49th Armoured Division

[James Langham]

Another unit history. It isn't finished yet but as I am no expert on US units I would welcome feedback before I go much further.

As ever nitpicks and comments welcome.

[Olefin]

I dont agree with the idea of combat losses of tanks from July 2000 to the 2001 Howling Wildnerness and have stated that before - they were going up against marauders armed almost exclusively with a collection of small arms, both military and civilian - not against tanks. A Stingray may not be what I would chose to take on a T-72 with but against a guy with a SAW or an M-16 its not even close.

As for the tanks breaking down thats a possiblity - but if so a unit like the 49th would have M88's to be able to retrieve those tanks. Tanks are precious units that MilGov would do anything to conserve and retrieve especially after the US already abandoned so many tanks in Europe. And its not like they would be running out of fuel and having to be abandoned - they are basically right next to one of the last major fuel sources in the US. So even if they werent running for some reason they would make great pillboxes - just like they were at Krakow. And then when and if you get spare parts you can put them back into operation.


Unit desertion - I dont see Texas National Guard personnel deserting instead of staying with the only unit that has a chance to take back large areas of Texas - especially with the Mexican Army fragmenting and Soviet Division Cuba (as per Red Star, Lone Star) either falling apart or heading out of the state any way they can.

So instead of staying together they go home as individuals and thus basically hand over Texas to the marauders, Mexicans and Soviets and instead of rescuing their families and their state from the occupation they get to consign them for good to it? Sorry but I know guys from the 49th - there are two chances of that happening - slim and none.

The 49th falling apart as it did is one of several reasons that Howling Wildnerness makes no sense. Especially considering that without them there goes the Oklahoma oil wells and any chance ever of retaking Texas.

And they bring home 43,000 men and no one in MilGov sends any reinforcements at all to defend oil wells and refineries which are described as vital to MilGov's power? So they evacuate multiple armored divisions with men who are experts at maintaining tanks, fighting tanks, commanding tanks and know exactly how to fight a Soviet armored division - and none of them ever get sent to the one remaining armored division in the US?

Again its why I ignore Howling Wildnerness as making no sense at all unless MilGov is somehow supposed to be a total collection of ignoramuses who somehow just throw away that collection of experienced men and allow most of their remaining military power to just waste away.

I love what you did James and its a very good read but unfortunately when you get into Howling Wildnerness timeframes it just falls apart just like the division supposedly did.

Its not specifically what you posted, its that you followed a canon that frankly I and several others feel was screwed up by what some of the authors of GDW did to take a timeline and a game and ruin it by doing everything they could do to destroy the US and turn their back on their earlier works and in the process really make the US military leadership look pretty foolish. (letting 43000 trained men go to waste in a world where such men are literally priceless is pretty much the height of stupidity after all)

[Targan]

My preference is to see Howling Wilderness used as the basis for ongoing works. So nice work, James. I like it.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

My preference is to see Howling Wilderness used as the basis for ongoing works. So nice work, James. I like it.

Agreed. Very good worth James. Obviously some effort made to make it all work and in my opinion rather successfully.

[James Langham]

While I have no intention of reopening the canon v non-canon debate, I think it's worth me setting out my philosophy on writing my articles.

* There are many areas of canon that make little sense.

* There are many areas of real life that make no sense (just read any history book).

* I think some of the events in canon are debatable to say the least.

* Canon has contradictions - see the artillery for the School Brigade where it states a unit is added at one point and that no artillery was ever added at another.

* Real historians contradict themselves too.

* Even if we all sat together with a blank piece of paper we would never manage to create a background we all agreed on.

* My writing is NOT canon, unless Far Future needs a writer (hint, hint).

* I try and make my works compatible with canon so they are more use to more people.

* My writing style is intended to be a historian writing a history, historians make mistakes and are sometimes biased, you can pass errors off as this.

* Please feel free to use my articles as starting points for non-canon campaigns and change what you like.

I believe everyone on the forum loves the game in their own way (let's be fair, to be following a game after so long says a lot), everyone's campaign is different and we can all take ideas, modify and adapt them to suit.

[James Langham]

Olefin, please don't consider the bit above a criticism, I have many issues with canon, especially in the UK but as I stated I'm trying to stick to canon (and will always note where I don't and why).

I've made a few comments to explain my rationales below.

Originally Posted by Olefin

I dont agree with the idea of combat losses of tanks from July 2000 to the 2001 Howling Wildnerness and have stated that before - they were going up against marauders armed almost exclusively with a collection of small arms, both military and civilian - not against tanks. A Stingray may not be what I would chose to take on a T-72 with but against a guy with a SAW or an M-16 its not even close.

Agreed but guerrillas or marauders don't need to take them on. It's a big area and smart ones will just be elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Olefin

As for the tanks breaking down thats a possiblity - but if so a unit like the 49th would have M88's to be able to retrieve those tanks. Tanks are precious units that MilGov would do anything to conserve and retrieve especially after the US already abandoned so many tanks in Europe. And its not like they would be running out of fuel and having to be abandoned - they are basically right next to one of the last major fuel sources in the US. So even if they werent running for some reason they would make great pillboxes - just like they were at Krakow. And then when and if you get spare parts you can put them back into operation.

fuel is ok but parts will be a problem, even if they are produced you have to get them there. Pillboxes are great if you have to hold a position but there are few strategic points to hold, they could be bypassed. Once the retreat starts, getting to the vehicles is a difficulty in itself (an M88 crew with a couple of HMMWVs and a truck might make a great campaign group trying to retrieve precious vehicles).

Originally Posted by Olefin

Unit desertion - I dont see Texas National Guard personnel deserting instead of staying with the only unit that has a chance to take back large areas of Texas - especially with the Mexican Army fragmenting and Soviet Division Cuba (as per Red Star, Lone Star) either falling apart or heading out of the state any way they can.

Once you start withdrawing that falls apart, by 2000 loyalty to a nation is probably fading fast, families are now the big thing. I do plan to expand on my thoughts here in later drafts as this is a contentious point.

Originally Posted by Olefin

So instead of staying together they go home as individuals and thus basically hand over Texas to the marauders, Mexicans and Soviets and instead of rescuing their families and their state from the occupation they get to consign them for good to it? Sorry but I know guys from the 49th - there are two chances of that happening - slim and none.

We have the benefit of hindsight as to what will happen. We also need to consider the effect of the war on people, by the timeframe here, many of the 49th will be draftees or middle aged reservists with families.

Originally Posted by Olefin

The 49th falling apart as it did is one of several reasons that Howling Wildnerness makes no sense. Especially considering that without them there goes the Oklahoma oil wells and any chance ever of retaking Texas.

And they bring home 43,000 men and no one in MilGov sends any reinforcements at all to defend oil wells and refineries which are described as vital to MilGov's power? So they evacuate multiple armored divisions with men who are experts at maintaining tanks, fighting tanks, commanding tanks and know exactly how to fight a Soviet armored division - and none of them ever get sent to the one remaining armored division in the US?

Again its why I ignore Howling Wildnerness as making no sense at all unless MilGov is somehow supposed to be a total collection of ignoramuses who somehow just throw away that collection of experienced men and allow most of their remaining military power to just waste away.

See previous post.

Originally Posted by Olefin

I love what you did James and its a very good read but unfortunately when you get into Howling Wildnerness timeframes it just falls apart just like the division supposedly did.

Thanks, I appreciate that, hopefully even if you don't use this other articles I do will be useful for you.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Its not specifically what you posted, its that you followed a canon that frankly I and several others feel was screwed up by what some of the authors of GDW did to take a timeline and a game and ruin it by doing everything they could do to destroy the US and turn their back on their earlier works and in the process really make the US military leadership look pretty foolish. (letting 43000 trained men go to waste in a world where such men are literally priceless is pretty much the height of stupidity after all)

A quick random thought here, how many could we remove with a disease outbreak on their return?

[Rainbow Six]

James, well done - that's a well put together piece and is a good read.

Originally Posted by James Langham

A quick random thought here, how many could we remove with a disease outbreak on their return?

Or by having one - or more - ships sunk during the crossing? It doesn't even need to be as a result of Soviet action - look at the Titanic.

[Ironside]

And the Titanic was brand new, not worn out and undermaintained which is the likely condition of any ship by 2000.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Ironside

And the Titanic was brand new, not worn out and undermaintained which is the likely condition of any ship by 2000.

Exactly. How many of their navigation aids would not be working? And would they be under blackout at night just in case there was that remotest chance that a Soviet sub was lurking out there?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Another unit history. It isn't finished yet but as I am no expert on US units I would welcome feedback before I go much further.

As ever nitpicks and comments welcome.

I'll tell you a bit about 1/141 INF(M). I assigned to A Co of that battalion -- but I will caution you that my experiences only go back to mid-1986. (This is, of course, well before its reflagging in 2004.)

1/141 INF(M) in mid-1986 is one of the most spread-out of all of the units in the 49th AD. Alpha and the Scout Platoon are in San Antonio, along with the 1/141's HHC. Bravo Company is in Alice, Texas, except for Third Platoon, who is in Victoria, along with a small unit (about half a platoon) of support troops). Charlie Company is in Eagle Pass along the Mexican border, again with third Platoon and a support element in Hondo.

The upshot of this is that the troops of the 1st Battalion rarely see each other except during annual drills. Except for special occasions, they don't train together during the year. Even the units in San Antonio rarely train together, with the exception of Alpha Company and the HHC's Weapons Platoon.

While the individual units of the 1st Battalion are surprisingly competent and crafty for a National Guard unit -- if you are expecting "just another Nasty Guard Unit" in opposition, you're likely to get your clock cleaned. However, due to it's wide dispersal and limited opportunities for combined training, the 1st Battalion does lack a sense of cohesiveness -- and this is not helped by the fact that, at least in 1986, Alpha Company is a deliberately overstrength company, with an extra platoon, one extra man per squad, and a small (4-man) scout element of its own.

Even in the face of a Mexican invasion, it will still take a little bit of time for 1st Battalion to operate as one, unitary battalion. In that time, Charlie Company and Hondo detachment could be lost to the Mexicans, unless they been pulled back before then. If not, Charlie's isolated position forward may caused their disintegration as a Company, with their essentially having gone to ground and their only contact with 49th AD by radio, sending SITREPs, sightings, spot reports, and the results of scouting missions. Charlie Company may in fact not be wearing uniforms, and may be using a fair amount of civilian weapons to blend in.

I feel that this sort of information might be more applicable than ORBATs from after the 2004 reorganization.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I'll tell you a bit about 1/141 INF(M). I assigned to A Co of that battalion -- but I will caution you that my experiences only go back to mid-1986. (This is, of course, well before its reflagging in 2004.)

1/141 INF(M) in mid-1986 is one of the most spread-out of all of the units in the 49th AD. Alpha and the Scout Platoon are in San Antonio, along with the 1/141's HHC. Bravo Company is in Alice, Texas, except for Third Platoon, who is in Victoria, along with a small unit (about half a platoon) of support troops). Charlie Company is in Eagle Pass along the Mexican border, again with third Platoon and a support element in Hondo.

The upshot of this is that the troops of the 1st Battalion rarely see each other except during annual drills. Except for special occasions, they don't train together during the year. Even the units in San Antonio rarely train together, with the exception of Alpha Company and the HHC's Weapons Platoon.

While the individual units of the 1st Battalion are surprisingly competent and crafty for a National Guard unit -- if you are expecting "just another Nasty Guard Unit" in opposition, you're likely to get your clock cleaned. However, due to it's wide dispersal and limited opportunities for combined training, t
he 1st Battalion does lack a sense of cohesiveness -- and this is not helped by the fact that, at least in 1986, Alpha Company is a deliberately overstrength company, with an extra platoon, one extra man per squad, and a small (4-man) scout element of its own.

Even in the face of a Mexican invasion, it will still take a little bit of time for 1st Battalion to operate as one, unitary battalion. In that time, Charlie Company and Hondo detachment could be lost to the Mexicans, unless they been pulled back before then. If not, Charlie's isolated position forward may caused their disintegration as a Company, with their essentially having gone to ground and their only contact with 49th AD by radio, sending SITREPs, sightings, spot reports, and the results of scouting missions. Charlie Company may in fact not be wearing uniforms, and may be using a fair amount of civilian weapons to blend in.

I feel that this sort of information might be more applicable than ORBATs from after the 2004 reorganization.

Thanks, that is REALLY useful info, exactly the sort of info i need, bits will make it into the next draft. Do you want a fictional mention?

Are the unit designations right? It is a mix of different sources and a couple of educated guesses.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Thanks, that is REALLY useful info, exactly the sort of info i need, bits will make it into the next draft. Do you want a fictional mention?

Are the unit designations right? It is a mix of different sources and a couple of educated guesses.

The unit designations are correct as I remember them.

At Annual Drills, we spent the better part of week simply trying to weld 1st Battalion back into an integrated unit. Even so, the "outlyers" (as we called them) had their ways of doing things, some of which were non-SOP. So you use that, instead of turning the Drill into Basic Training. Bravo and Charlie were used to operating alone, and they made outstanding scouts when you couldn't get the Scout Platoon to be assigned to a recon for you.

[Legbreaker]

We had a similar situation in the reserve units I was in. Platoons and companies tended to be able to work well enough with only a few days to a couple of weeks of training, but pulling anything more together was a long and intensive process of months.
The larger the formation, no matter what nationality it is, the longer it would take to get operational as a large unit. Elements should be able to operate effectively fairly quickly though, provided the individual soldiers knew their jobs and the small units of platoon and companies had been able to train fairly regularly in peacetime.

[Webstral]

Don't get me started on the inadequacies of the US reserve system to keep combat units in fighting trim. Don't get me started. Don't do it.