Surplus armor in T2K

[schnickelfritz]

To all-
I'm sorry if this has been discussed here previously, as I am new to the forum.

I reenact WW2 and have had the luck of coming into contact with WW2 and postwar armor from a variety of nations. In the Midwest US we have M-5 tanks, your odd M4A3 Sherman, M-36's, a pair of Hetzer/G-13 tank destroyers, and a gaggle of US M-2 & M-3 series half tracks. There are even several (four that I've seen and/or touched personally) Czech OT-810 halftracks running within a hundred mile radius of Chicago.

Has the use of older armor (including obsolete cold war stuff) been ever discussed for a CONUS campaign? The half tracks and scout cars are fairly common for what they are, but I see some real wierd stuff from time to time pop up that had been practically hidden in garages over the years.

Just don't ask me why someone would go through all that trouble to never run it or show it...I can't get my head around that one.

It would seem to me that having a half track and/or M-20 available to a local militia would be really valuable, even if only armed with 30 or 50-cal MG's. With the exception of the German WW2 stuff, most of if cannot be easier to work on. Occaisionally I see something like a M5 Stuart pop up in a town square from time to time. There is even a M60A3 in very good shape about 20 miles from here that was donated 5-10 years ago. It appears to be a M60A3 TTS.

About 2 miles from here a guy built a M35 2.5ton gun truck ala Vietnam...no, it is not named "Eve of Destruction." it still looks sharp in black with red lettering, though.

-Thoughts?

Thanks!
Dave

[raketenjagdpanzer]

There is a guy in California - you can see his collection on Tank Fixers - who has no fewer than 20 operational or at the worst semi-operational MBTs spanning all eras including the 1970's/80's with a handful of T62s and '72s.

Additionally, he has a machine shop capable of completely rebuilding tanks if need be.

I think the guy is far enough away from any metropolitan areas that in the event he'd be safe...and he'd become a huge asset for whomever could convince him (in whatever manner) to work for them - CivGov, MilGov, marauders, what have you.

Shit I could see in terms of sheer desperation stuff being pulled out of armor and military museums; a working Sherman is still a tank, and when your opponent is a bunch of guys with hunting rifles crouched behind a log and dirt berm...well...advantage: tank owner.

[Legbreaker]

Even without working weaponry/ammo an armoured vehicle is still very valuable. Firstly there's the intimidation factor, and secondly, they literally weigh tonnes! They can roll over and crush infantry, light vehicles and emplacements.
Naturally equipping said older AFVs with working weaponry only enhances their value.

Almost anywhere you look in the world you will find collectors or museums which will either be raided or form the core of an armoured force of some type. As a GM, almost anything can be justified, provided of course it's not the local US police force armed with a brand new T-80 (A T-55 is possible though).

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

It would seem to me that having a half track and/or M-20 available to a local militia would be really valuable, even if only armed with 30 or 50-cal MG's. With the exception of the German WW2 stuff, most of if cannot be easier to work on. Occaisionally I see something like a M5 Stuart pop up in a town square from time to time. There is even a M60A3 in very good shape about 20 miles from here that was donated 5-10 years ago. It appears to be a M60A3 TTS.

About 2 miles from here a guy built a M35 2.5ton gun truck ala Vietnam...no, it is not named "Eve of Destruction." it still looks sharp in black with red lettering, though.

Dave,

Welcome to the list (or at least with regards to posting actively).

I don't think this has been specifically discussed but it's very germane. During the Yugoslav civil war, T-34/85s were pulled out of museums and other places (the back of the motor pool in some cases) and thrown into battle. The following is a knocked-out T-34/85. The middle road wheels are from a T-55:



At any rate, it makes sense that anything would be pressed into service. In the Aftermath adventure "Empire of Karo" the city-state has put some M4 Shermans into service by installing diesel bus engines.

What would the stats be for an older tank like an M4, powered by a bus engine? Just curious.

Tony

[irishboy]

I've got a tangent to go off on here.

I read a newspaper article about this company a year or two ago, and comments of the OP made me think of it right away.

http://www.driveatank.com/

This is a business run by a collector. There were postings for 'tanks for sale' even!

This all happens about 90 minutes south of Minneapolis, MN.

Back to the topic though, it's a great point. There's quite a few armored vehicles out there if you know where to look.

[Canadian Army]

There would also would be fare number of M113s around; as a number of police departments used it for SWAT operations; and fair bit in private hands (museums and private collections). On a side note NASA has three used for for emergency evacuation/firefighting.

[dragoon500ly]

There are a suprisingly large number of M-114s running around with the police, as well as V-100 and V-150 armored cars.

[HorseSoldier]

Additionally, he has a machine shop capable of completely rebuilding tanks if need be.

That would be part of the trick. The bottlenecks I see for vintage or unusual AFVs would include:

1) Mechanical know how -- You've got to have someone who can keep the thing(s) running. In some cases this wouldn't be too tough, in some cases it would be a huge trick (i.e. the Patton Museum has all kinds of trouble in real life just getting their Panther to crank and drive around a bit; post-apocalypse it's not going to be spearheading MilGov's drive to recapture Memphis).

2) Automotive logistics -- Either a big stack of spare or #1 plus something like the machine shop mentioned in the quote above or else you're either going to have static pill boxes or be leaving a trail of broken down antiques in your wake behind you during movements.

3) Ammunition and associated logistics -- Again, this one can be an easy one or a hard one depending on the specific weapons and such. I could be completely wrong, but I don't think the US government has any stocks anywhere of 76mm ammo to support an operational M4A3E8 Sherman, for instance. Short of a group coming into possession of a forgotten 50s era emergency stockpile, main guns wouldn't be supportable for most of the vintage US stuff. (Such a stockpile could explain sustainable supplies of spare parts and maybe even the vehicles themselves, too . . .)

4) Local stability -- If marauders are killing off your mechanical know how and burning the barns containing your antique armor to the ground before you can get the stuff combat ready, it's a show stopper. Likewise if things are so desperate that your mechanics have to spend all their time trying to hunt rats for the collective stew pot just to survive, it's a show stopper as well.

For CONUS operations post-TDM, I think the vintage armor I'd really want to lay hands on would be some M42 Dusters -- 40mm ammo would still have been available (even without alternate historying it to have the Sgt York program successful and in service) and enough vehicles and parts would have been around to keep them running if you had access to them (I always wonder about wikipedia, but it says the last NG unit equipped with them didn't retire them until 1988.) And from accounts from Korea and Vietnam, those things were absolute murdering pieces against troops in the open.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by irishboy

http://www.driveatank.com/

This is a business run by a collector. There were postings for 'tanks for sale' even!

This all happens about 90 minutes south of Minneapolis, MN.

Theres a few collectors here in Australia too that keep working AFVs for joyrides and sales. I've even heard of a couple of old Centurions being used as farm tractors.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Theres a few collectors here in Australia too that keep working AFVs for joyrides and sales. I've even heard of a couple of old Centurions being used as farm tractors.

That happens in a lot of former Eastern Bloc countries and Russia -- vehicles are demilled and used by logging companies, as vehicles to transport scientific teams across rough terrain, as rescue vehicles in firefighting, and other stuff. There's even a version of the BMP-1 called the Ladoga which is a luxury vehicle inside, and transport for VIPs in hazardous areas on the outside.

[Legbreaker]

I believe somewhere in north America (could be US, could be Canada) there's an M60 tank which is used for triggering avalanches (saw it on a doco a few years back).

[schnickelfritz]

The gentleman on the US West Coast with the huge MV collection is(was) the late Jaques Littlefield. He was out of the San francisco area and his estate is still functional (he passed in 2009) as the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...ogy_Foundation

http://www.mvtf.org/index.html

A German Pzkpfw IV Panther of any version was a nightmare to keep running, even under the best of circumstances. A recently retired M60A3 with a complete interior/driveline that could be crewed/maintained by veterans at the local VFW's would be a lot easier by comparison.

I wouldn't try to do that either, probably more so because it would totally imbalance the scenario/game.

What I had in mind were some of the easier to maintain MV's, especially those that have a lagely truck based driveline. As far as tanks go, the M3/M5 Stuart and M24 Chaffee (and derivatives) are powered with older GM V-8's ( flathead Cadillacs). I've seen an M5 repowered with a single basic 350 Chevy because the owner got a largely stripped hulk. Any place you can put a GM V-8, you can put the 6.2L/6.5L diesel from a HMMWV.

The White M3 Scout Car and M-2/3 series half tracks are ideal here; they won't totally imbalance a scenario, they are just as simple as it gets, and just about any truck mechanic can keep it running. You don't have to keep it running exactly the way it was built; you can always swap in the engine/trans and/or driveline of a HMMWV or M35.

The US half tracks really are trucks with the rear axles replaced with a rubber band track. Given some enginuity and the metalworking tools found on most farms, machine shops, and tool rooms, repairs and ressurection can be performed on an old MV within reason, especially if you have a covered workplace and all winter to work on it.

I've seen ground up restorations and band-aid grade restorations done by hobbyists with some aptitude and a decent trck based welder. Look around; there are heavy equipment repair trucks wherever you have excavating companies. If they don't have one on site, they have one on call. Most have a welder, air compressor, tools, and a crane in the 1-5 ton range, depending on the size of the repair truck.

It all depends on what you want to use it for. Do you want to do regular patrols with it? Perhaps then a surplus Ferret, M-3 scout car, or M-8/M-20 is better. They are easier on fuel and easier to keep running. For use as a response force, a couple of M-3 half tracks and/or gun trucks would work nicely. There was also a M-3 half track with a 81mm mortar in it called the M-4.

I'd really recommend anyone with an interest in this look around and find a reenactment local to them. There are several in Chicago throughout the warmer months and you can get up close to some of these vehicles and see just how easy they are to work on.

I just want to say that the intent was not to suggest trying to take a M-46/M-47/M-48 Patton off a concrete pad and attempt to use it. Most have been sitting far too long and have been stripped of most of the interior and driveline anyway. Most that I see probably aren't worth the fuel to drag them with bulldozers and the expertise you'd need to get it running probably isn't there anyway.

However, what's to say you couldn't get a M-5 Stuart running? The cannon barrel would have been plugged and the breech ring removed (the breech unscrews on the US 37mm), so I'd toss it and slide in a 50-cal MG. Pair that with a pair of 30-cal MG's in the hull/coax spots and you're in business.

Were some of the steering brakes unusable, you could probably cobble something together from a medium size bulldozer.

The Stuart also has the appeal of having dual driver controls; you can teach someone to drive while you ride in the bow gunner spot.

I wouldn't even bother trying to find, much less use ancient cannon/howitzer ammo. Even if you could find it, the main guns on almost all retired AFV's have been demilled by plugging the barrel and torch cutting the breach. Putting a live round in even a repaired weapon is asking for a fatal accident.

Were I to have time, I might even try to kitbash a model of a M5 Stuart hull with a Bradley turret on it!

Here are some of the vehicles I had in mind:
M-3 Scout Car
M-8 Armored Car
M-20 Armored Utility Car
Ferret Armored Car (UK)
Saracen 6x6 APC (UK)
Humber Pig (UK)
M-2 Half track
M-3 Half Track
M-3/M-5 Stuart Light Tank
M-24 Chaffee Light Tank
Universal (Bren) Carrier APC (UK/Canada)

I've tried to keep this at least semi-plausable, i.e. keeping it to those vehicles I've seen for sale in the US and those I've seen in the flesh wihin a couple hour drive of Chicago.

Like I said, I encourage anyone to get out there and take a look at the real thing if you can!

Thanks,
Dave

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Dave,

Welcome to the list (or at least with regards to posting actively).

I don't think this has been specifically discussed but it's very germane. During the Yugoslav civil war, T-34/85s were pulled out of museums and other places (the back of the motor pool in some cases) and thrown into battle...

Tony

I knew a guy many years back who toured Yugoslavia before the civil war and the two of us being interested in things military, he endeavoured to take photos of the various military things he saw (sometimes he was lucky, other times he wasn't).
One thing he wanted to take a pic of, that he couldn't because he was on holidays with his family (and they didn't want to stop the car so he could indulge his desires) was a group of tanks.

He was on a motorway when he spotted some army base or another and the vehicle park was filled with softskins and some APCs but what he wanted to photograph was the lines of T-34s parked up at the back of the motor pool. He estimated the number of T-34s at around the 80-100 mark.
This was a few years before the Yugoslav civil war and if I remember rightly, it was in the region of the Croatian/Serbian border (I think he and his family were heading for Belgrade).

[rcaf_777]

Lets not forget about the Avalanche control units of the US state and federal forest service, many of these unit have Working Artillery 105mm or 155mm that fire with ammunition at moutians. Other unit have 90mm RCL, there a show about them on the discovery channel I think?

Here in Canada the Army preforms the task, done various Regluar or Reserve Units

[copeab]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Lets not forget about the Avalanche control units of the US state and federal forest service, many of these unit have Working Artillery 1055mm or 155mm that fire with ammunition at moutians.

Dear God, 1055mm? That's more than double the bore of the Yamato's guns. Do you control avalanches by destroying the mountains?

[HorseSoldier]

At least some of them also use 106mm recoilless.

The choke point on them, as far as a scavenger sort of economy, is that I think the US government support for those programs doles out ammunition in ones and twos (or whatever) as needed. Someone in the government having made the occasional bright idea that handing out a 90mm or 106mm recoilless rifle and several pallets worth of ammunition in one go has a some very, very bad potential worst case outcomes.

[Canadian Army]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

At least some of them also use 106mm recoilless.

The choke point on them, as far as a scavenger sort of economy, is that I think the US government support for those programs doles out ammunition in ones and twos (or whatever) as needed. Someone in the government having made the occasional bright idea that handing out a 90mm or 106mm recoilless rifle and several pallets worth of ammunition in one go has a some very, very bad potential worst case outcomes.

In the early 1990’s, the US Army was out of surplus 75mm and 105mm Recoilless Rifle HE ordnance (HE rounds are the best avalanche control rounds). As a result, the Forest Service replace many of the existing 75mm and 105mm Recoilless Rifle systems with 106mm Recoilless Rifles (basically an updated, lighter version of the 105mm Recoilless Rifle, was used during the Korean and Viet Nam Wars). In December 2002, after several tragic in-bore explosions, the US Forest Service replaced all 106mm Recoilless Rifle with the 105 Howitzers.

Also each year the Washington Department of Transportation positions two M60A3 tanks just west of Stevens Pass for avalanche control.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by copeab

Dear God, 1055mm? That's more than double the bore of the Yamato's guns. Do you control avalanches by destroying the mountains?

Doesn't everyone else?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Doesn't everyone else?

Nuclear tipped I hope!

[copeab]

Also, even WWII light tanks like the M3/M5 Stuart have some use. You might not have any ammo for the 37mm cannon, but you still have 2-3 .30-cal / 7.62mm MGs, and the armor is good enough to stop machinegun fire.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Nuclear tipped I hope!

If its worth doing...then its worth over doing!

Besides, there is no such thing as too little when dealing with explosives!!!