T:2013 Missing Weapons?

[3catcircus]

So I'm looking at the master ammo list and cross referencing to the core, addendum, and shooters guides. It looks like some ammo is missing (.32 extra short) as are some weapons (master ammo list includes .17 HMR and 7.62 Tokarev but I can't find what what weapons were included that use it).

Am I just blind?

[Legbreaker]

I believe this has been pointed out before and from memory there are weapons tucked away in obscure corners that use them as alternate calibres.
Not an expert on T:13 myself though, just repeating what I can remember.

[Tegyrius]

Some weapon stats may have been posted on the old 93GS forum and never saved when it went away. It's also possible that we ran the calculations on those calibers in response to fan requests and never actually generated "official" stats. The inclusion of .17 HMR is odd and I can't recall ever stating out a rifle that fired it. On the other hand, I am astonished that I never published stats for anything in 7.62 Tokarev... it's possible I ran those numbers for the Czech weapons sourcebook I never wrote.

- C.

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Some weapon stats may have been posted on the old 93GS forum and never saved when it went away. It's also possible that we ran the calculations on those calibers in response to fan requests and never actually generated "official" stats. The inclusion of .17 HMR is odd and I can't recall ever stating out a rifle that fired it. On the other hand, I am astonished that I never published stats for anything in 7.62 Tokarev... it's possible I ran those numbers for the Czech weapons sourcebook I never wrote.

- C.

Yep. I was surprised at the including of both of those calibres without weapons. I also noted 4.6mm H&K was included without reference as well.

I think that part of this is the old master ammo list is by cartridge type rather than by use in some cases (so the. 30 carbine is listed as a rifle cartridge even though the multiple flavors of the M1 carbine are more detailed in the Pistol Caliber Carbine s supplement).

No matter, between the cheeks design guidelines and the ballistics calculator, the most difficult thing for any new weapon or caliber is finding out the prices...

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Some weapon stats may have been posted on the old 93GS forum and never saved when it went away. It's also possible that we ran the calculations on those calibers in response to fan requests and never actually generated "official" stats. The inclusion of .17 HMR is odd and I can't recall ever stating out a rifle that fired it. On the other hand, I am astonished that I never published stats for anything in 7.62 Tokarev... it's possible I ran those numbers for the Czech weapons sourcebook I never wrote.

- C.

What other regions/nations were planned for publication besides Czechoslovakia?

I'm in the process of taking the core, addendum, and shooters guides and reassembling a personal document to roll all the weapons into one document, apply errata, and rearrange sections (e.g. equipment before combat, exploration and upkeep after combat).

I'm thinking that running through the v2 supplements to bounce off the list of weapons might be a worthy endeavour (and maybe segregate availability by era). Is there a similar set of guidelines for heavy weapons and vehicles as there is for small arms? It looks like the heavy ordnance uses a variation in the demo points to determine equivalent amount of TNT, but I'm struggling with the Blast and Frag values.

[pmulcahy11b]

I guess I have to admit -- I never really took a good look at T:2013, even though I was given a free PDF copy by the designers and actually bought some of the supplements. Guess I have some reading to do if I want to comment in an intelligent manner.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

...if I want to comment in an intelligent manner.

But this is the internet! You're not supposed to actually THINK before commenting!

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I guess I have to admit -- I never really took a good look at T:2013, even though I was given a free PDF copy by the designers and actually bought some of the supplements. Guess I have some reading to do if I want to comment in an intelligent manner.

I'm a fan of the mechanics - roll a number of d20s based upon number of skill points you have, and try to roll under the target number which is your controlling attribute. So - firing a rifle uses Longarms skill and the TN is your Coordination attribute. There are modifiers based upon various factors. An unskilled person rolls 2 d20s and has to take the higher roll. Max skill points in the skill gets you I think 8 d20s. First successful roll that is lower than the TN gives you margin of success (so if TN is 12 and you roll 8, MoS is 4). Each additional successful roll adds 2 to the MoS. There are equivalents of crits and fumbles as well. The total MoS gets added to the basic damage of the weapon.

The "hit points" are nice because they are used as a comparator to the damage rather than having damage subtracted like in D&D. The results of that comparison determine wound severity and additional effects (shock, bleeding, instability, etc.)

I don't know how realistic it is, but it gives the feeling of realism. For those that like fiddly bits, the Stage III ballistics adjust damage and penetration based upon range.

It's a shame really, that it never got the mainstream love it deserves. It's a worthy successor, mechanics-wise, to v1 and v2/2.2.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by 3catcircus

So I'm looking at the master ammo list and cross referencing to the core, addendum, and shooters guides. It looks like some ammo is missing (.32 extra short) as are some weapons (master ammo list includes .17 HMR and 7.62 Tokarev but I can't find what what weapons were included that use it).

Am I just blind?

I'd never heard of .32 Extra Short! Now I'll have to come up with something that fires it, eventually...

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I'd never heard of .32 Extra Short! Now I'll have to come up with something that fires it, eventually...

Here's a suggestion

http://www.americancowboychronicles....l-of-1882.html

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I'd never heard of .32 Extra Short! Now I'll have to come up with something that fires it, eventually...

The Protector Palm Pistol/Turbiaux Disc Pistol (1883-1910) and Remington Rider (1871-1888) are the two guns I know of that fire .32 Extra Short. Remington made a cartridge with a 54 grain bullet, while Winchester put an 80 grain bullet on their .32 Extra Short cartridge, both of which were black powder rimfire rounds. The Imperial War Museum lists it as a 7.65x9mmR, and of course Gun Jesus has a video for that. The Rider has a ~3" barrel and 5 shot tube magazine, while the Protector has a 1.75" barrel and 7 shots in a rotary magazine.

[Vespers War]

OK, so here's a rough go at the two .32 Extra Short pistols using FF&S, which really isn't intended for something as funky as a squeeze-trigger palm pistol. Both have extremely low range, which makes sense for a small black powder round from short barrels - these are for settling poker disputes, not military use.

I used an article at The American Cowboy for additional information on the Protector. Reloading involves taking the pistol apart, so it's incredibly slow and requires tools. Figure it can't be done in combat, but can be done during a non-combat 4-hour period regardless of what else is being done.

Protector Palm Pistol, Model of 1882
Wt 0.30 kg, DAR, Mag 7i, Rld ?, Dam 1, Pen Nil, Bulk 1, SS 4, Rng 2


For the Remington-Rider, I couldn't find the weight after a decent amount of Google searching, so I assumed it's similar to the Protector just for the sake of getting some sort of stats out there. FF&S is insistent it can only have a 3-round tubular magazine, but the actual weapon's known to hold 5 rounds. While the tube is detachable, it has no way to keep rounds from being ejected while detached, so spare tubes cannot be used like detachable magazines. Thus, the magazine is 5i instead of 5 to reflect having to load each round and keep the end of the tube blocked to avoid premature ejection. While it's not a revolver per se, SAR is closest to emulating how the hammer and breech block have to be drawn back to eject the spent round and load a new one from the magazine.

Remington-Rider Magazine Pistol, Model of 1871
Wt 0.30 kg, SAR, Mag 5i, Rld 1, Dam 1, Pen Nil, Bulk 1, SS 5, Rng 4

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

OK, so here's a rough go at the two .32 Extra Short pistols using FF&S, which really isn't intended for something as funky as a squeeze-trigger palm pistol. Both have extremely low range, which makes sense for a small black powder round from short barrels - these are for settling poker disputes, not military use.

I used an article at The American Cowboy for additional information on the Protector. Reloading involves taking the pistol apart, so it's incredibly slow and requires tools. Figure it can't be done in combat, but can be done during a non-combat 4-hour period regardless of what else is being done.

Protector Palm Pistol, Model of 1882
Wt 0.30 kg, DAR, Mag 7i, Rld ?, Dam 1, Pen Nil, Bulk 1, SS 4, Rng 2


For the Remington-Rider, I couldn't find the weight after a decent amount of Google searching, so I assumed it's similar to the Protector just for the sake of getting some sort of stats out there. FF&S is insistent it can only have a 3-round tubular magazine, but the actual weapon's known to hold 5 rounds. While the tube is detachable, it has no way to keep rounds from being ejected while detached, so spare tubes cannot be used like detachable magazines. Thus, the magazine is 5i instead of 5 to reflect having to load each round and keep the end of the tube blocked to avoid premature ejection. While it's not a revolver per se, SAR is closest to emulating how the hammer and breech block have to be drawn back to eject the spent round and load a new one from the magazine.

Remington-Rider Magazine Pistol, Model of 1871
Wt 0.30 kg, SAR, Mag 5i, Rld 1, Dam 1, Pen Nil, Bulk 1, SS 5, Rng 4

The Minneapols Protector is contained in the Undercover Arms Shooter Guide. I assume the .32ES wasn't in the ammo list because of the difficulty in finding it other than as a custom production nowadays.

I also wonder how loads like the .44-40 and .45 Magnum are, quantity-wise - I'm guessing those are mostly handloads nowadays; but if society collapses I'd expect most ammo to be handloads anyway unless the collapse isn't complete enough to put manufacturers out of business. Actually, the current pandemic situation might be a good analogue - ammo is *scarce* right now. I imagine that in the ramp up to a nuclear conflict, between people in a "see it, buy it" mode in regards to common calibers and givens ramping up military production, that it would be even more difficult to buy.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by 3catcircus

The Minneapols Protector is contained in the Undercover Arms Shooter Guide. I assume the .32ES wasn't in the ammo list because of the difficulty in finding it other than as a custom production nowadays.

The Minneapolis Protector uses .32 Protector, a Benet primed centerfire cartridge that's slightly smaller than the .32 Extra Short (0.365" case length to 0.390"). The .32ES (rimfire) was used by the Chicago Protector and Remington-Rider. The rimfire .32ES can be made by Roberson Cartridge Company, which uses an offset .22 blank as the rimfire method. I don't know of anyone making the centerfire .32ES, but a .32 BB cap is almost the same size (difference of .007 inches in case length).