed.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by RN7

Its been a British territory for longer than the United States has existed.

True. Does that mean you will take us back and save us from Trump?

Uncle Ted

[RN7]

Originally Posted by unkated

True. Does that mean you will take us back and save us from Trump?

Uncle Ted

Oh I'm not British Unkated!!