Aliens - 1986 movie (was Dog Soldiers)

[Targan]

Originally Posted by copeab

Not just isolated, but faced with something clearly outside of their experience and training., but maintaining discipline anyway. The Colonial Marines in Aliens come off very poorly to the troops in Dog Soldiers.

Aliens is my favourite film of all time. It was sad that the Colonial Marine squad in that film was led by a green new Lt. He was a total loser and they should have fragged him at the earliest opportunity. If they hadn't lost Sgt Apone so early on they might have done better, he was very crusty. You have to admit, the machine gunner Vasquez and Cpl Hicks were very effective. The other machine gunner, Drake, was also hard as nails but didn't do so well once he was covered in acid then set on fire.

[Legbreaker]

Drake certainly kicked arse up until that point with both machinegun and then flamer.

Speaking of game mechanics, T2K tends to punish those who don't follow common sense. Aliens takes that idea and runs another mile or two with it.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Targan

the machine gunner Vasquez

My favorite piece of trivia about Aliens is that the actress who played Vasquez really did show up for the movie audition expecting it to be about illegal aliens. The joke from the film (regarding illegal aliens) was added because of that.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kato13

My favorite piece of trivia about Aliens is that the actress who played Vasquez really did show up for the movie audition expecting it to be about illegal aliens. The joke from the film (regarding illegal aliens) was added because of that.

Hah! I didn't know that, thanks. Very funny!

I love this quote from Al Matthews who played Sgt Apone - "I spent six years in the United States Marine Corps; I hold thirteen combat awards and decorations, including two purple hearts. I was the first black Marine in the 1st Marine Division in Viet Nam, to be meritoriously promoted to the rank of sergeant; I served with Kilo Battery, Fourth Battalion, 11th Marines, 1st Marine Division, of that I am very proud."

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

To quote graebarde from the original post: -
graebardeII 12-19-2005, 08:07 PM
...Actually it was Last of the Dogmen starring Tom Berenger. The People were Cheyenne, Northern Cheyenne to be more specific...

grae
********************

As for Aliens, it would not have mattered who led the team, who survived or even what military they were from, James Cameron wanted a gunfight/survive-against-the-odds movie so things were always going to happen in the way they did. If it had been realistic it would have been a whole lot less entertaining.
The other trivia piece about Vasquez is that she wasn't even played by a latina but by Jenette Goldstein, who might be remembered from yet another Cameron movie, John Connor's foster mother in Terminator 2

Yes, IIRC, she's actually a freckle-faced redhead. I remember reading in People that the makeup artists had fits covering up her freckles.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

The other trivia piece about Vasquez is that she wasn't even played by a latina but by Jenette Goldstein, who might be remembered from yet another Cameron movie, John Connor's foster mother in Terminator 2

The 1987 film Near Dark has several of the actors from Aliens in it including Jenette Goldstein, Lance Henriksen and Bill Paxton. Not a bad film IMO.

The Wikipedia article on Aliens shows the full names of the Colonial Marines (many of which I didn't know) and its interesting that the writers used the actors' real first names for the characters they played.

[Legbreaker]

Probably made it easier on the actors. If they made a slip and used their real name, there would be no need to edit it out or reshoot the scene.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Probably made it easier on the actors. If they made a slip and used their real name, there would be no need to edit it out or reshoot the scene.

That's what I thought too. In the original script, before filming started, the characters were probably only referred to by their surnames. There would be no downside to writing in their first names as the actors' first names.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

That's what I thought too. In the original script, before filming started, the characters were probably only referred to by their surnames. There would be no downside to writing in their first names as the actors' first names.

Bishop's full name was Lance Bishop 341-B; sort of makes you think how many androids were based on the original Lance Bishop's template. And it has to be an ego trip -- having a series of Androids, with far better abilities than you, but wearing your face and body.

I also remember the scene where he's about to go down through the tunnels with Bishop and Newt; he's handed a handgun, which he refuses. Makes you wonder after experience with earlier androids, they programmed Asimov's Three Robotic Laws into the androids.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I also remember the scene where he's about to go down through the tunnels with Bishop and Newt; he's handed a handgun, which he refuses. Makes you wonder after experience with earlier androids, they programmed Asimov's Three Robotic Laws into the androids.

I have thought many times about that scene. I don't think his decision was directly related to Asimov's laws of robotics as Bishop wasn't anticipating combat with humans, but possibly indirectly related in that perhaps androids, even androids assigned to military missions, were deliberately not programmed with any direct combat skills.

Then again perhaps Asimov's laws of robotics were precisely the reason he didn't take the pistol - perhaps he thought that by taking it he would be denying the use of one of the few available weapons to the remaining humans, thereby placing them at greater risk. Through reading Ripley's reports on her original alien encounter, his own research in the colony science lab, his own observations and through processes of logic Bishop may have (probably correctly) come to the conclusion that the aliens would be unlikely to attack a non-living object such as himself if it presented no direct threat to them. The queen alien was much smarter than her drones however and obviously did consider Bishop to be a threat or potential threat when she ripped him in half aboard the Sulaco.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Targan

You have to admit, the machine gunner Vasquez and Cpl Hicks were very effective. The other machine gunner, Drake, was also hard as nails but didn't do so well once he was covered in acid then set on fire.

Drake and Vasquez struck me as quite undisciplined. They had no intention of obeying the order to not have gunfire under the reactor and Drake opened fire on Newt when she first appeared.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by copeab

Drake and Vasquez struck me as quite undisciplined. They had no intention of obeying the order to not have gunfire under the reactor and Drake opened fire on Newt when she first appeared.

On the other hand, they did have a complete novice for an officer and they themselves had probably been involved in dozens of combat missions. Trust, or more accurately lack of, was definately an issue. Ensuring the machineguns were operable when going under the reactor was obviously a good thing in the short term (it allowed at least a few to escape), but long term was another matter.

Gorman should have explained WHY firing was not allowed and immediately withdrew the marines, re-equipped them with shotguns, flamers and whatever else non-penetrating they had. Sending them onwards with little more than four flamers was just plain criminal.

Can any of us say they wouldn't have done the same as Vasquez and Drake if in a similar situation?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

On the other hand, they did have a complete novice for an officer and they themselves had probably been involved in dozens of combat missions. Trust, or more accurately lack of, was definately an issue. Ensuring the machineguns were operable when going under the reactor was obviously a good thing in the short term (it allowed at least a few to escape), but long term was another matter.

I agree. As it turned out though it was the drop ship crashing into the side of the atmosphere processor that caused it to go critical, not the firing of weapons inside.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Gorman should have explained WHY firing was not allowed and immediately withdrew the marines, re-equipped them with shotguns, flamers and whatever else non-penetrating they had. Sending them onwards with little more than four flamers was just plain criminal.

Agreed. Gorman should have thought about the location before sending in the section though. Once they were inside the structure their comms were very patchy. A detailed explanation of why weapons should not be fired inside probably would have been half buried in static once they were in.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Can any of us say they wouldn't have done the same as Vasquez and Drake if in a similar situation?

No. I think Drake and Vasquez did exactly the right thing. Even if they had disrupted the cooling system the facility wouldn't have gone up right away. They all would have had time to get back to the Sulaco and watch the whole facility turn into a glowing glass bowl. Problem solved. Carter Burke was the only one who was insisting that the facility be saved because of the "significant dollar value attached to it". They should have strung him up by the balls at the earliest opportunity.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

As it turned out though it was the drop ship crashing into the side of the atmosphere processor that caused it to go critical, not the firing of weapons inside.

Hmm, must be a different movie you're been watching...
The APC was moving away from the processor and from what I can remember the dropship crashed from the rear of the APC (taking it out in the process) and ended up spread across a very wide area of broken, but open ground.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Hmm, must be a different movie you're been watching...
The APC was moving away from the processor and from what I can remember the dropship crashed from the rear of the APC (taking it out in the process) and ended up spread across a very wide area of broken, but open ground.

Yes the dropship hit the APC, then the bulk of it tumbled into the processing plant. I have the extended edition on my hard drive, you can see it quite clearly. Also the write up of the film in Wikipedia suggests that it was the dropship crash rather than firing inside the facility that caused it to go critical. That makes sense when you consider the difference between the energy released by the relatively small amount of firing inside compared to many tonnes of dropship travelling at high speed, plus ordnance, hitting the side of the facility.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Typical American gung-ho attitudes...

Wow. Nice.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Typical American gung-ho attitudes...

I'm reminded of a line from The Golden Child, "Ahh, those wonderful Americans. So much power, and so little idea of what to do with it."

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I'm reminded of a line from The Golden Child, "Ahh, those wonderful Americans. So much power, and so little idea of what to do with it."

"He is like Germany ,ambitious but misunderstood"

[Eddie]

Maybe I should have used the sarcmark to convey my meaning.

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by headquarters

"He is like Germany ,ambitious but misunderstood"

Someday you should explain where that quote comes from. Having just spent a ghastly amount of time researching the Great War, that really sounds like something someone would say during the first decade of the 20th Century.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[DigTw0Grav3s]

A couple thoughts from a relative newcomer of the board. I apologize for the timing, considering that things seem to have calmed down, but now seems to be the time to do so.

First, a little bit about me. I never played the T2k product line. I was brought aboard through Twilight 2013. Accordingly, I don't have a lot of the same mores regarding canon vs non-canon, unit dispositions throughout the timeline, and the like. I don't expect this to carry any weight - in fact, I would bet that it reduces my "authenticity" - but it illustrates my background.

The tone on this forum is truly bizarre. People seem to be more interested in debating the nature of canon rather than simply cooking up their own versions and sharing them with others. I find the confrontational nature of the board absurd.

I am twenty-four years old. I seem to gather that the crowd here is much older than I am, given the date of the original T2k and some of the life experiences that I've seen related to one another in posts. Why, then, can't we all get along? Is this anyone's first forum? This is a board about an exchange of ideas and creation of new material. Calling one another out about the canon status of various material is simply stupid. This is a work of fiction about a war that never occurred.

If people need to be removed from the boards because of confrontational behavior, then I would submit that it be done immediately. I've spent a great deal of time on forums during my life. In my experience, people's personalities (perhaps "personas" is more accurate) do not change. Their troublesome personalities simply ebb and flow like a sine wave until something breaks. Given the tone, I would say that we are pretty close to something breaking.

Also, someone please get Eddie to come back. He was one of the principle reasons that I perused this board, as he was on the 93 Games board. I enjoyed his no bullshit attitude and his experience in a field directly relevant to our alternate history pursuits.

Thanks,
DigTw0Grav3s
(Earlydawn)

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I'd always thought the guidance was contained within the weapon itself.

I'd always assumed that too. I don't own a copy of the Colonial Marines Technical Manual but I do have a copy of the Aliens RPG packed away somewhere.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

I'd always assumed that too. I don't own a copy of the Colonial Marines Technical Manual but I do have a copy of the Aliens RPG packed away somewhere.

I have a PDF version somewhere, but I've never read it. Maybe I should take it with me when I take my mom to her doctor's appointment tomorrow (it'll be a long one; she's getting some sort of special EEG done), but I have to find it first...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

I don't own a copy of the Colonial Marines Technical Manual but I do have a copy of the Aliens RPG packed away somewhere.

Look long enough and you'll find anything online...
http://gbxforums.gearboxsoftware.com...t=69278&page=2
It's only a few excerpts, but it is cut and pasted word for word.

[kato13]

Since I just was looking up what parts made up the M4A1 puls rifle as I thought the base was a spas-12 (turns out they only used the grip). I thought I would provide a link to the Internet Movie Firearms Database for aliens.

http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title=Aliens

For those who have not seen it is a pretty cool site overall.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Wasn't it based on the Thompson or similar smg? I didn't know they used SPAS-12 parts but now that you mention it, it is kind of obvious when you look at the grenade launcher section


Update: I've just read the entry at the Movie Firearms Database and found out it was the thompson and not my eyes playing tricks on me

[kato13]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Wasn't it based on the Thompson or similar smg? I didn't know they used SPAS-12 parts but now that you mention it, it is kind of obvious when you look at the grenade launcher section

Yeah the main gun was a Thompson and the grenade launcher was a 12 gauge shotgun.

[Legbreaker]

There were three weapons that made up the pulse rifle, the Thompson, SPAS-12 and the Remington 870.

The original had however used the MP-5 in place of the Thompson but the 9mm wasn't able to give enough of a flash so they switch to the larger calibre weapon.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by kato13

Yeah the main gun was a Thompson and the grenade launcher was a 12 gauge shotgun.

I don't understand that; in the movie, they used a 12-gauge shotgun as the grenade launcher (12-Gauge = 18.52mm), but the Colonial Marines Handbook
says the GL is 30mm. When I made up the M-41A for my Best Weapons that Never Were section, I (IIRC) pegged it at 20mm (With a tech level of 11). There is no way that GL is 30mm!

[Legbreaker]

The Aliens rulebook also states it as 30mm and I think it's mentioned as 30mm in the movie too.
Now if only they'd had a 30mm shotgun laying about they could have used for the props....